David Rolfe of WPP
Are you creating trust?
"FEARLESS CREATIVE LEADERSHIP" PODCAST - TRANSCRIPT
Episode 283: David Rolfe
Here's a question. Are you creating trust?
Hello, I'm Charles Day, and welcome to Fearless Creative Leadership. If you believe that human creativity is the only scalable, sustainable, competitive advantage, then you're in the right place.
Here we explore how people in all walks of life, from business leaders, to artists, to athletes, unlock creativity in themselves and in the people around them. And in the process, how they move the world forward.
This episode's guest is David Rolfe. He's the Head of Production at WPP. When David and I debated last year, whether one person could someday make a Super Bowl ad, it felt like a provocation.
This year, we both agreed it's an inevitability. Which brings with it a bigger question. How will we tell the difference between what's real and what's synthetic? And will it matter?
“When you're watching the content itself, arguably, you can pretty much guess when you're seeing AI. You can, particularly now. Now I absolutely think that'll transform and become more naturalized, and will become undetectable.”
And that's the moment when trust becomes everything. Trust in the makers, when we can no longer believe our own eyes. Trust in the curators that they'll tell us what we're looking at. And trust that technology can expand what's possible without stripping away the humanity that makes creativity matter.
Trust is the fuel of the human journey, the thing we yearn for as we search for our tribe, for where we belong. And trust is the new currency. As Scott Galloway wrote in a recent newsletter, the Next Big Crisis in Confidence will come from our inability to distinguish human Intent. In a world optimized for optics, trust is the next scarce resource.
And that's why trust is one of the 13 dimensions that we measure with our FORM Creativity Diagnostic. Why it shows up as a cornerstone of so many of the world's most innovative and creative companies.
Because without trust, creativity shuts down. People won't share fragile ideas. They won't take risks, and they won't challenge the status quo. But when trust exists between leaders and teams, between companies and their audiences, then creativity is unleashed. It becomes safer to experiment, easier to collaborate, and becomes possible to build the kind of culture where bold ideas thrive.
David Rolfe has always been one of the most thoughtful voices on production. Trust him when he tells you that we are barely scratching the surface of what is possible. And then make sure that you know whether trust is the currency at the heart of your organization. Or what you need to do to make sure that it is.
Here's David Rolfe.
[00:02:47] Charles: David, welcome back to Fearless. Thanks so much for coming back on the show.
[00:02:51] David Rolfe: Thank you for having me again. It's been a, it's been a small bit, but it's perfect timing.
[00:02:56] Charles: How's the week been?
[00:02:58] David Rolfe: It's been great. It's been a unique one. I was the jury president for Entertainment Lions this year. I'd served on on juries a few times. I had always wanted to be a president in truth. And I would say both for the, uh. both for the experience of indeed President as such a, a distinguished jury as as Cannes is, but Um, also to be up on stage with Juan. You know what I mean? I was saying I always thought I have, I truly recognized that I, I want to be on stage as much as possible for the merit of our, of my work and things like that and from the back in the day. But I also set a goal to actually talk with that guy up on stage. You know, that's when I truly knew I made it. So I mentioned that, by the way, in the festival.
[00:03:39] Charles: Well, Juan is such a legend for people who have not been to Cannes, Juan is the MC of every award show that the modern version of the Cannes Lion Festival has provided, and he brings so much energy and personality and humor to the entire event. He's, he's a very big part of the show.
[00:03:55] David Rolfe: He really is. He's basically a Ryan Seacrest of, of Cannes Lions. He really, he really is like, he effectively produces it in a way, like when we, when we did rehearsal, which was super fun, he walks through people, through it. He, he talks about energy. He does all this thing. He truly wants to put on a performance there, of which he of course is the Grandmaster.
[00:04:16] Charles: And he does it five times a week now, right? Every night. Monday through, Monday through Friday. For For 20 years. Wow. And he looked younger every year, actually. Whatever he is doing is clearly working for him.
[00:04:26] David Rolfe: Yeah, he does. It was fun to see the intricacies before the show, as well.
[00:04:30] Charles: So we talked last year about the role and evolution of AI in production. And you had a lot of remarkable and insightful thoughts. A year later, where does that relationship sit from your experience?
[00:04:43] David Rolfe: Well, it's, it's, it's ever more entwined. I think you're right. I think we had to deal with ways of sort of being predictive about where it was going to go, but now we're just, we're, we're overtly living within it. I probably said this last year, but I think it's exciting, but adoption could not be more urgent, in terms of, of how we're working and, and we're recognizing. I think we're starting to see constructive patterns or, or structural patterns of how we'll be working, better than we could have foreseen when we were here a year ago.
[00:05:21] It's not been lost on me than, you know, less than twice a week, is when you posited, because when we talked last year, we were, you were, we were both sharing provocations. But I felt like you provided a provocation that I just simply wasn't quite ready for last year, of which I thought about much. And you said, what's going to happen when one person will make a Super Bowl ad? Now I was, you know, and perhaps it was just because I glimpse how many people actually make a, you know, a, a Super Bowl ad and then the, the precipitous differentiation between one person versus what it takes to make a Super Bowl ad.
[00:06:00] But I have thought it took me, you know, six, eight months ago, I've agreed with you. One person will make a Super Bowl ad. Now, my response to that, that said a year ago was that I do believe that I know we're constructing new mediums, we're constructing new experiences around AI.
[00:06:19] And, and we think about all the people that it affects. The people or the systems of making or things like that, that it affects. But we also understand we're, we're creating experiences that are arguably, will be known as AI based experiences. And of course that will be transcendent or that will be, that will be widely transformative in terms of how people experience media, or engagements, whatever they might be. They know they're built through systems of technologies and indeed AI.
[00:06:51] But I find it ironic that we think it is such a powerful tool and such a powerful making experience and so radically new. Whereas when you're watching the content itself, arguably, you can pretty much guess when you're seeing AI. You can, particularly now.
[00:07:05] Now I absolutely think that'll transform and become more naturalized, and will become undetectable. What type of experience it is. But it is unique that, or it is interesting that as much as we see how strong this is or, or see these momentous things, at the same time, they do look like AI.
[00:07:24] Again, it's more important, that said, to recognize, that's going to move, that's going to become undetectable. But naturalization or naturalized experiences or things like that, that aren't high contrast, look, we look, you're a traitor right now. You know what I mean? We do know that AI can create sort of real people interviews, create meta-humans that are in the world, and I have seen those experiences there. You know, those builds there.
[00:07:48] But again, I think this is just going to open up a world, maybe as importantly as anything in terms of different types of experiences that can be created in motion AI.
[00:07:59] Charles: Why do you think we can tell the difference, the technical aspects aside? Maybe the picture is a little too perfect or the setting. What is it that allows us instinctively because to understand, I'm looking at an AI generated piece of video or, or picture? There's something about the human quality, right? There is
[00:08:17] David Rolfe: There's something unique, by the way, I also said that most, almost the time when both you and I look at a AI based thing, it's set up and shared that it's AI based. So one of my answers is that because somebody's already told us that this is AI, I'm like, look what I did. And obviously that won't be the—
[00:08:32] Charles: But, if you looked at a 20 minute show reel of a mix of human production and AI production, do you think you could tell the difference every time?
[00:08:43] David Rolfe: No, absolutely not. And you just hit it on the head, which is we're in a state of hybridity and we'll continue to be in that sort of state in terms of what are the tools of making, what are the capture dynamics, what are the origination dynamics of something we've seen and how is that delivered?
[00:08:58] And I think that can happen to a variety of ways. I mean, if I'm creating on platform, I could be absolutely insistent on capturing thing with a 4K camera in my hand and what have you. But the tools at my disposal in terms of what I want to do with that content.
[00:09:13] And by that I don't mean put alien ears on things or whatever. But how I want to augment that experience, whether it's through my sort of editorial creation workflows or how I want to be augmentative with it or, or what I want to set up around it, that's going to come from any sort of medium.
[00:09:28] So you're right. So in that situation, we'll have naturalized media that'll be affected by AI based media, that could be affected by traditional or legacy models of editorial, some sort of filtration system of how we make content. And I think that's going to happen obviously at the premium level, at the premium, you know, branded content experience level, which is a long form storytelling. Like everything has been democratized, too. I did a, a jury this year in entertainment that explored, that explored the differences between advertising as being interrupted versus often experienced, that is so critical to entertainment.
[00:10:05] But I feel like entertainment has changed so much when Entertainment Lions started out that I could argue that entertainment is as interruptive as advertising. You know what I mean? My joy in content comes through some form of an algorithm. It's found me in one way or another.
[00:10:19] It's just I've opted in for what I prefer. And I think marketing and advertising will work the same way. And I think, you know, AI will continue to open up all the sort of makers and creators, it's going to open up our ability to be as prolific as ever from, from anywhere.
[00:10:35] Charles: I mean it absolutely, to your point, democratizes anybody's ability to be a content creator, right? We can all have a voice, we can all do this. The technology exists to be able to do this. Do you think, are we dealing at the moment with a situation in which the difference between human content and AI content is that the human content somehow we feel has a soul?
[00:10:57] Is there a a relationship difference that we have instinctively whereby we're able to recognize some human created this because I can feel something from it and a machine created this because it looks amazing, but I'm not really, I'm not really emotionally engaged with it.
[00:11:13] Is that fair?
[00:11:15] David Rolfe: I think that, I think that will come forward. That's what I was even trying to say with regard to the Super Bowl response, that I think that someone would like the kind of rich experience or some form of experience that they know has essentially human with augmented through whatever sort of tools, what have you, but is perhaps quintessentially human.
[00:11:35] But how to detect that and, and, and what the sort of structural components of how that was made. You know, there's quite a variety of, of how that might happen. I don't think it'll be directly sort of a polarized experience, whereas there's sort of naturalized content or, or human versus machine-based content or something like that.
[00:11:54] I don't think it'll be a dichotomy by any means. I just think we're going to see, you know, there'll be a lot of complexity out there and, and I do think, that in and of itself makes it sort of hybrid, and there will be appreciation for all different types of medium types.
[00:12:09] And by the way, I said media types, but I'd say medium types. It's a blend. Like I, you know what, I'm not sure what that sort of construct is now that we have AI because we can be so, productive.
[00:12:21] Charles: Last year you, you posited a reference, which I found really powerful and, and insightful whereby you said, there's really no difference between ideation and production anymore. That we are already at a point where you are already creating it as you're thinking about it, as you're coming up with it.
[00:12:37] I presume that you are even further down that reality today. How is ideation starting? How do people begin the process of creating something?
[00:12:48] David Rolfe: Well, first of all, from a standpoint of the idea of any idea being able to spring to prototype in the immediate um, it, it couldn't be more true. And that, and that, that itself takes in, in like areas like my community, the sort of marketing and creation world, you're iterating as soon as you're thinking.
[00:13:06] So anyway, that has realized itself. Right now, if the medium is going to be visual in terms of where you're taking idea from, it is going to be largely visual, you are visualizing at the outset and your visualization will inform how you want to sort of, from a component standpoint build what that experience is.
[00:13:25] Something you could pull directly from that prompt based visualization, that sort of interaction, sometimes it could lead to the creative development of your ideation, being able to, you know, prototype in the immediate against things. Sometimes it's an artifact, it's an extension.
[00:13:40] There's lots of thinking, there's lots of dialectic that you're doing, whether it's in your head or whether it's, you know, you orchestrated an agentic process in terms of your creative development. Or whether it's you simply prompt engineering for your ideation. Again, it can happen in a variety of different ways. But ultimately we will be much more immediately able to visualize, and that is going to inform how you want to go out creating that ultimate shareable artifact.
[00:14:05] Not to mention the fact that we think of like beta world in terms of like, I'm building technologies, I'm building platforms, I'm building systems, whatever. And then you iterate through beta and then you put beta in market. But now we will develop things as we go. There'll be configuration, you'll do co-creation with audience because you'll make something, put it in the world, and then that itself could modify through back and forth and things like that, you'll be able to so immediately build.
[00:14:32] And we're finding that's a, the state of things in terms of AI now. I've heard more than ever when we're creating, when we're doing studio, our, our studio is doing sort of AI first build. And the amount of times I hear right now will, but this will work for mobile phones.
[00:14:46] Like, so clients are saying this will work for social, this will work even if it's not prepared, you know, for, for where it can head um, you know, for where for its sort of highest level sort of 4K, 4K attribution. But of course we'll be there by the time we're doing this again next year anyway. In terms of most medium side of things.
[00:15:03] The, the other thing I wanted to add, if you don't mind, I want to share something. One of the other things that, and I've alluded to before is there's an assumption, which is obviously fair, that production is going to, I'm not, it's certainly people aren't saying it's table stakes or it's, it's commoditized or something like that. I mean, some may and or go that way, but that production is going to be so accessible and so easy that the organic thing is, is ideation, is ideation.
[00:15:35] And, and I don't agree with that. I would almost argue that interestingly, and you know me for a long time, that I do believe that ideation obviously is at its best when it's, when of course it's manifest and it lives in the world, and that is done through an executional process. That executional process is always, always been for me, 20 years. That's a dialectic. That's two things clashing, that's pure ideation, along with functions of how it arrives to expression, how it arrives in the world. You're taking inputs, which is ideational inputs, and then you're, you're attributing to that executional input and then that creates a synthesis, which is that ultimate expression.
[00:16:13] And I think that just because it is so accessible, indeed, the tools of making and making and doing, but we all know that, you know, uh, particularly with, the functions of AI being able to speak to each other and, and take on roles through our agentic process. How we simulate what are, what is a great idea, a great idea is juxtapositions, you know, it's taking juxtapositions that are new or surprising.
[00:16:36] We will be able to build AI tools that will be able to give us juxtapositions, that will fulfill us, that we can bring. But the greatest process amongst that is indeed that prototype or that expressive factor, that creation factor of how we iterate the builds that we make. Which is a form of production.
[00:16:53] So I would argue that the most important thing really is that synthesis of how we take ideation of where it comes from. But it is definitely going to be embedded in AI creation and it'll be tantamount to AI just as sort of productivity or what have you is. it's that synthesis that will create the expressions that will rise to the top.
[00:17:13] Charles: So production has always been chemistry, of all kinds of different things. Your proposition is, it's just a different kind of chemistry at this point. We're just moving where the chemical equation happens.
[00:17:23] David Rolfe: It should maybe find its way to being familiar, even if we're doing it completely differently.
[00:17:28] Charles: Well, I, I mean, it's going to have to, right? Because the only way this is going to be a benefit to everybody is if ultimately, even though it's completely different, it actually becomes familiar, so the democratization of production can actually be meaningful.
[00:17:39] Because. Right. It's not democratized, if only a few people understand how to use what you've just described as a process. Do you think, in a very kind of baseline reference, do you think there'll still be shoots? Will people still go on shoots?
[00:17:54] David Rolfe: Yeah, but I think they'll be far simplified and that far more simplified and and strategized around sort of a component part. And, and this is the thing that I'm exploring the most of all, is in the redefinition of what I call origination. But I've had theories on that for a long time. I, I used to believe that if I worked, for instance, if I worked with a creator, I always thought that was an inherently much more efficient way of producing because I'm working with somebody who's already, already inherently making. They already have a creation cycle. As opposed to reinventing or reestablishing an entire new origination process, doing a shoot over and over and over again instead of literally identifying what already exists, what is already in a mode of creation anyway, you know. And then how what we build can be built for the future.
[00:18:43] So I've always tried to think in ways and then obviously we talk about sustainability and we talk about consumption in general. I think it's a very important thing to consider. And now where we're going with AI and particularly the functions of visualizations, the fun, the idea that that directly connected to ideation, you are going to be able to build component parts that will actually, in our terms, I'll say go to market, but be an expressive function of what your, your thinking is.
[00:19:11] And then there are some things you need to strategize and capture anew or grab, like in the world. What is capture now? Capture could be sort of the, in the world phase of of things. And I think that'll, that'll have its place.
[00:19:23] But, but again, our creative thinkers and makers are, are going to be so new. I'm just so curious whether it's, it's for a function that, you know, is it, is technology going to be, the new technologists going to be the new geniuses, creative technologists, or is it tool makers or, or thinkers of traditional banker that are crafts people that'll be able to adopt the tools effectively and change their, their, their toolkit to be able to be effective in terms of creating an AI?
[00:19:52] I'm not sure. It's, it's a blur where that's not set now. Right now I would say technology is quite the upper hand in terms of, creating sort of systems of, of things.
[00:20:04] Charles: If, if you're a young, wannabe filmmaker. What would you advise them to focus on? Do they need a camera?
[00:20:13] David Rolfe: I would have them focus on, on, on just being entirely open-minded and in terms of not being precious about a particular practice or, or a mode of capture, whether like really think in terms of hybrid creation. There's no question they should embed themselves in the tools of making, but allow that, the sort of rapidity of expression that that's going to happen with us through AI to then inform how they, what they want to do.
[00:20:37] Maybe they want to simplify, maybe they want to repeat. I'm doing a real people spot in a week. I believe we should make it, that, that the, the primary briefing around it is that it's gotta feel real. It's gotta feel natural.
[00:20:50] Guess what? I could create a shot design, I could uh, create a jump cutting design. I could create, create simpler framing ideas by visualizing it entirely synthetically to then convert into help me inform how I might want to explore how deeply and naturally we will, we will build it in the real world or naturalize it. But you see that that's just brand new tools that, that we should utilize, you know, in order to, in order to get us there.
[00:21:17] Charles: You're always relentlessly optimistic and positive, right? I mean, you bring a natural positive energy to the, to what you do and to how you do it, to the world of production in general. What do you think are the cautionary tales? What are the things that we need to avoid as, as we become stronger partners with this technology?
[00:21:33] David Rolfe: Well, one thing I, sorry, I don't have a, I have a quick answer to that, but it's not a terribly thought through answer. But one thing that comes to mind so quickly is just de de hierarchization like. This is going to democratize more than ever, like the more than we've ever seen. And that, and that's very exciting.
[00:21:50] I think as, as leaders in expression, you know, whether it's marketing expression or entertainment expression or content expression or creator expression, you know, I, I just think we have to be entirely open-minded to the creators that could guide or create what we want to make.
[00:22:11] Obviously we know media will work differently in terms of that they will themselves become channels in and of themselves, which makes them marketers or makes them marketer outlets. Um, and so I'm just saying the biggest thing for me is just we need to really be open-minded about, about the thinkers and the types of, of people and creators that are making the work that we make.
[00:22:36] And because we know, like if, if people are watching TikTok basically as much as they're watching Netflix, Netflix is, let's look at what it is. It's, it's long form features. It's long episodic shows, it's things like that. But they're watching TikTok just as much, and that is entertainment.
[00:22:54] We've gotta also let that impact what people are adopting, what they're expressing. We, you know, You and I both like sport. We'll watch sport differently. We'll watch sport and watch sport more in bits than ever. At the same time, we love shared experience sport. I know you must watch the entirety of a football match, and that's, thankfully that's not going away.
[00:23:12] But we might watch it in different ways. We could watch it different ways on our mobile. We could watch a football match on vertical, you know, because, because we've opened up the doors for a creator to live capture scoring an event, and then did play by play within it or something like that.
[00:23:29] So all those things are democratized experience around things.
[00:23:32] And then the reason why somebody doesn't shoot an NBA basketball and then report in the NBA basketball game, and then people have dropped because the NBA doesn't let them. But the NBA will. The NBA will realize that they need to democratize the experience around how things are to adjust the platform and the way people like to experience media.
[00:23:51] Charles: What's your perspective on how we will actually engage with content, putting aside the process by which it's made? I mean, obviously Apple has tried to introduce their virtual headset, I think largely unsuccessfully. It's pretty cumbersome. You look kind of very, you look very silly wearing it. It's isolating.
[00:24:09] Do you think we will get to a point where the experience of engaging with content will become comprehensively more immersive than it is now. Where we're not just looking at a 16 by nine screen, it's whether a vertical or horizontal. That we will actually feel the experience.
[00:24:25] David Rolfe: I absolutely do, and I think it'll be user friendly, meaning I still think users will guide that. It'll still be these gigantic new sort of networks that will one way or another host that and monetize that and argue, you know, but, but not orchestrate it or control it.
[00:24:41] So I don't think it's like that metaverse and principle where everything is just this sort of infinite creator thing and I get to choose what I want to do. I do think there will still be consolidated platforms against things. But I think we will watch, you know, we will engage sort of content or, or experiences and that it's just the same way mobile game.
[00:25:01] It would be hard to, to think that a mobile game could be as popular as this incredible experience right there. We know that someone would use a mobile game on a subway. Okay, we get it. That's why mobile games suited whatever. But we always thought that the ultimate video game experience would be Xbox.
[00:25:18] And you're sitting there and you got your earphones on. It's this big thing. But, but so we said we accept that, those games and in that way. But the truth is that you might love or adore or or believe in, from a community standpoint, a video game that's right there on your 2D video game that's on your mobile, Um, as much as you do when you're freaking dialed in for eight hours with your widespread community on your high end, game in your bedroom.
[00:25:41] And, and by the way, why is that? Is it necessary? It's because gaming is communal. It's because there's other functions of that gaming experience that they've figured out that in turn have made it good.
[00:25:51] So that's what I mean by the type of experience we're sort of generating, adopting, participating in sharing is completely different. So that's what I mean by hierarchy. There is, there's no such thing anymore. And that's what I shared with my entertainment jury that I think that as advertising being knows entertainment, quote unquote does not be, need to be seen as an indict— as an indictment upon advertising.
[00:26:12] Like they're both frankly interrupted. They're both actually opting. And if you think about where advertising is doing from the standpoint of personalization, that itself is a more of an opt-in experience. That is an experience that inherently has more value to me, which therefore it has, you know, sort of underpinnings or nature of, of opt-in.
[00:26:32] Charles: So my last question, I'm conscious of both of our schedules, but my last question today is this is an industry that doesn't like to acknowledge the fact that consumers spend hundreds of billions of dollars a year to avoid in interacting and engaging with its output. Every one of us who subscribes to a channel is doing so because we don't want to watch the ads. I don't think there's another industry that I can think of where people are willing to spend so much money to avoid engaging it. I–Imagine if we were spending that kind of money to avoid other things in, in the world. It's a remarkable phenomenon that we sit in Cannes and kind of pretend doesn't really exist. But it strikes me listening to you that there is a fundamental opportunity for the advertising marketing industry, to actually become relevant, interesting, valuable to consumers in a way that perhaps has not been ever possible and certainly hasn't really been part, hasn't been true for, I would argue, 20 years or so.
[00:27:34] Do you think that's fair?
[00:27:35] David Rolfe: I mean, you said it, you said it perfectly, and I, and I thank you for it. But that has been my point. That has been my discovery. I, I feel like I was on it, but I felt it even more, more so of late that we have every opportunity to deliver so much utility in terms of, because we've got democratization, we've actually got a fusion of, of entertainment has changed. Even 1, 2, 3 years has dramatically changed. I did the first entertainment Lions jury, it's, that was when entertainment was a thing. Now entertainment is spread. That's before TikTok. You know, you use the term, “I'm watching TikTok,” you know. But you're right, that, that, that I do actually think that we have, we will have designs.
[00:28:15] I think that we could be in a, in a state where we're just, we're squarely opted in one way or another because we've been able to design against experience or design our communication, design our messaging or things to lend more utility to that experience.
[00:28:31] And then by the way, when I'm not paying to avoid ads, I made a decision to, to receive advertising of which I have some form or another tolerance of, or I've discovered some utility in. Indeed don't want to pay the money.
[00:28:44] But that itself will, will, will of course be more value intensive, you know, and, and we'll get to that state where, again, I, I do think marketers will be able to fuse across the board in terms of experiences.
[00:28:56] Charles: Well, imagine you get to the point where I want to avoid all advertising except McDonald's advertising because I like McDonald's. I mean, that would be a, that would be a moment.
[00:29:04] David Rolfe: Then McDonald's is responsible as being sort of a publisher—
[00:29:07] Charles: Right, right, right.
[00:29:09] David Rolfe: —of that channel. And then, how do things—
[00:29:10] Charles: That feels like that would be a healthier place for this industry to get to where will actually.
[00:29:14] David Rolfe: Burger King will come up with more challenger brand type stuff and there'll be more edgy—
[00:29:18] Charles: Yeah.
[00:29:18] David Rolfe: —to jump over to that.
[00:29:19] Charles: Let's hope that we get to that kind of future. It'll be good for all of us. Dave, thank you so much for joining me. Same time next year.
[00:29:24] David Rolfe: Yes, exactly.
[00:29:25] Charles: Okay. See you then.
[00:29:26] David Rolfe: See you, Charles.
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