Simon Cook & Charles Day at Cannes 2023
What Terrifies You?
"FEARLESS CREATIVE LEADERSHIP" PODCAST - TRANSCRIPT
Episode 228: Simon Cook & Charles Day
Here’s a question. What terrifies you?
I’m Charles Day. I work with creative and innovative companies. I’m asked to coach their leaders and their leadership teams. To help them succeed where leadership has its greatest impact. The intersection of strategy and humanity.
This week’s episode marks a couple of important moments.
It’s the first of a series that I recorded last week at the Cannes Lions Festival of Creativity.
I have come to learn that Cannes is invaluable on two levels. First, for the people you meet and the relationships you build and develop. Many of the most important and meaningful relationships in my life have been forged and developed over the years at Cannes.
And second, because Cannes, in my experience, is where the future first appears. Not on the main stages, but in the wispy smoke of quiet conversations and afterthoughts that happen away from the spotlight, and that, if you’re paying attention, tell you that something is changing.
In the months leading up to this years festival, in a series of conversations that I had with Simon Cook - the CEO of Cannes - he and I came to learn that there are two things we both want to change.
We want to change the expectations and structure of modern leadership.
And we both want to change ourselves.
Simon is rare. A leader in a highly visible position, unafraid to show who he really is.
Together, we agreed that this year, we would share a stage at Cannes to discuss our own, very personal journeys and why we think they are reflective of a still quiet but rapidly emerging new form of leadership. One in which vulnerability is an expectation.
Today’s episode was recorded last week at Cannes in front of a group of 37 young creatives from 29 countries who had won places to the Roger Hatchuel Student Academy.
It’s the most intimate expression that Simon or I have ever shared publicly of who we are.
Our hope is that this helps to catalyze a shift across the creative industries of how leadership is evaluated and what it is fair to expect of each other - and ourselves.
Here are Simon Cook and me.
Simon Cook (02:40):
Thanks so much for being here. I met a lot of you at the beginning of the week. I'm Simon Cook. I'm the chief executive here at Cannes Lions. Thanks for attending this podcast that we are going to be recording live. And the, the man behind the podcast, which has been running for...
Charles (02:58):
—seven years.
Simon Cook (02:59):
—seven years is Charles Day, who is an expert in creativity and leadership and works with businesses and leaders like myself to coach them, not just on lessons in professionalism, but also in life.
Charles (03:12):
So Simon and I have been friends for a while. Simon's been on the podcast three times over four or five years, I think once before COVID, once during COVID. (laughs) And then we've started doing them regularly here.
And we started talking last year about doing one publicly. A few months ago. He and I were having a conversation and we've learned to really trust each other. So I don't even remember how it came up, but I started saying to him, "I'm going through this very deep trauma therapy myself." And I started describing the work. And the work is really intimate, really personal, in some cases, very challenging, painful, but ultimately transformative. So I tell Simon my story and there's a pause. And Simon says, "I'm doing the same work myself. I'm going through the same kind of trauma therapy."
And we started talking about the impact that it's having on our lives. And we said to each other, we should probably have this conversation in public.
And what's interesting is that I've always thought that Cannes is about predicting the future. That if you're really paying attention at Cannes, it's not necessarily the stuff that comes off the main stage, it's the underlying conversation that you start to see appearing during the week in various parts of the festival and that, that has been my experience this week. In terms of this subject, this question about what scares you, what terrifies you? What's the human dynamic involved in leadership? So we want to talk about the future of leadership, which means your leadership. You are future leaders of one of the most important, influential industries in the world. So the future has never been more uncertain.
The fight for democracy is absolutely real. The fight for the future of the planet, you guys know all too well and will be dealing with the consequences of long after we are gone, is real. The fight for the future of humanity with AI might very well be real. Most importantly, the fight for the kind of world that we want to live in is real. The choices that our leaders make has never had more impact on the world that we're going to live in. So, leaders that are self-aware, leaders that are conscious of their own triggers, their own trauma, are better able to guide, convince, and fight for a world that is fundamentally kinder and more compassionate.
One of the things that I'm always struck by in my work is that leaders don't often recognize the full extent of the impact and the power that they have to change people's lives. There is nothing more important than leadership in changing the future, and nobody more important to an organization than the leader. They set the tone and the direction for everything. We want to create a more creative world, because that's a more human world. We believe that people need to be empowered to be the leaders of the future. The problem is that the world is not set up that way, and this industry is not set up that way.
Too many people in positions of power still think about leadership as a hierarchical, top-down construct. They act with a singular belief that strength is everything you need in leadership. And the reason for this is really simple. And a lot of you are going to understand this instinctively because you'll have felt it. Businesses have been built by men, mostly by white men. For men, mostly for white men. And they've been doing that for years. This has created an environment in which succeeding as a woman or as a minority has been almost impossible.
And for the few that have made it, power has often come at a really significant personal cost. So we need to change that. We have to build different kinds of companies built by different kinds of people. People who understand themselves and who can seek to understand others. People who aren't defined by their gender or by the color of their skin or their background, but by their ability to unlock the potential of other people. And for that, we need a different kind of leader. We need leaders that are willing to be what we've started talking about and describing as whole leaders, human leaders.
Simon Cook (07:23):
Human leaders. Well, that sounds like a big ask. But the two of us are really here today to offer some hope that change is possible. That a more inclusive, human future is also possible, and that a different kind of leadership is possible. And we want to be able to offer you two things today. First, through the conversation that we're going to have, which is going to confront things that has made us afraid for most of our lives. It's fear-based. And in that conversation, sharing some of our personal journeys, awareness, how we've developed self-respect. And hopefully this is going to be useful not just for leadership, because you are our future leaders, but also a few lessons in life as well.
And then we're going to try and weave in some practical advice as well. A few months ago, as Charles was saying, we had a conversation about some of the work that we've been doing on ourselves. And for both of us we discovered that some of our goals were actually remarkably similar. So to understand the cause of feelings that have perhaps held us back for longer than we care to remember, and probably on a subconscious level before we've done the work. And as Charles said, as people who have inherent privilege, because we are white men, we do have responsibility, I feel, in terms of influence to try and work towards creating more of an environment where leaders can flourish because it's an environment that is inherently more diverse and inclusive and equitable, and also loving, as well.
Charles (09:02):
So our goal is to de-stigmatize vulnerability. We want to make vulnerability not simply acceptable, but desirable in leadership. I've seen this more and more in my work that the leaders who are being most impactful and most successful are the ones who, particularly in a post-COVID world, are showing up as more vulnerable. I think for too long, vulnerability has been equated with weakness. I think increasingly that's not true. Vulnerability is increasingly being equated with effective leadership and people who are able to build trust.
So if we can help to create that kind of paradigm shift, if we can help to create an environment in which that kind of leadership can come to the fore, can be the expectation rather than the exception, then maybe we can actually help to create a new kind of society, one in which the most valuable and impactful leaders are the people who are actually self-aware and self-confident enough to fully and completely unlock the potential of everyone around them, regardless of gender or race or creed or color. So let's jump in. Are you ready for this?
Simon Cook (10:11):
I think so. (laughs)
Charles (10:13):
So let's start with a simple question, which is this one. What terrifies you?
Simon Cook (10:15):
So Charles and I have, as we mentioned at the beginning, had a few conversations about this and the last time we spoke on the podcast was this time last year.
Charles (10:28):
Yep.
Simon Cook (10:29):
Where Charles asked me a question, which he has consistently asked me in every conversation we've had, which is, what are you afraid of? So in other words, what terrifies you? And my response over the years has been the same because it's a truth. What scares me the most is letting people down. And, we'll just sit with that for a second and I'm going to ask Charles to explain what you are most terrified of, and then we can get into, you know, what, what's going on behind that? But Charles, same question. What are you afraid of? What terrifies you?
Charles (10:59):
So, the thing that's always driven me in my life is this perpetual feeling of not being safe. I've never felt safe. And I started having really serious hypochondria when I was 14. I was standing on a train station platform and my heart started racing and I couldn't figure out what it was caused by and slowing it down. And from that moment until probably six months ago, there was not a day that went by that I wasn't convinced I was about to have a heart attack. And it would affect me in small ways and large.
So for instance, I (laughs) was thinking about this this morning because I was thinking as I was walking over, that doesn't happen now. I'm not, I'm not conscious of that anymore. Certainly not in anything like the same way. I used to worry about walking up six or seven stairs and I'd go, "Can I make this? And is what's going on in my chest?" And I'd be hyperconscious. So this feeling of being unsafe would start there and then it would manifest everywhere. So you'd walk into a strange environment, you'd feel unsafe, you'd get on a plane, you'd feel unsafe. I'd get in an elevator and I'd feel unsafe.
And Cannes is really tough from that environment because Cannes is filled with tiny elevators that look and feel like steel coffins. So every time I came to Cannes, I would be confronted by a myriad of situations. The flip side of being unsafe or, or one of the aspects of feeling unsafe is that you feel like people are, are either pulling away from you or judging you. And so you're constantly fighting this perpetual sense of, "I'm not worthy, but why don't you care about me? I'm not worthy of being at your dinner table. Why aren't you inviting me to dinner?"
It creates this incredible amount of turmoil, which you have to keep navigating your way through. And Cannes for years, I think, was very much about how you show up. So we were, I was laughing with somebody the other night. The old adage was, you come in and we're all phenomenally successful and we've all got complete control over our lives and everything we want to have is happening in exactly the right order and exactly the right cadence.
And I think all of us, to a greater or lesser extent, if you peel that veneer back, are just praying that people don't find out what's really going on underneath.
Simon Cook (13:04):
Yeah, and I think just to build on that traditional leadership development never asks that question either, you know. We are never really encouraged to think about where that fear comes from, where it originated, so that we can understand it, so that we can acknowledge it and notice it in the day-today. Sometimes it just manifests as a feeling that sits there.
Charles (13:26):
So let me ask you a question, right?
Simon Cook (13:29):
Sure.
Charles (13:29):
So you are the CEO of the Cannes Lions, one of, if not the most influential people here, right? You get to decide who goes on stage, who doesn't, who gets space, who doesn't, who gets a hotel room at a nice hotel who doesn't. Thank you again, by the way, for that. When you are, when you are wrapped up in a feeling of ‘I don't want to let people down,’ how do you navigate that with all of the judgments and all of the influence and all the power that you have?
Because somewhere you're going to be letting people down. You're going to have to say no to a whole bunch of people. How do you navigate that?
Simon Cook (14:02):
That's a really good question. I think from a business perspective, from a brand perspective, we have some really strong values and they're values that I subscribe to on a daily basis, but also they happen to work for the brand as well. So one of them is about neutrality, one of them is about being fair, and that's something that resonates with me on a personal level.
So I think when that niggle creeps in, when that fear arises of, I don't want to let them down, because if you unpack that, it goes to what if they don't like me? What is that feeling of abandonment going to feel like? I have to remind myself that that value of fairness is actually very helpful because it allows us to make decisions in a really even way.
Which is something that really appeals to me, but also works for us as a business because we do have so many customers with different needs.
Charles (14:58):
So that feeling of fairness isn't an artifice. I mean, it belongs to an organization that you happen to be running for now. You won't be forever. But is that a set of values that you carry with you in life anyway? So it was easy for you to hold onto that when you're having personal doubt?
Simon Cook (15:11):
Absolutely. Yes. I am someone who tends to be frustrated if there is a sense of injustice or if I can see unfairness play out before me and I've no idea where that comes from. We'll get into that work probably later in life.
Charles (15:28):
(laughs)
Simon Cook (15:29):
But it's convenient and helpful for me. But it's something that appeals and I value on a personal level and on a business level as well.
Charles (15:34):
Yeah, I think one of the things that I've found in doing my work is that we all get caught up in this fear driven dynamic, right? Hands up all of those who would say I'm afraid of something and it definitely has an impact on my life.
Simon Cook (15:50):
Every hand.
Charles (15:51):
So every hand has gone up, right? So this is a human condition. And fundamentally from a DNA standpoint, we have to have fear as part of our dynamic. Because we would've been killed millennia ago, right? If we hadn't worried about that. But when the fear becomes overwhelming, you have to find something to anchor yourself against to get you through that and pass that. Sometimes it's needs based, I have to do this, I have to go to Cannes, I have to get in elevators because that's how I make my living.
But the truer, he more reliable framework is to find exactly what Simon's described and say, who do I want to be? What really, really matters to me? What are the values? How do I want to measure my life? We're going to come on talking about success in a minute.
But I've learned to be able, through the help of my therapist, to move aside some of the trauma and some of the fear that I've experienced and be able to actually say, at my essence, who am I? I actually would love to hear this from you, but my part of my work has been through regression therapy where my therapist takes me back through not just my life, but through being in the womb and then before all of that, what was I before I existed in any kind of physical form.
And what I felt, unrelentingly and overwhelmingly was that I was just love. That's all I existed as. And I find that reference point when I'm struggling to say, who do you want to be? What is the essence of who you are? How do you get all of this other stuff to just step aside and cling onto that dynamic, that reference point.
So my whole life until about nine months ago was focused on the things that I could remember or the things that people have told me that had happened to be in my lifetime. In my therapy work, it seems pretty clear to me now that I was created as a twin, that my mother actually conceived two fetuses and that at two months in the womb, my twin died, so early that she didn't know she had twins.
And I asked my therapist, who was also a doctor, I said, "Is it possible for a woman to have conceived twins and have one of them die so early that nobody would ever have known?" She said, "Absolutely." So I've lived with this massive sense of loss.
I can never prove that that's what happened, but it feels true for me. And I was born with asthma and eczema, which are illnesses of grief. And so the feeling of, I was separated from something that mattered so much to me, so something left me, I have had that feeling of loss. Was it something I did? I'm not worthy. All of those things get caught up in that dynamic.
But hanging onto that as the understanding of what I really am about at my heart and center is love, is incredibly helpful and gets me through moments where I'm dealing with somebody who's I, who's behaving in a way that I would find really challenging. What have you found to be your core? Have you, have you thought about that? Have you done work around that?
Simon Cook (18:33):
I haven't gone back that far, but I think going back to what we were saying earlier, definitely getting back to a place where you felt safe. Because I think inherently when we arrive on this earth, we do feel safe. It’s actually the layers and the constructs and the things that are put upon us that help us to forget that.
And so, one of the things we want to delve into really is, is how do you create that psychological safety for yourself regardless of the environment that you're in.
Charles (19:06):
So, let's just talk for a couple of minutes about this question of what terrifies you. And as Simon said, traditional leadership developments is always focused on what's your ambition? And what I've learned is that it should start with this question. And I think we are slightly different age. I wish that I was where Simon was because I feel like I've lost a number of years that could have been different as a result.
But I'm grateful for the fact that I've reached this point and I can see a future, and I can invest in that. But I think at your age, if you are willing to actually ask yourself this question and really start to explore it, it's easier with help. We understand that not everybody has access to therapists. But you can start to do some of this work by yourself for sure.
You can just start to diary it. You can start to literally record. Okay, I've had that feeling today. I'm going to be honest about the fact I had that feeling today. What caused that? What was the environment? What triggered that? If you start to write it down and diary it, you'll start to see patterns emerge. it's very clear when somebody else steps back for you and helps you identify patterns and behaviors.
But I think what we both learned is you can start to do that for yourself. Do you do that?
Simon Cook (20:18):
Yeah, I definitely notice it. And it takes a lot of effort sometimes to be still enough to notice it because there's so much going on. Our lives are increasingly hectic. And so being able to create the space to just step back and go, ah, there it is, it's arrived. This is how I feel about it. And then moving into tackling it, having a coping mechanism.
Charles (20:42):
How many of you have felt angry in the last month? Yeah. So anger, I have learned comes from trying to protect something. So when we are afraid, we instinctively present anger because it allows us to hide behind the anger and it creates a wrapper around that fear.
So if you are going to start taking notes of the things that are making you afraid, and when you feel afraid, be really conscious about when you are angry. And what we all tend to do is direct that anger at other people. It's their fault they did this or they didn't do this. And you can start to bubble up all kinds of feelings.
And again, Cannes for me has been a journey of that because Cannes has a very specific food chain. There are brands and there are agencies and there are production companies and media vendors and they all have a built-in relationship with each other and an expectation of the relationship each will play with each other.
When you do what I do, you sit on the periphery of that, you're not part of that ecosystem. But I've had to learn over the years that not being invited to big dinners, not being on people's guest list for stuff is not actually a personal rejection. It's just the dynamic of the way that this particular event happens.
And what I've also been able to do by recognizing that, is I can move that feeling of being rejected and unloved aside, which for years was very palpable. But I can move that aside and I can actually experience the genuine joy that people have when they see me.
I've been so conscious this week that not only have people been nice to me, but they light up when they see me. And that is such an extraordinarily validating experience and that means so much more actually, as I've come to understand, than the things I'm being invited to and that I'm not being invited to. So that willingness and ability to start to identify your own patterns, your own behaviors, the moments where you felt that way and having the courage to say it wasn't really about that person or what was that person's behavior triggering in me? That becomes incredibly important.
Are there times where you get angry? Are there times that suddenly you go, this is just outrageous?
Simon Cook (22:57):
(laughs) Yes. I think I feel angry when I feel attacked. And it may not be a personal attack, it may just be something that disrupts a version of myself that I perhaps want to present. So I'll put it out there. I'm a perfectionist. I like who, who else is in that camp? Oh, oh, nearly everyone.
Charles (23:22):
(laughs)
Simon Cook (23:22):
Okay, great. We have a common thing. So, you know, that's a really high standard that you set for yourself, right? And if someone questions it, that can feel like a personal attack sometimes. And that can manifest itself in anger because you've put a lot of into that, you've put a lot of heart and soul into that thing to get it to a standard that you think is excellent. And so it definitely manifests itself in that way.
Charles (23:43):
You are known for being very calm and I mean, I don’t know how you show up like this in the middle of this week. I mean, I'm always struck by no matter what the mayhem is around you and you have so many demands on your time. Is that natural for you? Is that studied for you? is that a way that you've decided I want to present this or is this just who you are?
Simon Cook (24:04):
I think it's natural. Because, well, just on a very practical level, our team here are excellent and they've been doing it for a very long time.
Charles (24:15):
(laughs)
Simon Cook (24:16):
And by this stage, if we haven't got it right, there must be something going wrong.
But also, I think just in the being safe in the knowledge that nothing, nothing that bad is going to happen in the whole scheme of things and the things outside of your control, they're outside of your control. What can you actually do about it? So you can waste a lot of time and energy and get very anxious about things that may have not even happened yet. What a waste of time. Why don't we focus that time in the present instead and being present.
Charles (24:48):
What makes you anxious?
Simon Cook (24:50):
What makes me anxious? Probably not being across a lot of the detail that I would like to be. And that's a big learning for me and something I've had to really work on. And again, that comes down to perfectionism, which is related to control. And that control is put in place because you want to feel safe. If you have all the information then nothing can go wrong because it's all on you.
Charles (25:15):
So do you walk into situations constant, conscious of I have to give up control in this situation?
Simon Cook (25:23):
Yes, all the time.
Charles (25:25):
So you're constantly monitoring yourself for, am I getting too involved?
Simon Cook (25:29):
Of course, yeah. Because if you don't give up the control, you're not being generous and you're not allowing others to grow around you. You can't be the safety net for absolutely everyone. Because that's detrimental to the growth of your team, or your friends or your loved ones. What about you? How does, what makes you angry, Charles?
Charles (25:46):
What used to make me really angry was just situations where I felt somebody who should know better was not, was not creating a safe environment for me, didn't have my back. And I've learnt... And again, this is probably within the last nine months or a year, I've learned that it's not anybody's else's responsibility for how I feel.
Simon Cook (26:10):
Hmm.
Charles (26:11):
I mean, and maybe, I don't think we've actually talked about this but it's, it might be the single biggest learning I've had over the last 12 months, which is nobody, nobody is responsible for how we feel except us. And that is the hardest thing to understand, it is the hardest thing to do. The hardest thing to do.
And I think, to me, the path towards self-actualization is when you get to that moment where nobody can trigger you, nothing anybody does can trigger you. I think there might be one person on the plant who's reached that point, the Dalai Lama.
Simon Cook (26:40):
Hmm.
Charles (26:40):
Where it doesn't matter how attacked he is, nothing seems to knock him off his stride. Nothing seems to prevent him from loving the person in front of him.
Simon Cook (26:45):
You know that useful phrase, ‘It's none of your business what other people think about you,’ I find very useful. Because their version of you, their reality of you, their perception of you, that's theirs.
Charles (27:01):
And it's entirely formed by their own life experience.
Simon Cook (27:04):
Exactly.
Charles (27:05):
Right? It's their painting of you based on who they are and how they see the world, and how afraid of the world they are, and how angry at the world they are. And so, you get caught up in that dynamic and then you start to think that there's some substance to that, or some validity to that, and then suddenly you're off to the races because now you're just dealing with your own stuff. Well, if they feel that way then the way I feel about myself must be true.
So, the more you can find a reference point that's important for you, and the more you can start to accept responsibility for the life that you want to lead, the faster you get to a place where the world becomes an easier place and a more loving place, because you can actually just provide the love to everybody around you. It's a very hard thing to do. It's the right ambition, for sure.
Simon Cook (27:47):
Right, Charles. We've been in a terrified place for long enough. Is it time to move on?
Charles (27:52):
So we've talked about this on and off, but who do you want to be, right? And, and what's stopping you from being that person? And I think getting clear about this question is a really important one. As I said, the work that I've been able to do and fortunate enough to do has allowed me to understand that what I'd like to do is get to a place where I'm just living in a world in which I'm emitting love and support and kindness and empathy and understanding. I don't know that I'm going to get all the way there in this lifetime, but I'm going to make the best attempt I can, I'm going to move myself and my understanding of myself as long, as far as possible. Who do you want to be?
Simon Cook (28:26):
I think a few years ago, I probably had an aspirational idea of who I wanted to be. But, I mean, we'll get into this later, but in a way that's also a waste of time sometimes. If you're thinking about a future version of yourself, and future goals, future things that seem so far away, and sometimes we get a bit bogged down in the, "If I just get to there, it will be…." Or, "If I can just be that person in the future then I will be.…" And expending all of that energy when you could be focusing on who you are in the here and now, in the present, has been a big learning and something I try to practice every day.
Charles (29:11):
Yeah, one of the trigger words in my work is when I hear a client say, "I'm going to do this when.…" That never happens.
So, if something is important to you, start doing it now. And if it's not important enough to do it now, then maybe you should be thinking about why you want to do it at all.
So, this question, why should people follow you? You've got a powerful, privileged position that comes with a title and authority. But that's not going to be enough, right? You might get away with that for, I don't know, what do you think? A year? Something like that.
Simon Cook (28:48):
Probably.
Charles (28:48):
Right? There's a reason that people want to work for you. So why do people follow you? Why do people trust you?
Simon Cook (29:53):
I think there's two answers to that. There's the answer that you would probably hear a lot of leaders saying because it's fairly text book, because you have a vision, you have a compelling vision and a strategy that makes sense for that vision. And then, potentially, hopefully, some of those leaders would also talk about culture. You know, have an environment where people can thrive, that is inclusive, where people can do well, can be their best selves.
So, all of those things on a surface level. But I think also, coming back to the beginning of our conversation, it is about safety as well. And there was this study that we were talking about the other day, I forget where it came from, but it suggests that for almost 70% of people the person they work for has more impact on their mental health than their therapist or their doctor, which I found hugely surprising.
So, I think as leaders it is increasingly our responsibility to create an environment of safety as well as having that compelling vision, the strategy to get there. Perhaps the structure and the people that will carry you there and deliver it for you, and a healthy culture.
Charles (31:04):
And I think safety is such an important word in the creative industries. You already know this. You do your best work when you're in an environment that you can trust, where you can emotionally lean in. That environment is entirely set by the behavior and the mindset and the mentality and the ambition of the leader. If the leader doesn't care about making, creating an environment that feels safe, the environment will not be safe. You can't make a safe environment without the leader's active participation.
So, if a leader is not focused on, "How do I engender trust within the group of people that report to me?" Then everything else becomes exponentially harder and, ultimately, will either become much less than it could be, or ultimately fail.
So, as you're moving through your own evolution, your own development, both on a human level and from a leadership standpoint, consciously, constantly thinking about, "How do I create an environment that makes these people feel safe and trusted?" Which is different than, pandering to people It's not simply about letting everybody do anything they want to do. Leadership is becoming more and more complex all the time. And what I've seen in a post-pandemic world is that the old models, which used to be very much top-down, authority-driven, don't work.
There has been a conversation for five or six years about servant leadership. I hate the concept of servant leadership. I think it is absolutely non-leadership. But I've started working with a friend of mine on an idea that we're calling partnership leadership, where we each bring our best selves to the table. It's not an equal partnership. Somebody still has to make the tough calls. Somebody has to step into the fire and protect the rest of the organization. But the idea of partnership leadership is really powerful.
But it speaks to everything we've talked about, which is you can't be a really great partner if you don't understand yourself, your strengths and your vulnerabilities. And once you do that, you can start to create an environment that is safe.
Simon Cook (33:01):
Question for you, Charles. You asked about my leadership for this company that I run, your leadership and your influence I would say is more of a sideways one. You're quite often talking to your peers within our industry, coaching them, giving them advice. Why do they follow you?
Charles (33:17):
It's a great question. I think, and I, I was sitting here thinking you were going to ask me this question, and I thought I'd better have an answer for that, so—
Simon Cook (33:26):
(laughs)
Charles (33:26):
So I think instinctive reaction is there are probably two reasons. I think first, I have found a way to see myself as their peer. And that, that has actually been a journey in and of itself because I grew up with a very powerful father, hierarchy was all within my life. I watched him use his power. He ran a couple of big ad agencies. And I was conscious of the fact that he was very much—
Simon Cook (33:52):
Hmm.
Charles (33:52):
—a top-down driven person. So, I grew up because I think in a large part the relationship with my father, I grew up with a real fear of older, senior, established men.
Simon Cook (34:02):
Hmm.
Charles (34:02):
And one of the things I'm really proud of is that I don't have that anymore. I mean, I walked up to Martin Sorrel the other day, who was as intimidating as it gets, and Sir Martin, to be respectful, who's, who has already come on the podcast, he's coming back on the podcast in two weeks. I don't have that fear anymore. So, I think people recognize through body language, through tone of voice that I'm just right there with them. And then, I think the other reason is because they genuinely believe that I honestly and authentically care about them and their development and their self-improvement. That I don't have a personal agenda other than if I can help you be better, if I can help you unlock your potential, then the impact you can have on the people around you will be my reward.
I've sat in many, many rooms with leaders and I've been able to say one thing which has helped them to see themselves in a situation differently, and then I've watched in real time when they've taken that into their company, and I watch the entire mood of the company change. You can watch it wash across a company, because they suddenly realize the person on the stage saying this thing has suddenly changed. Suddenly brought something to the table that they hadn't perceived before. So, that becomes not just rewarding but very powerful from my standpoint.
Simon Cook (35:11):
I think if you're leading a business you have the luxury of time to do that. With what you do, well, in your day-to-day work, but more specifically with the podcast that you have, you have to establish that level of safety incredibly quickly if you're going to have an open, honest, vulnerable, useful conversation. How do you do that?
Charles (35:30):
Well, I think again, as I know myself better and better, I'm more comfortable with who I am. And I think all human beings just read that kind of natural behavior. And so, I've always had the ability to make people trust me. Again, I think because I don't bring a bunch of different agendas. But I do think that as I've gotten to know myself better, and therefore have more confidence in who I am, and I'm more willing to say, "If you like this, great. If this works for you, great. If it doesn't, I'm okay with that too. I'm not going to change." I think that's part of what I can bring to the table.
Simon Cook (36:03):
Okay.
Charles (36:04):
And then lastly, and this is a big topic too: how do you define success? So, Cannes is the epicenter of having very clearly defined measurements of success. First of all, you guys are successful because you got selected to be here, right? So you've already defined success as being better than your peers in some regards. How many times do people get up on stage? How many awards have they won? What jobs have they been offered this week? I mean, there's so much stuff happening all week that helps you figure out where you are in the hierarchy of this industry.
How many Lions have you won? How many Grands Prix? How many gold, silver and bronzes? I mean, they're stacked up on people's walls a home, right? The number of Zooms I do where they've very carefully staged their Lions and their other awards behind them.
Simon Cook (36:54):
(laughs)
Charles (36:55):
My honest insight, and we've talked about this, is that that is a very narrow, very limiting definition of success that is not very likely to make you happy towards the end of your life. There are a number of articles that have been written, ostensibly by a palliative care nurse who has spent a lot of time with people in their last days. My mother died last summer and I spent the last week of her life sitting at her bedside and watching that experience happen.
And the articles say, and my experience was the same, which is nobody, nobody in the last days of their life are reflecting back on how many Lions they won. Not one person cares about that in that window. They care about the relationships they've had. They care about did they discover as much about who they are and who they could be as possible? Did they spend their time doing things that were really meaningful to them? That created memories and experiences that mattered to them?
So, it's important to have ambition. You have to have intention in life. And I'm going to be the last person to sit here and say, "This stuff is absolutely not important." But you have to place it in the context of the larger picture. Who are you? Who do you want to be? What's going to matter to you when you look back at your life? What are the relationships that matter to you?
I realized this yesterday. This is my 20th time at Cannes. Thank you. I'm not sure that's worthy of applause.
Simon Cook (38:25):
(laughs)
Charles (38:26):
But I appreciate that. I've realized two things: I have never been nominated for an award, and I have never received an award of any kind. I keep coming back, and I keep coming back for this reason, because we would never have met if I hadn't come back. We wouldn't have this developing relationship if I hadn't come back. One of my closest friends in the world is sitting in the corner over there. We, for years, we lived in the same city, and then for years Karim and I only met at Cannes, right? Every year, our relationship was reinforced and developed through Cannes.
So, I've become increasingly clear about the fact that I'm not at that dinner, I'm not at this thing, I'm not part of that group, I'm not celebrated, I'm not on the front page. I'm not even on the back page. Can we do something about that?
Simon Cook (39:15):
(laughs)
Charles (39:16):
But I have built some of the most important relationships in my life, and my entire coaching career was built on a relationship that was forged at Cannes. I would not be sitting here today doing what I do, knowing what I know about myself, were it not for Cannes. So, I'm very clear about why I come, what success is to me. And I think it's really important that you start at your age to think about really what's important. What matters to me? Who do I want to be? How am I going to define my life? What does success mean to you? What is success for you?
Simon Cook (39:47):
I think I'm learning to find success in the everyday.
We've talked a lot…. I guess the through-line through this conversation is success is not something that you're going to arrive at one day. If you're thinking about personal success, Charles and I were discussing this the other day, that can quite often come down to having daily satisfaction. That idea of satisfaction being success rather than some very lofty and faraway aspiration is a much healthier place to be. I also didn't realize Karim was sitting behind me. Hi, Karim.
Charles (40:23):
(laughs)
Simon Cook (40:23):
(laughs) What do you think about that? The idea of satisfaction being the ultimate success?
Charles (40:27):
Yeah, I think that's right. There was an article in Harvard Business Review a couple of weeks ago I read, which talks a lot about redefining our expectations of success and that, the world has really become kind of pretty predictable and narrow in how it thinks about success. So I think that satisfaction, from the journey, from personal growth, from the relationships we build with others, from deepening those relationships, I think that that is a really powerful metric. You have to find what's important for you. I don't think either one of us would sit here and tell you this is how you should define success. But I think challenging yourself now and perpetually to make sure that you're spending time doing things that ultimately really are going to matter to you in the short, medium, and long run become very, very important. Any final thoughts as we wrap up?
Simon Cook (41:13):
Question for you, as part of the work that you've been doing, you mentioned that when you regressed really far back, you got to yourself as an entity of love, pure love. How do you manifest that on a daily basis?
Charles (41:25):
When I find myself sinking back into a sense of unfairness or unjustness, I have an eye position, actually, that I've developed. Part of the work that I'm doing, I think you're doing as well, is about neurological reprogramming. We're literally trying to rewire our brains to understand and process things differently. So I have an eye position and when I find those feelings creeping up on me, I go to that eye position, and I feel that sense, and a lot of the stuff just drops away, and I'm able to see the person or the cause of the lack of safety benevolently and kindly, and realize life is much more than this moment.
Simon Cook (42:08):
Mmm.
Charles (42:09):
And that is not who I want to be. I want to be about that.
Simon Cook (42:12):
Yeah.
Charles (42:12):
What about for you?
Simon Cook (42:14):
Very similar, actually (laughs). As we talked about in the past, I think being conscious of it. And that's another through-line for this conversation, just being very aware, developing self-awareness so that you can catch it and tackle it in the moment. And then secondly, this week you're all going to be exposed to everything Charles was saying, that aspiration, that glory, moments on stage, people who are very hungry to win awards. And that's fine, but I think it's about having healthy aspiration but daily satisfaction. And maybe that's a good place to end.
Charles (42:45):
Yeah. So I want to thank you for being willing to have this conversation publicly at the epicenter of your year, in a very, vulnerable place for you to do this. I don't know of many leaders who would've had the courage to do that. So I am really grateful to you for your friendship, your partnership, your courage, and your willingness to be part of something that I think we both agree is really important as a catalyst for how we can evolve the future of leadership. So I really want to thank you.
Simon Cook (43:21):
Well, thank you, Charles. As we said earlier, you do a good job of making it easy.
Charles (43:25):
My pleasure.
Simon Cook (43:26):
Thank you very much.
Charles (43:27):
I don't know if we have time for questions.
Speaker 3 (43:29):
I think we have. Yeah. What are the core values that led to your success?
Charles (43:34):
What are the core values that led to our success?
Speaker 4 (43:39):
Yeah, in life or in general.
Charles (43:41):
I think... It's a great question. The desire to be... I think I have a relentless curiosity for what comes next and I feel like I'm slightly dying if I'm not pushing the world forward, and so I don't know whether it's a value or an, an instinct, but I feel like I have to keep finding out more about who I am, and then that journey catalyzes everything else.
I think this journey that we're on, this part of our journey, is about courage, and being willing to confront our fear, and then we get to find out do we move on or do we go back and have to keep doing it. So I think that personal curiosity is really at the epicenter. What about for you? What's your value set?
Simon Cook (44:14):
Well, one of them we discussed earlier, fairness, creativity, which you would expect, hopefully. (laughs)
Charles (44:24):
(laughs)
Simon Cook (44:25):
I think creativity because as we know and as we've seen throughout this week and will continue to see, the most creative work comes from being uncomfortable and through innovation. And so I think you absolutely getting out of your comfort zone and, and forcing yourself to try new things, usually when there's a limitation or constraint, that's where the, the best creativity comes from. So that's something that is a value that I hold, but because I'm shown every day how effective it is in a business sense as well. Lots of hands.
Speaker 5 (45:02):
What is one advice that you would've given to your younger self?
Simon Cook (45:04):
It goes.… Thank you for the question. The advice that I would give to my younger self, how young? (laughs)
Charles (45:12):
(laughs)
Simon Cook (45:14):
It probably goes back to, to a point I made earlier. I spent far too much time worrying about things I had no control over, and worrying... and spending time worrying about what people think of me. And as I said earlier, that's none of my business. And so those are the two things I would say to my younger self, because then I'd free up time for my younger self to do more interesting things. Charles?
Charles (45:36):
I really think it would be what makes me afraid and why am I, why am I afraid, why am I so afraid of this? And really interrogate that with courage. And again, if I didn't have access to a therapist, to find a friend that I trusted that I could have that conversation with. I mean I spent so many years just living with fear, so many years fighting my way past it, and there's almost nobody in my past who would know that from an external standpoint. You wouldn't look at me and go, "Well, that guy's perpetually afraid," right.
Simon Cook (46:11):
(laughs)
Charles (46:12):
Not in any way. But I did, I spent years, and years, and years covering that up, and I would like to have started understanding, asking myself these questions much earlier, because I might be close to Simon's age with some of these answers rather than at this point. So it's brave... and you have to find some quiet and some self-reflection, and keep asking yourself. And I would also say I spent way too much time thinking that everything I left was just as a result of this life, this life experience. And regardless of whether I was a twin or not, there are so many other aspects to what makes us afraid, I think, that I would've liked to have been less judgmental about the things that happened in this life and more curious about what else it was that had caused this.
Speaker 3 (46:54):
Okay, last question. I wanted to ask how would you balance out your external validation, your inner validation, and being able to pay the bills, and how your own personal validation—
Simon Cook (47:06):
Internal validation versus external validation?
I think your point on internal versus external validation is very important. I think through all of this, what we're describing is getting comfortable developing more of a lens for internal validation rather than seeking the external approval in many ways. And then how do you balance it all? I think carefully, and it has to be values based. I think that's why it's good to ask some of these questions because if you can get back to the core of who you want to be as a person and what you stand for, then that is... Same for businesses as well, guiding principles and tells you where to focus your energy. Charles, as the expert in this, tell us what you think (laughs).
Charles (47:49):
I mean there are two dynamics at play, right? One that gets in all of our ways is I have to make a living, I have to provide, and so the money part of the equation becomes a really dominant, powerful factor. And then there's the, the other question about who's, who's going to love me and who's going to care about me in this situation. What I would say is as you get older, the consequence of choices becomes much greater. So if at my age, I decide to stop doing this, and start doing something else, and it doesn't work, that's going to cause a problem. When you are younger, the great advantage you have is that you haven't gotten used to a lifestyle, you haven't built a whole world around debt or expectation. You don't have to stay at the Majestic every night.
So I would take advantage of the flexibility that you have right now to put yourself in different situations and find for yourself what's the balance that I can live with between the things that I really want to do, and the money that I want to make, and the kind of quality of life that I want to have. You know, Scott Galloway started talking about the fact that people keep saying find your passion, he thinks that's bullshit. He said, "People who tell you that are already billionaires. There's some truth to that, but I also think that the opportunity to explore, fully cognizant of the fact that there are multiple factors here that I need to understand, it's almost like spending a little bit of time doing self-research by putting yourself in situations and going, "I'm drawn to that. I could put up with less money because I really care about that.
You know what? No, I'm sorry. I really find I have to make a certain kind of living in order for me to feel comfortable enough to do that." And, as a last point, the through-line of all of that is to constantly, constantly be challenging yourself with how do you define success, because if you just keep looking at your friends and your peers, and say, "Oh, she's above me," or, "He's moved ahead," and I have to chase that, there's no conversation about whether that's really important to you or whether you're just afraid. And all of this really comes down to how much you're willing to confront your fear, and move that aside to find out who you really want to be, and then build your life towards that.
Speaker 3 (49:57):
Thank you. Plus you said you didn't win a Cannes Lions, but I think today you won the hearts of all these guys.
Simon Cook (50:05):
(laughs)
Speaker 3 (50:05):
So thank you so much.
Charles (50:07):
Oh, thank you.
Speaker 3 (50:08):
You are officially awesome.
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