168: Khurrum Malik - "The Socratic Leader"

Khurrum Malik of Spotify

Why questions are more important to him than answers.

"FEARLESS CREATIVE LEADERSHIP" PODCAST - TRANSCRIPT

Episode 168: Khurrum Malik

Hi. I’m Charles Day. I work with creative and innovative companies. I coach and advise their leaders to help them maximize their impact and grow their business. To help them succeed where leadership lives - at the intersection of strategy and humanity.

This week’s guest is Khurrum Malik. He is the Head of Global Business Marketing at Spotify, which makes him and his team responsible for bringing the company’s benefits to listeners and advertisers alike. It also places him at the border crossing of creativity and technology.

The pressure from both sides of those territories is relentless. And you can’t manage them alone for long without being run over.

Science versus uncertainty. Data versus instinct. The art of leading companies that rely on creative thinking and innovation requires - or more accurately, demands - that you are open and available and supporters of all.

It also demands that you bring in help to stand alongside you.

People with their own talents, experiences and passions.

A team that you trust to share your beliefs and your principles.

Today, it’s never been harder to build that team.

“How do you build trust in a pixel-based world? It's hard, and it takes time and you've got to work on things together. I think human beings are still trying to figure out, ‘Do I trust a pixel relationship as much as I trust a relationship for somebody I can walk up to?’”

Creativity is the most human - perhaps uniquely human - characteristic. It is revealed by a problem, powered by a tolerance for risk and scaled by the capacity to trust.

For every company, your growth potential and your trajectory is directly correlated to your leadership’s capacity to engender trust.

I’m going to have a lot more to say about this in an upcoming episode. But for now, this quick checklist will help.

At the end of every video call, make a quick note to yourself that captures the answers to these four questions.

Did I ask them how they were? Do I remember what they said?

Did I say what I meant? Did I mean what I said?

If you can’t honestly, hand on heart honestly, answer yes to every question after every call — every call — you have a trust gap.

And until you close it, you’ll have a creativity and innovation gap.

Here’s Khurrum Malik.

Charles: (02:38)

Khurrum, welcome to Fearless. Thanks so much for coming on the show.

Khurrum Malik: (02:41)

Great to be here, Charles. Happy to, happy to chat with you, as always.

Charles: (02:45)

When did creativity first show up in your life? When do you first remember creativity being a thing?

Khurrum Malik: (02:50)

I have a memory growing up of my mom's aunt. You know, in the summer she would give us a piece of paper. And her task was, ‘do something with this piece of paper.’ And my memory there was taking that piece of paper and writing on the front and back, either a story of what could be, a story of what had happened, or I would draw something.

So I think the closest thing in my pre-teen years was probably writing and your chatting. But the writing part with that piece of paper really got that going. And that was her, that was her purpose. You know, I grew up in a family where often times, you know, math and science was valued over the arts, and so I think this was her way of putting myself and my cousin on the spot to go create something just out of a piece of paper. And I remember having a constraint like that can actually be empowering.

Charles: (04:03)

Where did that emphasis on math and science come from?

Khurrum Malik: (04:08)

I think it's a combination of things. So the first is my family in Pakistan, a lot of the family was either physicians or military. And within the military, it came from the engineering side of the military where you, you know, fix tanks and things like that. And of course, physicians are integrated with the sciences anyway. I think as a lot of my family migrated from Pakistan to the United States and the UK, I think there's a certainty with STEM, like science, technology, engineering, math. If you make this your craft, there's a certainty to it, and you'll probably be employable.

If it's, you're going to make your life in the craft of the arts or the classic creativity, there's more uncertainty and we don't know how you'll fare. So you may want to stay on the STEM side. So I think it comes from that as well, which is you're going to a new country and you're going to be in an uncertain place, you may want to drive as much certainty as you can. I really believe psychologically that's where it comes from, for a lot of immigrants actually, that kind of bend their children toward STEM. I'm not saying everybody does that, but that's certainly been a lot of my experience.

Charles: (05:31)

You moved around a lot as a child, right? Your family moved around a lot.

Khurrum Malik: (05:35)

Yes. We ping-ponged a lot. It was like Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, United States, Houston, Milwaukee, back to Pakistan, some summers in the United Kingdom, and then back to the DC area. And so I think I was in over a dozen homes before the age of 13.

Charles: (06:02)

And does any one of them stand out to you now as home? If somebody says to you, "Where's home?" Do you have an answer?

Khurrum Malik: (06:07)

Yeah. Funny enough, there's like two things that I kind of share with them. So first is, moving that much builds a type of grit and resiliency, where you have to acclimate quickly, and at first I thought that I didn't have a center of gravity to call home. But the benefit of that has been that it's helped me develop some grit and ability to acclimatize, you know, wherever I can be. Funny enough, what I'd consider home is where I've spent seven years of education, which is Charlottesville, Virginia. And those that know me, I went to University of Virginia three different times for three different degrees, and when you end up spending a very intense period of time for seven years in one location, whether that is in your childhood or not even in your childhood, it becomes your calling. And so yeah, Charlottesville, there's worse places to consider home, but I consider that place a magical place.

Charles: (07:17)

What did education at that level mean to you?

Khurrum Malik: (07:22)

Oh, gosh. It really depends on the stages in which I went. So first of all, education for me overall meant answering questions and security. If you get an education, you were more likely to be successful. But the other side of it was answering questions, and let me play that out a bit. For undergrad, it was go to a great public school, potentially go to medical school because your parents want you to go to medical school. I ended up not going to medical school, but majoring in sciences and it was all about pragmatism and what I chatted about earlier about certainty and, you know, the physics of knowing the science and just getting going.

I think intuitively I knew technology was going to become a pretty big thing. This is 20, almost 20 years ago. And I was like, "This Internet thing, it's kind of a good thing to get my head around."

To answer your question, it goes back to pragmatism on the early stage for me, and then that turned into curiosity. And funny enough, when I was driven by curiosity, I performed a lot better in school. And when I was driven by pragmatism, it was more transactional in nature. And so, you know, I... Those that are listening, if you're thinking about getting education, whatever kind it is, ask yourself, "Is it just for pragmatism?" You may not be as excited by it. But if it's deep questions you have, not philosophical questions, but questions that you're driven by curiosity then then you'll probably do more with your education.

Charles: (09:14)

Do you think of yourself more as a marketer or as a technology expert?

Khurrum Malik: (09:21)

That's a great question. Really neither. I think about myself as somebody that helps to grow technologies. And the way I do that is… grow technologies and careers. And the way I do that is through the craft of marketing and leadership. I'd say I'm someone who enjoys growing complex technologies. Within that, the people that grow those technologies. And the craft and the medium through which I help make that happen is often regarded as marketing. But if you talk to anybody in marketing, marketing is a word that means so many things, and so that's why I try to think of it just as a craft with an outcome which to me is about growth.

Charles: (10:16)

Your first job right out of college, or after your MBA, was Microsoft, right? Why did you decide to go work for a big company versus a smaller start-up? What drew you to that?

Khurrum Malik: (10:27)

I had come out of undergrad and not gone to medical school and spent about seven years in consulting with Andersen Consulting, now Accenture. And then one of my clients, one of my clients ended up being Sprint / Nextel and did some corporate strategy sales ops work there. Decided to go to get my business degree because I wanted to pivot, very intentionally, into technology. I also knew that I loved growing things, and I really loved making sense out of complexity. And oftentimes, that's marketing. Like, the message, the audience, the value proposition. And so when I went to graduate school at University of Virginia, the Darden School of Business, I knew I was going to gravitate to technology, careers and marketing, but it had to be with a growth company.

There's another thing I knew, and this is 2004 or ‘05. Got to be frank, back then, the East coast did not market and monetize technology very well. All the top software companies were on the West coast, and I'd argue they still are, but now it's really dual coastal and you've got some really good stuff on the East coast as well. And so first thing in my mind was like, "I want to go out West. I really need to see how things are done either in the valley…." And then Seattle wasn't the top of mind. But if you think about Microsoft, and you know, there's two camps to Microsoft. There's a lot of people who love them and then there's a lot of people that are like, "Ugh, Microsoft!"

I'm a fan. And what I found coming out of grad school was that Microsoft had a program for MBA grads to go into a product management rotation program and they drop you right into a product area, they expect you to own the pricing, or the promotion for that product, to work with engineering teams. And so what I saw at Microsoft was a company that knew foundationally how to monetize technology. I may be off by a couple billion here, but there's five to seven companies that have over 20 billion dollars in operating profit in a year, and I think Microsoft had two: Windows and Office. And so I was like, "Huh, you know, they've got something right there." And so, for me it was almost a continuation of graduate school.

I haven't been chewed out like I was chewed out at Microsoft with engineering leaders. And the decision really was all about let's see how it's really done at scale. And it was eye-opening. And it's a great company. Still is a great company. But at the time it was a perfect transition point.

Charles: (13:21)

What did they teach you about leadership?

Khurrum Malik: (13:25)

Oh, man. I'd say there was a company and then there was a person that had a big impact while I was there. There was a lot of great people I met. I think as a company, what Microsoft really valued at the time, I think they still do, is really healthy debate. Ask the uncomfortable question. Part of being a leader is allowing that uncomfortable question to be posed in an environment, to be debated using data, and being really thoughtful about, is the person with the loudest voice winning the debate or are the facts winning the debate? So I think openness in debate was something that I thought was just awesome. And the product teams, and the eng teams, and sales teams, and open debates is great, and a good learning within Redmond.

I think the person that... And if he hears this, I don't know if he'll chuckle. There's a gentleman named Terry Myersen, and he was general manager of Exchange. Eventually, I think became president of Windows. And he took debating and the uncomfortable conversations to the next level. And at the time, it was tough to be in it. But as I reflect on it, I understand why Terry was doing that. If I came with a recommendation on pricing, he would say things like, "Gosh, I'd expected triple that. Why isn't this triple that? You're thinking too small." "Oh, we think this service will get to 22% of people in the next 18 months." And he would push and be like, "That's embarrassing, right? It should be 65. What would it take to get to 65?"

So Terry, he was fearless in his pushes, and just really pushed us to be better and asked the comfortable question and things that people were thinking. Now there were some things that Terry sometimes did that people were like, "Wait, what?" But he's done really well and so really stood out as a leader and asking the difficult questions.

Charles: (15:48)

Have you brought that into your leadership?

Khurrum Malik: (15:55)

You know, my leadership is a little different than Terry's but it has the same path. So my principles generally are around… I love transparency across teams. I like to drive towards growth related outcomes with a purpose. And I love innovation creativity. Those are the three centers of gravity that I have in my leadership, but my style is more Socratic. And so sometimes that can be good, but it can also be frustrating for some people. And so I'm just being open about what my style is. So instead of saying, "Hey, that should be triple," I'll say, "Do we think that's the most we could do? What would need to be true for us to.…" You know, I'll ask questions like that.

Sometimes, that can be frustrating for some people on my team, because they'll be like, "I just want you to tell me what to do," and I really do believe that Netflixian pew of creative, smart people do not want to be told how and what to do. They want context and constraints, and then go run with it. And I think the Socratic method helps with that. And I think I probably got that also from… the Darden School is 100% case based. I mean, try doing accounting in a case based Socratic method. It'll make your brain… it'll make your brain hurt. And Darden learned from Harvard Business School, which is majority case based as well. And so I learned and appreciated the power of that approach.

You just have to be careful, because if you do it in an inauthentic way, it can come across as being pedantic, or passively aggressive and so I try to be aware of that.

Charles: (18:03)

What happens when you get into the gray areas of a case-based approach? What happens in the gaps?

Khurrum Malik: (18:10)

So, just for, for those that are kind of listening, what does that mean, case-based approach? So let me lay it out and then I'll answer your question, Charles. So, a case-study way of learning is, let's say you're taking a marketing class, and instead of a professor lecturing to you about like, "Okay, this week we're going to cover positioning and messaging," what the professor will do is give you a story, four or five page story of a business situation and a bunch of tables and maps with this situation. And at the end, two or three questions that you would need to answer before you come to class.

So you come to class, and the professors, they do this thing called a cold call. So imagine 40 people sitting in a class. Professor doesn't teach. Professor says, "Oh, Mr. Malik. So you're the CMO, would you run this marketing campaign? And could you come to the board and explain why you would run the marketing campaign, yes or no?" And so the case method is a way to prepare in advance of a discussion, and you have to have a decision in it. Now, oftentimes in case methods and even real life, you can have all the data you want and you can have all the context you need. The gray area often is where intuitive decisioning has to come out.

And so to answer your question, it both in case studies and in kind of real life, even at work, you can have the data that tells you one thing but you also have to use your judgment. And so the gray area, you know, when it's very gray, I tend to move actually further away from data and more go towards principles. So if the data is saying, "Oh, this market is ripe for monetization, but as a company your principle is to not sell tobacco products,” even though the return is high, as a principle you'd wade away from that.

So, I think both in case studies and in real life you got to balance data with your core principles and beliefs, and I think that that guides more in a gray area. I think like people say these days, it's really big to say, "Hey, I make data-driven decisions." And it's kind of like, "You probably want to make data-informed decisions." You know? And like, everything cannot be atomized to data. I don't believe that. As much as I love data, I just don't think everything can be atomized to data.

Charles: (20:58)

So when you lead through a Socratic approach, does that change the nature of the people that you need to hire around you? Are you conscious therefore of the kind of casting you need to do to put the right people around you?

Khurrum Malik: (21:11)

Certainly. Definitely. Not only the type of people, but you have to be just thoughtful about the function you're in and the industry you're in, so I'll start with that. If I was leading an ops team building pipes, and we're manufacturing something and we're doing lean thinking and it's about quality, variety, cost and speed of manufacturing, I don't know if I would do a Socratic style. There, it's very like, "Okay, here's three Sigma off the mean. Let's get this quality control in place." So for me, I know that I'm in an industry that is technology. I know that I'm in an industry and function where your job is to communicate, educate, and inspire customers of that technology, and it's constantly changing. So you're basically in an environment of constant flux.

And so your stories have to evolve, change, but at the same time be stable. And so the type of talent that you look for in that environment is one that has amazing, inquisitive horsepower to just be very curious. Inquisitive and growth oriented, want to learn. Folks that are hungry for context and constraints. And folks that are thinking about big goals. They're hungry. And folks that don't need as much prescription on, "How do I do this, or what do I do?" Now, that varies by the level of leader that you hire, right? If you're just coming out college or you're an intern, you do have to have a little bit more prescription. “Here are the four things we need your help with. Here's how we've done it in the past. Go forth.”

And so you may, for more early stage roles, have a little bit more prescription and less Socratic. But for my direct reports, senior managers and above, directors, I really look for folks that are inquisitive, growth oriented, problem solvers, and so that I can help give them their context and let them run with it. Things are moving too quickly and are too fluid to have a command and control environment. I'm very, very intentional about that.

Charles: (23:45)

So it strikes me, that kind of approach really does benefit from, and maybe even depends on, having a mission-driven focus, being really clear about where are we going, what are we trying to achieve, what does success look like? Is that true?

Khurrum Malik: (23:56)

Yep. Yes. 100% true. It’s very true. But there's two sides to that. I think there's the mission, kind of vision you have, not only for your team, but the greater company that you're a part of. I'm lucky enough to be at Spotify, and when I think about our B2B, our B2B2C marketing team, I always talk about how we're in the business of educating and inspiring millions of advertisers to connect with billions of listeners. And that's all so that artists can earn a living. I kind of lay that out, the why. Why do we exist as a team?

I think that is important and helps set context for people. And then you see head nods and people get excited. However, I believe it still is important to have the pragmatic side of the leader and be like, "Okay, so if that's our vision, therefore in the next six months, our OKRs are this. These are the things that we really need to do to achieve the right steps in that vision." And for those that are familiar with OKRs, objectives and key results, think of big intel thing from Silicon Valley, Andy Grove, that world, and then I think Google uses them too. But OKRs are a way of laying out what you plan to accomplish, an objective, and then key results are, what are the one, two, three things that have to be true for you to be successful in your objective?

And a lot of people struggle with that. A lot of people struggle with it, because they're used to getting tasks. So you often see, "Hey, what are your accomplishments?" And you'll see a bunch of activities. But that's not a key result. An activity is not a result. And for some folks it is, but unless it moves a lever.… So yeah, balancing both vision, which is all exciting, with some pragmatism, because teams will inevitably say, "So what do I do in the next six months? Help me prioritize." Because if you just have vision without some constraints and context over the next six months, it can be counter-productive.

Charles: (26:16)

I also imagine that establishing trust in a team like that must be crucial to having this work. How do you go about creating an environment that builds and engenders trust for people?

Khurrum Malik: (26:29)

When I talk about transparency, there… that is for me almost the same as trust. And what I mean there is, there is an open environment, and what you say you're going to do, you do. it isn't easy to build trust. I think it takes time. It has to be in a transparent environment. I think the way we think about it on our team is we are open in our communications about what's happening across the team, what are priorities, celebrating successes, celebrating some failures as well, just being very honest. And when you say something, you do it.

And it's hard to do. I actually really think a fair amount about folks on my team that have started their roles in an only digital way. They haven't met people in person. How do you build trust in a pixel-based world? It's hard, and it takes time and you've got to work on things together. I think human beings are still trying to figure out, "Do I trust a pixel relationship as much as I trust a relationship for somebody I can walk up to? Maybe not shake hands, but touch elbows." So yeah, there, there's a range of things that we do.

I worked at Facebook as well, before Spotify. And I really learned a lot about transparency there. I know Facebook is a company that gets beat up a lot in media, and I can understand people's viewpoints. But inside the company, as an example, when I was there, Zuck would hold, I think it was Thursdays, he would hold a company all-hands every Thursday. He would take questions from anybody in the world, on the spot, no pre-arranged, and it was very transparent. You could go in and pull up data on growth rates from anything in the company. And so I think that helps build trust internally.

Now, there's other issues that Facebook's dealing with, but I think that part of trust and transparency internally, was just really, really well done and I think Google does something very similar. So, I learned from that and it helps.

Charles: (29:01)

Your career and a good part of your education has focused through a technology lens. You've lived in a world of zeros and ones. You’ve talked about the fact that creativity and innovation are really important to you. How do you meld those two? How do you meld this thing that requires absolute certainty and absolute precision with something that has no certainty and no precision to it?

Khurrum Malik: (29:24)

Yeah, it's a great question. The first thing I'd say is, just because technology is in zeros and ones doesn't mean it's precise. It can be precisely confusing and it could be precisely wrong also. So the Lego blocks of technology are known and can be kind of crafted to have this thing, but that thing could be Frankenstein or it could be the Mona Lisa. Kind of a digital version of the Mona Lisa, at least. And similarly in the arts, you've got your pencil and you got your paper and that's your zeros and ones.

Stepping back from philosophy, the way I think about creativity and even technology is, I'm one of those folks that my favorite question is the why question. Not the how question, or the what question, or the when question, or the who. Mine is the why. And what I think about creativity and technology balancing is I always ask myself, "Why are we applying this technology? Why would a customer want this? Why are we investing here? Why is this confusing?" And what I find is it's the same set of questions one could ask for when you are writing a novel. Why are these three characters in a dark forest? Why are they running towards the howling? And as a writer, you have to answer those questions, right? Because you're taking people through a journey.

When you're product manager or a technology manager, you're constantly asking yourself the why questions as well. So to bring it home, creativity, whether in the technical sphere or the non-technical sphere, still needs, I believe, some sort of purpose or why. And then there also needs some constraints. Meaning, are there financial constraints? Are there physical constraints? Are there legal constraints? So I always think about those two dimensions, the purpose and what are the constraints with which to work with, and then the precision can come. And, truth be told, the last time I'd be close to an engineer was 15 years ago when I was coding some stuff. I get to work with really, really talented technologists here at Spotify, and engineers and product leaders that really build a lot of the cool things we ship. But I get to play the role of why to make sure I understand it and my team's going to communicate the how and the what to customers.

The one other thing I'd share is, there’s a best practice in tech circles, when a product or new technology is a kind of an apple of someone's eye, someone's like thinking about it, one of the things that folks often do is write a press release about it in the future. So what is the press release answering? Why is this coming to market? What is it? Who does it serve? When is it coming to market? What does it do? Et cetera. And that's often, I find, a very centering thing. It humanizes what's being built. There's nothing worse than having teams building something that no one really uses. And then it's the same thing in writing too, right?

I mean, it can be kind of cathartic to the writer. And if they're writing it for their self, that's great. But if the goal is to get an audience, you've got to have some purpose.

Charles: (33:07)

I want to talk about your personal journey for a couple minutes, if you're willing. You described yourself earlier on as an immigrant. Do you still feel that way? Are you conscious of being an immigrant today?

Khurrum Malik: (33:19)

I am more conscious of it in the last five to seven years than I was before that. And that sounds counterintuitive. You think over time you may meld into the melting pot. I think, I went through a phase in my career where I leaned more heavily into outcomes and ‘don't seek promotions, seek impact, and that's how you'll grow.’ And that's still the case. I think what we've seen over the past five years in the United States, with the Black Lives Matter protests, with the politicization of everything, it feels at times like what you appear to as somebody from the way you look and what your name is, is more heightened. For example, never in my career had I ever been called a person of color until two or three years ago.

Now, that doesn't mean I hadn't felt strange things. You know, at Microsoft I was asked, "Hey, which dev team do you lead?" I was like, "No, I'm on the marketing team." They're like, "What development team?" I'm like, "No, I'm on the marketing team." And so I've had experiences like that, but I think over the last three or four years that's been more. And I think I’d say politics had a big part to play. I think the 2016 election had a big part to do with it. And, you know, if you come from a Muslim nation, even though if you're not practicing or you've been here a while, people kind of start to see you through that lens at times. So yeah, so to answer your question, it's I think more so in the last four or five years than ever before, and I think a lot has to do with the climate that I think we're all in, at least in the US. So yeah.

Charles: (35:23)

Has that reality changed your behavior in any way? Are you more conscious of how you show up?

Khurrum Malik: (35:29)

You know, it's a really good question. I've been thinking about this as well. I think it's changed two things. The first thing it's changed for me is remove my callous a bit. And what I mean there was to have an acknowledgement that there are folks that have experienced kind of a lot of injustices as a result the way they look, and their names, and all that stuff. And, I think it's made me want to be part of the solution and help, and take up mentoring more - I lead our ad’s Business, Diversity Inclusion and Belonging committee. I chair that. And so I'd say it's kind of pulled me into more of the humanity world and opened my eyes a bit more. So I think that's been that's been helpful and positive.

I think on the flip side, it's made me just kind of think about my boys. I have three sons of different ages, and they've got mixed names. Their last name is Malik, their first name is more what I'd call more English. But you wouldn't look at them and be like, "Oh, they're Pakistani, or they're Asian." They're kind of like this like hybrid, and you'd be like, "Wait, are they Asian? I don't know. Are they from the Mediterranean?" And so it's made me think about them and what will their identity be? What will they be thought of? We haven't had, a strong discussion about it except I share my experiences with them and I think they know their roots.

So those are the two main things. But I think the moral of the story is just kind of have conversations. No one's figured it out. I'm just a big fan of conversations, and I think even things like this, Charles, that you're doing, helps drive good discussions. Look, I also think podcasting is a great medium. You and I've talked about how when you podcast, people are really listening and not being stimulated by their eyes. And you really get to kind of hear it. So that's my plug for podcasting, but I really believe conversations through mediums like podcasting can help us each understand each other a bit more.

Charles: (38:02)

Yeah. I didn't want to finish this without actually just getting to talk for a minute about the power of audio as a medium, because you obviously are such an expert in that. But just tell us a little bit about why audio is such a powerful channel, such a powerful medium.

Khurrum Malik: (38:18)

I think that the way to think about audio is that it's a mechanism to connect with your cognition and how you think, how you learn, how you experience joy. Audio plays a role in almost every media too, like video, and you know it's there. Imagine watching Star Wars without any sound. And so let's start with that. What we've found in our research, audio as a medium stimulates human cognition, often more so than visual stimulus.

And there's a bunch of reasons for that. One of them is that you're often not distracted with what's happening on the screen, you're not processing multiple things at the same time. One of the reasons why a book may out perform a movie, because you're only being stimulated by your eyes, not hearing the book, right? So, audio is one of those mediums that, has been really under-appreciated. And now with podcasts and live audience streaming, it's really having a renaissance. And I’ll tell you, I think one of the things people always don't know is that if you think about digital and mobile having more time spent on it than television, and on mobile, audio - for the US consumer at least - has more time spent on it than social and even video.

Now, of course that includes music, it includes podcasting, and I think a lot of it has to do with screen fatigue. I think we spend a lot of time on screens and Zooms, and people want to go off for a run and they want to either learn or be inspired, and I think that audio's helping with that. And so I won't say it's the only medium. I think it's just one of those that's having a huge renaissance.

Another little, little, little tidbit on audio. When you interview somebody, if you interview them on just audio and you don't have a camera or a phone take their picture or video, their guard goes down, because they know they're not going to be judged by how they're looking. They're really going to be judged by how they sound and what are they saying. And so it takes the visual stimulus and sometimes noise out of it and you can really get to the essence. And so for those that are listening, like I encourage you to check it out. Create your own podcasts. Listen to all of Charles's podcasts. And experiment. The new generation of kids, my high schooler's got a podcast going instead of the school newspaper, and it's just a new way to share and converse.

Charles: (41:05)

Yeah, such a powerful medium. It is so interesting to hear from the inside, essentially, why the medium is so powerful. As you look forward, what are you afraid of?

Khurrum Malik: (41:18)

Oh, man. I'll answer that kind of in two ways. One on a personal basis, and then I'll answer that on a kind of a macro basis. On a macro basis, I'm actually deeply concerned about the kind of the fragmentation of trust in society. Because there's so much content, because it's easy to distribute that content, it's becoming harder and harder to find the truth. And so the thing that concerns me is how do we celebrate facts and the truth, and guide people to that, instead of disinformation? And I think that we still need to figure that out, and I think we need to celebrate great journalism and facts more.

So that on a macro basis concerns me, and I think it's manifesting itself even with COVID, right? It's just an example. So, I think there's some solutions to it and I think the silver antidote to it is education at a young age. In our town, we do media literacy as a course for middle schoolers. So think about that. Food literacy, right? Explaining like what should you eat? But how do you consume media? What’s healthy, what isn't? So that's something that, that concerns me on a macro basis.

I think on a micro basis, the main thing that my wife and I really think about, kind of put my career to the side, is just raising three boys that are that are good people and do it the right way, and have fun, and that's what I worry about. Are we raising them to have grit? Are we raising them to do well in uncertainty? Are we raising them to love people, come with open hands instead of a signal of distrust? And the reason that goes through our heads is mainly because we see what's happening with the kind of trust erosion and we're like, "Hey, we want to, we want a better space for these folks."

And I think through that aspect about my nieces and nephews, my friends' children and you know. But that's the kind of main thing that, you know, besides kind of the day-to-day work stuff, I mean, that, all of us have that. But that's what I think a bunch about Charles.

Charles: (43:56)

I want to thank you for joining me today. It's such a thoughtful and insightful perspective that you offer. And I'm really grateful to you for sharing it. I wish you well on your journey. Nothing but the best.

Khurrum Malik: (44:06)

Thank you. Thank you, Charles.

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