Lisa Fischer
When do you stop and take a breath?
"FEARLESS CREATIVE LEADERSHIP" PODCAST - TRANSCRIPT
Episode 279: Lisa Fischer
Here's a question. When do you stop and take a breath?
Hello, I'm Charles Day, and welcome to Fearless Creative Leadership, now in audio and video. On this show, we explore how people in all walks of life, from business leaders, to artists, to athletes, unlock creativity and innovation in themselves and in the people around them, and in the process, how they move the world forward.
This episode's guest is Lisa Fischer. If you've listened to Luther Vandross or Tina Turner, or Sting, or Chaka Khan, or Teddy Pendergrass, or Roberta Flack, then you've heard Lisa sing. If you went to a Rolling Stones concert between 1989 and 2015, you saw Lisa as the band's lead female singer join Mick Jagger on stage.
If you've seen her in person, as I've been fortunate to have done so twice, or if you've seen her on YouTube, take over the stage from Tina Turner during It’s Only Rock and Roll, or the clips of her on stage with Mick Jagger, you already understand the extraordinary talent that she is linked to. Both of those are in the show notes.
And if you've watched 20 Feet from Stardom, then you already know that Lisa is one of the greatest background singers that the world has ever heard. For most of us, those 20 feet might as well be the length of a trip to Mars. For Lisa, who won a Grammy in 1991 and then decided not to take center stage, those 20 feet were a choice. A choice that brings her joy.
“That's the other thing, too, about just life for me. If I had tried to plan a moment where, gee, it would be great to do a duet with Tina Turner, it would've never happened for me. Something about my energy, it works better, when I take a breath, I put out my hands pointed to the sky and just allow the universe to gift me whatever it wishes to. For some reason, that, to me, brings me the most joy, as opposed to a chess game. For other people, chess game's really exciting.”
Lisa is a rare spirit who's had enormous influence and impact. If you see her perform, you're left with a belief that she has a direct connection with your soul. In those moments, she is alive in ways that stretch our understanding of what the word means.
Leadership at its heart is the ability to unlock the potential of others, to make them feel more connected. The very best leaders do that by helping us to understand ourselves better, by helping us feel what we had never felt before.
Lisa is proof that you don't have to stand center stage to do that. You just have to be honest with yourself about where you get your energy from, and then let that energy flow.
Here is the incomparable Lisa Fischer.
Charles (03:23):
Lisa, welcome to Fearless Creative Leadership. Thank you so much for coming on the show with me.
Lisa Fischer (03:26):
Thank you for having me. It was so beautiful. You and your beautiful wife greeted me at the front. It was just so beautiful and fuzzy. I love it. I love that energy.
Charles (03:37):
We've carried that energy with us since we saw you perform. Yeah (laugh). Let me start with my usual question, then I'll take it a different place. When did creativity first show up in your life? When are you first conscious of creativity as a force in the world?
Lisa Fischer (03:50):
I think it's according to what I, huh? What people consider creativity at any given time in their life. Right. So I think as a child, play is creativity, and I think, uh, being comfortable playing and learning through mistakes is also creativity. Um, so I think as a kid, I was always kind of aware of, uh, working with my hands or drawing or building things or making sound or imagining stories. Um, it's all this, uh, beautiful, um, palette, uh, like, like almost like, um, uh, like an art easel and, um, in front of your eyes, but it's actually life. And then you get to like toss all this paint all over it. And to me, as a kid, every day was like that. It's like I didn't know what to expect, and then when I thought I knew what to expect, life would go, nah, we're changing.
We're switching it up. You know? So it kind of, I think the idea of being creative is, is being open and being playful. Even as I'm getting older, I'm kind of feeling that as well. I mean, there, you know, you learn how to, you get your tools and different things that, um, you get to use to make this, to share the world that's in your brain with other people. So I think as I got older, I kind of felt like I was gathering more tools and more aware of gathering tools. And now it's kind of like, um, going back and forth between playing and gathering.
Charles (05:43):
Mm. Yeah. When did music show up in your life? When are you, when did you discover that you had that affinity?
Lisa Fischer (05:52):
I think music was around because my parents loved music. They were young parents, and they're always playing, you know, music and dancing and giggling and kissing and just all the sweet groovy stuff that, you know, 16 and 17 year-olds do. You know, um, I think just, it felt natural. I would hear my dad rehearsing. I would hear my mom humming. We got a piano, and they would be, my mom would be picking out a melody and trying to figure out how to play from a book, because she just loved the sound of the piano and music. Um, and so it just felt natural being in school, being in church, and just feeling that energy of like, there's this moment right before you make sound where everybody sort of aligns like in church where you are of one, basically of one mind or at least one purpose.
And how each mind translates that so that they can make the sound is their own individual and beautiful process. But there's this moment right before everybody, um, puts out sound and sings that intake a breath where everybody's like, you feel like you're at the edge of your seat and you're not quite sure what's gonna happen, but you're praying that it's all gonna be beautiful, you know? And I, I love that because it's never the same. You never know if somebody's gonna cough in the middle of, you know, singing a song or if someone's gonna hit a bad note and it doesn't even matter. It's about share this shared experience for me. And, and I've always been like, attracted to the shared experience.
Charles (07:44):
So the idea of creating community is, has always been an a part of what music gives you?
Lisa Fischer (07:49):
Yeah.
Charles (07:49):
And that you give is—
Lisa Fischer (07:51):
Yeah, I feel, um, all of my, especially my early experiences was always about singing with people, like vibrating sound with people. And then even when I would listen to records, I would always listen to the background parts, because to me, that was like, Ooh, a group of folks, ooh, they're, they're changing colors within themselves as a group by switching notes and switching, uh, textures. And I always wanted to know what each individual person or note was doing in order to make this tapestry of sound. And so I would lay on the floor near the speaker, and I would just listen over and over again to something. And I go, okay, so I know what the bottom is doing. I can see the map, I can see the lines in my mind of how the melodies moving up and down. And then I'd go to the next note or the next voice, and I'd figure that out.
I'm like, oh, that person's doing this. Interesting. I'm loving how the two of them sounding. So what about the third or fourth person? Or, oh, wait a minute, that note sounds like they're singing the same note. The weight of it is different because two people are on that note, you know, just taking apart everything. Um, and just really having like a, um, like an, I guess a memory for, for notes. Like, if I heard somebody sing something and I heard it enough, I could repeat it, or I can hear the memory of the note in my head. Uh, and so some people go, do you have perfect pitch? And I was like, I don't think I have perfect pitch, but I do have like, vibration note memory. Like, I could tell the difference between whether something's being played, if the same record is being played on AM radio or FM radio. Wow. It's such a slight difference in color and weight. It's kind of in the cracks, but it really made a difference. AM radio was always brighter and sharper, and then FM was always a hair slow and a little darker, even though it would be the same song, you know? And I go, wow, that's interesting. You know? Yeah.
Charles (10:05):
So the artist, the person whose picture was on the cover of the album was purely the catalyst for you to get to the group dynamic going on behind it, the chemistry happening behind it, the human connection happening behind it.
Lisa Fischer (10:17):
Yeah. I, I, even though I love looking at those album covers, like I would stare at the, the gloss, the colors they chose the pose of the artist and, and what it made me feel. And it felt like there was this album cover with Johnny Mathis on it, where it just had his face, and I could see his skin, and I could see every hair and his eyebrow and his beautiful lashes and his, his moisturized lips and, and the hair, you know, you feel like you see the hair shafts. And I felt like he was there with me. And so I didn't remember a whole lot of backgrounds on his record. It was mostly a lot of solo singing mostly. And so I felt more of a connection to him.
He reminded me of my uncle. My uncle kind of loved singing his music, and so it always brought my uncle to mine. Um, or if it was, um, a Rufus and Chaka Khan record, and you could see the group dynamic and the fun that they were having and, you know, uh, the playfulness between them and just, you know, I just loved how they captured the essence of the artist. That to me was like, you feel like you're getting something that nobody had to tell you, but you could feel it. The energy is just jumping off the page of the, you know, the liner notes or the, or the album cover. And I'm just like, wow, that's amazing. I miss that. I really miss that. That's the one thing that streaming doesn't necessarily give me in the same way. But I do miss that aspect of being able to smell the album cover and touch it, and the newness and peeling the, and um, um, just that smell of new vinyl.
Um, and then if it's a 45, um, clicking it onto the little disc before you put it into the, you know, onto the, um, turntable that just made me feel a connection. Um, and then just kind of sitting and watching the spinning of the record, it was very hypnotic. Um, and I would play things like God at least 50 times in a row and just really just get lost in it, you know? It felt like the record was breathing the sound of it, you know, that you, you take the needle and you hit it down and it's like, this record's coming to life, you know? Yeah. It's pretty magical.
Charles (12:47):
You really live in the moment in those situations, <laugh>.
Lisa Fischer (12:51):
Yeah. I feel like, because I have a really bad memory for endings that I hold on to the nows as much as I can, and just try to string those together like pearls, you know, and just feel each pearl and just really enjoy each one, and then move on to the next one and move on to the next, you know?
Charles (13:16):
So does music as a profession give you that opportunity? Is, is is the environment that it allows you to find part of the appeal,
Lisa Fischer (13:27):
Putting like the moments together in the now It does. In, in this way. So, you know, there's all the prep and all that stuff, and the things you gotta think about in advance. Whatcha gonna, my makeup, my hair, ah, putting on a hat today, ah, you know, whatever it is. Um, so there's all that pre-prep work, and that's cool. I'm all right with that. I guess you do wanna kind of prepare, but once I get there and sound check is over and all the problems are ironed out, and I've had a good meal and I've warmed up and I get on stage, it's like, play time, <laugh>. You know, it's, it's, um, because every audience, and when I say audience, it's an audience to me, is this, um, oh, it's kind of this beautiful sparkly jelly that you can hold in your hand, but it doesn't necessarily get sticky on your hands.
It just, it, it, it exists in itself and you get to hold it and shake it up and play with it. And it sparkles and it has dark spots and may have a few little grains of sand and whatever, but it's like this moving breathing thing that when you hold it, it kind of moves with you. And each audience is a different mold because there are different energies that come into the room. And there's different things that have happened during the last time you were on stage. And there's, um, the vibration of the sound in the room. How low is the ceiling? How high is the ceiling, the walls? What are they made of? Is there glass? Is is the sound gonna do a weird thing? And, and so all these souls are in the room and they're absorbing the quietness, or I shouldn't say the quietness.
They're absorbing space. And because they are, it shifts the sound in the room. And so, because of that, I'm really sensitive to that. Um, I sing differently every time. Like, or if I'm looking at someone and I can feel their energy, if I get a sense that there's profound sadness or there's profound joy, or if there's just kind of like a, a, an open slate to, to just kind of impart whatever energy that you have to them, it shifts according to what I'm seeing and feeling in the audience. And so the lyrics may come to life in a different way according to what I'm sensing and feeling. And so every night it, it's a journey and it's never, ever the same ever.
Charles (16:17):
So that description resonates really powerfully for me. 'cause I've seen you twice at Darryl's place in a very intimate setting where you were, I think, actually closer to me then than you're now. Right? <laugh>, we were like five feet apart mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so it was really immersive. I've also watched you on stage when Tina left the stage and left you to it. God bless Tina, God, you were better. You were better. And the audience changed when you were on the stage by yourself. I've watched the sequence on YouTube with you singing with Mick Jagger. You're singing, gimme Shelter over what, six or seven different tours when you are in those kinds of environments, which is about as different as you can get from Darryl's place, I would imagine.
Lisa Fischer (16:58):
Yeah.
Charles (16:58):
Having never performed it either. When you are, when you are on stage with Mick Jagger, when you are taking over for Tina Turner and you have that audience, what's that experience like? Oh my God,
Lisa Fischer (17:11):
For Tina, first of all, she's, it's hard for me to speak about her in, in past tense. She's such a fireball. She is such, I i, in my mind, I thought she was six feet tall before I met her. And then I meet her and she's like, five foot something, you know, like, not a whole lot of something, but, but her presence is, is like six feet. And she's really exact about what she wants in her own way of explaining it. Like I, I tend to be more technical, but she has a soulful way of explaining exactly what she wants. Um, and she needed time to change into the next outfit, you know? And, uh, and so she graciously gave me the opportunity to, uh, sing. Um, it's only rock and roll, which The Stones do. Yeah.
Charles (18:06):
Yeah.
Lisa Fischer (18:07):
And then she does her own amazing version. And so to be able to just kind of piggyback off of all this energy, now mind you, this has to be like in the middle of the show where she's already, like, people are worn out, they're lost, they've already lost their minds. They're screaming, they're yelling. And so to the, the fear of of putting a lull in the energy that she created was, was huge. And so, um, luckily the song was uptempo that helped. The way that she graciously allowed me into her space helped. She was very aware of that. And, um, I just felt really grateful and afraid at the same time. I just didn't wanna let her down and want to let the audience down. And so I just would be playful with her, you know, make faces at her and, you know, just to kind of get over my own nervousness. And she would, you know, just look at me, just like, go, oh God, this girl's crazy. You know? And then she'd just like, okay, you're, go for it. Go for it. You know? Um, and to be able to do that was just such a gift. And then with the support of the band, and Stacey Campbell, who's the other background singer, it was just so loving. Um, and the audience was great too.
Charles (19:19):
And did you know ahead of time she was gonna do that?
Lisa Fischer (19:21):
No, we didn't know until rehearsals when she decided, you know, 'cause she'll, you know, we'll go through the rehearsal process and it's not like she'll have like the, uh, a clipboard with notes and stuff. She just sees exactly what needs to be done in a very, with a natural eye. And, okay, well, I'm gonna need time. Okay, so I'm gonna do so and so, and so I said, would you, would you like to sing? I was like, yeah, it'd be great. And I was just like, I don't wanna sing <laugh>. Am I crazy? But it, you know, you have to try. And, and that's the other thing too, about just life for me, if I had tried to plan a moment where, gee, it would be great to do a duet with Tina Turner, it would've never happened for me. Something about my energy, if it works better, when I take a breath, I put out my hands, point it to the sky and just allow the universe to gift me whatever it wishes to.
For some reason. That, to me, brings me the most joy as opposed to a chess game for other people's chess game's. Really exciting, you know? But I don't really, I'm not great at controlling anything. I don't feel in control of anything. And so, for me, in my personality, it works better when I, when I just allow the universe to shower me with whatever is coming, whatever weather is coming. And I just, uh, I just feel grateful. And same with Mick too. I just, uh, oof. He's a tiger. He's a panther. I never know where he's gonna land. I never know what he's gonna do. He'll be looking around and he reacts to everything around him. Like the world is a jungle, and he's just going react to it, you know? And so he'll be prancing around and he's singing, he's like this strong acting. His muscles are pop and he's sweating.
He's like, you know, he is doing his thing. And then he may come over and look at me and he may smack me on the hip, or, you know, he'll just kind of look at me. And then I'm like giving him energy. Like, yeah, come on. You know? So it's like this beautiful exchange of energy. Um, and that was kind of new for me 'cause I never knew when that was gonna happen. So I always had to keep my eye on him. Both Bernard and I. Bernard Fowler is the other male singer, and we just always would keep our eye on him, because part of the joy of doing background and being supportive was, um, like cradling a precious child gift, you know, for make to be playful and to be free and to feel like I know everybody behind me has got me is the best gift to just see him be free and play, you know? So, yeah. I enjoy that.
Charles (22:13):
So this, this human connection is obviously such a important part of your life, not just your music. Yeah. I mean, it's very much who you are. So one question that strikes me is, does that mean you are conscious of putting, of who you put around you <laugh>, because to be that vulnerable, to be that—
Lisa Fischer (22:32):
Open.
Charles (22:33):
Right, comes with risk.
Lisa Fischer (22:35):
It does.
Charles (22:36):
Are you conscious of the kind of people you put around you for that reason that you need a buffer, you need some level of protection?
Lisa Fischer (22:42):
Yeah, I do. Because, mm, you know, there's certain situations where, I don't know if, I'm sure you probably have had this, where you walk in some, a new relationship, a new grouping, and your, your body and your energy is kind of surveying the energies of the people around you. And not necessarily judging it, just taking notes like, ooh, this, this person's energy right now. I don't know if they're going through something, but I'm not feeling this one right here. I'm gonna, I'm gonna lay back for whatever reasons. Maybe, you know, it's not the right time for us to connect. I've had situations where, you know, sometimes you meet someone straight on and, and, and it just doesn't jive at first. Um, but it doesn't mean that that's a bad thing. It's just a moment in time out of many moments that you can have, as opposed to going, judging it in the beginning and going, this is bad.
It's gonna be bad forever. And ever. I'm in, you know, I just sort of look at it and I go, okay, this is a moment. Maybe, you know, there's a lesson, uh, that I need to absorb, you know? 'cause I can be a little much, you know, I can be like, Hey, you know, or, or sometimes I'm kind of laid back, but most of the time, pretty, pretty, you know, up there and just inclusive and like, you know, let's everybody hug, you know, <laugh>. And it could be too much for some people. Some people don't like that kind of closeness right away. It's just sort of, um, it's rude, you know, for some people. So I have to really be aware of that. Um, but then after a while, I think people kind of realize your, um, your essence and intent. And I think, um, I think other people are aware of that.
And I feel very aware of that. And the minute I feel that, um, my peace is threatened, I start to go into a mode of, I guess, trauma, really. Um, I, I feel like, oh, I gotta protect myself, and that's all I'm thinking about. Oh, I'm drowning. I won't be able to breathe. I want be, you know, whatever issues that I'm having in my head, whatever fears, like, like, I'm not gonna be able to be myself and feel safe in this environment. And so I tend to kind of withdraw and figure out, is that really what's happening? Or is this some some trigger thing that you got going on? This is you, you know? 'cause I almost feel like my eyes are the, the screen of the TV and the world is the show. And so I have to kind of go, how is this show affecting me? The TV's just doing what it does. The show is doing what it does, but how am I making this work or not work for me?
Charles (25:40):
1991, you won a Grammy successful album. Really successful single. There was clearly a path that you were on at that point.
Lisa Fischer (25:50):
Yeah.
Charles (25:51):
That you could have chosen to taken, you could have had a different career than the one you've had. I thank you for having the career you've had because it gave me access to you in a way that I don't think would've been possible. Um, but you could have had a different career. Mm-hmm. Right? You had everything it takes to be a quote unquote star. Mm-hmm. I've read a comment you made about the role, the back backup singing plays for you, the, the kind of chemistry provides, and some of what you've already described here today. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Can you talk to me a little bit about why you made the choice you did?
Lisa Fischer (26:21):
Mm-hmm. When I first got my record deal, I was in my, I was 29, I think, when I got signed. And back in that time, that was considered old. Um, even though I was seasoned and I felt like, you know, my face wasn't falling down on my belly, I was doing okay, <laugh>, you know, um, I just felt like I wasn't 16. Um, it took me a while to do the record, and I was really grateful they gave me the time to kind of figure out myself. 'cause it was kind of like mostly doing background and being supportive. And I would do demos and, and projects for different people on solo records and things like that. Um, but I didn't know what I wanted to say. And so luckily there was this wonderful woman named Carol Chiles at Elektra who hooked me up with Narda, Michael Walden. And that's when I felt like somebody, again, me. I like working with people that really makes a difference. And I felt like we worked together, not that I was working for him. Um, we worked on, uh, uptempo songs, and then we kept in between working on uptempo songs. He worked on this ballad. Um, he kept going back to this.
I was like, what's that? He's like, I don't know. It's just, just something I'm working on. I was like, I wanna work on that <laugh>. I like that. You know? 'cause the record company really wanted something uptempo, but they did a survey and they're like, there are too many balls in the market right now. You need to have an up temp song. I was like, okay, here we go, <laugh>. So, um, and we did that. We did work on up Temple songs, but I kept gravitating to this ballad. And luckily for me, um, following my instincts about wanting to work on that paid off. 'cause I think that's the thing that saved me, um,
Charles (28:17):
Saved you from—
Lisa Fischer (28:20):
Obscurity. I think I'm, I could have been, uh, uptempo songs are great, but I really have a thing about ballads. There's something about the time, there's something about the space that you're given to connect. And even now, when I'm doing shows, I tend to like the storytelling pace of a ballot. I feel like people breathe different. I feel like their heart rates are different. I feel like mine is different. I feel like we have time to just sort of be in this water together. It's, it just feels different to me, and I really enjoy that. Now, mind you, I don't mind doing a rocking song. I'm good with that. But I tend to gravitate towards the ballads. Um, and I think after the Grammy, there was this, I was so grateful, uh, to have even been nominated. To me, that was huge. 'cause you're in this, I'm like a nobody.
And you are in this kind of category with all these greats, you know, and people that you look up to. Um, so it was really great to be in the category and to get a win. I was really grateful. But that's when I felt pressure. I felt, um, now they want to, they're like, wow, we got lucky. She, she did great with Narta. Let's do another thing with n. And so we, you know, we start to do that. Uh, the record company was, how, how do I say it? Electra was now part of Warner, Electra Atlantic, all the record companies are starting to get rid of artists and, uh, clean their rosters out. And, and, you know, the little guys are getting eaten up by the big guys. And so a lot was changing. And I think within all that change, I just felt this pressure that I didn't think I could survive emotionally.
I just felt, I felt like a, a product. And I guess I was, and I should accept that, but I just didn't know if I could survive that. I just, I felt like I was too sensitive. Um, yeah. Yeah. I could, I could, I could see how the pressure that could kind of make somebody go, I'm out. You know, I've had enough. And so before I got to that point, I was just like, okay. So that was, that was one thought. The other thought was the record company. We were at a weird point. I don't think they knew what to do with me, and I didn't know what to do with me. Um, and my manager had found another company that, that said they were interested. And so we wanted to do the right thing and, and get out of our contract with Electra, and then sign with the new company, new energy, new outlets, new people.
I don't know what happened. Soon as I got out of the record deal with Electra, when we were getting ready to sign with the new company, they changed their mind. So now I had no deal. Mm. And I was so heartbroken. I was just like, now, I, now my mind will go a million different ways. Now, is this a part of the, you know, the breakdown? Like, I'm too old now. I'm 30, you know, it's been two, it took me a year to do the record. It was 29 when I signed, and I'm 31. It's like, oh my God, am I too old and Ned getting rid of me? Is it that this is all a part of the big, you know, universe of all the companies, like getting rid of their, you know, older singers. They're, they're signing all these young singers and that's, you know, they do what they have to do.
Um, is that a part of the plan? Did the two companies get together and say, are they friends? Is this like, I don't know, <laugh>? I was like, I just had no idea. And so I was like, rather than going through this really sad, heartbreaking exercise, I'm gonna go back to what I know. I'm gonna go back to looking at the artists that I work for in their eyes, sensing, you know, who they are. They're sensing who I am. I know the roadmap of the, as far as how that's supposed to go, and every organization is slightly different, of course. But I, it was something I knew I was comfortable this other thing at the age I was at, and feeling like, oh my God, they think I'm old. I don't know what I'm doing. And it's, it was just too much for me. And I was just like, and I, and I made more money being a background singer. You know, I think, you know, there was, you know, small advances and things like that. And that was really beautiful and so appreciated. Um, but I never, as far as the record company was concerned, they said I never recouped my record. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. As far as what they spent. And so I never really made any money, you know? So I was like, why am I doing this <laugh>?
I love the process of the music. I'm all good with that. But it is a business relationship. You know, the record company is your bank, and your pal and your friend, and supposed to help you, you know, get through and make the record so that they can make money so that you can make money. And just, you know, all that drama. I just, I didn't get it. I didn't get it.
Charles (33:53):
So the thrust of that decision was really about self-care? Yeah. That you recognized what was good for you and what was not good for you.
Lisa Fischer (33:59):
Yeah.
Charles (33:59):
There are other elements attached to it, but that was the kind of the heart of it. So as you built your career from there, what did, what, what did, what did you learn and what did you continue to learn about what you needed from an environmental standpoint? What were the things you wanted around you, or what did you wanna be part of that would allow you to express this extraordinary talent that you have?
Lisa Fischer (34:19):
I just needed to feel safe. I needed to feel useful. Um, I needed to feel joy and release. I needed to be able to like, working for other people. I felt that. I felt like I felt appreciated and loved and cared for. I just loved everybody. I loved the family members that came out on the road. I just loved the whole feeling. It felt like this universe that it was real, but it was also not real. If it makes sense. Yeah. Because, you know, each person has their own family and their own lives. And to be able to just have a small insight of sharing space and time with each of those individuals, it's not a forever thing. It's a moment in time and you cherish it and you, you know, hopefully there'll be a next time. And if not, this time was amazing. You know?
So there was a lot of that kind of feeling. I was comfortable with that. And then I would get home and I'd go, uh, now I gotta figure out what am I gonna do now? Because, you know, you've been away. And folks are like, yeah, I thought you was on the road. Now you calling me. You wanna get some bragging. It. It's just, just the whole, um, shift of road work versus home work was always interest. Interesting. You know, it would be kind of like, some folks would call you because, oh, okay, well they work with the stones and they work with this, and they work with that one. So they may bring some insight to my project that, you know, someone else may not have. So that was a good thing. Um, but it was hard to, to kind of know when people were doing projects.
And then again, the record companies were changing and switching. So a lot of the artists that could afford to pay you union wage or a flat rate, um, started to really get smaller. And then came Gil Friesen who, um, asked me to be part of, um, this film 20 Feet from Stardom, which we didn't know it was gonna be called the, at the time. He came to a sting show, um, and, uh, called, um, his manager called me and said, oh, you know, he wants to talk to you about, you know, a film. I was like, cool. So he talked about it, and he was so lovely. I met his wife and children. I was just like, oh, I just love this man. He was so lovely. Sweet, sweet energy, very similar to you, you know, very peaceful and just gentlemanly and just full of life and just a joy to be around.
You know? He just wanted to create something lovely. Um, and I resonated with that. And so, just being a part of that film shifted my life. Because at that point, once the film came out, I was getting a different kind of attention that I hadn't gotten before in conjunction with all the other wonderful singers that were part of the film. Um, and so it gave me an opportunity. People are asking me, do, do you do shows on your own? I was like, uh, I can <laugh>, you know? So I ended up calling a, a dear friend, uh, Linda Goldstein, who manages, uh, Bobby McFaren, worked on his record and begged her to help me. 'cause I, I needed help. I needed to figure out the terrain, and I didn't know what I was doing. And she definitely had a handle on it all. And so she guided me through, and she put me together with wonderful musicians, different opportunities, a focus ideas.
Um, and at that point, I had a decision to make, because I'm juggling Stones Tour, nine Inch Nails tour my own shows. And it got to the point where, okay, so there's a, there's a, hmm, there's a safety with working with other groups, but it's a, it's, it's, it's also time bomb because the tour only lasts a specific time, and you are never guaranteed whether or not you will work for that person again. 'cause you don't know where their path is gonna take them and what their needs are gonna be. So the agents that booked me on my own solo tours without a record, just on the strength of my history and the film, and, you know, all that stuff, they were like, you know, we're giving you this opportunity and then the stones go and change their dates, and now we have to cancel dates that we've allotted for you.
And that, you know, that happened like twice, you know, where they had to kind of cut out work for me. And then I, I realized, I was like, they're probably thinking I'm not serious about my own career. They're going to lose interest. I need to make a decision. And so that was probably one of the most heartbreaking decisions is, was to say, I have to stop touring with other groups and just, um, really focus on myself for change at, what was I 50 something? I can't even remember how old I was. Yeah, I was 50 something. I was 66 now. It was 10 years ago. Yeah. I was like 55, you know.
Charles (40:01):
Did you tell Nick yourself?
Lisa Fischer (40:02):
No, what happened was usually the promoter, uh, will usually reach out and work out the deals. There's too many people for make to call, and it's a lot, you know, and plus, it's, it's hard because I think now that I'm in this role, I can look back and go, I understand why he doesn't do it, because he's trying to keep the energy great on stage. It's about the music for him. It's not about, though he's a businessman as far as taking care of business. It's better to really have someone else designated to do that so that the energy of the business doesn't get muddled with the energy of the spirituality of the music. I think, I think they're two separate departments.
Charles (40:47):
Yeah.
Lisa Fischer (40:47):
And it's really, some people are great at navigating both. But I see why he would not, you know, he may say, I'd love for you to go on tour, you know, but he will not be the guy be like, you know, well, here are the parameters of the thing, and I'm gonna send you the contract. He would not be that guy. You know? He, he'd be aware of it. He's a, he's a great business person. Um, and, and so is Keith. Um, but, uh, yeah, I see why they don't, because they, 'cause they're loving, you know, and, and you don't see, that's the thing. You don't wanna feel like you're emotionally manipulating anyone. You know, like, gee, I broke my leg, so, you know, I think I'm gonna need a raise and a, you know, a new place to live and, you know, whatever madness, you know, uh, that can happen.
But, um, so I had to make a decision. And the promoter at the time called me on the phone. And he, and some things that happened prior to that, they kind of made me go, you need to make a move. The stones were whittling down their people. They were cutting down their roster people and, um, as an organization. And so we were getting calls, people getting fired, you know, and we didn't know who was gonna be fired or not. I get a call and, and he says, yeah, you know, uh, they won't be using you for this, uh, upcoming tour, uh, but, you know, would love for you to come and work at, you know, MetLife for, you know, and come and sing, gimme shelter and blah, blah, blah. I was like, oh, that's sweet. Okay. I hang up the phone and I go, okay, I've just been fired.
Okay, cool. I was like, I knew that this is a possibility. And I had a great run. And I just said, okay, you know, I'm going about my business. I think a week or two past, I get another call from the same person. He says, makes that rehearsal. He is wondering where you're at. I'm like, huh, <laugh>. Exactly. The look on your face was exactly the look I had over the phone. I'm looking at the phone, like, what <laugh>? I was like, didn't you, didn't you fire me a couple weeks ago? He said, no, no, no, no, no. That was a misunderstanding or whatever it was. So, I don't know, you know, it's such a huge organization. And then there was just shift of, um, promoters and people and all kinds of stuff. So who knows, maybe they were like, yeah, get rid of all of them. No. Well, maybe we'll keep this one. I, I don't know what list. Who made the calls, what happened? Long story short, I end up going back on tour and, but I never forgot the scar that it left. Mm-hmm <affirmative>.
I thought to myself, do you really wanna feel that again, <laugh>, do you really wanna be in the position where you are going through menopause and you are already kind of tripping out? You know, you're sweating like a pig on stage, and you're trying to be this young dude drop, and you're not that chick anymore. You know, you're gaining weight. You're like, life is just like, yo, life is yoing. And I was like, mm, I need, I, this is beautiful, but I'm, I'm also afraid that I'm not gonna have a job. And then what? So that stuck with me. And, and so when I got the opportunity because of the film, I was like, this is a, the universe is gifting you girl. Do not, do not, don't let your fear of possible failure on your own scare. You don't let your, um, fear of feeling like you're leaving them.
They'll be fine without you, girl. They've been fine before you. They'll be fine after you to be refreshing. For Mick to have someone younger and beautiful, you know, on tour, they'll be fine, you know? But I, I was crying over the phone with the, with the promoter. I was like, you know, I'm gonna have to not do the next tour. I am so sorry. I was like, I, I can't disappoint the promoters and I have no control over y'all's schedule. And you know, I know, I know. You know, they're a huge machine. They don't have to do anything for me. I was like, it's prob it's time. It's time. And I didn't know if I should have talked to Mick about it first, but because he wasn't talking, he was having them speak for, you know, the organization. I felt that's the way he wanted it to be, because there's too many people's lives and too many lives for him to have to dissect through. He is got his own life and a big beautiful family. Why do you know he doesn't have to dissect through all that? That's what they're there for. So, um—
Charles (45:38):
Have you talked to him since?
Lisa Fischer (45:39):
Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. At, you know, the first year I probably had not talked to him for <laugh> for a little bit because, you know, I'd seen them at, uh, seen them at some event at New York. And it's always crazy. And I can always say, oh, I didn't get a chance to speak to him because he was upset with me. But I, I don't, looking back, I think that's just my own fears.
It's not about me. I think there is a whole world that's moving in their own universes, and I can, you know, look at those things and interpret it as whatever my fears and are. But looking back is always a beautiful gift. And I always feel like I'm learning so much about myself when I do look back and I go, it wasn't about you. You know? It's like, they're all good now. Everybody's cool, you know, nobody's upset. You know, they get Christmas cards and hellos and love and messages and, and, and I, I pray to God they know how much I love them. You know? I think they do. Um, yeah. And a lot of history and things that make me smile.
Charles (47:01):
Yeah. There's a lot.
Lisa Fischer (47:02):
Yeah.
Charles (47:03):
As a backup singer of such renowned and such quality, you work with an extraordinary list of people. I mean, I was reading the list, um, over the last couple of days as I was getting ready for this. It's just remarkable when you are, let's talk about Luther. Oh, when you, when, when you are providing that to him, what, what did you learn about the environment you needed to create, to have, to allow him to be successful?
Lisa Fischer (47:35):
Luther was a different kind of jewel. He, to me, he's like this beautiful diamond. He kind of always knew what he wanted. And I think, you know, him being a teacher, uh, in his, in, um, you know, when he was younger—
Charles (48:01):
He was on Sesame Street, wasn't he?
Lisa Fischer (48:03):
Yes, he was. I think he was, yes. And, um, he just seemed to always have a plan. He knew what he wanted. He knew what he wanted. And so when I met him, I was auditioning, um, because another young lady named Tawatha Aji, who was with a group called Mtume, and they had a song called Juicy Fruit. You know, very well, what You are such a great song, <laugh>. Um, and so it, it was getting to be huge and popular. It was like a big hit. They still play it now. Anyway, she had to make a decision. 'cause she was like, you know, one of the Sopranos. And so she went with him to me, and then a slot opened up with Luther, and he had four background singers. He had three females, 1, 2, 3, and one male. Um, and so he was trying to fit in the right person for the puzzle piece, you know, for the, for the, for the puzzle.
And, and so for me, I felt like it was my training ground. I felt like there was so much I didn't know. And he was so giving and allowed me to bump my head, but he also knew that I was super green. Um, and I didn't know how things worked. Um, it was my first big tour. I was on the road, uh, prior to that with, um, Didi Kenny Brew, who was one of the original crystals. Uh, Darlene Love came out of that. Um, she sang the lead on the records. Um, and then I went to the Marvelettes, which was not a real, no original members, but the manager owned the name. So we went out as a Marvelettes. We did the music as a Marvelettes, and there were like four different groups of the Marvelettes, but that's another story for another day. Um, and so I had a little bit of, um, live performance energy, so I kind of understood the road.
I understood a little bit of choreography. Um, I definitely had the, the ear together as far as what needed to be done. I was great with that. And so, by the time I got to Luther, it was another level of nuance. It was this level of, you know, if anybody that knows Luther's voice and the way he would, you would write a word on a piece of paper. Like we'd be in the studio. He would write down the lyrics and it would just look like he was writing a letter to someone. But then when the words would be in his mouth, it took on another life. It took on another weight where he would, how he would start the word, what came before the word, how he would end the word, where the vibrato would hit, where he would have his straight tones, where the air would hit, how he connected the words and the story.
And it just looped it all together and just wore your heart down. It just a superstar to me is a, an amazing example of that. I, I get chills. Even, even, um, thinking about his, him being in the studio and, and the relationship between him and the microphone, and the microphone being the hearts of everyone that hears him. It just, I feel like it gives people an opportunity to be in his chest when his, he beats and to feel what he's feeling. And I, I, I hadn't quite experienced that kind of feeling before. So to watch him sing House is not a home and superstar, and just anything, never too much. Anything that he sang and how he would, uh, how he would translate the studio and the relationship between this microphone and how he could take that small space and then amplify it through a stadium or an arena and still make people feel like they're an inch away from his heart was mind blowing for me.
And he was so, um, hard on himself. Like, if we had four days of back to back shows in the earlier days, it would be that usually, like around the third night, fourth night would be the most difficult to get through, because now you've traveled, you didn't really get much sleep, your voice needs to rest. But we've got these four shows and it's a long day. So, um, to watch him maneuver, what voice he had left to work with was an art in itself. So that kind of prepared me for my own gigs, but he was just, I don't, I don't think he realized what a master he was in so many different things. He was a master in, uh, show production. He knew exactly the, the, the look of the gowns, the look of the pants suits, what, what materials it needed to be made from, uh, how it needed to be made.
He would, you know, talk to the designer and, and they would discuss, you know, this needs to last. These are, you know, in his mind, these are museum pieces. These are not just something you're going to use and then throw away. And, and, and it's amazing because I think about a year or two ago, these pieces of, um, all of all of the outfits and stuff have been in the museums. And so he, he had this, he knew he had this insights as he could. He could, I don't know, I feel like he created his own, uh, reality as best he could with what he had. I think, um, I wish he had been here longer. 'cause I would be so curious to see what he would do now.
Charles (54:19):
Hmm.
Lisa Fischer (54:19):
You know, how he would affect the world now.
Charles (54:21):
Mm-hmm.
Lisa Fischer (54:22):
And especially now when we meet, we need so much healing. I would be interested to see what he would write, what his heart would be saying to tell people, to share with people. I just, I'm just so sad that he's not
Charles (54:36):
Here. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Such a loss.
Lisa Fischer (54:37):
Yeah.
Charles (54:39):
That description you just gave us of the connection he had between his, his soul essentially, and the microphone and the hearts of the audience was what I experienced. Listening to you, are you conscious that you have that capacity as well?
Lisa Fischer (54:54):
I, I, I'm not sure. I, I think so, but I never assume. So it's, uh, I can only hope that I'm connecting. I can only hope that I'm being heard in the way that my heart needs to be heard so that people can feel the way they need to feel. That to me is the most important thing. Like, to me, I just wanna be in service. I wanna be, if I wasn't a singer, I think I'd be a nurse. I wanna be a healing energy. You know, that to me is just so necessary and so important. And I think each soul has the capacity to heal in their own magical ways. Um, if it's a smile, if it's a look, if it's a word, if it's silence, if it's a hug, whatever it is, um, if it's information that's shared that sparks the next, I don't know, cure for cancer, whatever it is, I think we're meant to be gifts to each other.
Really do. Um, and I think it's kind of cool to think that if each soul would, could believe that they are gifts to everyone outside of themselves, as opposed to just being self-focused and not expecting the world to give you anything. I think we would have fuller experiences as human beings. I think, you know, it's good to take care of yourself. Yeah. But to feel the love and care and, um, sharing from so many different people, it's like the love that I, the energy of love that I get from an audience is so healing for me. And I feel it's, it's like this circle that we just keep jumping on the top of this balloon and it keeps running around the room and everybody gets the chance to ride on it. It's just so, I don't know. It's what life is about for me.
Charles (57:24):
Yeah. I wanna thank you so much for agreeing to come on the show today and come here and just share so openly and so such depth of humanity. You know, Chris and I have talked a lot about the impact that watching you perform his hat on us. And I think we both have just felt this extraordinary visceral connection. And you are a gift. And your capacity to move people and open their hearts and encourage them to feel and to let them cry and have all of that be for good is just so special and so rare. And as you said, we need so much more of this these days. And I'm just glad that we can have this conversation. And I hope you'll come back on and we can continue this. I would love to just keep this
Lisa Fischer (58:06):
Going. I would love that. Thank you. I would love that. I would love that. And you've been so gentle and kind. Thank you.
Charles (58:14):
Right. It's absolutely my pleasure, my honor. Thank you, Lisa.
Lisa Fischer (58:17):
Thank you.
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