Patricia Corsi of Kimberly-Clark
How do you react when people make mistakes?
"FEARLESS CREATIVE LEADERSHIP" PODCAST - TRANSCRIPT
Episode 284: Patricia Corsi
Here’s a question. How do you react when people make mistakes?
Hello, I’m Charles Day. Welcome to Fearless Creative Leadership. If you believe that human creativity is the only scalable, sustainable competitive advantage, you’re in the right place.
Here we explore how people in all walks of life - from business leaders to artists to athletes - unlock creativity and innovation in themselves and the people around them. And in the process, how they move the world forward.
This episode’s guest is Patricia Corsi. She’s the Chief Growth Officer of Kimberly-Clark. Patricia has been named one of the Top 50 Most Influential CMOs of the World by Forbes in 2024 and 2025.
She has very clear beliefs about how to unlock creativity and innovation in her business, and the kind of leadership that requires.
“Well, courage comes with the role, right? And I think this is one thing that is really, really important. So I think if you do that, as well, if you take over, you don't give your team the chance to be courageous, to put forward some of the things that they might not be super sure about it, but they think there is something in there. There's some data points that lead them to believe. And I think ultimately people will evaluate the leadership based on how do you react when they make mistakes.”
Creativity and innovation are unpredictable. They demand uncertainty and depend on failure. Failure is how we learn and without it, creativity dies.
Modern society isn’t good on failure. We look for likes and follows and success, defined across as many metrics as possible. Childhood is a celebration of attendance, not attempt. Break the rules, and punishment ensues. Conform, and be confirmed as a trusted member of society.
The world is unstable. Politics is unpredictable. Technology is rampant. We can no longer believe our own eyes. Or ears.
When we can no longer rely on our senses, those attributes that helped us survive the last 3,000 years, it’s not a surprise that avoiding mistakes has become the currency of choice for many businesses. Plan and execute. A sea of grey in a world looking for hope.
Leadership is the single greatest opportunity most of us will have to make a difference. I’ve said that before. Today, it’s truer than ever.
It comes with a responsibility which is to decide what that difference is. If you measure it in titles and awards, I promise you will be soon forgotten. Your name on a plaque at the bottom of a recycling bin or a landfill.
But if you measure the difference you make in terms of how you react when people make mistakes, you will have established the foundations on which their creativity is unlocked.
And that opens the door to ideas that no one has ever thought of before and to businesses that no one has ever seen.
So, how do you react when people make mistakes? And what might you do differently?
Here’s Patricia Corsi.
Charles Day:
Patricia, welcome to Fearless. Thank you so much for coming on the show.
Patricia Corsi:
I'm very excited to be here, Charles. Thank you for having me.
Charles Day:
When did creativity first show up in your life? When are you first conscious of creativity being a thing?
Patricia Corsi:
I didn't know it was called creativity, it was by watching my grandfather. He was a chef and he was a special kind of chef because very few of them specialize on desserts. So he was one of those and creativity was his life all along. And what he could do with the desserts was something that completely blew my mind when I was a very young girl.
Charles Day:
What kind of cooking did he do?
Patricia Corsi:
So my grandfather was a chef and he had hotel. So basically he only would do the desserts for the hotel. But his nickname was Big Strawberry. So his specialty was strawberry ⁓ based desserts. So much that it became his nickname.
Charles Day:
That's fantastic. What a great story. Big Strawberry. I love that. It's one of the best nicknames I've ever heard, I think. How did you express yourself as a child?
Patricia Corsi:
Big strawberry.
Well, I think it's going to work well with this because I had to express myself fearlessly. Because I was surrounded by boys and men, all my cousins were boys, all my uncles were men. My father didn't have any ⁓ sister and his mother died ⁓ very young. So I had to learn how to stand up for myself within all the boys.
Boys and girls, they have different dynamics on how to express themselves. So I had to learn those dynamics but it was interesting because I also learned to see the world through different lenses.
Charles Day:
How did you learn that? I mean, to grow up in an environment that had that kind of structure, where did you get the perspective or the insight to be able to recognize the way the world is presented to me is not necessarily the way the world has to be?
Patricia Corsi:
it's a fantastic question. and, cousins, I had two roles that I could play. I could either be like the precious porcelain doll because I was the only girl, right?
Because my father and my grandfather, when I was born, my father was already 50. So it was enough already for him to take so much care of me, right? So I was his first child when he was 50. And I didn't think that that role fit my personality or what I wanted to do in life. I was actually extremely inspired by my grandfather and my father being both interpreters when this world was not fancy or cool.
Was actually the synonym of really hardworking people that have not had the chance to go and complete their studies, lots of them coming from immigrant families. And I absolutely loved I thought that was something. And of course, I was born and raised most of my life in Brazil. I'm almost 20 years away, but this is not what I see in women.
Doing there, it was actually not that difficult for me seeing what it was, the female representation in the country, and it was the representation of leadership that I thought it was amazing and inspiring. was easier for me to say, I want that one. I don't want the porcelain doll label.
Charles Day:
I mean, it takes so much internal courage and fortitude, I think, to be able to work your way through that. know, there's this age old debate, isn't there, between nature and nurture, and which one is more influential. Just as you look back at your own, at the earliest stages of your life, how much weight do you place on nature, and how much weight do you place on nurture?
Patricia Corsi:
I never thought about that. I think if we have learning agility, we can do whatever comes in front of us. Of course, you have learning agility and willingness. So again, I had a fantastic leaderships spectacle in front of me.
And I was looking at this, you know, gentlemen that I admire, respect and love and thinking that, you know, our family members came from a different country to Brazil. They didn't speak the language. They didn't know anyone. For me, this was courage later on. I find it almost like easier. ⁓ You know, imagine arriving on a boat in a place that the temperature is different, the culture is different, the food is different. You know no one and you can't speak the language.
So that is courage. And for me, that's a representation of when there is a will, there is a way. So that became one of the things that I've always taught. said, I might not be the smartest one in the room, but I'm going to be the bloody hardest working one in the room, right? I'm going to be the most enthusiastic. I'm going to be the most collaborative. And I think when you combine those different things, it is wonderful.
I don't know, I don't know, Charles, if you've been in a room where, you know, everyone is trying to compete to see who is the smartest. I don't remember having the best experience, but maybe it's just me. I think there are different kinds of smart and different kinds of brilliances in the world. And I think we are better off when we nurture all of them differently versus putting people to compete for one space.
Charles Day:
I find it to be rare that people are willing to take a step back and say, I'm not going to try and compete to be the smartest person in the room. I think it's rare that people say, I'm here to figure out how I can best contribute, but how can I get the best out of other people?
I think that that's a pretty rare perspective to bring to the table. Clearly that's helped you from a leadership development standpoint.
Patricia Corsi:
It did, but you know, one of the things is that when you were trying to be the smartest person in the room, you forget that there are other people in the room that is not only about yourself. and I'm interested in the humankind. And I think that's why I love the growth role that I mean, that's why I love the business experience that I have been having for 30 odd years, because it's all about the different people. There is not one little cookie cutter that comes and forms all of them. So when I say that I genuinely mean that and I think sometimes the smartest people with poor attitude drives nothing. It actually just drives bad things. And sometimes smart people with great attitude, understanding how to read the room, connecting the dots. I'm more interested in that.
And just to be clear, because sometimes, you know, words get misinterpreted. I think this is not an excuse not to do your homework before every big meeting, every important meeting. I've never come to a place thinking I'm not the smartest people in the room, so I'm not going to try. I'm trying my hardest every day, but I'm conscious of the things that I'm having as my strength. Like, I'm very good at connecting the dots.
I am very good at finding problems, Charles. This is actually one of my scenes. I can see a problem from miles away, right? And when you combine this with the smartness of someone else, with the ability to, you know, gather teams with someone else, this is an unbeatable team. And that is for me a great experience.
Charles Day:
When you say, can see problems from miles away, does it feel to you like those are opportunities? I don't get the sense that you're weighted down by that, right? A lot of people see problems coming and kind of shrink and get smaller, but it doesn't feel like that's your response, problem is almost a fuel for you. Is that right? Am I interpreting that right?
Patricia Corsi:
Yes. Absolutely.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is for me like an antidote to anything that is bad. I think in the heart of problems, there are opportunities. And when I'm saying, you know, it's my scene that I see problems because, know, there are some, I'm looking at them and I see all of them as opportunities. I'm thinking, okay, we need to be focused which, which one of the opportunities we are going to tackle next. Right. So
For example, one, and for me, this is part of the growth mentality. This is part of the owner's mindset that I've learned so much with my father and grandfather. That is, you see something like, remember, ⁓ there are silly examples, but one example from my childhood, I remember there was something that happened one day. used to, once a week, I used to go to the big market with my father to buy all the fresh.
for the restaurant because he wanted me to learn how to do that. And I saw him smelling things and so, and it was really funny, you know, that gentleman doing it and that small version of the gentleman doing it. But it was all about that passion and that love for every single ingredient that would make the whole experience marvelous.
I remember there was once something that happened that there were no tomatoes. my father had at certain point for Italian restaurants. not having tomatoes, he was like, close the restaurant. And I remember my father, you know, he looked at that and said, it's a great opportunity for us to try that different thing that we are always holding back from not doing, and I don't remember if it was aubergines or whatever it was. But I remember he looked at it, for a second he looked like in this person, ooh, how are you going to do it without tomatoes? But immediately he shift and he was, you know what? Now is the time, you know, I've been holding this for a long time that there is that thing that I think we should do.
I know when I get there, the chef is going to go bananas on me, but we have a plan. I remember him saying, you know, sometimes those things happen for a reason. And so that was very inspiring for me seeing that because I've, I've always had that, you know, and, and even when first went to university, I went to do engineering. ⁓ I don't know.
But it was really good to help me to know what I didn't like. Because I think there is one thing that is when there is a will there is a way. But there is also one thing that I've learned on that time that
You know, you do something, maybe that is not for you. It's okay for you to do a step back and reevaluate. So for the people that work with me, they will remember every once in a while I say, look, this is a Waze moment. And they say, what's a Waze moment? I said, this is the moment where we recalculate the route. So, you know, when you get into a block in the street, you know—
Charles Day:
Yes!
Patricia Corsi:
There is a way. Maybe it's not this one, but we recalculate the route and then we go. So I think for me, this is how I see problems. ⁓ Yeah, I see it as exciting. I think if life didn't have problems, and I often say I think perfection is overrated, I much rather prefer imperfection. Because when it's perfect, then it's done. Then it's fait accompli, then it's
That's it, nothing else, right? So I'm much more interested, like us humans, you know, we are never perfect, so we keep working in ourselves, we keep looking to be the best persons of ourselves, and I find that very, very interesting.
Charles Day:
What's fascinating about that story about the tomatoes is that it reminds me of the old, I think it's Thomas Jefferson saying that nothing focuses the mind like a hanging. When you're faced with disaster, you're gonna figure it out. And it speaks to the nature of human creativity, doesn't it? I mean, that's a fundamentally creative act that no other species on the planet can recreate.
From various vantage points that you've experienced it, why is creativity so important in the business sense?
Patricia Corsi:
I think because it's a way for us to keep evolving about keep challenging ourselves
And there might be studies on this, but I think we learn more when we don't succeed on things. ⁓ And that's my point on perfection as well, because sometimes you're aiming for perfection, you don't allow any mistakes. So you don't learn as much. And I agree with you and I've read this somewhere that whenever, you know, humankind is faced with a challenge that, challenges we will get together and we will find solutions. And we had many examples of this in the recent years, especially on the health area where things that people thought were never happen in one year, they happen, things that normally happen in 10, 20 years. But I think on top of that, I think there is an impact of
the culture that I was born into. I come from a Brazilian Italian family. This year Brazil was voted in Cannes the most creative country in the world for the first time of this award. And I think there is this aspect of being able to thrive on challenges, you know or you put yourself in a safe…how you're going to make lemonade out of coconuts. I think this is how it's eaten in Brazil. So we have coconuts, we need to make lemonade. So you need to be creative. It's not just squeezing. You need to do a couple of other things in there.
Charles Day:
So given the power of human creativity, as you've just described it, and I think we would both agree it's an extraordinary attribute that we have as a species, what do you think the future of human creativity looks like in the context of AI? Because AI is beginning to do a lot of things that we used to think were quote unquote creativity? Where's the line going to be between what AI can do and what human beings can still uniquely do?
Patricia Corsi:
Things that normally move me the most, AI still is not able to do it. They have to do with humor. They have to do with deeper emotions like nostalgia. They have to do with music, but not just producing music. The memories that that music bring to me, right? So these are very, very human traces.
I see a lot of benefits in terms of things that in the past, it was something that leveled set had a big separation between the, the able and then the ones that were not, experienced or talented on that. ⁓ so myself, for example, I, I have a not for profit called good Latinas for Good, and I used to do all the initial designs for it. Of course, using Midjourney because I have no talent on design. And so this brought me to an average, right? I'm never going to be something special. But the one thing that really concerned me on that is that I was at a certain point prompting for, give me pictures of latching women, chatting and, you know in a good environment, whatever it is, and all their images were stereotypical, sexualized images.
So I think this is one of the things that we need to look at the AI is they're going to reflect everything that they have been fed in terms of information. So it will take a very, very long time to have a different representation that doesn't have bias. And if we don't have that then the bias is never going to change because in our case, for example, it was very sexualized photos. Then I said, okay, give me non-sexualized images of Latin women and what they did, they took the hair, then did a bump and they put glasses on it. That is their version, right? So it's a very linear way. It doesn't have any context into it. So I think there is also an opportunity talking about problems that are opportunities dressed in problems, I think it's an opportunity for this industry to reinvent themselves. And I think every, I don't know, maybe 50 years, 40 years, an industry get the opportunity to reinvent itself. And I think now is the time. ⁓ And I think really preserving creativity and making sure that the value added by creativity is clear is one of the most important things at the moment in that industry, especially for the ones building brands.
Charles Day:
Do you think human beings will always play a role in creativity? Will we always have a value proposition?
Patricia Corsi:
I think so. I think there is a couple of things that it will be facilitated. But I think said will be the day where we don't have a role to play. And especially because again, I need to be consistent. think perfection is overrated and maybe, you know, with computers and all of this, they are looking for perfection in terms of the design or whatever it is.
To fill in your prompt exactly the way. And I'm not sure if that is something that people will connect with life as is. But even like I'm doing my own learning on this and the other day I was doing a training and one of the things that I learned is apparently when you're doing a prompt, it doesn't work that well if you tell them what not to do.
it's much better when you tell them what to do. But often in life, it's easier for you to know what is not than what it is because you're still designing what it is. And I thought that that was a really interesting thing because they apparently they don't operate well if you say this is what is not. But I don't know yet what it is. So they don't work that well with that. So for me, this was a signal that there is still a very important space for us ⁓ in that relationship.
Charles Day:
You know, I wonder, I've said this on the podcast before, but I wonder that if we don't bring value through the lens of creativity, what other function, what other purpose will mankind serve, humankind serve on the planet? Because it seems pretty clear, I mean, maybe this is wild fantasy on my part, but it seems to me anyway that if you just extrapolate out the growth of AI and the things it's capable of now that it couldn't do a year ago and map that out, three to five years, that there won't be many things physically that it won't be able to do better.
And that doesn't seem too fanciful to me. So I wonder whether that, does that resonate for you? And if so, do you think therefore that human creativity is the thing that actually we are able to bring to the table that nothing else will be able to? Is that our value proposition going forward?
Patricia Corsi:
I don't know if it is that. I think there is something about carrying, connecting the dots in a way that is not, again, perfect. Because if I was using some analogies on war strategies, right, some of them had deceive on it, some of them had things that were different than what would be the obvious way, because the obvious way would carry much more loss from a human point of view, right?
I think there is something about empathy, there is something about care that my understanding this is ingenuity. I went to read the book and I know probably said what I'm going to say, but I went to read the book from someone that pulls that brilliance out of their own experience being said or not. ⁓ I think that carries a value, that carries a weight.
I think there are things I agree with you. much rather a machine gets an electrical charge than a human being. Right? So I think this would be something that I would be, I think this is actually improving human condition.
Charles Day:
Yeah.
Patricia Corsi:
And longevity is one of my current, you know, would say obsessions in a positive way. We keep saying that we are running, you know, we don't have enough time, we don't have enough time. And if you read all the things people say before they die, I wish I had more time, I wish I had more time. So my thing is how we are using AI to do the things that add no value to us as a species.
and to focus and use that time to the things that we really, whenever is our time to go, we said, I feel that I have no regrets because every single time that I got extra from, you know, empowering a machine to do something, I got three times because I was doing something that only I could do.
Some countries, the aging population and how much they are missing the new, the younger people to, you know, even to be nurses, to do basic jobs, to support the population. I agree with you having, you know, a robotic system that helps elderly to get out of bed, to be clean, to be changed.
This would be, I saw a robotic cloud that they can carry like 200 kilos. This is fantastic, right? Is in support of human longevity and care. That I like very much. So I think we just need to be more balanced on the approach. think sometimes when there are new technologies, there is sometimes a tendency to go, the pendulum too much in one side, then there is fear, scare, whatever it is, and then it goes to the other side and then hopefully lands in the middle.
Charles Day:
I think that perspective is really inspirational actually because to your point, I read an article over the weekend that said more and more people are dying alone as people live longer and ⁓ fewer people are having children I think than before, populations are declining and so the net result of a lot of different factors is that more and more people are dying alone without family around them, without friends around them. And so your point actually I think is really powerful because if we can get AI to do those functional things that
right now, home care workers and nurses are having to do, then people who have that disposition to want to serve, want to help, I think gives them the time to actually be connected to human beings, doesn't it, in a completely different way. I that would be an extraordinary evolution as the consequence of AI.
Patricia Corsi:
And I will tell you one thing that again, are doing on Good Latinas. We, you know, we do cohorts of mentoring pro bono and it takes everyone works in the founding members group. We all, whatever we, whatever time that we put there, we are taking from our family and our personal time. Right. So we, this time we decided to use a platform that uses AI to connect and do the matching. This for me is a great example because there was really not, this is, everyone goes and put their, what is the experience, what's the strengths, so the platform takes that all in and does the matching better than we could in a much short period of time. And then the interesting thing is that we are able to invest that time that was not with value added per se to do other stuff and continue to serve that community. So that for me is an example on what I was just telling you. I think there are spaces where it can be a really good time saver.
Charles Day:
Within the context of all of this, it's going to be more more important that human beings are spending their time on their, to the greatest good, right? So I think from my perspective, what that means is, you and I spend a lot of time in the marketing advertising world, there's lots of different applications of this, but in the context of the world that you and I spend time in, making sure that people are able to deliver their best thinking, to be their most creative becomes more and more and more important because AI is going to take off, take up a lot of the slack of the stuff that people used to spend their time on. so making sure that we're creating the conditions in which creative thinking, innovation can thrive becomes critical. you talked in one of the interviews you gave about the importance of creating psychological safety for the people that work for you. How do you go about that? My view is that every act of creative creativity requires an emotional leap of faith. How do you create the environment?
Patricia Corsi:
Mm.
Charles Day:
How are you creating the environment in which human beings can have the psychological safety to bring their best thinking?
Patricia Corsi:
Yeah, you're right. And with the many years you had, think in Ogilvy and DDB, right? I think there is some similarities on how do you foster creativity. And not just foster creativity, how sometimes you do this leap of faith that you're calling for an idea that is maybe nascent, but requires a little bit more love and thought.
Right, because it's very easy to kill things at the beginning. think there is some hidden purse, let me say in this way. ⁓ my way of doing it is, I think, ⁓ quite simple. I am very non-hierarchical, so I think we should, everyone that has something to say should be in the meeting room and should.
whenever they have the conviction of their belief, they should speak. I am down in the arena with the team whenever I can help. So I put my avianas on, this is the arena shoes, Brazilian arena shoes, and I will go and dive straight in with the team. So for example, one of the things that people are used to have with me are sessions called Wet Cement. So we work together on things.
These are not things for approval. This is where actually I've shared with the team. This is not where you get the best out of me because I am so wired to solve problems and look for opportunities and grow. The best way to get the best of me is put a problem on the table and let's solve it together. Right. With this, with this, you know, frame of wet, you know, wet cement. So whatever it is. And so this is another thing I do.
One thing that I've learned and I really took to heart is because what I mentioned to you since I younger, I've learned how to stand up for myself. I speak with a lot of conviction when I believe in something. Some people look and say, well, you know, she's telling us to do that. No, I'm saying what I believe, but I don't say things like wishy washy when I believe them. either say it or I don't say it.
So I learned that different cultures interpret this differently. So when I'm saying something that I feel really passionate about, said, I am very passionate about this, but I'm holding this lightly. If there is something that I have a concern, I would say, I hold this strongly, because I think there is a risk there that ultimately I'm accountable for. So I learned to communicate very clearly.
What do I mean when I say things? think this is the second thing. And the third thing is, I've been really awarded with working with amazing people. And I always have teams that challenge me in different ways and they are fantastic in what they do. ⁓ So shame on me if I don't empower and trust them to do their jobs. So one, the last thing that I would say is I don't micromanage.
And the teams know if I'm going deep on something is because I have lost the trust. they know very transparently how do I operate. So hopefully this helps build the communication. But as you know, this is a two way street. So we need to make sure that I have to do my bit. And then we need to have everyone that is with us, doing their part as well because we don't know what we don't know if people don't speak that saying, know, when you said folks, this where I come from doesn't sound very, you know, appropriate. say, okay, tell me what's the appropriate word then. Right. So that's okay. ⁓ I think if we have that open channel and people don't start from a place that thinks, there's something out there, there's someone out there for me, or there is a good intent in all the discussions, I think it helps to create the psychological safety space.
Charles Day:
it also strikes me then in times of great uncertainty in situations that are filled with uncertainty and you would know better than I, but more and more situations these days have uncertainty as the framework. Many leaders and under that, under those conditions, seek control, claim control, grab control. Feels like you do the opposite of that. It's like you're able to stay above that noise and be clear with the people that work for you about, is what I expect, this is how to get the best of me, and there's real clarity in that. How are you able to stay above the fray? How do you stay above the noise and not automatically just grab control and still allow other people to come in and have a point of view and have a voice?
Patricia Corsi:
Hopefully because I'm consistent when I say that I'm not the smartest person in the room. I mean it. And if when things are difficult, I just say, let me take over. I'm saying the opposite of that. I'm saying, you, you know, nothing. Let me take over because I know everything and I'm better than everyone. and I don't think people want to send this message, willingly, but I think inadvertently, this is the message they sent when problems arise and then they seek for command and control. I think this is also part of leadership development. think also when you are growing as an experienced individual from a manager to director to a much higher level, you tend to move from a command and control to more influencing and more leadership.
It's interesting because normally when promote people or I make a bet on people, the first thing they want to revise everything with me. And I said, well, why do you want to revise everything with me? Because you're not sure? Or because you want to cover any guess? Because part of developing is that, know, I'm trusting that you're doing your homework. If you have doubts, for all means you say, look, Patricia, I've been looking at this different angles, but I'm not sure about it. Okay, wet cement, let's have a session about that. But most of the time people are asking to say, give me the power to decide. And when you give the power to decide, people will say, okay, let me just triple check with you.
Well, courage comes with the role, right? And I think this is one thing that is really, really important. So I think if you do that as well, if you take over, you don't give your team the chance to be courageous, to put forward some of the things that they might not be super sure about it, but they think there is something in there. There's some data points that lead them to believe. And I think ultimately, ⁓
People will evaluate the leadership based on how do you react when they make mistakes. Because it's very interesting that when you ask people why you're not willing to try things, most of the time they're saying, well, because we are afraid of the consequences. And then you ask, okay, tell me who recently has made a mistake that had consequences in their job, for example, lost their job. And actually.
And I think nine out of 10 times, they do not ever thought about that. It's just something that is in the back of it. It's just like a fait complete. Let's not do it because it might cost the job, but then let someone else do that decision for me. That might cost their job, but I want to continue to develop and grow. So, so some of those things we just need to be consistent. So.
I think the thing for me is the word consistency. I'm overpowering on something, there is only two reasons. One is that I lost the trust, which would be would be quite serious. And second one, if the team really came and said, we are lost, we need help, and we don't know how to get out of here. And then we do that and then we need to regroup later on and okay, what happened? Because we need to make sure that this doesn't happen again. Why didn't you feel empowered to take the decision, et cetera? But I think we cannot say one thing, Charles, and then do another thing. We can't say, you know...
I think you're all great. I've hired great people. And then whenever something goes bad, said, okay, I don't think you're that great. I don't think you're great people. You know, let me, but I am great. Let me all do this thing.
Charles Day:
It sounds ridiculous when you frame it that way. And I think we would both agree that's the ideal way to lead. I think we also know that there are not that many people who have the confidence, the courage, the consistency to be able to lead that way. So I think what you're representing is a really powerful model. What does make you afraid? Is there anything that makes you afraid?
Patricia Corsi:
Frogs. So from a work's perspective, I don't know if there is much. The things that I'm most afraid in my life is to make sure that the people that I love and care for, my husband, my son, my friends, they are safe and in good health. I think this is the thing that really, really scared me. The other day I was traveling and the Ring alarm started ringing on my cell phone and there were people in our garage trying to steal our cars. I was just desperate because of my family. But I think everything else in work, again, we need to work hard. We need to keep pushing ourselves to be our better selves. But I think one of the things that worry me the most is insecurity. Because sometimes I have seen driven by insecurity people doing things that are not acceptable.
So if there is one thing that I'm, you know, I worry is when people are insecure, the insecurity is driving people to do things that are not acceptable, even without noticing. But again, the inspiration of my life, my father and my grandfather, they love so much what they did. I never felt like the job, was a prison. So therefore,
The door is not locked. You can walk. If you stay there, stay because you're 100% in and you are committed, you are excited, you're enthusiastic, you're engaged. Of course, every once in a while you will have some off days. There's something that you wanted faster. There's something that you wanted differently. But I think when you're afraid, you don't do the things that you should do.
And this is what worries me about fear in the work. You don't say the things that you should say and then it starts getting into ethics. So if you're afraid of your boss, you wouldn't report something that you see in there is an ethical, this worries me. So what's right is right, what's wrong is wrong, right? So fear shouldn't hold you from doing what's right.
Charles Day:
The casting of the company that you work for, not you, but the casting of the company that one works for, ⁓ it's, think, massively underestimated how important it is to get that right. I think the point you're making is something that I've seen over and over again, where people stay at jobs for too long, they stay at companies that are not a good fit for them, they're not a good fit for it. Most of the time, they're liberated by moving on somewhere else. Most of the time, the company is liberated by helping those people to leave. I think a lot of leaders get caught up in the premise that I don't want to fire somebody because it's cruel or it's mean or it's selfish or that person's really struggling. How do you bring all of this together, the kind of confidence and clarity that you're describing, from a practical standpoint? When you see somebody who doesn't fit, how do you approach that situation and how quick are you to encourage them? Maybe there's somewhere else that's better.
Patricia Corsi:
I think there are two things. let me just give you two examples when, because sometimes there is a, I think we have to be careful because if we are looking for diversity of thinking of culture and experience, you might look at some people that from face value say it wouldn't fit. Right. So, and let's put in the creative word in the marketing world, introverts are quite rare. So I think we need to separate a little bit what is fit from what is needed skills and capabilities and leadership needed for a job and what is personality. So I always look at it because otherwise we we see a lot of leaders that have a team that is like a copycat of of themselves, which it might be wonderful, but it also lacks, my life lack lots of things because no one is perfect, right? Thanks God. So I think there is something in that spectrum of first being very honest and honest. I mean, it's not disclosing all the things, you know, in certain jobs that we have, we have confidentiality points, but I've—
There were many points where I said, look, I cannot talk about this point. And I'm transparent about that. It doesn't mean that I disclose. I won't never disclose information. I'm bound by a contract on something. But when it has to do with feedback on performance and all of this, the first thing I do is I make sure that, and I have a very simple thing that I do for a long time. For all the media review and four-year reviews, I do like, three things that I think you're doing brilliantly well. And it's a mix of performance-driven activities and leadership skills. And then I put three things that there is opportunity to continue to develop. And then I ask them three things that I can help you on either developing that or by the way we interact together. Sometimes it's you will get the best of me, Patricia, by doing this way and not that way. I want to hear that, right? And so I do that because this is under my control. But what I think again is the thing that it to be both ways to dance. Sometimes I heard people say, well, but I've only got feedback that I'm great. I've always been exceeds or something like that. And I said, was there any point in time where you asked, what can I do better? If there is a promotion tomorrow or if there is a big responsibility, a big project tomorrow, would you give it to me? If not, why? And again, you see this is where, and you see my point on insecurity. If you are secure and if you have conviction that even if you're an imperfect specimen, you can be better, you can develop yourself, why not ask?
You wouldn't ask if you're insecure, if you're afraid of what's going to be the answer. but this is what's in your control, right? So yes, ask, ask that. So, so this is one example on leading people with partners. For example, I, I believe that people should not work in fear.
But one of the things that I have had historically with my partners, especially creative and communication and media agencies is we are going to have twice a year ⁓ evaluations that go back and forth. Every time there is something really good, I will personally give you a call. Every time there is a problem, I will personally give you a call. And when we align on that,
If there is one evaluation that is not good, it's not a problem if we are together taking the actions to fix it. Right? If there are two evaluations that are not good, it means that either you didn't care enough to take an action on that. Therefore you don't want to be my partner. So two evaluations that are bad then, so there is no surprise pitch. I was proud of myself to saying, you know, I don't like to be caught by surprise.
you know, with the sneak attack on something. And I had the same with my partners, which works well for a long period of time. And I think it helps people not to live in fear. Also, the fear of the pitch, the fear of the change of the CMO, the fear of the change of the business needs and et cetera. So these are things that if we can help take some of those fears out of the way, because everyone has a different living circumstances, I think it helps.
Charles Day:
Do you have any kind of imposter syndrome?
Patricia Corsi:
I shouldn't say that because apparently everyone has, but professionally, every time that I think of something, remember my father and grandfather and said, it can be done and if it cannot be done, I'm courageous enough to say so. I think as a working mother and someone that is a breadwinner, I think I'm always conscious to be the best mother I can. So from a professional point of view, I would say no, but as life, it's made of two halves. I'm always thinking, am I being the best mom to Lorenzo that I can be? And this makes me nervous, right? but let's see, he's a well-formed young man. I'm very proud of him.
Charles Day:
We could have another hour on that. Last two questions for you. ⁓ As you look at everything you've experienced, if you could go back and talk to yourself as a 20-year-old, what would you tell her?
Patricia Corsi:
I think the first thing is, being vulnerable is a superpower. Because of what I've shared with you before, being raised amongst boys and men, I was, you know, was structured to be a tractor. maintenance, I work on rain, sun. If you put gasoline, if you put vodka, whatever you put in, will, my engine will work.
And I've learned very late in life that it's okay to not be okay sometimes. And actually, especially being a woman, think it sends the right message.
And I think this is an important message being vulnerable actually brings people closer to you. So I would say that to my younger self.
Charles Day:
And as you look at the future, what are you hopeful for?
Patricia Corsi:
That we, well, I'm hopeful so many things.
That we start having further conversations about how do we evolve humanity as we did so much passion and intensity that we see the conversations on AI robotics, agentics and et cetera. I think there is something extremely powerful. Just I was recently in Japan and just seeing how the communities help people to live longer, how the habits and friendships, but the connectiveness with other humans, which pose a big question for us that have kids that have lived through COVID studying, have been taken, having had opportunity taking out of them to have the community with their colleagues during one year and a half or so.
I'm more and more wishing that we go back to simpler times. A little bit less devices, I must say. A little bit more garden. I'm getting old, I'm declaring all my age. A little bit more petting the dog. A little bit more cooking. A little bit more basic stuff that sometimes we take for granted.
I think they help build the fabric of relationships. They help build the fabric of mental health. And with that, we have a much, much better and stronger future as, you know, when we think about living longer. So I know it's a big ask. It feels like I was running for Miss Brazil. What do I want? The peace of the world, cooking classes.
Charles Day:
Yeah. Well, manifesting our future is, think, an important dynamic, right, that we should bring to the table more often. I really want to thank you for coming on the show. The clarity and the consistency of what I would describe as your leadership ethos and philosophy is powerful, it's palpable, and in my experience, it's really rare. And I thank you very much for sharing it. People are going to learn a great deal, I think, about leading as we head into a brave new world, from this conversation and from you. Thank you very much indeed.
Patricia Corsi:
Thank you very much. It was one hour that I totally enjoyed. And I have to say it energized me for the rest of the week for sure.
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