Justin Thomas-Copeland of DDB, North America
Embracing each other's differences.
"FEARLESS CREATIVE LEADERSHIP" PODCAST - TRANSCRIPT
Episode 169: Justin Thomas-Copeland
Hi. I’m Charles Day. I work with creative and innovative companies. I coach and advise their leaders to help them maximize their impact and grow their business. To help them succeed where leadership lives - at the intersection of strategy and humanity.
This week’s guest is Justin Thomas-Copeland, the CEO of DDB, North America. He’s a dynamic, charismatic leader with a long history of building successful businesses and creating change.
It would be great if the state of society allowed us to end the story there. But for all of his many, many accomplishments, Justin’s appointment generated attention because of one characteristic that is incredibly rare among CEOs of major companies. He’s black.
In fact, rare might be an exaggeration. For instance, the Fortune 500 contains four black CEOs. That’s down from its all-time high of six. If the leadership of Fortune 500 companies simply reflected American society, there would be 67.
It is beyond absurd, beyond outrageous that we even have to say this out loud. Things need to change. And Justin Thomas-Copeland is a change agent.
“I don't think you spark change by trying to be the most popular person. You spark change by being genuine and having the right intent. If you've got the right intent, even if your decisions are wrong, people will trust you, because they know that you're coming from the right place.”
We talk too often about leaders guiding their people through periods of change. But in a business fueled by its capacity to unlock creative thinking and innovation, change is not a temporary state but a permanent one. A company needs to be different tomorrow. It needs to know more and understand better. It has to have a higher tolerance for risk, a greater appetite for exploration and deeper self awareness. And that needs to be true every day.
And what makes all that work is showing up as a leader with what Justin describes as the right intent. A set of values and beliefs that withstand the short term set-backs that get in the way, and which overcome the skepticism, the suspicion and the fear that greet most leaders who are trying to lead systemic change.
The lack of diversity among the senior leadership of American business is a systemic issue.
Changing it will require determination and trust at an unprecedented scale. It will require leaders who have the right intent.
What’s yours?
Here’s Justin Thomas-Copeland.
Charles: (02:36)
Justin, welcome to Fearless. Thanks so much for coming on the show.
Justin Thomas-Copeland: (02:40)
Thank you very much for having me, Charles. Appreciate being here. It's great to be with you.
Charles: (02:44)
When did creativity first show up in your life? When were you first conscious of creativity as a thing in your life?
Justin Thomas-Copeland: (02:50)
I think I was about eight years old. My mother worked in advertising, and it was my first visit to the ad agency. I remember it just blew my mind. I didn't really understand it, right? My reference at that point was art lessons, or drawing, because you're eight years old. Drawing. And you see people drawing and talking and you have no real understanding at eight years old what it all means. But I just knew it. It had a different energy. It looked like it was fun. But they were grown people just walking around. There were free biscuits, as well. That was also a given.
And there was free cans of drink. It was like, who does that? When you're eight years old. But I think just seeing that energy in the agency, as an eight-year-old. And then, that year, I got my first card, birthday card, from the agency. So, my mom asked the art director, you know, on a piece of card, folded, like massive card with a caricature of myself.
And that was when it was a real thing, because then it was in my home. And I used to love drawing and it looked like me, but it was a different style. And that's really when creativity was a real thing, in terms of personal to me. Previous to that, I grew up being a nerd, trying to draw different styles, cartoon styles, self-portraits. I wasn't very good, ever.
I always liked art. I still like art. But I always have an eye for trying to be a painter or a drawer. Then as I grew up, graffiti ticked the boxes. It’s always been a thing. And part of my family is quite heavy into music. Music and that type of creativity. One of my brothers is a photographer. So it's always been in and around our family, different types of creativity. And then in business, just entrepreneurs. We've a lot of entrepreneurs in my family.
So people that just make it happen, have an idea, and the next minute they're just doing something, making something of it. It's always been in and around my life, but that personal creativity, I would say was going into my mum’s ad agency, and then that year getting my sort of weird birthday card.
Charles: (05:17)
How did you express yourself growing up?
Justin Thomas-Copeland: (05:20)
Great question. I've always had a lot of energy. I've always been vocal. I'm the youngest of three boys, right? So if you're the youngest of any family, all the youngest children out there, hopefully you'll identify, you've got to make a decision. You're going to have a voice or they'll take it from you.
So, I expressed myself in a number of ways, through sports, through my energy, my opinions. I was sort of very expressive, pretty fearless as a youngster. I've got scars all across my body to prove that. I was very sociable. Loved being around people. So I had a wide range of friends from different parts of… I grew up in south London, in Battersea but different parts of Battersea. So I had different, almost cliques, if you will. I never sort of hung my hat to one set of friends.
So I had different ways of expressing myself when I was in different groups, which is kind of cool. I quite like that. And like any sort of child, random behaviors, random decisions. I was a happy child. '70s in London was a great place to be.
Charles: (06:46)
It really was, yeah. I speak, I speak from personal experience. It was a great place to be.
Justin Thomas-Copeland: (06:50)
Yeah.
Charles: (06:51)
Did you experience racism growing up in London in that environment?
Justin Thomas-Copeland: (06:55)
Yeah. Definitely. The funny thing was, I grew up… Battersea was really mixed, right?
Charles: (07:01)
Yeah.
Justin Thomas-Copeland: (07:01)
So we had all colors, ethnicities, religions. But yeah, there was racism. It was a weird time in the '70s. I remember like the Silver Jubilee. It was 1977, I believe, right? I would've been five. And I can remember, you know, everyone having a good time, but I remember there was tension on some of the tables.
And we lived in a very mixed environment, but there were tensions with some of the neighbors. At school, there were families that were overtly racist. And it was okay. It really was okay. Your parents would tell you, "Don't do this. Don't do that." You would just get the, I think P&G now call it, “The Talk.” But you would just be like, "Just don't do these things, and don't go to certain areas, because they're dangerous."
So yeah, there was racism, quite overt. And then even growing up, like being sixteen to eighteen and I got my first car and being stopped and searched and things like that. But you would just get used to it. Like it's no big deal. My friends have always been mixed. The family's very open-spirited, so we don't really focus on the negative. You know, I was taught, in my family, focus on the positive. So yeah, there was racism, but that's not my problem.
Charles: (8:30)
What was the professional path you chose coming out of college?
Justin Thomas-Copeland: (8:34)
So, during college, I did an internship for the European Community, and it was for a year. It was in Belgium. And I was working for one of their training exchange programs and the short story was, I went in there to do applications development and run this program. They put me in a room, a very small office. They told me that there were a bunch of students from Europe that wanted to do internships in Belgium, and there were a bunch of Belgium students that we got to find internships in Europe, like an exchange program.
And then there was literally a file of companies, IBM, Monsanto, big brands, Mercedes, who were offering internships either in Belgium or in Europe. And I had to literally manually match-make. Immediately my mind's thinking, system’s thinking, we've got to solve this problem.
So, I built a system to do that and put all those files into this database system. And then I got into marketing because then I had loads of time on my hands. And so I would then start to do email marketing, and sort of sell Belgium or sell Monsanto, IBM, or Mercedes or whatever internship was being offered. And then I was being invited by universities to present. I didn't know I was doing marketing then. But that was the first time I got into sort of in person presentations, you know, giving presentations at universities, to business students. And that's when my career trajectory really changed, because a lot of the people coming out of my course set up their own sort of data companies and businesses and went into management consultancy. And I sort of went into marketing, because I just love that more.
I love the human contact. I love business. Like I said, I've had a family of entrepreneurs around me. So, you know, I was familiar with sort of business and, you know, closing deals and hearing uncles and people talking about sort of the next month. So, understanding that sort of business energy, I quite liked it and I found it. I wasn't looking for it. And that sort of set me on a different trajectory.
And so I started my agency life, about a year and a half after I graduated, or maybe a year actually. And haven't looked back since. That was 1994.
Charles: (11:05)
So, I want to jump forward to the present day, and the job that you've got now, that you took a year ago. The job of running an agency the size of DDB at a regional level comes with a, I don't have to tell you, with a massive amount of responsibility.
Justin Thomas-Copeland: (11:17)
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Charles: (11:17)
It's challenging in its own right.
Justin Thomas-Copeland: (16:08)
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Charles: (11:18)
The announcement of your hiring was, was made through another lens as well, which is your skin color, right? I mean, the fact that you are black is a very central part of the announcement.
How do you carry that, the weight of that? Where does that sit for you in terms of the challenge of this job?
Justin Thomas-Copeland: (11:39)
You know, throughout my whole career, Charles, I'll tell you, I have always embraced my differences, right. My mother, I would see that she was in an environment where there's only one like her, right. The only black woman, only black person, a woman at that. And I knew that, going into the industry, it was going to be a little bit like that. I'm the youngest of three boys. My first brother, so the middle son, has always been in marketing, client side for maybe 20 years, and now he's agency side. I saw like what it was going to be. And we just embrace our differences.
We have a very wide set of friends. Our family is multicultural. So for me, coming into the industry, I've been around people that have embraced differences and flourished and been very happy. And so it was not a thing for me.
It became a thing though when, as you go up in your career, and the responsibility of just your job - forget your color - but just your job. It gets more and more, it gets more and more real, and I take responsibility, like most, very seriously. So, you definitely start to think about not just what you're doing, but who you can affect, who you can help, who's looking at you. And not at all from a vanity point of view, but people are coming up to me as I'm getting more senior, and wanting to understand and learn and I'm sort of realizing that there's a role I play here. And I embrace that role.
I don't see being black as a challenge or as a weight on my shoulders. I really don't. I embrace differences. I've been brought up seeing different people in my own family embrace their differences and flourish. I don't see why I can't do that in a business context. I don't put any sort of limits on myself. Definitely I've been in situations, and I probably will 'till my last working day, where I know it's a thing. I know it's material to the discussion or it's material to how someone's interacting with me, because I can sense it, I can feel it. But that's okay, right, because again, I don't ever make that the feature. Like we try and go past that. I think we have to, you know, understand that being black or whatever your specific difference is, is, I think, a point of strength. Being a female, LGBTQ, whatever it may be. I think, you know, able, disabled, it's a point of strength.
So, I've always been of the mindset that I'm not going to make that a thing. I'm going to see past it. I want to be good at my job. I want to be good at my team. I want to feel like I should be in that position and I'm doing the best I can to be as good as I can in the position. And if I can use my place of difference to be a strength for the good of the team and the job, great. But I won't let it become a thing and trade off it because I just don't see life like that. I never have. I've been brought up in too much of an open way to do that.
But I definitely got some feedback when it was announced of, you know, how's that going to be? And it's fine, you know. It's absolutely fine. There aren't many like me, you could say, but at least there are a few like me. We're just like everyone else I think. Like are we good at our jobs? Are we good for the business? Do we care about creativity? Do we care about, you know, a brand like DDB and catapulting it and making sure it's as relevant today as it will be in 10 years? Those are the things that I really want to obsess about in this job or in any job that I do. Am I of service to the role I'm meant to be doing and not making a point of color, or whatever it might be.
Charles: (15:31)
Yeah. I mean, I'm not sure what word to use other than frustrated, but… I mean, uh, more than that, I guess, but the frustrating part for me is I have never once had to consider putting my race or my background or my color in my bio, right. It just wouldn't happen, right. Here's a white middle class male. Okay, nobody ever says that. And the fact that you even have to acknowledge it is clearly tragic and wrong. How do we get to a point where we don't have to identify leaders by the color of their skin or make a big deal out of the fact that, oh, this person looks different, so therefore we should pay more attention to that? How do we get to the point where we're not paying attention to that stuff? What has to change?
Justin Thomas-Copeland: (16:08)
I think the industry and every industry, not just the marketing ad industry, but every industry just has to really think from the ground up how it brings in different people, how it nurtures different people. I think there's a generational shift happening anyway. I have three children, and you know, they're at different ages, 24, 20 and 13. They're growing up much more multicultural. Their experiences are much more mixed. That's going to help, because as they grow up, they feel they can, more than I did. I think though that in some industries, we have to try and accelerate that because I think it's about not just what's happened in the last sort of 12, 18 months, but I think the world's moving on.
I think people genuinely, genuinely want to see the humanity in each other before anything else. And I love that, right. And I think we need to reflect that in business, right. I love that clients are asking for teams that are mixed and where are these ideas emanating from, and you know, is it representative, and you know, it's coming through in the work. And I think clients in our industry, clients have a role to play, agencies definitely have a role to play. I think we also need to hire people in, and there are a lot of people like me, and we need to really look at diversity much broader as well, bringing in different, you know, socioeconomic backgrounds, professional backgrounds, educational backgrounds.
Does everyone have to have a higher education degree? I don't know, Charles. I'm not sure they do. I've met some supremely intelligent people that have never set foot in a university, and are self-taught and are brilliant. I mean, brilliant minds. But I think it requires everyone to do their little bit, and to just focus on the person and the humanity. It sounds really idealistic, but I think the younger generation, I can see it, they are feeling like they can much more than I did. And I think that's really important, because it also has to do with you feeling like you are able to, you know, compete on the merits of what you know, what you can bring to the table. And I think that should never go away, You got to bring something to the table.
But it's going to take the efforts of everyone. It's not going to be one cohort, one group. It's got to be everyone committing to just opening up and trying things. We want group CEOs and chairmans to be trying things and getting crazy on succession planning and things like that. You know, it's in all areas that we can start to open up, and have a truly sort of inclusive, and I think inclusion is a really important word. Inclusive industries. Ad industry, music industry, film industry. I mean, the list goes on. Fashion industry. I think it's really pervasive in business, and we need to get to it.
Charles: (18:58)
I couldn't agree with you more. I mean, ad agencies have been certainly not uniquely bad, but I think, you know, a good example of bad about this over the last 25 years or so. I mean, John Seifert at Ogilvy every year would make a very big public point about saying, "We're not good enough. We keep trying to say we're going to change and we haven't changed." And he didn't see it. I see that you've talked about a strategy of “no duplicates.”
Which I thought was really interesting. Can you just talk a little bit about what that means and how practically that starts to change the balance?
Justin Thomas-Copeland: (19:28)
Yeah. When I arrived here, my first briefing was around people before the work. I really believe in people, then the product, and then the money should follow. So it's about the people, first two weeks, one of the things I said to everyone, all of my leadership team, was that we've got to start thinking you're in a position of change. You can change, you’re empowered to change. And you've got to start to think about DDB, looking and sounding and being a brand that is even more diverse and inclusive. And we shouldn't be afraid to be making those sort of deliberate steps. We should embrace it, right?
And within the first six weeks when we checked back with the leaders and looked to who we had hired in, there was just a lot of expected people and profiles. Good people, good people. And I had conversations, and some of them were quite tough because they were quite new, right. And I think when it's coming from a black guy, I think it has another sort of energy to it.
But I work some fantastic people, so all very open-spirited. And a few of us were kicking this around like, "What do we do? We need a strategy that really says what we mean, but it’s got to be so immediate and so simple." And so we were writing stuff down, and you know, you get down to a sentence from a paragraph, and try and get to, I think they say, less than seven words. And it was actually our Chief Creative Officer and our Chief Strategy Officer who came up and said, "You know what, what about, “no duplicates?” Why don't we start with that?" And we were all like, "Why don't we just end with that?"
And it was really because it says exactly what we mean. It means that we're going to look outside. Our behaviors of searching for people has to be different. Our behaviors of trying to retain talent has to be different. So don't duplicate what you've always done, whether it's acquisition or retention. Really think about an inclusive, diverse workforce, which means that you can't hire people like me, right? So, no duplicates really ticks that off.
And then when we think about the broader place that we want DDB to occupy and look like and feel like and sound like, it should sound like no other by the time we've finished. It's a high ambition, but that sounds like us and has the diversity that we have, and the inclusion within that diversity, the inclusion that we have.
So at all levels, it was like ticking boxes, and that's what we're still trying to strive for. It's what I call an example of a never-ending brief, right? You'll probably never get there, but it's very simple to understand. It's simple to articulate. And I just gave you maybe four or five levels to it. You can start with one level. Do that well. Do the next. You know, it's quite malleable and modular. And so that's sort of the thinking, that's how it came up and that's how we're applying it to the business. And it's one of the simplest on-boardings that we give. It's done in 10 minutes, because people… you take it and you make it your own, as well. Because you put your own benchmarks and what you know as an individual, and you try and move away from that. And that, in and of itself, if everyone's doing that, you're going to get more diversity by default. Because we're not giving them a blueprint to start with. Start with yourself. Everyone's different.
We thought it was really smart. Super creative. You know, creativity comes in all forms, and it can come in organizational design, you know? Uh, DDB, you know, we invented the art director of the copywriter. We kind of felt like, "You know what? We think we've just invented something else. We haven't coined it, but you know?" But that's what we should do. We should be creative in all areas of our business.
So that was a real moment, I think, for the leadership team where we thought, "You know what? We nailed the brief." We didn't know we had, but over that course of that meeting, we kind of nailed the brief. We felt quite proud of ourselves. So that's where it came from.
Charles: (23:40)
One of the problems in the industry, not just this industry, but this industry certainly suffers from it, is that the supply chain is designed to produce candidates who are predominately white and, more often than not, male. What we need to do is dramatically expand the supply chain. How do we change and how do we fix the supply chain?
Justin Thomas-Copeland: (23:57)
I think the agencies have got to go back into the supply chain themselves and work it differently. We've got to create new avenues for people to come into the industry. We've got to, I think, broaden out the paths of discovery about the industry. Many people where I grew up still don't know this industry exists-
Charles: (24:16)
Yep.
Justin Thomas-Copeland: (24:17)
... because, you know, they just don't. It's mind-boggling maybe, but it's easily done. So we've got to sort of go back to places which are unexpected places that you wouldn't have thought we should pop up, but we should, grassroots social programs. There's no reason why we shouldn't have an agency like DDB working with a social outreach program in ‘name your inner city’. And helping first and foremost, and being additive to that program, but also opening up DDB's brand as a pathway into a whole new career.
We don't do enough of that type of work. And that's something that, as we look at DDB and we have a VP in North America just looking at attraction and acquisition of talent, we need to get into those types of ideas. Again, being creative about where are we taking our brand and how are we activating our brand. Otherwise, it won't change quick enough.
I know there are some fantastic minds out there, creative minds, that just don't even know that this industry exists. And they're busy doing what they do, but they could do well with us. They could take our work to the next level. And we’ve got to go out and take our brand to those places, rather than thinking that we stay as an agency and maybe we're just a bit more open or fairer in our filtering. That's not the answer. Because to your point, the supply chain is set up a certain way. We need to break and disrupt that.
So those are areas that we are definitely talking about a lot, inside DDB. Rome wasn’t built in a day. We're working towards that, but we're committed to that. We really are.
Charles: (26:03)
The kind of ambition you're describing, obviously is fundamental. I mean, it requires fundamental change. That in and of itself depends on the ability to engender trust across the organization, because you have to think about things, definitely you have to do things differently, you have to take risks in different ways, maybe people have to be empowered to do that in a thousand different ways. How do you go about engendering trust when you walk in the door with the kind of remit and the kind of personal ambition that you've got for the company? How do you go about engendering trust to say, "I really want you to think and act differently, and I mean it. I'm going to support that,"?
Justin Thomas-Copeland: (26:37)
I think you've got to be an example of the behaviors that you're calling on people to display and give back to you. I don't think there's any other way, to be honest, Charles. Get comfortable with being uncomfortable.
Personally, I didn't come into this role with a playbook. I came in to listen, to understand the brand. I'd had experience with working with DDB. Who doesn't know about DDB as a brand if you're in this industry? But I wanted to listen, and then I wanted to get active as well, because I think if you're going to really engender a philosophy of trust, people have got to see you practice what you preach. Don't just say it. You got to do it as well.
So I think some of the ideas and innovations and some of the changes and pivots that we've been making, I hope - because you never know, right - but I hope that people see that we are about doing more so than saying. We also put our hands up and say, "You know what? That probably wasn't the smartest thing we could've done, or we could've done that better." And that's definitely part of it.
Also, I've got this thing of being able to look in the mirror, and be honest with yourself about, you know, "What do I need to work on?" And you know, I'll tell people like, "I'm not good at these things. I'm quite good at these things. So be careful if you ask.” I'll have those conversations.
And trust is something that you earn, anyway, so you can only be genuine, I think, be consistent, and hope that you'll earn their trust. Your title's never going to give you trust. If anything, it will give you mistrust. So you better think about your behaviors, and what you're going to do differently, and how you're going to show up differently. I think that's one of the surest ways to start to build trust.
And you're right, if we're going to be successful as a team in our ambition for DDB, we'll only get there as a team, and that only happens when you trust each other. No team wins if there's no trust. Whatever the sport, whatever the challenge, whether you're climbing a mountain or trying to win the soccer match or whatever, the rugby match, you don't win unless there is trust. So it's the currency that you have to work for, you have to earn.
And I think it starts with how I put out, show out, the risks that people see me taking. I will say, "I don't know if this is going to work." Or, you know, "This may go south. And if it does, we've got to have a plan B." I will talk like that to my leadership team, because I don't want them to think I've got all the answers. That’s fake. I'm learning every day, right, and I'm learning from my team.
And I tell them that. I tell my team they're better than me at that. I tell them they shouldn't invite me to that, or I can help you with that. We have those conversations. And we have tough conversations as well, some uncomfortable ones as well. Because if we're really going to change, you've got to be prepared to have those conversations. You can't shy away from it.
I don't think you spark change by trying to be the most popular person. You spark change by being genuine and having the right intent. If you've got the right intent, even if your decisions are wrong, people will trust you, I think, because they know that you're coming from the right place.
So it's a lot of those types of things, and I'm still learning. I'm trying to get better at it. But trust is key to any success that we could hope to have for DDB five, 10, 15 years from now.
Charles: (30:03)
The physics of a change like this is, I often think a lot like riding a 10-speed bike, and that you've got to get it into first gear and you have to pedal really hard to make that first small revolution happen to start to build some momentum. How do you set the first levels of success? What are you looking for that will tell you, "This is beginning to happen,” or, “We're heading in the right direction?" What will early stage success look like?
Justin Thomas-Copeland: (30:26)
Listen, we're in advertising, so you and I both know it's, there's nothing like a win, right? And that could be an organic win, right. Wins come in different ways, right? So organic wins where clients stick with you as you're going through the change, that's a great way to sort of get in first gear, and also to accelerate to where you want to be, because you have trust with that client. You have the relationship. And when they stick with you, they know that you're going through change, and they're sticking with you and they're giving you opportunity, that's a great platform to sort of get into first gear.
Obviously, you know, external wins, net new wins, and we've had a few of those. They help. But I also think, before the work and before those things, I think just the people. If you're seeing and hearing from your team, the real things that are affecting them, the real things that they want to change, they're showing up with ideas and they're putting in to where we're going, that's also a great way of getting to first gear, because you need champions. You need the right sort of voices in the company.
And listen, there's the flip side. There is always a flip side when you do change. There are always going to be people that, they see it differently. They feel it differently. I've done change in different agencies of different sizes, and client side. You always get the flip side. And I think your ability to manage through that, listen to it, open yourself to it, lean into it. I think when people see the leadership team doing that and not being afraid to sort of listen in, that also helps with that first gear and getting momentum. Because people think, "You know what? They're serious about this. They are seriously open to learning and moving forward." And that's also sort of where people start making their personal decision points of, "Am I going to be in this?" And that's always good, that people get to that decision point, because you need people in the boat that really are going to propel you. You can't do it without the team. So that helps, all those things help with first gear, and getting momentum.
Charles: (32:34)
You talked a little bit earlier about the importance of creating an environment that is inclusive. There's a growing conversation around the need to create environments that are built around belonging. Do you see those as different?
Justin Thomas-Copeland: (32:46)
Yeah. I mean, if you develop an inclusive environment, then that sense of belonging, like that emotional kind of sense…. Inclusion almost is, you could say inclusion is the act or the behavior of bringing people in and I think belonging is the emotional feeling. A bit like creative work. When you do great creative work, and something sparks, right, and you identify with, right? You feel like you have a sense of identification with whatever you're seeing, or whoever you're talking with. That sense of belonging is critical. We can work in inclusion strategies. And we are. And we can go beyond, so that's beyond diversity for me personally, where there are real steps by the organization, the teams, leaders to bring people in, you know, give them a place, give them a seat, and make that an active place, and an active seat. But the sense of belonging for me is like the holy grail. You know what I mean? It's like, I feel that from my stomach. I feel like this is my home. I feel like these are my people. This is my team. That's kind of where we're looking for. And it's no different to great creative work. When you see that, you know, whether it's a piece of film, or whether it's an experience that you've lived, or whether it's a brand artifact, or whatever it may be. When you see it, and it sparks. I can't write a brief for that. You either get that, or you don't. And we're trying to get that at DDB, so we’ll see. Hopefully.
Charles: (34:24)
The few times to date where agencies have actually been able to solve this problem, even in a small way, have typically happened when clients have mandated staffing plans, staffing structures. I think it was General Mills who three or four years ago said to their agencies, “We're only interested in teams that reflect society.” And then suddenly within a couple of months, the agencies were somehow magically able to solve problems that for years they'd been saying they couldn't. Have you engaged clients in this initiative? What you're trying to do is obviously so important, and so substantive. Have you engaged clients in helping to support and challenge you in constructive ways to make these changes happen?
Justin Thomas-Copeland: (34:59)
Yeah. And we embrace it by the way. We embrace it. We've gone to all of our clients actually, and said, “What are your plans? How do you see inclusivity, and diversity, and inclusion? How do you see it? How is it playing out in your organization? What are your expectations?” Some clients have come to us and challenged us on work and, “Are these ideas coming from that place through the teams?” We're very open house, and open book about it. I think that's really, really important. I'll be honest with you, I don't think any agency can say that they've nailed that brief. I think we're still working towards it. There isn't enough influx, I don’t think, of diverse talent. And we’re all now trying to bring them into our own agencies.
So, you know, we've got to be careful, it doesn't become more of an economical dynamic than it is about true inclusion, and change in our industry, because supply and demand forces are at play here. But, if we can go back and look at having a systemic, long-term strategic view on how we're going to change our teams, and how we're going to bring in different ideas. And by the way, it's not always about having to hire permanent employees. You can form partnerships. You can bring in small cohorts. You can do it in different ways as well. So if you use ideas, if you can't get to your whole agency being changed, you can bring in different partners in order to help you have different inspirations for your creativity. Clients want to see it in the work though.
To your point, General Mills, in that example, they do want to see it in the work. And I welcome that. They want to see it in the ideas. And any good creative business should be in tune with what's happening in the world anyway. If you're going to tell a brand that you can help them flourish today in business, you better be of the world, and in context, and relevant. So that should be our job. That should just be how we see success for our clients’ brands. And definitely at DDB, that's how we're thinking.
Charles: (36:59)
I know you know America well, and you've had a lot of professional, and personal experience here, but you also obviously have a very strong, profound, British background and upbringing. Do you think coming in, to some extent from the outside, has helped in terms of the energy and the perspective you bring?
Justin Thomas-Copeland: (37:15)
I think it helps definitely. I think it helps because this is a curious industry. We have curious minds. We're a creative business. So everyone's always listening to see how you see things differently, right? That's a great thing about being in a truly creative environment. Everyone's open, and I think it really helps, because people are curious, they want to understand, well, how do you see it? What have you lived? What have you seen? So yes, but don't make that the calling card. You've got to make sure that you're truly in the discussion. Don't only play to your differences. You've got to see where the conversation is, and see how you can be part of that. So people do, I think they have listened. They've been open to my suggestions. They've been open to some of the things I've seen from other parts of the world that are brought to the States.
But they also want to know that I understand North America, thank you very much. The USA-Canada, right? You can't get away from that. And that's what I mean, you can't just play your differences. You've also got to show that you understand, and you can contextualize your different points of view, or how things could evolve. And I think when you can do that, and again, another one of those never-ending briefs, but when you can do that, or start to do that, because we're in a creative industry - everyone I talk to is creative - they're open to that. They're building, they're brainstorming, and they're questioning. And that I think makes conversations richer. And it makes them open to those conversations with me. I think that helps that I come from somewhere else. I can bring that to the table.
Charles: (38:48)
How do you lead?
Justin Thomas-Copeland: (38:51)
A lot of listening. This world that we're in now with COVID, I think is a very humbling time. At least that's my take on it. I listen a lot. I encourage. I like to challenge. I love to enable. Really, I have no fear. I'm pretty fearless. And by that, I mean, I think everything’s possible. It goes a little bit back to my mum, where, you know, don't say can't, right? Really, and truthfully, I was raised with that. So I lead by trying to find a way to make it happen. And if it can't happen, sometimes it can't happen, that's fine. But my going in approach tends to be more positive and enablement, and how can we, or how could we. Very human, I'm a down to earth guy. Yes, I'm in a great position, and I'm thankful for that, but I've got to earn it, right?
So I lead by example. I lead by being with the teams. We've got creative leaders. You know, our CEOs and Presidents are creative people at heart. It's everywhere. You can't contain that. If you've worked with creative people, you have to know that you've got to give them space.
They're going to drive you crazy. It's going to happen, right? But you got to love that. So I lead by being really human and allowing everyone to be themselves. Being real, and being who you are is really important to me in terms of leadership style. I may like to put on a suit, but, my aesthetic is about being real and being open. There's a lot of talk about being vulnerable, and I think COVID has really humbled people, and made people vulnerable. But to be honest, in my journey, in my career, I could only have been myself, because I would have been exhausted if I wasn't. It's just been too long of a road. So the one thing I've always banked on is, I'm just going to be me. And some people have liked it and some haven't, but that typifies my leadership style. I've been blessed with so many people around the world, who I've worked with. I have friends and networks that last a lifetime, because I'm just the same person I was 20 years ago, right? Hopefully, I've changed a bit, and matured a bit, but you know what I mean? In essence, I'm still just who I am. There's no veneer.
Charles: (41:15)
And what are you afraid of?
Justin Thomas-Copeland: (41:18)
What am I afraid of? I'm afraid of losing that. Afraid is big word for someone like me. I'm afraid of things, like, you know, family related things happening. You know what I mean? Like, real life happening. Work-wise, I don't know what there is to be afraid of. I think the day that I'm afraid of anything professionally, for someone like me, that's a problem. The worst that can happen is that you don't have the position. People don't like to talk like that, or think like that. I've always had to think like that. Like, from my first job, I've been in positions where, you know, I've had a great opportunity, but I've been told, “If we don't win this thing, it's going to be tough to find you a spot.” I never get afraid in those situations. I'm like, “Okay, cool. Let's just win the thing. Let's get on with it.”
So I don't know about being fearful. Maybe when it comes to the human side of a leadership position, I'm afraid of my teams not feeling they're enabled, not feeling they're supported. Afraid probably is the wrong adjective. Maybe, you know, I would, I'll be disappointed in myself, right? You know what I mean? It's different from being afraid. I think we're in privileged positions. Charles, this is a great industry. These are great jobs. We work with great brands. You know, you should be spending energy being thankful, and trying some stuff. Rather than watching your shoulders, because those are the things I can't control. And again, I grew up being told that from a young boy, the things that you can control, my mom would say, you know, P’s and Q’s, you know, you can control your manners, and how you behave, and how you show up. How people perceive you, you can't control that. The decisions people will make about you, you can't control that. But as long as all my team are feeling enabled, that they can be as creative as they want to be, and they need to be for their brands, I don't know that I've got anything to be afraid of, to be honest. I really don't.
Charles: (43:22)
Thank you so much for joining me today. Your energy and your sense of what's possible, I think is, infectious. And I wish you nothing but the best, making this-
Justin Thomas-Copeland: (43:31)
Thank you.
Charles: (43:31)
... happen, because it's, it's such an important journey that you're on both, obviously for your agency, but I think for the industry, and in fact for the world at large. And I think if you can put a big dent into some of this stuff, it's going to make the world a better place for sure.
Justin Thomas-Copeland: (43:44)
That's really kind. And we will try. We will try every day, every minute, and we'll enjoy it while we do. You know, we're creative people. So, you know, we'll have fun. If you don't have fun while you're in these positions, you shouldn't be in them. So thank you for the invite. I really, really appreciate that. It's great to have this platform, and great to meet you.
Charles: (44:01)
Likewise.
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