Erin Riley of TBWA
Do you know what you're doing and why you're doing it?
"FEARLESS CREATIVE LEADERSHIP" PODCAST - TRANSCRIPT
Episode 291: Erin Riley
Do you know what you’re doing — and why you’re doing it?
In this episode of Fearless Creative Leadership, Charles Day speaks with Erin Riley, CEO of TBWA, about leadership in an industry undergoing profound change. As consolidation reshapes the advertising landscape and creativity faces new pressures from data and AI, Erin reflects on the qualities leaders need most today: self-awareness, integrity, and the courage to make decisions when certainty doesn’t exist.
She shares how storytelling shaped her leadership style, why creative cultures depend on vulnerability and trust, and what it means to protect the “soul” of an organization while integrating new teams and histories. Erin also discusses imposter syndrome, the hidden power of micro-behaviors, and the tension leaders must balance between empathy and decisiveness.
This is a thoughtful conversation about honorable leadership, creative courage, and the responsibility of guiding people and ideas through uncertain times.
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Charles Day (03:43):
Erin, welcome to Fearless. Thank you so much for coming on the show.
Erin Riley (03:47):
Thank you for having me, Charles.
Charles Day (03:50):
When did creativity first show up in your life? When are you first conscious that creativity is a force in the world?
Erin Riley (03:56):
Yeah, I mean, I don't know if I was conscious at the time, but upon reflection, I realized that I think my family was actually quite creative, not in the traditional sense in that I had artist parents, but I grew up with a big Irish family on my dad's side. And so there was lots of storytelling and lots of humor. And I think sort of the art of capturing a crowd with a tale was something I learned from, you know, Irish uncles and two Irish aunts, you know, often. And then my mother's side was smaller, but Italian, so no less gregarious. But she was an elementary teacher, when I was very, very young. And so there were always sort of art projects and visual ways of sort of representing things. And so, yeah, not probably direct creativity, but indirect, I think, creativity that probably shaped me.
Then, you know, I know, as I was in university and I went originally to study journalism and political science, but very quickly discovered marketing and advertising and instantly the appeal of intersecting art and creativity with sort of business and culture, what was instantly appealing to me.
Charles Day (05:22):
How did you express yourself growing up? What did you do as a kid?
Erin Riley (05:26):
I talked a lot, and I talk a lot.
I remember taking art lessons as a child, but I actually do think talking was probably my most expressive medium. I did a lot of student leadership things, and so again, from an early age, I don't think I was thinking I want to be a leader of people.
But I enjoyed working in teams and committees and having a point of view and driving the point of view forward and planning events and those kinds of things.
Charles Day (06:05):
I don’t think anyone's ever answered that question in that way. I'm so interested by your reflection that you spoke a lot, that that was your medium of choice. Were you known as the kid who talks a lot? What was the environment in which you reflect back and say, yeah, I talked a lot?
Erin Riley (06:21):
Yeah, I think so. I, you know, when I was very young, I spent a lot of time with my mom and my, I spent a lot of time with adults when I was younger, with my mom and my grandmother, you know, around a kitchen table and they were just talking and talking and talking. And I think I was pretty verbal. I talked early. And so, you know, and as I said, again, a lot of storytelling and talking in my home. And then among my friend group, you know, I was never at a loss for an opinion or a quip and you know, back then, to be honest, I mean…
Back then, I make it sound like it was, you know, but it feels like a long time ago that, we weren't gaming, we weren't FaceTiming. We were talking, you know, we would go out after school and sit around and eat ice cream and talk. We would talk on the phone. We would talk, like that was sort of the way that we were interacting and inter-relating. And then because I did pursue some student leadership things, you know, giving speeches and those kind of things were kind of early parts of my development.
Charles Day (07:23):
Do you think storytelling is learned or is that something that some people are built with, the ability to tell great stories?
Erin Riley (07:31):
I think it's probably both. I think that there are certainly people that are just born with a talent for storytelling. It's instinctual. They just have a sense of how to tap into the imagination of people or draw people in. Now, I think there are methods of storytelling that can be honed as a craft and can be studied. I'm not sure you can...
I believe in all things, and certainly creativity and storytelling, there is a bit of magic that is just inherent, innate, that you cannot teach, and that's what probably separates the good from the great. But yeah, I think it's a bit of both. I think if you grow up certainly around a lot of storytelling or in environments where people are comfortable expressing themselves, you are more likely to develop that and be good at it. But yeah, I think it's probably like anything else. People are born with natural superpowers and other people can put a lot of work and effort into, you know, developing the method.
Charles Day (08:33):
Is it a big part of your leadership? Do you think of yourself as a storyteller?
Erin Riley (08:37):
I think it is. I mean, I don't know that I think of myself so much as a storyteller. I believe I'm in the business of telling stories. And I guess I tell a story of a sort, you know, increasingly a story about P&Ls and consolidations and less maybe about other things. But yeah, I mean, ultimately, I think what we're doing is telling stories about brands. And I think in my own leadership style, expressing myself, you know, whether it's in intimate exchanges or more public ones or written, is a big part of how I lead. You know, I'm not particularly, you know, an introvert. You know, I probably have a more extroverted style and I am an external processor. So for me to think things through, I need to talk them through.
And I do think as leaders, we are telling a story of sorts to our people.
To get them to buy into something, to believe in something. I mean, that certainly worked for me. The companies that I have felt the most loyal to and the most connected to are the ones that have a lore, that have a story, that have a theme, that have a mission, have artifacts that represent their story, because that's what I can sort of sign up for. So I do think, whether it's an individual story that I'm telling or it's the story about my brand or the brands that we represent, I think it's, yeah, it's kind of the constant mode that we're in.
Charles Day (10:09):
There's a lot of self-awareness in that answer, the recognition that you need to talk things through in order to clear your thinking. When did you learn that about yourself? How long have you been conscious of the fact that I need to have a conversation to get clear about where I think we should go?
Erin Riley (10:26):
Yeah, I think probably more recently, again, I probably wasn't very conscious or reflective about how I was doing, what I was doing for much of my career, because you're just in sort of “do” mode. But I think probably in the last five or so years, as I've been more thoughtful probably about my leadership, as I've become more senior, and I think realized that leadership is, I think, something that is also… you're just kind of born with those instincts, but really it's like any other craft or muscle. It needs to be studied and learned and, you know, you need to spend some time thinking about it. I've spent more time consciously thinking about it.
And then I think honestly becoming more, like, just more conscious of the behavior, like thinking, I see what I just did there. You know, I had to work that through. I had to talk it through. And, you know, I think my teams also, you know, have maybe in jest been like, you know, you're not the most concise person. You know, our meetings don't ever end on time, but usually they say it, you know, most times it's worth it because we really get through things to complete, we resolve an issue. So we might run over, but we get to a resolution. We have a substantive conversation. We go along on the journey. You do listen, you know, to us. But I think it's been reflected back to me as well that like, you know, there's a lot of talking to get to the decision.
Charles Day (11:59):
You must have created a trusting environment for that conversation to happen in the first place.
Erin Riley (12:05):
Yeah, I would like to think so. I had the good fortune now of being, you know, where I am at TBWA for almost 10 years. And, you know, some of my closest partners have been on that journey with me the whole time. So, you build that kind of trust over time where we can, you know, be honest with each other about what's good, what's bad. I mean, the other thing that I felt pretty strongly about was group team coaching.
And vulnerability, you know, was a very big part of what we were trying to develop together. So it sort of set the stage for people to be pretty honest in a way that maybe they wouldn't have if it wasn't facilitated and it wasn't sort of permitted. And I think that was very helpful for us to all be able to say those kind of things to each other, the good and the bad.
Charles Day (12:54):
Were there any startling revelations coming out of that process?
Erin Riley (12:57):
You know, when people share back to you the impact that you have on them, good or bad, and it doesn't match your intent, I think that's always sort of a revelation. And I think we all realize, like, how much power we have over each other in, in a team or in an agency. Like, you know, you just kind of do what you do.
And you don't realize sometimes, wow, that had a profound impact on the momentum of this group, the morale of this group, or this individual has been feeling shut down by a comment that I made offhand. Or this person feels really empowered. And I thought I was just doing what you do, like, good job, do this, do that. So I think you really start to understand, much, much more how the microbe behaviors do have, like, sometimes very big impacts.
Charles Day (13:54):
Well, and by and large, we're so focused on ourselves, aren't we? We're all, most of us, I think it's fair to say, are anxious about how we're showing up in the world and are we letting people down and are we doing the right thing? And, you know, the list is endless. I saw that you had, I think on a video podcast, had talked about the self-doubt that you had when moving into, I think, this role.
How did you overcome, did you make that transition, to allow yourself to move away from the internal self-reference that I think most of us walk around with and into the more external facing? How is this impacting you? What do you need from me in order to be successful in terms of what you're doing?
Erin Riley (14:35):
Yeah, I think that we all have a bit of self-doubt. I think of myself as a fairly confident person. You know, I don't tend to shy away from opportunities to step up or do things I haven't done before. It's one of the things that I sort of give as advice to people coming up all the time, which is like, don't flinch. When you get the call, when you get the spotlight, when you get the stage, you know, take it and be assertive. So I try to do that.
But internally, I think, of course, we're all constantly battling with, you know, do I really have the skills? Do I really have the experience? Am I making the right decisions? And so I think that's kind of a constant. I mean, one way I think you move past it is by doing it, by demonstrating competence, by getting through things. I heard something recently that I thought was very interesting where someone was saying, you know, we can do things even when we're tired, even when we're scared, even when we don't have all the information. Just do the thing. Because we have all of these excuses or all of these barriers that kind of paralyze us. And so sometimes I think you get the confidence by doing the thing.
I think also as I grew in my leadership and I looked around, realized these other people don't know what they're doing either, actually. And so, you know, I might not have done this before, but I actually trust my own instinct, intellect, certainly my own integrity, empathy. You know, I started to realize that, like, I'm going to make mistakes, but I will always do things with the best intention. Like, I will go to bed every night knowing that I did things, you know, to the best of my ability and, like, in a honorable way, and that's all you can kind of, you know, ask for, and, you know, I trust that more often than not, I will get it right. And I think I was also taught very early on that it isn't all about me, it's actually about my ability to surround myself with people who are better than me or who at least are complementary to me, and so I'm not alone in it, you know. t
That's another thing, I thrive in teams. And so I don't feel alone. I don't like isolated leadership. And probably part of that's because I need someone to external process with. But also I feel better if someone is validating my choices or giving me something different to think about, or I can say, I know I'm not good at this, but you are. So I think part of me getting confidence is getting the right team.
Charles Day (17:12):
This is an impossible question to answer, but I'm going to ask you anyway. There is, as you know, there is a perennial debate, a lifelong debate about the difference in value between nature and nurture. So much of what you're saying seems to me to be about the kind of environment that you grew up in and the kind of security and safety and confidence that you were imbued with to have conversations, to sit around the table, to share opinions, to be able to reflect that maybe you didn't see it that way, but let's have a conversation about that. There's so much about that that is an incredible grounding for the kind of human leadership that you're describing. Do you, again, this is unfair, but let me ask you anyway, do you have any sense about how much of a role that background played for you in the kind of leadership that you're describing?
Erin Riley (17:59):
Yeah, I think massively. So I think that, you know, I don't know, because I'm a parent of three. So I'm constantly indulging myself in this debate because I'm trying to figure out how much can I shape these little people to be exactly what I want them to be or how much do I just have to sit back and, you know, support their journey. And, you know, obviously, it's maybe a bit of both. But I personally feel, I mean, I actually think that there is like a genetic piece of this.
You know, certainly when I look at my parents, I think they both were leaders. You father was, I think, a leader in coaching and athletics and then ultimately owned his own business. My mother was his partner in doing that. So I think there was some bit of it that was nature, but it was inherited nature. And then I do think it was nurtured very, very much.
You know, I think we sat around the dinner table and my parents listened to what I had to say. And they encouraged me to debate and push back on them as long as it was respectful. I mean, I disagreed with my dad all the time. And at the time I used to think, why is he so, you know, and now I realize he was doing, you know, he was playing the contrarian to teach me how to push a point and debate a point. And so, yeah, I think I was naturally inclined to do that, but I think they absolutely created an environment where I felt like my voice was important. And I never felt like, they're the authority, so I should defer.
So when I sat in boardrooms for the first time and the most senior person said something that I either didn't agree with or they asked my opinion, it felt very natural to say it. And I think if I had not grown up in that environment, or really an environment where my parents didn't have traditional gender norms.
You know, my father went out of his way to stress that he couldn't run his business without my mother. They constantly talked to each other. You know, my mother went on to do real estate. I don't think she did one deal without talking to my dad. My dad didn't make one financial decision without talking to my mom. They were highly dependent on each other and he gave her a lot of credit for being sort of the intellectual drive behind what they were building together. And so I didn't come in, you know, even with like a gender insecurity, which some people do.
So I think those early days of my upbringing were absolutely formative. And from a work ethic perspective, you know, for good or bad, you know, my dad owned his own business. He worked 24 hours a day. You know, we never went on vacation where he didn't bring work with him. And in some ways that probably taught me not to have boundaries, but it also taught me to treat it personally. You know, he saw... felt a personal responsibility for his workers and to keep them working and to keep their families, you know. And I think I brought that same sense of obligation into the work that I do. So, I mean, who knows? I might have had it anyways in there, but it to me was absolutely a nurture in my upbringing. And then really in my professional life as well, I then went on to have leaders and bosses who did the same thing, you know, who gave me space, who encouraged me.
Charles Day (21:17):
Have you ever been tempted to start your own business? I'm always interested in talking to people who have close proximity to either parents or siblings who've owned their own business. Because as you've said, the entrepreneurial journey is so personal. I mean, not that what you're doing is not, it's personal in different way. But having worked for big companies and built my own business, the journey of business ownership is unique. And obviously, you know that from being around your parents. Have you ever thought about that as a kind of a manifestation of who you are and finding out something else about yourself?
Erin Riley (21:46):
Yeah, I think it's a chapter maybe that's still ahead. I do think there is a part of me that is afraid. That's a big risk. And I think there is, I have, as I said, I have three kids. I am the primary, I hate to say provider because obviously that's like, we do it as a team and I don't do what I do without my husband.
Charles Day (21:58):
Mmm.
Erin Riley (22:16):
You know, the check coming kind of thing. And so I get a little bit nervous about, you know, about that risk. I think I would be entirely comfortable with the responsibility and the weight and the, you know, like, all of those things I think would be very appealing. And I've tried to work in many ways in places that allow me to feel like it's my own with, with a safety net. So I don't know. I think it's still something that appeals to me, but I think I have to be in the right place to kind of take what I see as a bit of a risk.
And I think I'd have to decide what do I really want to do? In a way, I love what I do now, but then the thought of starting my own thing, somehow I feel like I need to have, it needs to be original enough to justify me doing it in the world. Like, if I'm going to do something on my own, I want to bring something that isn't already out there. And so, you know, I don't think I've maybe spent enough time thinking about what my, you know, what my special, you know, offering would be other than, you know, just doing a good job at something that's, you know, already kind of established.
Charles Day (23:32):
Yeah, clearly makes sense. I will offer you one thought, just because I can't help but coach, sorry, it's just innate.
So the one thought I would offer you is, and I'm not trying to tempt you out of your job in any way, shape or form, so I should say that clearly. But if you get to the point where you're considering doing this and it's a possibility, the thought that I would offer you was offered to me by somebody else, and regular listeners to the podcast have heard me say this before. The question that you can answer better by running your own business than I think anything else is, what else do I want to find out about myself? As a life kind of reference point, there are aspects of that I think that only running your own business gives you the ability to answer that question with. So I just offer you that as a philosophical reference point, nothing more than that.
Erin Riley (24:13):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah. Well, I think that's interesting because I think it's tied to probably that last comment I made about what am I uniquely bringing and doing? Because I think one of the reasons that I don't start my own business besides just the risk is where I work now. At TBWA, I feel like I'm very proud of what we're offering. I believe fully that we are the best offer. So I'm like, why would I go?
Why would I just try and do that on my own? So I think thinking about what I still want to learn about myself, what I think the world would still need from me might then open up because I wouldn't just try and replicate what I think I'm already doing at the highest level.
Charles Day (24:49):
Yeah, and as you said, it sounds like what you're doing is, feels very personal, right? I mean, the length of time you've been there, like, there's a, there's a personal investment and reward in terms of what you're doing at the moment. You said earlier that you hadn't had any sort of great ambition initially to become a leader. Some people, as you know, do. They have, from very early in life, they gravitate naturally into that or have ambition for that. You said you did not. When did the idea of leading show up for you and how did you respond to that potential, that possibility?
Erin Riley (25:35):
Yeah. I think as you ask me that question, I think I probably have to admit that I was not maybe being truthful when I said that before, because the truth is, I think I probably always knew that I wanted to be a leader because I'm the oldest child. And so from the moment I had a sibling, I was going to be a leader. I think probably what I meant was, you know, that view of I'm just going to dominate people. You know, like my, my… what drew me to leadership was not the idea of maybe ordering people around, although that's probably a lie, too, because that's, I think, part of my personality. So I probably did realize fairly early on that I liked being in a position of leading others.
But that probably really came in again in high school. I mean, as dorky as it sounds, there was an opportunity to be in the state student council, state student government, and host a conference at your school and run to be the head of that conference and the head of the state. And I went for that. And so I think I was maybe a sophomore, freshman or sophomore. And that was undeniably a leadership position. And it very much appealed to me. So I think probably pretty early on.
And I do also think, you know, seeing my parents run their own business, you know, I didn't grow up with an example of like, mom and dad in a corporate structure where they had a boss and, you know, so I think probably I always thought, well, I'll do something that allows me to feel that, you know, feel that way. So yeah, I think probably I need to revise the tape on, on that one. I probably did always feel like, you know, or at least was always drawn to those kinds of things and then once, I do think I'm pretty ambitious, so once I was in the working world there was no doubt that I was going to try and get, you know, as high as high as I could.
Charles Day (27:40):
And has leading been what you thought it would be? How has it lived up to its potential?
Erin Riley (27:48):
I mean, I think it's probably far more complex than I, you know, I think I probably naively early on was like, that's great. You get to be in charge. Nobody tells you what to do. Boy, is that wrong. Someone is always telling you what to do. I mean, I made that mistake when I went client side. I thought, you know, I had started my career agency and creative advertising agency and I thought, okay, this, you know, I've enjoyed it so, so, so much, but I'm plateauing anyways in my maybe skill development, but I need to control my own destiny. And it seems like that's what happens on the client side. So I went there and then I realized, my God, now you're just closer to the sun. There’s always someone that is sort of telling you what to do. So I think the probably freedom of leadership was something that did not manifest, you know, and I think the weight of leadership was probably not something that I could have anticipated, you know. Like, how much responsibility you have for people. Again, you know, I take it pretty seriously that decisions I make have a direct impact on people's ability to, like, feed their families. And that's a pretty serious thing. And I think it is something that we should feel directly because the decisions we make, you know, matter and we should have that. But then there are other parts that, probably do fulfill the idea that you can have an idea and you can rally people around it and that you can do things that matter. And then you do have quite a lot of, you know, autonomy and empowerment if you're working in the right environments. I mean, again, I've been at TBWA for 10 years. I worked at BBH for almost 10 years because I had leaders that gave me space that gave me autonomy, that gave me the opportunity to have my own ideas and shape the trajectory of the business. That was deeply fulfilling. And so that bit has been as rewarding as I probably imagined it to be.
Charles Day (29:58):
How do you live with that responsibility? How do you wake up in the morning with, where does that sit on you in the morning?
Erin Riley (30:05):
Yeah, I mean, I've had to have it sit, I think, in different places because I think for a while, you know, I often think about my leadership in terms of, like, empathy and excellence, you know, sort of coexisting.
And I'm kind of constantly trying to balance those things. And so there have been times, I think, in my career as a leader where I might have been too focused on the emotional responsibility, the human responsibility, the caretaking of people. I used to think to myself, God, I have to give this person either very critical feedback or I need to fire them. And they have to go home and tell their wife. And that's going to be, you know, really hard for them. And then I wouldn't do it. Then it was paralyzing me. I wasn't making decisions because I was so paralyzed by the human impact and that responsibility and obligation. And I think someone had to say to me, you are so concerned about that individual's feelings that you are putting a hundred other people in peril by not acting decisively. And you have to think about the things that you're responsible for and they're responsible for.
You're not responsible for what their wife thinks about you; you're responsible for giving them clear directions, supporting them, but they have to ultimately rise to the challenge. And so that helped me, I think, to check that a little bit, because I think empathy and that sense of obligation to the, to the humans that you lead is a very, powerful and good thing in your leadership. But if unchecked, I think it's paralyzing. And I think it keeps you actually from being a better leader for those people, or at least for the collective.
Charles Day (31:45):
Yeah, I think that's so well said. I have long believed that the organization, the institution is essentially a newborn infant that is helpless and has nobody to take care of it if the leader doesn't take care of it. And when the leader prioritizes the individual over the infant, then there's only one outcome, right? The infant eventually dies as a result of that. And so it's interesting because in my time coaching, which is, gosh, I don't know, 15 years plus now, I think the single biggest issue that I've seen people confronted by is this inability to confront and deal with people who just don't meet the standards of the organization for all the reasons you've just described. And it's only when they make that shift and recognize their responsibility as the organization, in fact, not the individual, that you start to see things improve.
Erin Riley (32:37):
Yeah, yeah, I think, I mean, I think that's been one of the, you know, hardest learnings, but biggest learnings for me as a leader is how to, you know, how to balance those things and how to make those very, very hard decisions that will upset someone, you know, but that that is not ultimately my job as a leader. It's kind of the same thing I think about as a parent. Like, my job is not to make my kids happy all the time. My job is to make them resilient and, you know, functional and, you know, self-reliant and that doesn't mean that I can't nurture them and that there are times where, you know, I need to be empathy first and, you know, instructional second. But I can't always just be like, well, don't ever feel anything other than happiness because they're ultimately not going to learn. And so I think as a parent and as a leader that's the, you know, my… because I think I'm a Libra. So I like everything in balance. I don't love conflict, don't like, you know, like, I'm trying to kind of keep harmony. And so, you know, emotional conflict, interpersonal conflict, you know, I don't mind debating ideas. That's fine. But, you know, things that I think are going to hurt you, that's something that I have to work through. You know, I have to be very consciously thinking like, this is, I'm not hurting this person. Feedback is a gift. Feedback is a gift. You know, I have to sort of repeat to myself and not being honest with this person is not doing them any favors or the organization or me as a leader. But that was something that was a harder lesson for me to learn and something that still today I have to really consciously practice. But I've gotten much better at it. I think you get burned a few times by that and you're like, yeah, no, I need to accelerate decision-making. I need to, you know, I started picking up that that was, that people appreciated that I was so thoughtful, but that they could see that that was delaying some hard decisions. And I didn't like that. I didn't like that narrative around myself. And so I've tried to be much decisive, even if that means someone will be hurt.
Charles Day (34:48):
So, yeah, there is, I think, there's a clock that I think applies within leadership. And what I see happening with people as they move into senior positions is the clock has to run faster and it takes them a while to realize that. And then just as you've described, the consequence of not making decisions quickly really slows everything down and it takes, it can take some time. Some people never actually learn how to do this, I think, and realizing I've got to drive this thing forward. Momentum is such a powerful part of leadership and I think only the senior leader of a company can actually provide that.
My next question is directly related to that. It also speaks to me of the tension that naturally comes with leadership. We've talked about the tension between wanting to take care of the individual and wanting to take care of the organization. And there are clearly times when the individual needs serious amounts of attention. I think within creative companies such as yours, there's endless tension between art and commerce, essentially.
How do you build a culture that's designed to maximize the creativity of the people that work there?
Erin Riley (35:51):
Yeah, I mean, I think we have to start with the fundamental belief that if we have premium creativity, we will make money. That will be the differentiator. That is our product that will ultimately lead to our own commercial success. That creativity is a commercial advantage for our clients and therefore a commercial advantage for us. I think if you separate the two, then you're, you're always at odds then. We should be making financial decisions that ultimately make our product better because that's what will make us more money. I don't think there are any other business owners that don't try and improve their product as a way of driving their own growth. Now, of course, we need to be thoughtful about how much we're investing in that versus what's actually returning and where do we get, you know, improvements to our creativity and then where are we just being, you know, either indulgent or, you know, not precise in what we're doing. But I ultimately start with the idea that the financial and the creative are, you know, inextricably linked. And so more often than not, our decisions should be aligned. I also think, though, creative cultures are different and require certain things. So we talked a little bit earlier about vulnerability and trust. And these are now, I think, much more popular in the leadership lexicon. But actually, I think they are even more important in creative companies because we are ultimately asking people to take risks, risks with their imagination, risks with their intellect.
The thing that we are creating tends to be very emotive, or I think at least is at its best when it can be emotive. We're trying to influence people. And so I think in any company where creativity or innovation is critical to its product, you have to have trust and vulnerability because people have to feel comfortable taking risks and getting it wrong. Otherwise, they never try something that hasn't been done before, and then you're just in a sea of sameness.
For us, we are constantly thinking about how do we challenge convention? How do we disrupt norms? How do we break through? These are all the things that marketers are trying to do. That takes originality and novelty and imagination. And so I think that needs to be built on vulnerability and trust. So that is a big part of the culture that we are trying to build. And that can sometimes be at odds with things that are about efficiency driving, because that often means, you know, controls and bureaucracy or difficult decisions about having to cut, you know, people and jobs. And those are all things that introduce fear and insecurity and panic and uncertainty. And I think that is at its peak at the moment because of AI and because of some of the macroeconomic conditions, you know, creative agencies and creative cultures, I think our entire existence is being questioned and our people are very aware of that. And so I'm quite curious to see if this pressure dulls creativity, which is honestly what I think has been happening, even pre-AI. I think some of the over-reliance on data, which I think is a wonderful tool, but when overused doesn't allow us to take any leaps.
You know, I think we're coming through a period where creativity has been neutered a little bit. This will either do that more because people are afraid. What I'm hoping is, it actually leads to a creative renaissance because we realize that in order to exist as a human-driven creative company, you have to be better than what machines can do on their own. And that means, you know, being bolder and being braver. That also means being smarter, of course, and harnessing the power of technology. But maybe all of this tech and all of this data and all of this marketing science will be a great equalizer on many of the things that we can optimize. And it will only be sort of the magic of creativity that will set people apart. That feels like the rallying cry at the moment for creative cultures to keep them motivated.
Because there are quite a lot of things right now that I think are putting pressure on them to sort of dull that creativity.
Charles Day (40:26):
You’re living through the Omnicom-IPG merger consequences. There is one aspect of this that you are directly involved in that I think is worthy of conversation because it applies and I think will go on applying to a lot of businesses over the next couple of years, which is, the integration of other cultures into yours, which I think is perhaps the hardest thing to do in the business world and I think in a creatively driven environment is incredibly hard to do for the reasons you've already said.
I personally believe that every act of human creativity requires an emotional leap of faith and so to create an environment where people feel safe, where they can be vulnerable for all the reasons you've said is critical to being successful.
How are you going about the integration of other people into the organization, the culture that you've created and making that work for them as well as you can, and also to our earlier point as quickly as you can?
Erin Riley (41:17):
Yeah, yeah. Well, I think one of the things that has helped is that in how Omnicom has approached this, they have validated that they believe that agency brands still matter, which is something I believe, because it is that culture. I think creatives and creative people want a culture of creativity. And so while it sounds good that we're all one thing or we're all integrated, I think you need to feel like you have some specific affiliation. And so I think the idea here is that we maintain those individual cultures. And it is actually a platform that integrates us. And it's the data, and it's the knowledge, and we all can tap into that. But we can do that vertical cultures that nurture our nuance. So I think that helps, firstly. The other thing I think that they did, certainly in the case of TBWA that I think is helping us, is they've put agencies together that fundamentally have a very similar DNA. In our case, it was TBWA and DDB and MullenLowe. And if you look at the histories of all of those companies, they were creatively led. They believed in challenging in some way the status quo. They were up for being a bit restless. So yes, we came from different iterations and expressions of that.
But at our core, we were all motivated by the same thing anyways. And so that's the starting point for integrating, know, is firstly to honor where everyone has come from and to acknowledge that, you know, we have more in common than we have different. We all kind of were drawn to the, you know, the four letters on the wall of a place that believed in something very similar. We believe in the power of ideas. We believe in the power of creativity. We believe in not playing it safe.
So we start from a shared values and we, as TBWA are willing to evolve. You know, disruption is our methodology and it has always been something in beta because of its very nature. And so this moment will be no different. You know, we will learn from the cultures that we're embracing. Now, I think we need to be clear eyed about who we are. You know, I do not think consolidations work when it's a Frankenstein. You know, we're very clear that we are the disruption company. That's what we've been. That's what we will always be. And so that's going to be a guiding light. But how we express that, how we practice that, there's flex in that. And we want to sort of inboard as much as we onboard. You we're as interested in talking to these new people about what they were doing, because that might change how we do things moving forward. I think coming at it from that approach will help. you know, that integration. I also think for us, again, I think this is very unique to us perhaps, you know, TBWA before the merger referred to itself as a collective, not a network. And that was a way of indicating that we already had a lot of respect for the independent flavors in the agencies that made up, you know, ultimately the network. We grew largely by acquiring already strong independent brands. And yes, over time, you know, we shared more than we had different, but we let people keep a bit of their name, keep a bit of their culture. So we were kind of already prepared to be less ⁓ didactic about what it meant to be TBWA. You what it meant was to embrace us and enhance, you know, bring a bit of your best self and then adopt, you know, sort of the common mission. So I think that mindset has made this a little bit easier. Now, obviously it's early days, but I've been very pleasantly surprised to be going into agencies already just in January, even in December when I was at Adam&Eve in the UK. You know, and there was already a feeling of like, okay, this is going to be good. We can do this. We're excited to be here. We're excited to welcome these people in. You know, there was an initial shock.
There was a very understandable mourning about some very, very legendary brands going away. I think we all acknowledge that that feels like a loss. But there was a sense of optimism and I think it was genuine. It was not just act excited or we might not be here. I think people were like, okay, hey, these people are kind of like us. And that's very interesting what they do. And they seem to want to hear why I do what I do.
I'm pretty optimistic, I have to say.
Charles Day (45:57):
There's one aspect of this that I hadn't really thought about until we started talking, but in all of this amalgamation consolidation...sunsetting, which I think is one of the worst words anyone's ever come up with. No one's sunsetting a business. They are closing them. Let's just use the language and be honest about it. But you are incorporating what one might argue is the single most influential name in the history of advertising, Bill Bernbach.
Erin Riley (46:11):
Talk about ruining a sunset.
Charles Day (46:30):
Have you reflected on what that means to be the custodian of that now, what role will that, if any, play in how you take the company forward?
Erin Riley (46:38):
Yeah, I, we thought about that a lot. I thought about that a lot. I mean, I think if you love this business, it's hard to not have tremendous reverence for Bernbach and for DDB. And, you know, I think that was in many ways, probably one of the most emotional bits of this, you know, knowing that all the pride that I have and all the belief that I have in TBWA, there was never a question for me of whether that should be a network that endured. But when it became clear that DDB would come in, the first emotion was, that's amazing. That's an amazing network. And then it was like, that means in some ways we're the ones that will be associated with the sun setting of DDB. So we thought a lot, a lot about that. And I did a bit of what I always do, which is try and go back to the source, the truth, the soul. And I found some quotes from Lee Clow, who is in many ways our creative godfather. And while he wasn't a founder of TBWA, Lee Clow and Jean-Marie Drew are sort of our modern, our modern re-founders. And Lee had talked very much and very publicly about Bernbach's influence on him as a creative and that, you know, Bernbach's points of view on ideas and breakthrough and, the, the balance of, you know, magic and intellect and all the things that Bernbach did, shaped him fundamentally as the creative he went on to be. And so I felt like, actually we have a shared origin story. And even though the DDB isn't on the door, certainly the Bernbach is in the soul.
You know, TBWA is not TBWA without Lee Clow, and Lee Clow is not Lee Clow without Bernbach. And so we are in many ways just part of the lineage. And I realize that might be unsatisfying for the external world that very much wants to, you know, make a moment of this. And I understand that. But I think in our hearts and in our soul and the way that we think about doing what we do, we feel very connected still to Birnbach and the legacy.
And we talk about that and we will continue to talk about that. And part of what we're doing at the moment is, you know, revising the narrative and the creds. And it will now be part of that journey in that process to start to integrate some of those Bernbach-isms and the things that he stood for and believed need to become a part of us. I mean, you know, DDB is now a big enough part of our composition that our story going forward has to incorporate some of that stuff. You the things that they took from him, we should now take and we will actively do that because I think it's important. mean, one of the reasons that I love TBWA, that I love BBH, is that I feel like those companies have souls, and that might be a bit fluffy, but I do believe that. And a lot of that is the, you know, it's the artifacts, it's the stories that we keep retelling about what people did or believed, it's the mantras, it's the rallying cries.
And so I think it is part of my responsibility to make sure that in particular the Birnbach bits now become part of the, the lore of TBWA and the tapestry of things that we tap into to inspire ourselves and our clients. So I'm hoping that we will be good custodians of that legacy and that we will carry on that influence, even if that isn't in the name.
Charles Day (50:27):
I would say that building a company with soul, I'm not sure there's anything more important than that. Not only do I think it's not fluffy, but I think that the great companies in the history of the world, whether in our industries or others, have all had soul. And I remember vividly working at Ogilvy when David was still there. And I spent a year at Ogilvy, New York, and then moved to Ogilvy, Chicago. And both of those companies had what I would describe as soul. And I built my own business and have helped with many others. I think it would be hard for me to find a company that I felt had more soul than Oglebay did back in the day, pre WPP, honestly. And the impact it had and the connection it created with people, you know, I'm still in touch with people today that worked, we worked together earlier and that was more years ago than I care to acknowledge. So I couldn't agree with you more, think, but trying to build a company with soul should perhaps be the most important reference point that any of us have when we're, when we have any kind of involvement or opportunity to influence the leadership of companies.
Erin Riley (51:32):
I see it as one of my most important tasks moving is, you know, protecting the soul that we have because there are lots of things about the way that we need to move and work going forward that will be very good for business and good for clients. But they could dilute the soul if we are not conscious of it. I think if we're conscious of it, that won't happen. But I think if we just sort of go with it, you know, it could have a dilutive effect. And that's something that's like very top of mind for me in how we navigate these next couple of years.
Charles Day (52:11):
I am conscious of your time. I would love to have you come back on the podcast because there are so many other things I'd like to ask you about. But let me wrap this one with this question, which is, if you were to roll back and talk to yourself at 20, knowing what you know now, what would you tell that person of yourself?
Erin Riley (52:30):
My God, wear more sunscreen. Wow, what? I have tried very much to feel like everything I've done has had a purpose, know, like has been a purposeful part of the journey. I really don't look back and go, I regret that. I wouldn't have done that. Of course, I think it would, it would be things like probably enjoy yourself a little bit more. You know, it's not that you don't actually have to work all the time You can still get where you want to get without maybe sacrificing as much. And I have to keep telling myself that at the moment, because as I said, I have three young kids and sometimes I think I'm not going to look back and wish that I had done that extra trip to Europe. I probably will look back and say, God, I miss more time cuddling. So that's always the balance. But I think I would probably say, you're good at this. Like trust your gut, trust your instinct. You know, I think that's probably the biggest thing is trust your gut. You know, I think I have, as I touched on before, I think I have an inherent sense of self-confidence.
But I probably go around and around a few times before I go because I'm not just trusting my gut. Sometimes the fastest and the loudest gets all the credit. I can be the loudest, but, you know, I think we should be putting more value on being thoughtful.
But I also think that there is value in just like trusting that your gut, which is hopefully a combination of your heart and your brain, is right. So just follow it.
Charles Day (54:11):
I really want to thank you for coming on the show today. I'm so struck by your self-awareness and your deep, deep humanity. And it feels to me like TBWA is in really, really good hands under your guidance and under your direction. So I wish you huge success going forward. It's a complicated time, I know, for you and for the industry. And I wish you nothing but success.
Erin Riley (54:16):
Thank you very much. I've enjoyed it very, much. It was like, you know, a therapy session in many ways, which is good. Good thing.
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