278: Shu Hung - "The Quiet Leader"

Shu Hung of AKQA

Do you welcome the sounds of silence?

"FEARLESS CREATIVE LEADERSHIP" PODCAST - TRANSCRIPT

Episode 278: Shu Hung

Here's a question. Do you welcome the sounds of silence?

Hello, I'm Charles Day. Welcome to Fearless Creative Leadership, now in audio and video.

Here we explore how people in all walks of life, from business leaders to artists to athletes, unlock creativity and innovation in themselves and in the people around them.

And in the process, how they move the world forward.

This episode's guest is Shu Hung. She's the Global Chief Creative Officer of AKQA. In a complicated world, Shu has learned that knowing who you are is the foundation on which leadership success is built.

“I would get feedback like, you don't talk enough. You really react with your face too much. And those are all traits of somebody who's a little more introverted. And I, for the longest time, I was like, oh my gosh, these are not strengths. I've got to work on this. Oh, I've got to speak up. And I remember I had this trick where I would say, okay, in this meeting, I'm going to speak three times.

And it was like, you know, it's like this codified challenge that at the end of the day, it's not who you are. And that's why I keep going back to - please, please come as you are.”

Please come as you are. There is such profound truth in that request, and such enormous challenge. We spend so much of our lives wondering if we measure up, if we're doing things the right way, if we have approval from the right people. And the energy that's required in all of that self doubt is not just exhausting, but it denies us access to the instincts, the consciousness, the confidence that creativity thrives on.

Life is a journey that at the end will only be judged by the one person that matters, you. And the sooner we discover who we are, the sooner we can discover what we're capable of.

Please come as you are. Words to live by.

Here's Shu Hung.

[00:01:58] Charles: Shu, welcome to Fearless. Thank you so much for joining me on the show.

[00:02:00] Shu Hung: Charles, thanks so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

[00:02:04] Charles: When did creativity first show up in your life? When are you first aware of creativity being a thing?

[00:02:08] Shu Hung: I think from the moment I could probably see and write and speak. So at a really early age, we immigrated from mainland China to Hong Kong to Seattle, Washington. And I think those early memories in Seattle were so formative because I was just allowed to explore and I did a lot of drawing. I was learning different languages. And so all of that to me is, is part of creativity. It's definitely part of what informs how I work and the work I do now.

[00:02:42] Charles: How old were you when you made the move?

[00:02:45] Shu Hung: I was two when I made the move. Yeah. So I, I still remember the plane ride and it was back when those giant Boeing's had a single seat in the back, like a bus.

[00:02:55] Charles: Yes. Yes.

[00:02:57] Shu Hung: Yeah, I, I do. I, that's what I remembered from, from the move over, funnily enough.

[00:03:02] Charles: How did you express yourself growing up? What were your media?

[00:03:06] Shu Hung: I loved talking to people . I remember, and nowadays this is forbidden, but I would go up to strangers and just start chatting with them. I, I didn't mind. I just I found that kind of energy between people really exciting and interesting. And so that that was probably the first mode of expression.

[00:03:27] Charles: What was the cultural transition like for you? Obviously at two years old you haven't had a huge amount to be aware of, but subconsciously a lot of stuff does sink in, I think including the foundations of language. What was the transition like for you from a cultural standpoint?

[00:03:43] Shu Hung: I think it was really exciting because on the one hand I'd had, a couple of years with my parents being in China and Hong Kong and the culture there, which is very exciting and it's busy cities . And it's just like a kind of, you're living with your grandparents, so inter, intergenerational households.

And then I think switching to Seattle, which is where we landed, which is a lot quieter, it's more about nature. It's more about, I think, being in the home and less outside and out and about. So it was really interesting transition. But at the same time, like endlessly fascinating for me. And to go from I think the outside spaces and yeah, the city space to, okay, what can I do on my own? Like, how can I watch as much television as possible? And read as many books. And so really just like devouring kind of anything that was around me.

[00:04:37] Charles: Were you conscious that your parents were having a different experience than you were in terms of their adjustment?

[00:04:41] Shu Hung: I think later on I was. I do remember those moments where, you know, because my parents immediately had to start working and they were, they were working pretty much either, my father was training to be a cook. or a chef at the time.

He had been a physicist in China and he'd been a professor of that. And at the time when they left, he put all of that behind him. And he was like what is the work I can do here without knowing the language and without having, specific skillsets.

So he was cooking in restaurants. My mother who had always been an amazing seamstress, like incredible. She could literally sew anything, from a wedding dress to a, you know, a stuffed animal. So she became a seamstress at one of the factories in Seattle. So they were really just grinding it out.

They, they had to work and they didn't have the opportunity to learn English like I did. They didn't have time to go to the library. And I do remember there were times we would be at the grocery store and there would be some sort of communication mishap with my mother and the checkout person.

And I just remember being like, this is so awkward and how can I help? And, and that friction that it didn't, I didn't have as much of that because I was learning. But for her, it was really challenging. I remember just feeling that. Had so much empathy.

[00:06:05] Charles: But I would imagine also in a way flip the relationship on its head because suddenly you became parental. You understood and they didn't.

[00:06:14] Shu Hung: That has happened a lot and I think as a child when you're in that situation on the one hand you're like emboldened. You're like wow this is, okay let me see how this, how this works. But at the same time, you're still a kid and there are so many limits to that. But yeah, that was absolutely something I felt growing up is, is having to take the reins a lot. But also knowing when to step back and it's no, no, they're, they're the parent. And I've got to respect that too.

[00:06:42] Charles: Sounds like good early leadership lessons. When did leadership come into focus for you? When did that become something that you that you wanted to do? And let me ask you, do you, do you want to lead? Do you, do you actually enjoy leading?

[00:06:54] Shu Hung: There are elements of leading that I really enjoy. I love like putting people together and seeing how teams of people can flourish. And I like to step back. I'm sure you've heard this a lot, Charles, like in your interviews, the idea of more of a servant leadership perspective. How can I be helpful is really more the mindset.

I do remember in high school, I on a lark, I was like, I'm going to try to be the senior class president. And then I won. And I was a little bit surprised. But I was also like, okay, cool, how am I going to change this type of role here? And I was very ambitious about it, . But I also felt that. I'm not, I'm not a typical leader in the sense of loud and bombastic and, and top down or dictatorial. And even at that time, I could see it was more about coalition building and collaboration.

It's okay, what are you good at? Cool. Let's bring that and let's lean into that. Not forcing people into things in order to execute my quote unquote vision.

[00:08:05] Charles: So how do you bring your vision? How do you introduce your vision? I hesitate to use the word sell. That seems a little bit too pushy. But how do you introduce your vision into the conversation for people?

[00:08:17] Shu Hung: So much of it is the energy you feel with people when you're interacting. I think some of the best things are unsaid, and really much, much more about, yeah, how do we feel when we're with each other? How do I make you feel? Hopefully you feel comfortable. Hopefully you're engaged.

Hopefully you can express the best parts of yourself or not. Up to you. But hopefully you can just be who you are. And I think to me, the vision is like how can I help you be who you are and express the parts of you that you love and that we can take into our business .

[00:08:59] Charles: The evolution in your career has has brought you to a place now where you suddenly have a whole different set of responsibilities. And I'm also conscious of the fact that you've worked across a variety of different kinds of companies for creativity.

Let's start there, actually. In the different kinds of businesses, what have you found are common practices that unlock creative thinking in people?

[00:09:21] Shu Hung: I think it does go back to what I said about allowing people to be themselves and really share, not just their skills, but also the things they're interested in, in, in the job.

So I think that feels like places where people can really express and are comfortable. Those are the places where people are the most engaged. Where there is a sense of freedom. There is a sense of support. There's strong mentorship, but there's also financial backing. And I think a little bit of the kind of clarity of roles. Here is what you absolutely need to do for this. But also a little bit of fuzziness of the role.

And here's what you can also do in addition to that. So much of it, it's it's a balance, I think. And those are the places that I think have been the most, creativity really flourish. So like Nike, when I was there it was exactly that. It's here's your role, here's what you, need to achieve, from a business perspective. But the way you get there and the collaborations, the types of kind of meandering interactions and projects, that's all on you. And to me that kind of focus, but fuzzy. I'm not sure how we describe it. Those places are very successful for creative people.

[00:10:40] Charles: There requires a high degree of confidence by senior leadership in those companies to create that kind of environment, where you're giving permission to people to figure it out for themselves and chart their own course.

What did you learn about the finding the right balance from a leadership standpoint between freedom and responsibility?

[00:11:02] Shu Hung: Always having the business objectives in mind. I think that's really core. But always having the objectives related to humanity and to people in mind. Having that balance was really important.

I think seeking answers in places that weren't obvious. The PowerPoint isn't going to give you the answer. But maybe, I don't know, going outside my or going to a rave, or going to a reading, or a gallery, or a restaurant or maybe a part of town that you haven't been to. That's what's going to inform the answer. I think really, really observing how people are in the real world will always yield the best creative inputs and answers.

[00:11:45] Charles: Nike, from the outside anyway, is very much a mindset, right? It's an attitude. How do you take , the fuel that that provides, that already exists when you arrive, and then nurture it and shape it so that it's actually useful for what it is that you want to achieve?

[00:12:02] Shu Hung: So yeah, the spirit is always about entrepreneurialism. It's, it's very emboldened by kind of the same mindset as an athlete might have.

A lot of people there were athletes, elite athletes, which was so exciting and inspiring. And like the athlete mindset really does fuel a lot of, of the work, and the way the work is done. And I think for me, yeah, I actually, I do have an athlete's mindset. I, I'm not, big team sports person.

But that idea of constant, how do you improve yourself? But also find balance. Those things you can take and shape the way you want to, there were all kinds of leaders there. It was great. You had people who were definitely more outspoken.

And then you had people who were like me, like a little bit quieter and let's let the room breathe and let's listen and, and then have a point of view, and influence that way. So I think that just fundamentally , that spirit was mutable. And I think the kinds of people who were brought in allowed for that. It wasn't this strict thing. Like you've got to be a certain kind of way. It was actually like here's the overarching philosophy and take it as you will. As you are,

[00:13:09] Charles: Is there a lot of testosterone in an environment like that?

[00:13:13] Shu Hung: Yes. There's tons.

[00:13:14] Charles: How do you as a, as a self-described quieter person meld into that or, or interact with that? Probably better put

[00:13:24] Shu Hung: Charles, this is like the number one management thing that I think about all the time is this idea of quiet leadership in a very loud environment.

And I think there was that book, quiet. I don't remember the author, but it came out a few years ago, and it was all about the power of having more of a quiet leadership approach. And at Nike, it came up all the time.

I would get feedback like you don't talk enough. You react with your face too much. And those are all traits of somebody who's a little more introverted. And I, for the longest time, I was like, oh my gosh, these are not strengths. I've got to work on this. Oh, I've got to speak up.

And I remember I had this trick where I would say, okay, in this meeting, I'm going to speak three times.

And it was like, it's like this codified challenge that at the end of the day, it's not who you are. And that's why I keep going back to - please come as you are.

And I know this contradicts a little bit of what I said before about Nike, but I do appreciate that as well. Because even though it is uncomfortable, you do push yourself to see, okay what are my limits, as a leader, as a manager in this meeting. Like how far do I push myself which, which is really interesting.

But at the same time, at my core, yes, I am a listener and I am an observer. And all those brands, all those companies need people like that as well. So I think it was a matter of how to take those traits and skills and, and really utilize them with the testosterone and the loud voices.

Like, how do you complement that? Or how do you push beyond it? And have that complement you? I think there, there are really interesting ways and I, would love to unpack more of that, but that was how I approached it.

[00:15:10] Charles: And how did you respond to yourself on those days or in those meetings where you didn't meet your self defined quota? Were you beating yourself up because you hadn't done what you wanted to? Were you reflecting on the meeting and the fact that it went well, despite the fact you didn't meet your self defined quota? What was your self perception and reaction to that?  

[00:15:29] Shu Hung: I think it depended on the meeting, but there would be times where I would think I didn't make the quota , do I have to double down next time? Is it six comments? It's ridiculous, right? But I think that in the end, when I saw the work that we were able to achieve with how I lead and I was like, we've done a ton of great projects. So in the end didn't, it, it didn't matter if I said three things in a meeting , it all came out in the wash because look at what we've been able to do. And I think at that point, quiet leadership is extremely powerful in its own way. And, you can achieve so much.

[00:16:06] Charles: And did you become an evangelist overtly for quiet leadership? So that was something that you started to propagate within Nike?

[00:16:15] Shu Hung: I think in a subtle way, yes. I, I love to collaborate with other leaders who had a similar approach to me. But also ones who didn't. But I definitely championed this style of leadership.

And I think when I went to Uniqlo, which is where I landed after Nike, the quietness became a superpower. Because, when you're working in a company founded, Japanese founder, very much of the culture in terms of management and style, quietness and listening, and then coming back with a statement, that's how you work and that's how you achieve things in an environment like that.

[00:17:00] Charles: It's such a powerful reference point. The idea that leadership is fundamentally driven by speaking, by action, by being out in front, I think to your earlier point, is In my experience, increasingly remarkably outdated. And I think it also explains something that we've learned as a leadership advisory coaching practice in the last few years. We've developed a creativity diagnostic. It allows us to come into organizations and help them recognize the things they're doing that are unlocking creative thinking for their people and the things they're doing that are getting in the way.

And one of the insights that we've learned is that we have yet to come across a leadership team that is actually aligned. A lot of them talk about it. And even if you spend a ton of time on it, we've discovered leadership teams are not aligned. They don't share the same priorities.

And I think, there's a number of reasons for that, but one, I think, is the one you've just made, which is leaders spend too much time talking and not enough listening. And so they are convincing themselves that the thing they believe is important is shared by everybody else, because no one's overtly opposing that. Mostly because no one's got time to do it, because they're onto the next thing.

So I think this idea of quiet leadership, which I love, and I hope you've branded, because it feels like it ought to be branded, is a very powerful concept and also very much of the time in these crazy turbulent times we're living in. The ability to stop, pause, listen, hear, see others, I think is going to become an increasingly important part of leadership in the most creative and innovative businesses.

Does that resonate for you? I'm imagining it does.

[00:18:37] Shu Hung: Charles, it resonates. It resonates so much for me. And I really love that you are suggesting that it's right for the time because I feel that I feel that way as well. I feel wow, after all these years the quiet leaders are there's, there's so much power in that and what we've developed. And now it's a matter of yes, how do we lead, but also complement. How do we share our point of view in a way that It isn't in a massive kind of megaphone style way. What are our tools, for asserting a vision?

And I think that that's almost the next piece of this is okay, if there is quiet leadership and that is a thing, what are the tools to lead with that style? And that's something I definitely think about a lot.

[00:19:25] Charles: And what are the benefits of that, right? In which people can actually feel that they're being heard and recognized. And that people's success is not dependent upon having the loudest voice or the voice that's heard most frequently.

When you moved to Uniqlo, were you looking overtly for an environment that promoted or allowed that more easily? Were you conscious of that when you were engaging with them?

[00:19:50] Shu Hung: I was. That, that was something that was appealing to me. I loved the idea of working more closely with a company with Asian roots. With a company that really did make incredible product. I don't know, Charles, you're probably wearing heat tech. Hopefully.

[00:20:07] Charles: I have, I have a Uniqlo, I have two Uniqlo vests sitting downstairs actually waiting for me.

[00:20:12] Shu Hung: Yeah. You, the superiority of what they make. I had a wonderful mentor, John Jay, who I had known for many years, who ended up becoming the President of fast retailing, which is the parent company of Uniqlo.

And then he had spoken to me about what do you think about coming over and leading creative over here? And just was an amazing opportunity. And I think John is also someone who manages to balance the quiet listener, observer, leader. But, also is able to be the person on stage and rally everybody.

So to me, it was like, what a fantastic opportunity for all those reasons.

[00:20:52] Charles: Do you have that ability too?

[00:20:55] Shu Hung: I think so. I'd love to think that I, I did. Yeah, I actually love being on stage, oddly. I think that there's something so exciting about it, this anticipatory feeling of getting ready to present and the engagement with the audience, even though you're giving the talk, there's still this element of the energy, that you're all there together. It's cosmic.

[00:21:20] Charles: So what's the shape of quiet leadership in that kind of public forum?  

[00:21:26] Shu Hung: It starts before you even are speaking. I think it's, it's really considering the classic tenets. Who is the audience? What do they want to hear? What do they need to hear? And what are they hoping to hear?

And so really that kind of deep empathy for who you're speaking to. And shaping the talk or whatever it is so that it, it engages with them and hopefully offers something, meaningful for them. So, it's like prior to even getting on, you're really considering those elements.

And then I think when you're in that situation, it is like seeing all the faces. The excitement I have is, oh my gosh, all these people are here. They're listening. They're here to. It's, it's like a giddiness. And then I think having these kinds of direct moments with people where you're looking at them, you're making eye contact, people are nodding. All of the subtleties that are perceptible for certain types of people. Like that's very exciting to me when I am in a situation like that.

And then, of course, afterwards, there's the direct engagement of people ask questions, spontaneity of that. So I love this conversation because it's so we don't know where it's going, but it's very fun. And, and then afterwards, rest. It's like we have to rest. We've shared a lot we've expended a ton of energy. Let's take it down.

[00:22:47] Charles: So the contrast between the way you described your presence in meetings and having to challenge yourself to speak more frequently and your willingness to speak publicly, not just your willingness but clearly your enjoyment of it, are interesting. There's an interesting tension between those two.

What have you learned that helps you understand where each of those pieces come from. And are they discordant in your mind or are they part of the same construct?

[00:23:19] Shu Hung: I think they might be part of the same construct. I think that the meeting situation, there's a little bit less control, depending on the form of the meeting, the people in there. Everyone's got a different point of view and different objectives. And so there's a bit of let's listen and see what all of the objectives are. And then I can jump in.

The format of the talk is permission or permission based. So, of course, you've been asked to do this. This is your moment. Please, now's your time. And it's very different. And I think the permission piece is really key. And I do think it's something that has to be. And I think, of course, now I do talk in meetings, but I don't need the three sentence mandate.

But I, I think that the idea of permission in the meeting with the other people we have to get over that. We're in the meeting. So automatically we have permission. You have the thought, so why not express it?

 If we go back to that idea of we're only with each other in these cosmic moments for a reason, then might as well say what we're thinking. So yeah, I've definitely done a lot of thinking about this, but it's such a great question, Charles, because they do seem at odds, but actually they're probably on the same spectrum.

[00:24:42] Charles: And this is very personal. You may tell me you don't want to answer this. But what role, if any, has imposter syndrome played in that? Because a lot of people, not just women, obviously, I was interviewing Jim Stengel a little while ago, and I asked him, and he said, every, every day, I suffer from this every day.

If you look at Jim from the outside, it would be impossible to imagine that that was true. But what, what role, if any, did imposter syndrome play in your quietness in meetings?

[00:25:11] Shu Hung: I think it, of course, had a huge role. I mentioned the class president election and how surprised I was. Like, oh my gosh, wow, I got elected. Even after making the posters and doing the whole thing. . And I think, these boardroom meetings or whatever these are. There is always a sense of, wow, okay I'm here and I'm doing this. And I think you never have all the answers. And, and I think that's partially why listening is such a skill because you're listening and trying to find the truth in what everyone is saying, and then you're, you're sharing your point of view after.

[00:25:52] Charles: What drew you to the agency world?

[00:25:56] Shu Hung: I was really excited about working on brands outside of apparel. And I've always loved, automotive. I've always loved learning more about the tech industry. Beauty. There's so much out there. And I think having a curious mind, you're like how can I help problem solve for some of these other sectors?

And the other reason I went back to the agency side was really, there were two really important people who had joined AKQA. One of them was Tessa Aragones, who is now the CEO of North America. And she is a longtime friend and mentor of mine. Absolutely one of the best leaders I've ever worked with and known. And just like a compassionate human being. I felt wow, I could finally go into a place where the leadership are exciting and people I'm close to. And the work is amazing, innovative. So those were all the reasons. I couldn't say no.  

[00:26:59] Charles: And what was your expectation and how has that been met by reality?

[00:27:06] Shu Hung: My expectation was that there would be these incredible pods of people working on different projects all around the world. And that the work would be innovative, but not necessarily innovative in like a pure technological point of view. But innovative in how they were helping clients. Maybe innovative in how they were servicing clients in the, the actual communication that was coming out, the quality. I think all of that is true. In fact, I think it's, it's a lot more collaborative than I imagined. We're working with Tokyo right now. We're in LA. We work with New York, all the time. There are projects that go from Europe to Asia. So it really does span the globe and to me that's really really exciting. It's really been a ton of variety and every day is a different challenge.

[00:28:04] Charles: And I would be remiss if I didn't, before we wrap, ask you at least one question about AI. And obviously we could spend the entire week discussing it.

And I did a series of podcasts last summer in the lead up to Cannes, in partnership with Cannes, with the Cannes Lions, and talk to I think a dozen different people from across the entire marketing communications community. And I was struck, as I said in the wrap piece that I did, about what I perceived, and I don't really have yet reason to change my view about this, which is that many areas of the industry are just moving, I think, too slowly and not recognizing the speed of evolution of this.

Nick Law, at Accenture Song, when I asked him the question, what do you think the industry will look like in three years said, filled with companies that don't exist today. Because the challenge of evolving current businesses with the human challenge of exponential growth and just the kind of sclerotic nature of the way the industry is set up and selling creative ideas by the hour doesn't work in an AI driven world where the efficiency of taking people out of the equation at the lower ends of the spectrum in terms of the, the, the busy work that companies get paid a lot of money for, is going to go away. Large parts of it are going to go away.

And I had a very interesting debate over the last couple of weeks with different clients about whether the future of the organizational structure would be there is a top and then, is there a middle but no bottom or is there a no middle and a bottom?

So the question was, if you have a middle and no bottom, where did the middle people come from? And if you don't have a middle, how did the bottom people move up to the top? I think these are really fascinating and important questions to wrestle with.

[00:29:50] Shu Hung: If you were to roll the clock forward, 18 months, say, where do you think we'll be in terms of AI's involvement in the marketing communications industry, the creative industries?

My own personal use of this has accelerated in the last few months, which says a lot, both for work and, other and non work, which is amazing. This is not the end all. We will not be replaced necessarily.

[00:30:24] Shu Hung: However, I do think there's so many efficiencies that we can find through AI tools. I was listening to another podcast and they described it as whereas computing was more like an orchestra with sheet music and everyone had their very distinct roles to play. And it was the beginning and an end

AI provides something more akin to jazz. And it's improvisational. It's much more about the interaction among the musicians, the kind of re reaction to things. It's very fluid, feels very alive. And I think this is such an apt description of it. So for me, it's okay, if it is more like jazz, how do we listen to jazz? But also, how do we influence it? What's interesting about it? Where can we play in and guide it and be one of the musicians in it. Or offer our voice, over the music to create something like really, you know, really fun and surprising.

So I don't have a perfect answer for you, but I love that metaphor because I feel like if we, if we think of it that way we can really harness its power. And we can also work with it and expand it . It is kind of like, there's the ultimate freedom in there. Much less so than in the old ways. So we'll see.

[00:31:46] Charles: We will indeed, won't we? And we will all be fascinated by the outcome.

I really want to thank you for coming on the show today. I have so appreciated your thoughtfulness, your sensitivity, your humanity, and the quiet that you promote, which as I said earlier, I think is such an underestimated, undervalued, overlooked quality in the best leaders. And I wish you nothing but success going forward as the company continues to evolve. And as you take these brave steps into the future. Thank you very much indeed for coming on.

[00:32:20] Shu Hung: Charles, thank you so much. What an incredible conversation. I appreciate it. 

—————

If you'd like to know more about our work with the leaders of highly creative and innovative businesses, go to fearlesscreativeleadership.com. There, you'll also find the audio and the transcript of every episode. Or, go to our YouTube channel for the video of our most recent conversations.

Fearless is produced by Podshop. Sarah Pardoe is the show's producer and handles all guest inquiries. You can reach her at sarah@fearlesscreativeleadership.com.

And thanks for listening.