Amy Martin Ziegenfuss of Carnival Cruise Line
Does someone have to lose for you to win?
"FEARLESS CREATIVE LEADERSHIP" PODCAST - TRANSCRIPT
Episode 290: Amy Martin Ziegenfuss
Does someone else have to lose for you to win?
In this episode of Fearless Creative Leadership, Charles Day speaks with Amy Martin Ziegenfuss, Chief Marketing Officer of Carnival Cruise Line, about redefining success — and rejecting the zero-sum mindset that often drives ambition.
Amy reflects on her journey from a small-town theater kid to leading one of the world’s most recognized travel brands. She shares how creativity fuels business strategy, why leadership is about creating emotional safety, and how brands must balance long-term vision with real-time responsiveness in a volatile world.
They explore imposter syndrome, the power of preparation in earning a seat at the table, and why the best leaders see winning as collective, not competitive.
This is a conversation about impact, humility, courage, and the evolution from racing others to rising together.
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Charles Day (02:53):
Amy, welcome to Fearless. Thank you so much for coming on the show.
Amy Martin Ziegenfuss (02:56):
Thanks so much for having me. It's a pleasure.
Charles Day (02:59):
When did creativity first show up in your life? When are you first conscious of creativity being a force in the world?
Amy Martin Ziegenfuss (03:05):
I think probably when I was small, primary school sort of age, and I was a big reader. My parents read to me and then I discovered the wonderful world of books and the imagination, and spent a lot of time reading about far off lands and people and things and that really sparked some creativity in me and helped me realize that you could disappear from your environs just by reading things that someone else had created and that was pretty amazing, a portal to another world.
Charles Day (03:49):
What do you remember reading that you liked best?
Amy Martin Ziegenfuss (03:53):
Well, when I was small, I liked stories about kids who had adventures. So things like The Secret Garden and Little Prince and some of the my grandfather gave me Hans Christian Andersen's fairy tales. So I remember reading some of those. Some of those were quite dark, actually, now that I look back.
My dad got me into Tolkien so reading some of The Hobbit and other things, so just kind of like fantasy worlds and adventures and those kinds of things, which were just amazing because it was so different from where I grew up in central Pennsylvania.
Charles Day (04:34):
It's a through line, isn't it? Because I remember reading The Secret Garden. It had a massive and lasting impact on me. I remember being introduced to Tintin, actually, when I was about nine. In fact, Tintin's over my shoulder here.
And that really had such a profound impact on my life. But I remember being just captivated by those stories and the depth of character development and so on. And then I discovered Tolkien. I mean, I knew about it. But I discovered it very late on, actually.
Incredible storytelling and the imagination to, I think by some accounts probably—
Amy Martin Ziegenfuss (05:05):
Great languages, right? These worlds. I mean, wow.
Charles Day (05:19):
Yes, Worlds, habits, I mean, not habits, but traditions, behaviors, I mean, multi-dimensional thinking, it really is extraordinary to see somebody's brain work like that.
How did you express yourself as a kid and as a young adult?
Amy Martin Ziegenfuss (05:25):
So then from reading, I discovered the theater in school. I mean, you know, let's not be grandiose here, but it was incredible because I was definitely, I liked performing.
But then through English literature class in high school where I was a bit lost my first year, I think a lot of kids are at that age, around 14.
And I had an English teacher who was pretty incredible. She, after I did a reading class, you had to read aloud in class, she asked me to stay after class and said, would you consider becoming involved in theater? I think you'd really like it. And she clearly sort of saw something in me in that and probably saw me being a little lost. And that was an amazing outlet for me that, you know, seeing how plays are produced and put on and everything that goes into creating that world. I started out in props and putting sets together and helping behind the scenes and eventually then moved into acting and being involved in theater. And that was a kind of creativity I hadn't really been exposed to. Again, I come from a very small town.
So there's not a lot of theater there. So I hadn't really seen anything like that other than maybe The Sound of Music on TV, you know? So that was just incredible, again, to be kind of introduced to this world of plays and musical theater. And I became involved in speech and debate and just kind of, you know, both creating, directing, you know, producing plays and also acting them. Again, just such a huge, huge world that really taps into, you know, a different side of creativity that I think is really, really incredible.
And it also obviously was super helpful in preparing me for business, you know, for having poise and being able to express myself and be in front of, you know, people and all of that. A side effect I never would have imagined, right? But it was, it's really been helpful for me in so many ways.
Charles Day (07:27):
Yeah, I there's a lot of overlap between that and leadership, isn't there? The idea of setting a vision, setting an ambition, setting a goal, establishing a standard and an expectation, motivating people to unlock their own potential as much as possible.
Amy Martin Ziegenfuss (07:32):
Yes. Work as a team, all of those things. Yep, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. And some of it was a good lesson in how not to lead because I do remember some of the directors kind of getting a bit histrionic. Being sort of very, very dramatic about it all. I thought, oh, is that the best? We were all terrified. Is that the best way to motivate us? I don't know. Maybe.
Charles Day (08:01):
Yeah, I think I worked for that person at some point in my career. Maybe just for five minutes, but yeah, somewhere along the line. What drew you into the business world?
Amy Martin Ziegenfuss (08:03):
Right. I think we all have all worked for that person.
You know, consumer behavior really did. I studied English at uni because I didn't know what else to study and I loved it. So I sort of took by accident, took a comms marketing class one day, and I began to be exposed to the consumer behavioral part of marketing, right? Understanding consumers, understanding their insights, really that part of it. And that was intriguing to me. I had never really thought about that, about how people relate to companies, brands, products, and how companies can figure out their sweet spot of, how they can target the right people, right, with their brand and products. So that was what really opened it up for me. And I then sort of parlayed that into an internship at an agency and sort of came into it that way.
And that made me hungry to how marketing drives the business or can drive the business. And so I realized I had a little bit of a, well not a little bit, a large gap in my knowledge. And so I went to get an MBA after about five years of working because I realized I really wanted to understand how marketing fits into the business picture and I'd never taken an economics course or a finance course. So I really wanted to fill those gaps.
Charles Day (09:30):
It is, maybe not remarkable, but it is noteworthy, I think, of how much difference it is in one's leadership journey to take specific courses that highlight or strengthen vulnerabilities or areas where you have lack of experience. I remember doing that. We were building our film editing company, and I got to a certain point where I realized my instinct is just not going to be enough at this point. I actually need to understand, technically, practically.
Amy Martin Ziegenfuss (09:53):
That's right.
Charles Day (09:57):
—Almost physically, like, what is possible here and how should we be thinking about this and how should I be framing it for the people around me? I don't know there are enough leaders who take full advantage of that by saying, you know what, let me find two or three areas. I think people see it either as an all or nothing, don't they? Like I've got to go off and do a whole thing or I should do nothing. And in fact, I think being really selective about two or three areas can be invaluable and a massive accelerant, actually, in a leadership journey.
Amy Martin Ziegenfuss (10:10):
Yeah. Right.
That's right. And then I think you fill the other gaps you have by bringing in the right experts, right? Whether that's an agency that you bring in to help shore that up or ideally your leadership team, right? I look for people who have complimentary skills to mine, not the same ones, right? Because I want to learn from them and I want them to be helping to lead the business forward in those ways that I am not as much of an expert in. So yeah, I think that's exactly right. It's a combination of those things because you're never going to be able to learn all of it down to the ground, right?
Charles Day (10:52):
No, and think that point should be triple underlined, actually, because I think you're right. You see a lot of people who try to be great at everything and spend crazy amounts of time using what I think is the most valuable resource, which is the time a leader decides to spend on certain things. But when they're worried about their own sort of inadequacy or shortcomings in certain areas, and then they're like, I've got to get great at everything. I have to be better at everything than everybody else is.
It's such a weakness and such a waste of opportunity. So yes, I think being self-aware to say these things would be helpful, these things somebody else can do better than me, is a hard, it's a hard judge.
Amy Martin Ziegenfuss (11:25):
That's right.
I think to your point, it's understanding the things that you really need to know as a leader to understand what's possible. It's the art of the possible, isn't it? So you do need enough understanding, and deep understanding in some areas, to be able to evaluate that. But then the rest of it, you don't need to know to that degree, but you need leaders who do, so that they can fully understand that and bring that vision to life and execute, et cetera. So it is an interesting balance because I think you could spend a lot of time learning things that just aren't necessary, and actually miss out learning the things that are actually going to accelerate your leadership in the business.
Charles Day (12:02):
Yeah, and you can narrow it down, I think, to two very simple questions to ask yourself. The first is, what questions do I need to be able to answer? And then the second one is, what questions do I need to be able to get the answer to? And I think the distinction between those two is really important.
Amy Martin Ziegenfuss (12:14):
Yes.
Yes, that's a great point. I agree.
Charles Day (12:20):
Did you always want to lead?
Amy Martin Ziegenfuss (12:23):
No.
I really didn't. My wife might say I did because she and I definitely agree that I can be, I think we're not supposed to use the word ‘bossy’ anymore, but I'm definitely somebody who likes control. So there's that. But I don't think I ever, I never sat down and said, I want to be, you know, a CMO or I want to lead this or I want to lead that. It actually came because I wanted to be at the table. I wanted to be part of the conversation. I wanted to, what really drives me is making an impact.
And so for me, being able to make the best impact, you need to know what the challenges are and what the opportunities are and what the business is struggling with or needs. So I think it just kind of came from me wanting to do those things, which then led to more and more, you know, as I figured out how to get a seat at the table, different tables, right? You end up moving up.
And then I think, the other thing, and you mentioned this earlier, you know, I've worked for some pretty incredible leaders. I've worked for some leaders who taught me how I don't want to lead. And so as I started to, you know, have teams working for me, I tried to become the leader I loved working for and that I wanted to be. And then, and then you get teams who are, who, who, who are motivated and who you enjoy working with and they seem to enjoy working with you. And so then, then it sort of becomes this thing where you want to be a good leader for them. You know, it's that whole like cycle. So I think just, now I, now I enjoy it because I understand it's a privilege and a responsibility.
Charles Day (13:53):
What are those qualities, are those leadership qualities that you want to reflect, that you want to project?
Amy Martin Ziegenfuss (13:59):
Well, I think, you know, I always try to think about, as we discussed earlier, listening and learning from those around me, because that makes me stronger, you know, whether that's a stakeholder or a colleague or somebody on my team, you know, understanding what drives them, understanding what they're worried about, what they're trying to achieve and what their expertise is. And then suddenly, you, you bring yours to that and it becomes this interesting alchemy of, right, of, you know, wonderful things can happen. So I think a lot of listening, a lot of, you know, trying to remember that everyone comes to things with positive intent. So, you know, kind of that has helped to break down relationships and make them work well because I try not to be defensive and to lead with compassion. Everybody's a human and, you know, everybody wants to do a good job. At the end of the day, everybody wants to do a good job. you know, they're coming as a whole human. They have things going on at home in their lives, you know, their struggles, their fears, their hopes and dreams.
So I try to think about that. And then I try and think about balancing all that with, how do we make an impact? How do we do what's right for the business? At the end of the day, we're here to work and we all do better if the business does better and that's what we're here to do. I try and that leads me to be, I think, more objective, right? I don't think of it as protecting my budget or my set of things or whatever. I think about what is going to be best for the business if we're trying to achieve this. If I can chip into that and we can think about pooling our resources to achieve that, then that's a good thing. And I try to do that within my teams, as well, so that we're more collaborative and we're thinking about the bigger picture. And I think that's more motivating, right? Because when you are reductive and you think, I own this thing and only this thing and then you go off and then, suddenly your world becomes very small. So I think that's also led to growth for me and my teams over time. So those are some of the kind of things that I try to do as a leader and be as a leader.
Charles Day (16:13):
You mentioned getting a seat at the table and then various tables thereafter. I've talked to a number of women on this podcast over the last eight years now about that evolution in their journey. And a lot of them have talked about the struggle they had with trying to figure out, they didn't use this word, but essentially how do you game that situation so that you can contribute? Because a lot of times, you would know far better than I, but a lot of times you show up at a table like that, and you're not exactly welcomed with open arms in many situations. And you're not necessarily turned to and looked to to say, OK, what's your point of view?
How have you navigated that transition? How have you not only gained a seat at the table, but then been able to use that seat at the table to benefit the company?
Amy Martin Ziegenfuss (16:57):
Yeah, it's such a good question. And it is something that think women, people of color, you know, a lot of a lot of people struggle with it, just because, you know, the tables are already full. And they tend to be full of people who look like each other, think like each other. So it's hard sometimes to work your way in. You know, I've been sponsored by others, by men and women who have themselves gained a seat at that table. And then, you know, I have, you know, proven myself or added value to them. And so they have brought me along in a lot of cases. And then I have done that for other people or I've tried to, and I will continue to try to do that. I think the table can get bigger. I don't think it's about… it's one in, one out. I do think there's room for expansion and room for more voices around the table. And so I think that's been how I've gotten there. And then, as I said earlier, what drives me is making an impact. And so I've always tried to come in, especially with marketing, which can be seen as pretty pictures and TV commercials, and that's some of it, for sure. But I try to come in with a very grounded in data point of view, bringing the consumer and customer insights to the table, bringing things that I know will help those around the table understand more of what my area can do for the business. So keeping it grounded in that and taking out anything that feels a little more subjective or less, less sort hard hitting, I suppose.
And then once you've proven that out, right, then you have more scope for conversations that maybe are broader. I also make sure that I don't enter those tables cold, that I do have, I've already talked to people, gotten a temp check on what I'm going to talk about and bring in. Do they think it's valuable? Do they think I'm coming at it the right way? What questions, you know, do they think I'm going to get when I walk into that exec committee or board room, right? Some of those things, as well, have been really helpful.
Charles Day (19:01):
That's a great point. I was about to ask you, actually, how you found your voice and how quickly you found your voice, but you've given me that answer by preparation and by actually, planning for this is what having a seat at this table means and this is the contribution that I need to make and want to make within that concept.
Amy Martin Ziegenfuss (19:12):
Yeah.
That's right. And understanding from those who are already at that table, you know, what are the conversations that are happening? Is this going to be the way it will be received well or not? What questions do you have for me? You know, that sort of thing, because, you know, learning from them. And the thing is, I always find people are willing to share their knowledge if you ask them, especially if you go one to one.
I mean, everybody loves to be asked for their advice, right? And you can learn so much from that. So, you know, they've been in those rooms longer than I ever have. So, yeah, so that's really, really helpful usually.
Charles Day (19:54):
It is extraordinary how true that is, that people are willing to share if you simply ask them the question. It's also extraordinary how rarely that happens. I found very early in my career, made a pretty, for back then, dramatic shift from being an account guy to a producer, which nobody made that shift in an agency back in the day. And I did that largely by going to producers and saying, what is this job about and how do you do it well? And, you know, what are the things you have to learn and who are the best people to work with?
And you could write a thesis on the answers they gave me. I mean, it was really extraordinary. People feel, so many people I think feel like they have to do it themselves and prove to everybody that they can do it themselves. And it's a vulnerability, I think, right? I mean, I think the best leaders, to the point we were making earlier, actually have a great deal of self-awareness about strengths and vulnerabilities. What should they feel and what should they know, as we've said. And I'm not afraid to demonstrate the fact I don't know the answer to this question. You probably do. Can you give me some insights?
Amy Martin Ziegenfuss (20:36):
That's right. That's right. And that is something I didn't mention that I should have. I really tried to set that stage for my team and me both because I need it, because I need their expertise and I need their answers, but also because I want them to know they shouldn't expect to know everything. So my leadership team, when we meet, it is a conversation amongst all of us and it is about the problems of the day, the challenges that we're facing. And I ask a lot of questions, how would you do this? What are you worried about? What do you think we should do?
Wanting to get that information and always saying, I don't have the answer. I have some ideas, I have some hypotheses, but I want you to help me pressure test those, right? And to your point, I do think that sometimes people think when they're thinking about their next job or where they want to go or whatever it is, they think, well, I can't say I don't have that experience or I can't let on, right? But actually, nobody's sitting there thinking, oh, there's a big gap there. No, they probably don't even realize that's what you want to do. And they'd be willing to share, just as you learned to be a producer by talking to producers. Wow. What a clever way to—
Charles Day (21:57):
What a concept.
Amy Martin Ziegenfuss (21:58):
Yeah, what a concept.
But I mean, that's exactly right. And I've done that over time, too. Talk to people who I admire and want to be more like or have their remit someday. And they've been really gracious and willing to share. And I think that's wonderful. And I try to pay that forward as well.
Charles Day (22:17):
It's a really scalable quality to bring to the table if you walk in the doors with that, I think, as a starting point. Let's talk about creativity for a second. Creativity has been banded around for the last several years, I think, within kind of increasing, I don't know, reverence in some places, question in others.
Where do you stand on the conversation around creativity? Where does creativity sit in its importance to you from a business leadership standpoint? Well, first of all, how do you define it? How do you define creativity?
Amy Martin Ziegenfuss (22:46):
Yeah, I mean, that's actually where I was going to start. So thank you for that follow up question. I think to me, creativity is about finding solutions to business problems, right, that are unique, are not what the category or everybody else is doing, that are going to create leverage for your company, for your brand, for your business, whatever that is. Finding, you know, I think it takes creativity to find, you know, the consumer insight that's going to unlock, right, the opportunity for you as a business. So to me, that's what creativity is. And that to me is at the core, should be at the core of every brand and every business because ultimately you have to have that to win. And then there is of course, more specifically, creativity in marketing and creativity in how your brand shows up in the world and some of those more maybe traditional, you know, sort of definitions of it, which, you know, obviously are still important as you kind of move along that spectrum of, how are you going to solve those business challenges or opportunities. Creativity in your marketing and in your positioning is going to be a part of that. So that's kind how I think about it. So I do think it's at the core of everything we do. I think, you know, of course, GenAI and everything that is coming along these days is going to, you know, change and enhance in some ways and evolve the way that we do some of those things, obviously. But I don't think that changes that it's always going to be at the core. So I really think to me, it's funny, I don't think of myself as a creative, but I do think of myself as someone who leverages creativity at the core of business and marketing strategy.
Charles Day (24:36):
That sort of distinction you paint, I think, comes up quite a lot in my work. I'm not a creative, but… in fact, I use this example more than once recently, but I think it's vivid. I was interviewing Morgan Flatley a couple of years ago, the CMO of McDonald's, and she said, I'm not creative. She didn't say I'm not a creative, she said, I'm not creative. And I said, respectfully, there's no chance you're the CMO of McDonald's without being highly creative.
And I do wonder whether we should be paying more attention to the language that we use, right? Because I think the industry that you and I have spent most of our careers in, or all of our careers in, has always distinguished the creative people from everybody else. And I think to your point, and I see this all the time, the best business, call them account people, right? The best of those are highly creative thinkers.
The best strategists are clearly incredibly creative thinkers. And I wonder whether we do the industry as a disservice and the people within it as a disservice when we keep saying creative versus people who therefore by definition are not creative. Do you think we should think more about the language and the descriptions?
Amy Martin Ziegenfuss (25:39):
I think that, yes, I do think that's important because I do think language matters because otherwise you make things sort of diffuse, right? You lose the crispness of the definition and especially now when creativity is under threat as some people are saying. And I think it's way too broad of a term to really say that, right? You can say the execution of creative advertising and marketing is evolving, right? Because of GenAI and other things, but to say that creativity itself is on the wane is ridiculous, right? Like that's just, to your point, it's way too at the core of what businesses do every day and strategic marketers do every day to say some people are creative and some people are not doesn't actually make any sense. So I do think that's important.
We struggled a little bit with that at Carnival just as a funny little aside, because at Carnival we keep saying we stand for fun, but fun is too broad, like creative, right? Like, what cruise is not fun?
Every cruise is fun, right? We have a particular brand of fun that we are trying to get more specific about that is like this activated, energetic atmosphere. That's different. It's a vibe, right? You’ve got to kind of parse that out a little bit. So I think, I do think you end up doing yourself a disservice if you let a word become too broad and sort of you lose precision of it.
Charles Day (27:11):
So given that we both agree on the importance of creativity, what are the conditions that you try to create from a leadership standpoint that unlock creativity or promote it within your organization?
Amy Martin Ziegenfuss (27:22):
Yeah, so I think to your point earlier, I think strategy and strategists are the most creative of the people in our sphere. And so I believe having that incredibly strong strategic underpinning and foundation, obviously, arrived at and fed by consumer insights, is the way to unlock creativity for everyone. Not just for the creatives, to your point, and those who manifest the strategy. Maybe we should call them manifestors. I'm not sure. But I think that's the way to unlock creativity. You get really, really, really, really crisp on what problem are we trying to solve or what challenge or what opportunity is there. And then you go and you spend the time to really sort of develop the strategy for that then, and you have the right people feeding into that, right? So that you're creating it in a way that is crisp and precise enough, but also broad enough, right? That it has the legs and the breadth that is needed to really push the brand forward. And then you let everybody loose on it.
Once it's built, then everybody gets to come in and consider how they are going to action against that strategy, obviously with lots of collaboration, but letting those people figure out… the social experts do their thing, the product experts do their thing, The media experts are doing their thing. Again, obviously it's all interwoven, but the way that we manifest that on owned channels versus out in the world in advertising versus in activations versus on board our ships, right? In the experience, it's going to be very, very different. So that's why I think that has to start with that. And then it's about really, really letting the people who know their, their thing, their expertise, their channel, whatever it is, their customer, letting them go to work.
Charles Day (29:18):
I've increasingly recognized that every act of creativity requires an emotional leap of faith, that if you're going to put a, by definition, fragile thought out into the world, that's more likely to happen in an environment in which you feel safe, supported, encouraged to do that. And if we look at the companies that have been most successful from a creative standpoint over the last 30 or 40 years, one of the qualities that they tend to exhibit is that they've created a culture and an environment that absolutely does provide that kind of sensibility, that it does allow and encourage and almost expect you to put your most vulnerable thinking out on the table.
How do you as a leader go about creating the emotional safety that allows people to give you their best and most vulnerable ideas?
Amy Martin Ziegenfuss (30:02):
Yeah, it's such a good point because I do think even in the last five years, it's eroded. think it's certainly from when I started out, it's much, much different. In some ways, there's more allowance for it because there's more understanding of creating that sort of environment, right, than there was when probably when you and I started, where it was just, you know, keep your head down and get on with it. And if you messed up, you were, you know, in it.
But having said that, I do think it's a more vulnerable environment geopolitically and also with social media, right? You're sort of exposed all the time, right? And so as a brand and the individuals who are on that brand, so it is tough.
My philosophy is I have to support my people and ultimately I'm accountable and if something they do, which I have supported, goes sideways and pear-shaped, I'm the one and that's fine. That's why I'm in my seat. The good thing, though, is if you build the right environment and the right relationships with your team, they're never going to be sticking their neck out in a way that is going to put that at risk, right? Because they're going to take calculated risks, right? And they're going to make sure that you know, if there is a risk they're feeling a little bit, you know, concerned about, they're going to be talking to you about that. You know, and then if I feel like I need to get air cover, I'll go up and get that air cover. So I think, you know, I think it's a combination of let them know they're supported, let them know that, you know, you're never going to have them take the fall. But at the same time, they need to have a context, so that they can make the right decisions and calls and bring you in where it's needed. So I think it's just a bit of a combination of that.
And then there's a lot of as well, you know, a lot that we do with the environment, particularly with a brand like ours that is so experiential and we have, you know, hundreds of thousands of people a day, you know, on our ships and millions a year, you know, so there's stuff that's happening all the time. So we definitely are always keeping a pulse on, know, what's, what are the conversations that are happening out there? What's the tone and tenor of those conversations? And we are ready to take things down and dial things back if we need to, if things are happening that make that necessary. So I think we're all very alert, plugged into that, if that makes sense.
Charles Day (32:13):
Yeah, no, it totally does. I think some people, quite a lot of people are not really fully conscious of the kind of global impact of a brand like yours, right? And obviously there are others, as well. But there are certain brands that have such enormous global reach and global recognition. There is, to your point, there is so much day-to-day data coming in, so many situations and dynamics that can, again, you would know better than I, but it can upend the most careful planning and thinking that's been going on for months, and suddenly this one event happens and you're into scramble, reactive mode.
Is that part of the way that you have to build an organizational structure and a culture in the organization that you run? I mean, you have to be able to live at both ends of that spectrum, both the intensely planned, highly strategic, this is what we're going to do when it all goes right, and literally the house is on fire. We have to put this out as quickly as possible.
Amy Martin Ziegenfuss (33:07):
Yes, they live in tandem because they have to, exactly as you said. And I think the thing that we've done with the plan and the, you know, the multi-millions that we spend in our marketing is we create it as flexibly as we can so that, and we have everybody in the tent if something does happen that's unfortunate and disruptive that we can go dark very, very quickly or move things around or do the right thing. We never want to be tone deaf or be disrespectful inadvertently. So we have all that built in with our agencies and our teams across the business. And then we have the people on the ground who are on the reactive front to your point, doing the listening, the customer service, all those things. They're really, really nimble integrated teams who work together the minute anything happens. There's a chain that happens immediately and the right people are on it and managing and doing the damage control, know, working with our guests if that's part of it, etc. And, you know, and the great thing is the leaders were informed, but we are not the ones who are, you know, it's not going all the way up the chain and then back down, right? It happens at the right level. And we're in the know and we can obviously, of course we were talking about it and leaning in where we need to but the teams on the ground are handling it and that's how it has to happen because otherwise it would be far too slow.
Charles Day (34:32):
It is the mark, I think, of a great modern brand to be able to deal at multiple levels and have the right level of authority out there. I remember being eternally impressed by the fact that I had a problem with an iPhone. And I walked into the Apple store at 59th and 5th in New York at 1 AM. And there was somebody there who had the authority to take my phone and hand me a brand new one, which was about a, I don't know what it was at the time, a $1,200 exchange.
It was a significant thing. And I remember thinking that is the sign of a really smart organization, that they have empowered people at that level to be able to take care of me. And 10 years later, and many thousands of dollars have bought Apple products. It turned out to be a pretty good investment on their part.
Amy Martin Ziegenfuss (35:18):
Exactly. They took a long-term view and that's smart. Yes.
Charles Day (35:23):
People will never have a job like this. The kind of visibility of it, the size of it, the impact of it. What's it really like to have a job like this? When you wake up in the morning, what occupies your consciousness?
Amy Martin Ziegenfuss (35:37):
Yeah, it's, I think I said before, both a privilege and a responsibility, right? Sometimes I feel the weight of it. Sometimes I'm frankly, it's kind of a disbelief almost that you're sitting in the seat you're sitting in, that's a vulnerability piece, right? It's the imposter syndrome a little bit. I mean, I know I have the competencies and I know, you know, it's funny, it's not the day-to-day job so much, I can do it.
Interesting how suddenly, I don't know if this happened to you, but suddenly you've accumulated this experience and you actually know what likely needs to be done. You don't have all the answers as we discussed, but you have a pretty good sense and a pretty good roadmap. So it's interesting, but then you sort of think about, wow, this is a 53 year old brand and I am, you know, on the hook for it. It's pretty, you know, you don't want to mess it up. I mean, my goodness, right? You don't want to do anything that's going to harm the brand. So it's, a, it's a weighty responsibility. And I do think about those things and you know, the things that are… obviously the business, how the business is performing are some of the things I'm thinking about, the challenges. How are we getting the right growth from the right target customer groups? How are we protecting the brand and its reputation, because we are so well known and we therefore are sort of a beacon, and so that comes with great things and it comes with other things. Those are definitely some of the things I'm thinking about all the time.
But I also know I am one of many amazing leaders who are so impressive across the organization. And so I know I'm not alone and I have great relationships across the organization and we tackle these things together and I have an amazing team. So, and that extends to our agency partners, as well. So I definitely don't feel like it's just on me, but at the same time, it does confer a great responsibility, as well. But then, you also have a great sense of pride when you do make things happen again with the village that it takes to drive the brand forward. I mean, there's a great sense of pride.
We launched our first, I'm going to call it a private island. It's technically an exclusive destination because it's part of a larger island on Grand Bahama, this past summer. And it was, you know, the culmination of many years of work across the organization. And for my team and me, we had to market this thing two years before it even existed. It wasn't built yet. But we were launching the sailings, opening the sailings that were going to go there. So we had to get people excited to book the sailings that were going to go there in two years time. So we had to come up with ways to market this thing that didn't exist, that was a beach, basically, and a sandpit. And we figured out ways to do it and the creativity that was involved in that, in marketing something that literally we had a rendering of, that wasn't a very good rendering. You know, that was an incredible challenge. And when we achieved it and it became the most searched destination before it was even open over our competitions who had open destinations, just, I mean, you can imagine the pride that comes with that, right? So it's pretty cool. So you get those moments and that sort of makes it all worthwhile.
Charles Day (38:55):
Yeah, talk about being a storyteller. The ability to tell a story of something that doesn't even exist yet, yeah, that is a moment. You mentioned imposter syndrome. I ask this question increasingly, I think, of almost every guest, because I haven't found anybody who doesn't admit that they suffer from it. To what extent does it play a role in your leadership and in your life? And then how do you embrace it or deal with it when it does show up?
Amy Martin Ziegenfuss (39:22):
Yeah, I think, you know, I have my support groups, my colleagues and friends and personal board. I'm sure you've heard people talk about that before, who I go to when I'm feeling like I'm really not up to the task. They help you reground yourself because they know you. They know you as a human. They know your integrity. They know your professional capabilities. And so they can help reflect back to you that you actually do know a thing or two when you're feeling like you don't.
So I think that's really important to create that support network and to not stay in your own head about it because I think that's where you start to spin up, and your insecurities take over and that leads to bad behaviors all around for your own personal mental health and for those around you. So I think that's an important part of it. And I think, again, re-grounding in, you don't have to have all the answers, right? Being in a role doesn't mean that you literally know everything there is to know about the role, but you know where to go to get the answers, you know what resources you need, you know what you need to do to swat up yourself if that's the thing you need to do, or whatever the things are. It's more about that than it is about always having the right answer. And getting comfortable saying, you know what, I really want to go check the data on that, or I really want to come back to you with a thoughtful response, before just kind of slinging from the hip when you're asked a question from leadership. So I think it's kind of a combination of all those things. But that personal support system and board, think, is the best way to combat imposter syndrome that I've found.
Charles Day (41:00):
How conscious have you been about casting that as your career has evolved? I mean, I think it's the perfect advice. It's absolutely the right thing to do. It's just that very few people really do it with any kind of intention, I think. They don't mindfully say, wouldn't it be great to have four or five people around me who bring a variety of experiences and perspectives and value sets, actually, depending on the moment. How conscious have you been about casting it?
Amy Martin Ziegenfuss (41:29):
Yeah, I think it started off more organically than that. It's a fair point. And then I've become more conscious over time, it's become a need to have, as you said, different voices for different challenges and opportunities. So, you know, if it's something for my personal career, I have a set, a couple of people who I go to for that because they've just always been my mentors and my sounding boards on that. If it's more the imposter syndrome, people I've worked with in the trenches together, right, who are leaders in their own right, they're a better place to help me with those things. So now I've sort of got it where I have it more curated, I suppose, over time, but it of started to bubble and then I realized, I need to think about this a little more purposefully. And so that's kind of how I've done it now.
Charles Day (42:19):
Yeah, as I said, I think it is so critical for leaders to have that group of people around them that they can really rely on to give them wise, objective, empathetic, insightful, and sometimes just firm counsel.
Amy Martin Ziegenfuss (42:31):
Yes.
Yes, absolutely. One thing I should mention too is when I did come out of my role at Hilton where I was pretty senior and had a broad remit, but I was within a marketing organization rather than leading the whole marketing organization, to this role where I am now leading the marketing organization across an organization, that is, I'm within a different kind of organization.
When my peers are not other marketeers, they are other operational leaders and other leaders at the business commercial leaders and things, that changed it a little bit, because I did need to then make sure I had a few more people who were also in that situation so that I could go to them for advice and sounding board and exactly as you said, kind of wise counsel who were sitting in a similar seat.
Charles Day (43:14):
Mm.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, as you were saying earlier, there's so much knowledge and insight out there if we're just willing to take the time and ask for it.
If you could roll the clock back and talk to yourself as a 20-year-old, what would you tell her today?
Amy Martin Ziegenfuss (43:32):
Absolutely.
I think I would tell her to to take a deep breath. I was very ambitious, very energetic, kind of a steamroller. So I'd say take a deep breath. You're doing great. Listen and learn.
You know, I was anxious to make my mark as we talked about impact, make an impact. That will come, find your moments. You know, don't feel like you have to do it in every meeting and every conversation. And also, that you do have something to contribute. It's not the volume of the contributions, but the sort of quality of them. I think that, you know, is what you need to curate and think about. And to think about, because I did used to think that it was more of a race and that someone else had to lose for me to win. And I don't believe that anymore. And I'm not playing that game anymore. Even if it exists in some places, that's not my game. I think I wish I'd realized that sooner. I still was collaborative in all those things, but I still was like with an edge, like, I don't want to give you all my secrets because you know, and so I just, I just think now we rise together. So that's definitely something I would tell my younger self.
Charles Day (45:00):
Yeah, I think that is so important the idea that it's not a race. I used to get so wrapped up like a lot of people, I think, in the idea of legacy and, you know, what have we achieved? And I've had a couple of experiences on a personal level recently through people dying around me. And you look at their lives and you think, you know, you were so focused on achievement. And I don't know that you left that much behind, really,
The quest that I think is interesting is to answer the question, what else do I want to find out about myself? Like, I think that opens up really interesting doors and really interesting possibilities and makes one look at oneself, I think, in a more helpful way and perhaps less judgmental. And I think definitely more optimistic.
As you look at the future, what are you hopeful for?
Amy Martin Ziegenfuss (45:53):
I guess I'm hopeful to continue to, to be able to do the thing I love to do while making a positive impact, both on the business, but on the people around me. To your point, I think the idea of legacy for me anymore is more about what people remember about how I made them feel and not, you know, the things I achieve necessarily. Yes, those will be things along the way. But even when we talked about the island that we just talked about, right? I talked about the feeling that it created, right? That's, I think, what's lasting, not the things so much. So I think the opportunity to do that and to give back, honestly, you know, it's weird. Suddenly I'm sitting at 30 years of a career, right? And it's like, how do you give back more? How do you find the next chapter that will enable me to do that when my time has played out doing these kinds of roles.? That's what I'm really interested in is, how do I do that? And I don't know if that will be in marketing or in other ways, but that's for me what I'm excited about. And to your point, it's a little bit of a journey of self-discovery too, of, what am I capable of and what will I learn?
Charles Day (46:58):
Yeah, absolutely. I really want to thank you for coming on the show. I really appreciate your honesty, your competence, your willingness to share so openly. I think that, as we've said, leadership has so many different qualities to it. And I think the more humanity and self-awareness we can bring to it, that just creates the strongest platform on which we can start to help other people do extraordinary things. So I really wish you nothing but success going forward.
Amy Martin Ziegenfuss (47:23):
Thank you, and you as well, Charles. Thanks for the conversation. And I love that you're looking at creativity through new angles. I think that's really well-needed. So it's been fun.
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