Tim Mapes of Delta
How do you feel?
"FEARLESS CREATIVE LEADERSHIP" PODCAST - TRANSCRIPT
Episode 229: Tim Mapes
Here’s a question. How do you feel?
I’m Charles Day. I work with creative and innovative companies. I’m asked to coach their leaders and their leadership teams. To help them succeed where leadership has its greatest impact. The intersection of strategy and humanity.
This week’s guest is Tim Mapes, the Chief Marketing and Communications Officer for Delta Airlines.
Delta employs over 90,000 people and puts 4,000 flights into the air every day. As Tim points out, a Delta plane is in the air every second. It is a high-pressure, highly visible job.
Behind that job, is a person.
Early in our conversation, it became obvious that Tim is very willing to look at himself honestly and at his own behavior with self awareness.
I asked him where that came from. And he said, simply, counseling.
“I think the way counselors and therapists ask questions about how does that make you feel? Not just tell me of the circumstances, but how did you feel? How do you boil that down to the quintessence of that emotion? Where's that coming from?”
Invariably, in my experience, it ties back to an experience you had as a child that is being triggered by something in adult life, but it's evocative of a feeling that you either liked or didn't like or were scared of as a child.
Leaders are human too.
It’s easy to forget that simple truth in a world in which leadership itself is too often deified. The more impressive the title, the more we imbue that person with mystical powers of knowledge and wisdom.
Leaders need to earn the respect of the people that choose to work for them. And re-earn it on a regular basis.
The problem is that over time, successful leaders often tend to create a one way mirror that shows them the world they want to see, And the people that work for those leaders quickly learn that challenging that image is a ticket to nowhere.
The act of building that mirror is usually not one of arrogance or hubris. More often, much more often, it comes from a need to protect ourselves from a feeling that is too difficult to confront.
The willingness to ask ourselves how we really feel, and the courage to explore that question honestly, is the beginning of a journey that replaces the mirror with a window into the lives and feelings of others.
And from that beginning, anything is possible.
Here’s Tim Mapes.
Charles (02:50):
Tim, welcome to Fearless. Thanks so much for coming on the show.
Tim Mapes (02:52):
Thank you for having us. It's great to be with you here this morning.
Charles (02:55):
When did creativity first show up in your life? When are you first conscious that creativity was a thing?
Tim Mapes (03:00):
As a thing? Certainly as a commercial thing, watching Bewitched, as a child, the TV show had a prominent character, Darren Stevens, who worked at an ad agency. And I remember being fascinated that A) he could wear a suit to go to work, because I came from humble beginnings and didn't really envision much of a life wearing a suit. B) he got to play with art boards at work and have martinis with Mr. Tate in the middle of the day. And then at the end of the day, he got to go home to Sam, a beautiful wife. And I was like, "Well, damn, that looks pretty good. I don't know how I could ever get into that kind of field." But that idea, that communication and this mix of art and language and whether it was music or poetry or copy, could not only sell things, but persuade people to behave or think perhaps differently, always fascinated me. So, you know, I'm sure I was playing with Tinker toys and building blocks and all the things kids play with unconsciously, but that was the first time I really started thinking, "Wow, there's, there's something to that kind of discipline."
Charles (04:02):
Where did you grow up?
Tim Mapes (04:03):
I grew up in Chicago, for the first 10 years of my life, and then my family for a job relocation, moved to Atlanta. So I've been there since 1974.
Charles (04:12):
Where in Chicago? I spent 20 years in Chicago.
Tim Mapes (04:14):
I was born in Lake Forest Hospital—
Charles (04:15):
Oh, wow.
Tim Mapes (04:16):
...and then grew up in the northern suburbs, Libertyville, Gages Lake, Zion, Waukegan, moved around a bit.
Charles (04:21):
Such a special town.
Tim Mapes (04:22):
That's… Midwesterners are the best, right? I mean, it's funny because as a Southerner now, we have so much in common with Midwesterners, you can still meet people—
Charles (04:30):
Yeah.
Tim Mapes (04:30):
...and almost invariably know they're from one of three to four states in that region. It's a special quality.
Charles (04:36):
Yeah. There's a sensibility. I used to say to people, "I'm just a Midwestern guy with an English accent—”
Tim Mapes (04:41):
Yeah. (laughs)
Charles (04:41):
...Right? There is a real sensibility about the place, which I still miss, actually. How did you express yourself growing up?
Tim Mapes (04:47):
I would like to believe, personality-wise, certainly wasn't fashion. It, it was not athletic prowess. I think... So one of the interesting things about moving at the time period that I did, moving into new groups where you needed to break into a friend group at some interesting ages. 10 is a pretty important age in somebody's life and it was during that time I was leaving Chicago and coming to Atlanta. And I think in my experience, what I learned right away is, I needed to be a different person for different groups of people that I met, and I didn't have the confidence to just be myself. And so I became a chameleon of sorts, or at least adapting to new people, new constituents with what I felt or sensed I needed to be to fit in or to break in with those groups. And I think in that way, expression, but, but never, uh, from an inward sense of confidence, like, "I've got this thing in me that's needing to get out and I'm gonna express it this way."
Unfortunately, I think it was the opposite, which was, "I'm looking out at this world that I want to be a more active participant in, and, and bringing back what do I need to do differently or behave, or how do I need to behave to kind of fit in or to break in?"
Charles (05:59):
Does that show up today still in any way?
Tim Mapes (06:01):
Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, it's valuable as a skill, as a service business where different people need different things from us interacting with media, interacting with other corporate customers, things like that, that make it easy to say, "Okay, this is the me that needs to be the me for this moment."
But at the same time, the flip is, who the hell are you, right? Do you have a true north? Do you know what it is you stand for? And I have to be honest, I don't think it was until I met my wife when I was around 30 that, that that started to be more clear, because she is so clear about her values and her commitments and her conviction that I started to question it in myself, and started to say, "Wow, I've got to get stronger in some of these areas."
Charles (06:43):
Where are you on that journey now?
Tim Mapes (06:45):
Oh, very much (laughs) still the beginning, I think. I think we have two sons who are 23 and 26, and I watch in them a confidence I never had at that age. And I'm extremely proud of that, because I think what we've successfully created is, an environment and a circumstance that enables them to have the confidence to just be themselves. Some of it's human, right? Some of it is just, we all want everybody else to like us, despite all the people say, "Oh, I'm comfortable with so and so," not like, I can't find that very credible. But I'm still very early in the process and I'm 59. So (laughs) yeah—
Charles (07:21):
(laughs)
Tim Mapes (07:22):
...very much a work in progress but you know, still, there's still hope. I still have hopefully another 30 or 40 years to get it right.
Charles (07:27):
Yeah, we're very much members of the same club. how do you anchor yourself at the moment? What's your reference point now? Where do you gravitate towards in terms of who you want to be?
Tim Mapes (07:36):
Again, my wife. I... you know, I always think of it like ripples in a pond. The stone goes into water and the ripples go out. The, the true north for us is she and me as a couple, then our two kids, and as a family. And then it spreads out, whether it's aunts or uncles or great friends or neighbors or whatever that may be. And I try to just get time each day, so I get up every morning at five o'clock and run. And it's in those moments of just your brain emptying out simply because something is physically demanding of you, that you get these flashes and that's all they are. It's a thought that if you forget it or miss it, it just shoots by like a meteor. But it's in those moments that I get everything from great creative ideas to something that I may have said to somebody that I could have said better or more sensitive.
But also it helps me just get a sense of, "Okay, I'm grounded in this. I've done something for me right out of the bed (laughs) that I then can focus on everything else for the rest of the day and feel like I've kind of rewarded myself in a way, even though it's punishing, if you will, to get up and run.
Charles (08:37):
Now, when you find those moments where you're conscious, you know, "I could have done that differently or maybe I could have been more supportive or just provided the critique in a different way," do you go back and address that? How, what's your response to that?
Tim Mapes (08:47):
I try to. You know, it's funny, I am well aware in my life of the hierarchy of people around me. I have the pleasure and the privilege of working with some extremely high profile people, and I know how it feels if they acknowledge your presence, my presence. I know how it feels if they're complimentary or expressing appreciation. And I always try to remember that when I'm interacting with members of our team.
There's an example here while we're here. There, there's a person who's doing a lot of really important logistical work that is completely thankless. And, and I pulled her aside yesterday and I said, "Look, I just really want you to know that what we're all experiencing here and the ease with which we're going about this fairly intense four or five-day period is a hundred percent a reflection on the advanced work you did and the important things you've done."
And I hope that made a difference. You know, I, I think it would've, because it's a person who would've done all those things anyway and been completely comfortable not being thanked, but it just makes me feel better to just kind of build a culture of appreciation and gratitude.
Charles (09:52):
I would imagine she'll carry that with her for the rest of her life, both consciously and unconsciously. I can't imagine that she won't. I think it's such an interesting point, Tim, actually, because I think the impact that people have as leaders, especially as they become more prominent, is, is badly underestimated by most leaders.
I remember a situation when I was running my own business some 15 plus years ago now, and a woman that worked for me came up to me in the hallway and said, "we've got this situation with a client. What do you think we should do?" And I said, "We should do X, Y, and Z." And she looked at me sort of strangely, and I said, "Doesn't that make sense?" And she said, "No, it makes sense. It's just, it's exactly the opposite of what you told me to do a year ago."
Tim Mapes (10:25):
(laughs)
Charles (10:27):
And I said, "You remember what I told you to do a year ago?" And she looked at me like I was crazy. "Of course I remember what you told me to do a year ago."
So, I think your point about just that moment, what did that take you? 30 seconds? Less than a minute to tell her?
Tim Mapes (10:39):
Yeah.
Charles (10:40):
That, she will never forget that.
Tim Mapes (10:42):
Well, I hope so, and thank you for saying that. I had a similar circumstance where I was midway kind of in my career progression. And I was in a meeting with a very senior person at Delta, senior vice president, I was a director. And she was convening a group and she was raising her voice and, and kind of being very adamant about an issue. And at the end of the meeting, I felt I knew her well enough to walk up to her and I said, "Hey, you don't have to yell. You know, you're a senior vice president. Everybody in that room not only cares about what you say, is paying every bit of attention, so there's no reason for you to ever raise your voice." She didn't talk to me for a year.
After a year she called me and she said, “I've never forgotten what you said." So I think even people, you can have a blind spot, right? I mean, great ideas, winning ideas can come from anywhere. If you're a jackass about it. If you're at the top of an organization and you're not inviting feedback, even negative feedback, you're not getting it. And, and feedback's a gift. It's what allows us to make better decisions and to grow. So it's interesting you had a a year in between that, something like that too.
Charles (11:44):
Yeah. And I think sometimes what part of the challenge of that, isn't it, when you, I mean, that's essentially a coaching dynamic that you're providing the people that work for you, which is an incredible gift. But sometimes in that situation, it can be hard for the person on the other end to receive it.
And so I was talking to somebody yesterday about how do you create an environment in which people that work for you feel able to receive your feedback, but also willing to give you yours? How do you, how do you receive feedback from other people? What's the environment you try to create for other people?
Tim Mapes (12:10):
So my wife and I, every date night have something we call more of, less of, don't change. And we try to do date night once a week, because the importance of this isn't just the more of, less of, don't change, it's the frequency of having a discussion that's dual directional. What do you want me to do more of? What do you want me to do less of? What do you want me to never change? Then what do I want you to do more of? What do I want you to do less of? And what do I want you to never change?
And if you're doing that with a degree of frequency, it's like an engine in a car. It never gets too far out of tune or out of balance. And I think it's equally true in relationships, but among the things I try to do is create an environment with everybody that I'm around, because you quickly learn at the scale of what we do, no one person could possibly be on top of all of that.
In fact, my kids sometimes see things that we do pro- professionally and commercial and they say, you know, "What was that?" Or, "How did you think about that?" And I was like, "That, I never even saw that." And they're like, "Why? Aren't you kind of responsible for all of that?" (laughs). And I tell them, it's like, "You’ve just got to realize like this is a place that's doing business at 500 miles an hour in 60 countries with 200 million customers."
Thankfully, we really work to hire amazing talent, but then the culture is how do you ensure that they feel empowered to make mistakes? Not just to go out and be good, but to go out and be so good that you may overstep in, in a stretch to try to do something great. What happens then? Do you show support? Do you build trust by saying, "Hey, I understand exactly what you were trying to do in that instance."
And obviously if somebody's pulling the rope the other way from the company, that's a different issue. But I mean, we're, we're adept enough at our hiring that it's really then more about the culture and ensuring people feel a part of a winning organization, because that... I think everybody wants to feel a part of something bigger than themselves and it's working. And then they put forth discretionary effort in a way that they wouldn't otherwise if you have a boss who acts like they don't care.
Charles (14:02):
I want to come back and talk about management of businesses at scale, because I feel it's absolutely fascinating topic. But before we do, where do you think... I mean, you strike me as remarkably self-aware and self curious and that you're constantly investigating yourself and working to improve. Where do you think that came from? Where in your background did that come from?
Tim Mapes (14:20):
Counseling. You know, I think from either my upbringing to different circumstances that have affected me in life, the ability to speak with professionals, you know? People, the crazy people aren't the ones in counseling. The crazy people are the ones who don't think they need counseling. Because just look around us. How the hell could you live in this planet and not understand that It's helpful to be able to speak to a professional about a different issue?
And, you know, I think the way counselors and therapists ask questions about, you know, how does that make you feel? Not just tell me of the circumstances, but how did you feel? How do you boil that down to the quintessence of that emotion? Where's that coming from?
Invariably, in my experience, it ties back to an experience you had as a child that is being triggered by something in adult life, but it's evocative of a feeling that you either liked or didn't like or were scared of as a child.
And, I think it's so healthy when you come out of... not to get overly spiritual or religious, but it's kinda like going to a Catholic confession. It's like, it's all right if you get run over by a bus right afterwards because you're kind of free of your sins.
Similar with, with counseling, right? It's like you, you come out of that with just a different perspective on the very things you went into it with, but, but a person who's objectively able to, to kind of reflect and ask and probe and take you to a place that you wouldn't otherwise get. And then to get to do so with a partner.
So my wife and I go together sometimes and talk about different things that are each of ours or that are ours as a couple. I think it's incredibly healthy. I think there's still lot of stigma unfortunately and I try to be outspoken about the value in that.
Charles (15:56):
So this is fascinating because this whole week at Cannes for me has been seen through this lens of self-awareness. Particularly maybe I'm just oriented this way at the moment 'cause I'm going through it myself, but particularly through the lens of male vulnerability, which is exactly what you're offering and revealing and describing. I've been going through some really intense trauma therapy, not because I've had anything traumatic happen to me recently, but because I came to understand that all of your trauma is still all of your trauma. So whether you're struggling with a relationship with your father from 55 years ago, or in my case, that plus my mother dying recently, going through the experience of trying to understand where this came from.
So just to add to your thinking, one of the things that I've learned for me is that I used to focus entirely as you've described, on the stuff that had happened to me in this lifetime. And that narrative becomes somewhat limited after a while.
And what I've experienced, this might not be true for everybody, but what I've experienced is, that there were other things that happened to me before birth and also generationally, that created at least DNA imprinting in... from my grandfather to my mother to me that have also contributed. And when you certainly in my case, I would say the truth for me has been understanding that there are other dimensions to this, in addition to the experiences that I had in my lifetime, has been incredibly helpful to be able to sit back and say, "Okay, so now I understand better where this comes from." Now, we can do some work on actually rewiring the way that our brain perceives us, us and our relationship with the world.
Tim Mapes (17:21):
Yeah. You know, and my wife and I talk about a big T little t trauma, right? There's—
Charles (17:25):
Yeah.
Tim Mapes (17:26):
...war in Ukraine and then there's being slighted by a parent or a relative. And there's still trauma, right? And they have a residual effect and we all go through many of those things.
I remember, you talking about male vulnerability. The ad council used to have a wonderful spot, it takes a man to be a dad, if you remember that.
Charles (17:44):
Mm. Yeah.
Tim Mapes (17:45):
And I remember when our second son was born, he was 16 days old and he was running a fever. We had to take him to the emergency room and I'm holding a baby that his head would fit in my hand and his legs would stop at the curve of my arm. And within five minutes of walking into the emergency room with him, they said, "Okay, you hold him. We need a catheter, a spinal tap, and a blood sample."
Charles (18:06):
Oh my God.
Tim Mapes (18:07):
And he's 16 days old and and he's this tiny little baby. And, they're saying, "You hold him." And I think about all the macho, you know, yoked up guys acting like they're men. Bullshit. You know, you're a man in that moment.
Charles (18:19):
Absolutely.
Tim Mapes (18:20):
...because you're about to do three things, none of which you want to do. And when you think about self-reflection and, and vulnerability, we're all just people, right? We're all just trying to go about this. And I think marketing and advertising sometimes is suffering from this overblown... I was reading this article today about some of the influencers on social media and things. Certainly, they're presenting an image that everybody else looks at and says, "Oh, that must be wonderful," or, "That must be them. Cool."
You're a human being. And, if those people are automatons, maybe they're not affected by something in their life, but the reality is, you're probably overcompensating for fear of somebody coming to really realize the other part of you.
And that's why I think art and expression and, and certainly music, people who are able to express… Adele, the album she wrote about a breakup. I mean, when you can take negative and turn it into art, to me that is one of the most beautiful things in the world.
Charles (19:11):
Yeah, I think I agree with that completely. And when you can give permission to other people to say, "It's okay, I get how you're feeling. I feel the same way sometimes."
Tim Mapes (19:18):
Yeah.
Charles (19:18):
We don't have to be, we don't have to be brave about this. We're allowed to be vulnerable about it.
Tim Mapes (19:22):
Yeah.
Charles (19:22):
How do you define success within all of that context?
Tim Mapes (19:26):
Peace, happiness, tranquility, none of which I experience a hundred percent of the (laughs) time. It's just fascinating to me. I've really thought about this a lot while we've been here. You're in this beautiful place interacting with just amazing people and brands and companies and leaders and issues, and I'm still drawn to, well, "What's going on back home? What's happening with our dog? What's happening at my company? Am I missed? Am I not missed?” (laughing) You know, stay gone.
And so I don't have peace. I have this churning all the time and I haven't yet cracked the code on what I need to do to just get to stillness. I'm approaching, as I said, I'm 59, I think about, you know, retirement. And you start thinking about, "Well, if I'm out of this, would I be more peaceful or would I then be troubled by the absence of all the stuff that has brought a structure to my life since I was 13 in terms of having a job and things like that?"
So, you know, it's a journey, right? We're all on this journey. Everybody goes about it differently and there's twists and turns, but to me success would be peace. And, and just, and I don't mean just the absence of a frenetic pace. I mean like spiritual, mental, physical peace.
And I guess was it Sid Arthur, the book by Herman Hesson that talk, you sat by a stream and listened to the babbling brook and tried to find peace. I'm going to have to find a babbling brook. I think so.
Charles (20:45):
We're all living longer. Do you think you'll retire, retire? I mean, do you... I... Obviously, you won't work at Delta forever, but what do you think of as the next phase?
Tim Mapes (20:53):
I get asked that a lot by my kids and my wife and friends. I really don't know. People have said board service, people have said private equity and VC and companies. I don't know.
I've also been told that if I'm not doing anything, I'll be drinking vodka out of a bottle at 10:00 AM because your brain is so hot for so many years. And that's not an appealing (laughs) concept to me. So, but I really don't know. And I, it's, it's kind of... I just back to this point around just listening, trying to absorb the universe and self-reflect and what is bringing me the peace that I seek? What is challenging that peace? I think that's going to be the determinant of the what it is. The why it will be is it brings me some sense of peace and pleasure as opposed to it's the next chapter in a longer life, hopefully.
Charles (21:39):
And having that reference point, it strikes me as being really empowering, but I'm also, I hadn't thought about this before, but it's also really interesting. Somebody whose job is as demanding and full-on as yours, trying to find time to even think about and explore even a little bit, what might I want to do next must be really challenging.
Tim Mapes (21:54):
It is. And it's the trap, too, right? I mean, so in addition to the marketing side of our business, I've got the PR and the corporate communications and, you know, aviation and U.S. aviation in particular is quite of interest to members of the media. We have passengers who misbehave. Occasionally, we have employees who experience different situations, planes break, different things. So we're in the media all the time.
And, if you really think about it, we operate over 4,000 flights a day. There's a Delta plane in the air every second of every minute of every day. Holidays, everything else, which means there's Delta employees on that and Delta customers and families and lives. And so if it's Saturday at 3:00 and Ed Bastian texts me, he's looking for an answer instantaneously. So it stops being a job and it really becomes almost a vocation and a calling because we've believed very much in a servant leadership where the CEO is at the bottom of the pyramid pushing resources and inspiration up to the 90,000 people at the top of the company, who are interacting with customers. And for that reason, we're always on.
And that's a cool thing, but it's not something that's easily sustained over a very long period of time. And I've been there 31 years. I haven't always had the level of responsibility I have. But the dynamics of a calling to serving others and the importance and the nobility in that I think is the very thing that gets us up every day, but it's also the thing that makes you ready for a glass of wine at the end of the day too.
Charles (23:14):
Yeah, regular listeners to this podcast will know that I've stated quite strongly an opinion about servant leadership, but I won't bore you with that. We can maybe offline that for a different time. I think it would be a really interesting conversation.
The size of your job as you've just so insightfully and provocatively described it. I know it's a big job. I hadn't thought about it quite in the terms of 24/7 always on. What's that job like? Most of us are never gonna have a job like that. What's that job like?
Tim Mapes (23:42):
So, you know, your emphasis is on leadership, of course. I think what it requires is very quickly coming to realize no one person can deal with all of this. And one of the things I share with our team often is, that none of us is as smart as all of us and there then becomes a reliance.
So when I was in my twenties, I led large projects at ad agencies and I worked at BBDO, which is what led me to ultimately come to the Delta business. And Delta bought the PanAm assets in 1991 and overnight, went from this domestic airline to an international airline. I happened to be in the right place at the right time. But at that time I was running large projects. There's quite a difference between running large projects and running large teams of people. And I was a dreadful manager and a dreadful leader, as I said, up until the point I think that I met my wife and then had kids and you start like... You just change your— I did anyway, changed my— I wish I would've been better earlier.
But you come to realize the value in others as opposed to the value in yourself. Ad agencies tend to have this belief, this (laughs) coming from Wieden+Kennedy where at least at BBDO was like, "It's all about your individual contribution to a whole, but it's about talent," right?
Teams in companies certainly of our size just really quickly become almost like in the military where it's gotta be, leaders are charged not with taking things top down and driving it into the organization, leaders are tasked with, what do you need, foot soldiers? What weaponry? What protection? What guidance? What maps? And how do we get you that information, that inspiration to say, this is a fight worth fighting and a cause worth battling for.
And so I came quickly to the belief that simply out of the scale, I call it the Vs, the variability, the velocity, the visibility of what we do. You quickly come to the realization we need to hire the very best people we possibly can find and do everything we can to invest in their development and in their inspiration and in their feeling of comfort, that this is in fact a place you wanna spend the rest of your life professionally. Because it's gonna require of you that you're gonna devote a large part of your life, on weekends, at nights, whenever the calling may come. And that's all about discretionary effort. Every one of us has a choice. I say I get to speak to a lot of our frontline employees and I tell them, "We saw greatness in you, that's why we hired you. But every day you get up, you get to decide how much of your Delta-ness you're gonna bring to Delta today.
Charles (26:00):
Mm.
Tim Mapes (26:01):
And if you doubt our commitment to you, guess what we should expect from you back to Delta and our customers more importantly? So it's a two-way street and and we talk about it as a cycle of, we invest in you, we try to free you up to be at your best, whether that's as a flight attendant or a pilot or a PR person or an ad agency rep, account management type of role. And, and ensure that they are mentally freed up to be able to bring their best to the brand, to the customers, or to the dynamics of the job that they perform.
Charles (26:29):
Does this ever get overwhelming on a personal basis?
Tim Mapes (26:31):
Every day. Every day. Every day.
Charles (26:34):
Does it scare you?
Tim Mapes (26:36):
Yeah. Yeah. It's not every day, it scares me, but it's out of control (laughs) every... Mario Andretti had this great line. It's like, "If you think you're under control, you're not going fast enough."
Charles (26:45):
Yes, yes.
Tim Mapes (26:46):
He was a great, famous F1 driver.
Charles (26:47):
Yes.
Tim Mapes (26:48):
And it's funny because we're having some conversations right now with Zach Brown and McLaren and got to spend time with Lando, one of their drivers last night and it's such a great line, right? But at the end of the day, if you're going 200 miles an hour, you better have control of that car.
Our planes go 525 miles an hour, right? And so the volume of it is epic. And there's almost a reason to kind of check yourself to say, "I don't have control over all this. Our team doesn't even. A passenger could still behave a certain way, a plane could still have a mechanical issue even after all of our best efforts.
So you adopt a mindset that is just, "I need to be agile, I need to be nimble, I need to be fresh and ready and energetic to go at this." But most days I go in with three to five things that I'm gonna try to do that day. And most days I go home with... at night with those three to five things undone because something totally different has happened.
I've been there 31 years. None of those 31 have been anything like any of the others. We've had 9/11, we've had chapter 11, we've had leading the industry on operational performance, and then we've had people complain and write letters of dissatisfaction. And it's all a part of the, the journey. But it's, uh, it's a lot. No doubt.
Charles (27:59):
To that point, actually, you've lived through the most extreme times of our lives, 9/11 pandemic. I mean, things have absolutely just cratered your industry. How do you activate in those moments now you've gone through them a number of times? What are... what has been consistently true that you've found?
Tim Mapes (28:14):
The value of being really clear on your values?
Charles (28:15):
Mm.
Tim Mapes (28:17):
You know, so 2019 was the best year in the history of Delta Airlines. 2020 was the worst year in the history of Delta Airlines. In fact, there was a point we were losing $100 million a day, which is pretty damn difficult to do, and it's almost impossible to sustain, right?
And that was after a year in which we made more than $6 billion in, in profit. So like 90% of our revenue went away in a span of about a three, four week time period. And what you can do in that is maintain perspective to just say, "All I can do is the best I can do." And you cling to the certainty in the foundation or the cornerstones of values, which for us helped us through that.
Ed very quickly said, "We're going to take care of our people. We're going to take care of our future, and we're going to take care of our capital, our cash. And those three things are going to guide us through that." And he was the one who made the decision, if you recall this, to maintain this center seat being open—
Charles (29:08):
Yeah.
Tim Mapes (29:09):
...at a time when every dollar was out there to affect the future of the company. And I believe this, he never stated this, but I believe it to be true. He would rather our company cease to exist as a values-driven, great place that does important things in people's lives than sub-optimize the value at the highest level to make money in the near term.
And that sounds so radical, but I believe it to be true because you wouldn't make... You took a third of our sellable inventory out to protect the people who needed to fly, because at that time there were medical professionals, people traveling to see family members or try to. We were providing an essential service as defined by the federal government, but it was never about commerce and capitalism. It was about values-driven decision-making, which I'll never forget. Incredible lesson.
Charles (29:58):
Yeah. And from a consumer standpoint, I'm vividly aware and remembering that situation. We used to fly American Airlines a lot and they were very quick to go back to filling their planes up. But I was struck by the decision that you guys made and it said something.
And when we had a choice going forward about going to a new destination and Delta was one of the choices, I know we chose Delta because we felt there was a company that had the kind of community exactly as you've just described. So it was a big bet, but it paid off, I think.
Tim Mapes (30:24):
Well, first of all, thank you for the switch and the business. You know, the interesting thing is, I, I really believe it wasn't... We... by the way, we gained five share points coming out of that. And the fastest growing segments that we now sell are premium yielding, big business tickets, Delta one or first class, things like that. But it was never, "Oh, I got it. Here's an angle, let's do this because on the outside or the other side of this, it's going to be that much better economically." It was in that moment to protect our people. Our own employees were afraid.
You think about a flight attendant and a pilot, they had to go to work and interact with people. And if you remember at first, it was everybody was wearing gloves, nobody was wearing a mask. And then we learned, "Oh my God, it's in the air. It's not... " and then gloves were irrelevant, right?
And so throughout that, our people were out interacting with hundreds of millions of... Well at that time, less than hundreds of millions of people. But nonetheless, that decision to free up and create some space on the planes became a way for our own employees to feel safe in their own jobs. When their spouses are saying, "What do you mean you're gonna go fly on an airplane with people?" Right? it was a remarkable time. And, and there will definitely be books. There already are things being written about. It's just incredible.
Charles (31:29):
Yeah. I think to your point, I say this to lots of people, but I think the entire world is suffering from undiagnosed post-traumatic stress—
Tim Mapes (31:36):
Yeah.
Charles (31:37):
...syndrome as a result. And most of it will be undiagnosed and untreated for the rest of our lives. And you're absolutely right. I think we have forgotten the level of trauma that we all experienced in that first year after it happened. And, you know, getting on a plane and going out would've been literally an existential threat, especially in the first six or nine months where you thought, "I... This might cause me to die—
Tim Mapes (31:56):
Yeah.
Charles (31:57):
...by myself in a hospital, being unable to breathe."
Tim Mapes (32:00):
Yeah. Exactly right.
Charles (32:00):
I mean, it was pretty terrible. I want to go back to the point you were talking about earlier, which is, how do you create an environment that is based around trust at this kind of scale that you're working on? You've touched on a couple of points, but I'd love to hear more about your thinking about how do you actually motivate people who you will never meet, to lean themselves into a fundamentally a service driven business and in ways that start to change the paradigm for the rest of the industry?
Tim Mapes (32:23):
Well, I focus on the why as often as I am able, not the what. So if you're a flight attendant, you have a role. If you're a pilot, you have a role. If you're a PR or an ad person or whatever, you have a job to do. And, and we hopefully hire the very best at what they each do. But the opportunity is in the why, because it does come back to discretionary effort and alignment. Because when you have 90,000 employees in 60 different countries on behalf of a brand, the opportunity in our mind exists to share with them the nobility in serving others.
And all too often Americans want to be served. We don't necessarily want to serve others. And I'm not taking shots, it's just, if you look at some of the Asian cultures or the sophistication of European service with white tuxedoed waiters and certainly the warmth and the caring of Latin America and South America. You know, what we try to bring forward is, is the idea that it is noble, it's fun, it's incredibly important to serve others.
And we look for people who are selfless and willing to do so. So former educators, former firefighters, former members of the military and the armed services, first responders, because they come with an attitude of selflessness and teamwork and collaborative and collegiality and then try to present a backdrop that says this culture, this company focuses on these core values, dignity, respect, inclusion, the valuing of diversity, and a host of others that you shouldn't have to make a choice between seeing the planet and saving the planet. We have to have a solution for people in that.
And what you find is, those get people excited. Yeah. The job is a flight attendant. What's fascinating to me is you have a plane going 500 miles an hour, 30,000 feet above the earth surface, and customers are concerned about how fast their Diet Coke makes it to them, right?
The reality is, if you ever have an aircraft incident, the training that those flight attendants and those pilots have had, either in the military or through Delta service or the professional expertise of the people that we have on the ground, they're world-class. And yet you don't ever necessarily see that. You then say, "Well, is this person happy or warm and caring and welcoming?"
But we have flight attendants every day who save people's lives doing CPR on planes. We have people every day, every day save people's lives. And that's never in the headlines, right? And it frankly doesn't need to be, but the level of professional expertise, if you're a flight attendant, you're a bartender, you're a life supporting expert in, in things like CPR, but you're also a safety expert.
How do you get 200 people out of an aluminum tube should you really need to? The training. And I've done it, I've gone to the training. It is unbelievable. It takes 16 weeks of training to be a specialist in our reservation sales group. and you're talking to somebody. A lot of people get angry, or, "What do you mean it's that many sky miles or the fare is that high?" What they don't understand is the level of professional commitment those people demonstrate every single day trying to get you on the flight you want at the fare that, that you're willing to pay for.
So we try to flip the whole thing that it isn't like this is going to take a lot out of you to serve others, it's gonna fill you up to serve others. I think it's, I forget the name is it... So I think it's oxytocin. That is a chemical that's released in our brains when we do nice things for others. It's the whole better-to-give-than-to-receive. It's a physical thing that actually happens.
And so we, I occasionally use that. I always try to not get it confused between Oxycontin and oxytocin, which is why I took a second right there.
Charles (35:45):
Different effect.
Tim Mapes (35:46):
Yeah, different effect, different dynamic entirely. But that idea that we're the good guys, right? We believe no one better connects the world. Keep climbing is all about whatever we did yesterday, we have an opportunity to be better tomorrow.
And one of the things I say to a lot of our frontline employees is, "You have the power every day when you're on a plane." And the typical flight attendant flies four segments a day, four flights, "You're probably interacting with 800 people. What proportion of those 800 are telling stories about your service at dinner that night or the next week, or telling their friends?" because you have the power to do that.
We've all had those interactions with an employee where you're just like, "Wow, that person was incredible." And we'll never get to a hundred percent of all that, but they do have that power and sometimes it's just helpful to remind them of that.
Charles (36:30):
What kind of people do you look for? I'm always conscious that really great companies are particularly astute at casting the right kind of people. What are the characteristics of the people you are looking for?
Tim Mapes (36:38):
Big WE, little me. People who are comfortable and actually excited about performing in a team environment, because no one person is an airline. This is a team sport. It's the ultimate team sport, right? Somebody's got to fly the plane, somebody's got to fill the plane up with gas. Somebody's got to put the catering equipment on or have taken the reservation or boarded it an airport customer service. So it's a we, it's not a me.
And if you... It's funny, I was talking to a group of college kids here yesterday about like how did... They were all asking, "How do you get into a company like Delta?" And I said, "It's one of the hardest writing exercises you'll ever do because at once, you have to sell yourself without ever using I or me. Because every letter that comes into me that has... " and I count them and it's 45 I/me references and two we or you references.
And I said, "You ought to do copywriting 101, right? It's just, it's the emphasis isn't on you, the seller, it's on the we, or the you the buyer, Nike brilliant work that Wieden's done, celebrate the athlete, right? Don't talk about the shoe. And so we look for big WE, little me people.
Charles (37:38):
It's amazing, isn't it, how few people still understand that? In an industry devoted to selling, they end up talking about themselves all day long.
Tim Mapes (37:44):
Well, and in our business, right?
Charles (37:46):
Yeah, it's crazy.
Tim Mapes (37:46):
I mean it's one of the, it's fun to be here and it's tedious to be here because there's a lot of overblown egos in this business with people you know, who think they're all that. And you know, it's one of the things that's cool for us because the titles sound kind of fun, but the ultimate chief marketing officer at an airline is the customer, because they get to tell—
Charles (38:03):
That's true.
Tim Mapes (38:04):
...whoever they want about anything they want and they get to talk to the media and everything else. So we do our best to shape messages, but at the end of the day, our orientation is branding from the inside out. It's do 90,000 people know why we're here and that what they do matters? And then celebrate their efforts and, and their successes and [inaudible] the attention.
Charles (38:20):
Yeah, it's such a good point. And it's such a total experience. I mean, a flight that's 45 minutes late, but you had amazing service on and the people seem to care about you is an entirely different experience than one that landed on time where the flight attendants couldn't have cared less.
Tim Mapes (38:31):
It's a hundred percent right.
Charles (38:32):
In fact you were just irritating. You're just a nuisance to them.
Tim Mapes (38:34):
It’s our highest NPO score, our NPS scores are often the output of an incident on a plane that customers expected to be dreadful and became something other than that purely as a result of the efforts of Delta people.
Charles (38:47):
Yeah, the human aspect of flying, I think is massively underestimated. It really is. What's your relationship with fear?
Tim Mapes (38:54):
With fear?
Charles (38:54):
Yeah.
Tim Mapes (38:55):
Hmm. Makes you uncomfortable. Makes me uncomfortable. I think it's a natural part of creativity and risk taking. You know, there's... It's interesting as an airline, as you might imagine, you don't take risks with safety. Safety is job one. So we don't ever take risks in the operation of the airline. But creatively, some of the best things we've ever done have been things that made me uncomfortable when, when we were talking about them. And it's just a byproduct of you just don't know. But that's why it's so fun to be here, this celebration of creativity.
I was telling this group yesterday, creativity isn't art and you know, poetry and imagery. I mean it's of course those things, but it's, it's creating something out of nothing. And at its best, it's about creating brilliance out of a blank sheet of paper or a digital screen (laughs) that's empty, right? That to me is incredibly exciting.
But there's also a few people have writer's block or you know, "Oh, what if I do this? And it's awful." And the other question though is what if you do it and it's amazing, right? And it changes people's lives, or it changes the dynamic or it changes in industry? And, you know, creativity to me accounts for and reflects innovation and, you know, astronauts go up into space, some of them don't come back, right? There's been trial and error and things that some of the biggest advances in human history have been at the expense of human lives at times. So for us it's about a context of risk-taking, providing for safety, always job one, but fear can be a great motivator and it could also be something that keeps you from being able to act. So it's a, it's a double-edged sword.
Charles (40:31):
If there was one thing the creative industries could improve, what would it be from your perspective?
Tim Mapes (40:38):
I think directly knowing the effect it has on commerce. All of my advertising classwork, when I was in college was about the artistry and, you know, the big 60 or the brilliant digital thing or... And you know, for us right now, it's the exact opposite. Whether that's AI or whether it's all these technologies and marketing automation, you went from needing a particular brain type, right, left brain, highly rational that we need today in a world where a long time ago it was all about creative and artistry and creatives in an agency were like at this lofty level, and the agency would build the business around those people. They were gods, right?
I think now gods are data scientists and people that you'd never put in front of a client. And you know, it's just a fascinating different dynamic. And it's fun to see that change, but it's daunting as well, certainly as someone long at this, because it's, it's truly a transformation. That's an overused word, but it is the stuff that allowed you to succeed yesterday, it's still a part of it. Clearly the quality of the work is what makes Wieden so amazing and such a valued partner of ours. But the understanding that this isn't art, it's commerce, and that this art that we're creating has got to pay out and have a return on its investment. I always say the best clients are former agency people and the best agency people would be former clients because you really see the whole egg, the yin and the yang in that way.
Charles (42:04):
Last two questions for you. How do you lead?
Tim Mapes (42:08):
I try to be active. I don't always succeed in that. We have just so many competing demands for our time, but actively, ideally, visibly with people and we try to get out in the operation, not just for my team of a few hundred, but for all 90,000 people of Delta.
I try to be optimistic and inspiring and conveying people to people that what they do matters. I'm awful at execution. Thank God we have wonderful people around. That's another quality. Know what you're not good at and hire the people that are good at that. So I'm dreadful at execution, but I'm good at ideas, I'm good at big picture, kind of, wouldn't-it-be-great-if, types of things.
And then try to include as many people in that as you possibly can because to your point earlier, you never know what you may do or say that could rub off on somebody that they retain and it helps take us to a different level at some point down line.
Charles (43:01):
And as you look to the future, what are you afraid of?
Tim Mapes (43:04):
I'm afraid of being irrelevant. I'm afraid of retirement and having gone from busting my ass for three decades at an amazing company filled with incredible people to, (laughs) to being forgotten and irrelevant - not to my wife and not to my kids and not to my friends and the people I've built a relationship with. But it's kind of cool to be over here and to be introduced, to go speak at a panel or to have college kids want to hear what you have to say. And that's all going to go away at some point. So actually, I try to maintain some balance and my wife certainly helps me in that way. Take out the trash or you know, go walk the dog or fun things where it's just an equilibrium. But if I had a fear and if I look out over the coming years, it's to, to trade something that I love for something that amounts to irrelevance.
Charles (43:54):
There is a wonderful quote, I think it's by TS Elliot that I'll offer you, "To make an end is to make a beginning. The end is where we start from."
Tim Mapes (44:02):
It's a brilliant statement. I'll try to remember that.
Charles (44:05):
People that I really respect said to me that you would be collaborative and self-aware and you are exactly as advertised and I really appreciate your time and your honesty today. Thanks for joining me.
Tim Mapes (44:13):
Well, it's a privilege. Thank you for having me today.
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