James Townsend of Assembly
Do your weaknesses shape you or stop you?
"FEARLESS CREATIVE LEADERSHIP" PODCAST - TRANSCRIPT
Episode 233: James Townsend
Here’s a question. Do your weaknesses shape you or stop you?
I’m Charles Day. I work with creative and innovative companies. I’m asked to coach and advise their leaders and their leadership teams. To help them succeed where leadership has its greatest impact. The intersection of strategy and humanity.
This week’s guest is James Townsend. He’s the Global CEO of Stagwell Brand X Performance Network and the Global CEO at Assembly.
We recorded this conversation in the lobby of the Majestic Hotel during the Cannes Lions Festival. In a week known for its energy, James’s own energy stands out.
So does his self awareness.
“I'm probably more of a macro thinker than a micro thinker, I'm poor on detail, you know. I'm dyslexic, I can't read a page. I can't read past a page. So, I'm an avid learner but a terrible reader. I'm a terrible academic. So I've tried to find ways to offset that, you know, by constantly looking up bite-size information or trying to be a magpie. I'm a big proponent of being a magpie.”
The art of leadership is becoming more nuanced every day. There is no one-size-fits-all approach any more. What is true for one person is anathema to another.
Knowing yourself, your strengths and your weaknesses, has never been more critical to your success and to your happiness.
But it is also the issue that creates the biggest challenge for leaders today.
Some leaders are terrified of their weaknesses and do everything they can to protect themselves from them. They focus on smaller vulnerabilities as a way to convince themselves that they’re self aware, while shoving the real issues into the darkest corners.
Others create long lists of perceived weaknesses and much shorter lists of their strengths. Man or woman, they feel like imposters and the lists they create convince them that they are.
It is rare, I find, for someone to have the kind of clarity about themselves that James describes. Most of the time, it takes working with a coach or a confidant for people to see themselves accurately and compassionately. Then they gain access to their full capacity for unleashing the potential of others.
A client with rare talent once said to me, “I’m scared I might be wrong.”
“You’re going to be wrong,” I replied. “But you’re going to be wrong much less often than anyone else.”
Here’s James Townsend.
Charles (02:48):
James, welcome to Fearless. Thank you so much for joining me today.
James Townsend (02:50):
Thank you, Charles. It's a pleasure. It's great to see you again.
Charles (02:52):
You too. When did creativity first show up in your life? When are you first conscious of creativity being a thing in your life?
James Townsend (02:57):
Well, my mother is an artist, and continues to be an artist. A painter mainly, but also with clay and that kind of thing. So I grew up with someone producing something from nothing, you know, throughout my childhood.
My wife is an artist and an actress, and studied at St. Martins, and continues to produce work prolifically. So I spent many of my 20s carrying large format nudes around London to—
Charles (03:18):
(laughs)
James Townsend (03:19):
—pop up shops that we would, we would hire for a week for their galleries, and her shows. So, again, the women in my life have been very creative. So, that certainly must've had an impact I suspect.
I also played a lot of sport. I played a lot of football and a schoolboy at Chelsea, and I—
Charles (03:35):
You were a schoolboy at Chelsea Football Club?
James Townsend (03:36):
I was for a few years, yeah.
Charles (03:37):
Oh my God, well, we should spend an hour talking about just that (laughs).
James Townsend (03:39):
Yeah, well, that's what got me into university, it certainly wasn't my results. And I played in the middle of midfield, and had a reputation for tackling very little but could—
Charles (03:48):
(laughs)
James Townsend (03:49):
—you know, could maybe see a pass. So I enjoyed play making, I enjoyed the dynamics of working within a team, and that, for me, was a creative exercise. So maybe art from the people I hold dear, and that were, I was surrounded by, and also sport, you know, I think, are two creative enterprises, you know. So, I think probably those two would be the influences from my young life, through to my early adult life, and to now.
Charles (04:09):
What role did your parents play?
James Townsend (04:11):
In creativity?
Charles (04:12):
Yeah. And just in how you grew up.
James Townsend (04:14):
Well, I think, you know, seeing my mum be someone who would actively invest her time in producing something, and trying to refine a skill, in finding pleasure in either taking one thing and another thing and joining it up, and making it into something new, or just taking a canvas and painting, I feel that probably has a, sort of, implicit impact on you in terms of how one might spend their time, and how one might find enjoyment in activities and so on.
My dad is a bit more literal, you know, mad sportsman, competitive man, competitive business man, and he'd stick me in the car on a Saturday and a Sunday, and I'd go and watch him play. You know, I'd be on the sidelines, trying to juggle, and ended up being able to juggle quite well, and then, played myself, and joined sides.
So, pretty literal in some respects, in terms of the influences of the people around me. They were active influences, and they were, in my opinion creative influences.
Charles (05:05):
So, I've been a Chelsea supporter since 1969.
James Townsend (05:08):
Oh dear. My goodness.
Charles (05:10):
So, I'm fully cognizant of the level of player you have to be to get to the level you were is—
James Townsend (05:15):
Sure.
Charles (05:16):
—serious, right? I mean, it's a serious level of talent compared to the average person.
James Townsend (05:20):
Well it's, I was lucky, and I think probably talent, talent's the right word. I was, sort of, naturally, I had a natural ability, I think. I think, looking back on it, it's a pretty brutal environment, you know, teenager in a, kind of, football club, an elite football club, and I think, possibly first lessons of leadership or maturity or lack thereof, I think was something I kind of, reflect on sometimes these days.
I think I was incredibly committed, and I think internal in my ambition, you know. It was very much about me playing well, and me doing well, and me expressing myself. And I think, over time, and through my football career, you kind of, learn, pretty quickly, that actually it's a team game, and how you draw upon your own skills, how do you use your teammates to their, to the best of their ability, how do you work to their strengths.
I was lucky enough to be captain of a number of those sides that I re- represented, and I probably started in what was probably now a very classic, autocratic, dictatorial, directorial, thrusting, you know, from the front leadership style, and I'm not sure that was as effective as it could've been actually.
And I think, when you look now, I think modern leadership is perhaps more about enablement and support and how do you bring the best out of others. And I think, possibly, willing oneself and others to success is still very possible and still an ingredient. But I think, now more than ever, it's about that enablement and about, perhaps, leading from the middle, rather than leading from the front. So you can see everything, so you can feel what's going on, see how people are feeling, and performing, and not becoming too distant from your colleagues, and your teammates actually.
So, I felt I learned some, some important lessons from a sporting perspective.
Charles (07:00):
I want to come back to that, I think it's a fascinating insight, but I'm really curious, why did you not go pro? Were you not good enough? Or did you not have the drive?
James Townsend (07:08):
I wasn't mentally good enough at the time. I don't think I was mature enough. I think, I was probably too selfish, is a, kind of, a harsh word, but too focused on my own performance. I also didn't probably think I had the opportunity I perhaps had. I was playing six days a week, and I was doing well, and people said nice things about me, but I'm not sure I took it seriously enough to consider it to be something that... I didn't, I didn't see that early enough to really commit. And I think you do really need to commit to something like that.
I was enjoying my football, I was committed to my football. I took it very seriously, but I probably, in the back of my mind, had an assumption I wouldn't be a footballer. And I think that's probably a weakness if that was your goal. So, I was, I have hugely fond memories of it. Played with some wonderful players, played in some wonderful places.
But I think, probably the mentality. You know, having a mentality that wasn't just about personal performance. Having a mentality that was more broadly refined than that. I was a little unsophisticated, a little rough around the edges. As, as many of us are at 14 or 15 (laughs).
Charles (08:07):
You say you were captain of a lot of those teams—
James Townsend (08:09):
Yeah.
Charles (08:09):
—and did you always want to lead? Was leadership something that you aspired to early on?
James Townsend (08:12):
Yeah, I did. I always felt like I'd rather take the responsibility than not. The opportunity I'm in now, there's was a crossroads, and I was quick to say, "I'll take that." I'd rather take the responsibility of that, rather than defer it, and it wasn't even a consideration to me.
So, assumption is, perhaps sounds a little arrogant, but I always, always wanted to be in that position of, leadership. I'd rather... to a degree, there's a confidence there. There's a desire to be... I'll back myself, perhaps.
When you're young, that probably comes across as a slightly unrefined presentation of yourself sometimes. But, I've tried to mature, I've tried to make sure that's in compliment to being empathetic, to being clear about what you're not good at, to being really clear about what you can learn from others.
But, yeah, without question, it was always something that if anyone gave me a choice, I'd take that role, without question.
Charles (09:04):
Are you competitive to this day?
James Townsend (09:06):
I am. I was competitive in a very literal way, but I've tried to learn to be... my personal view is, it's better to be driven than competitive these days. And I make a very clear distinction to that myself. So, competition is about beating other people, in some respects. Whereas, if you're driven, it might be to achieve something fantastic with your colleagues or with your partner or with your teams or with your family, or, or your friends, or whatever situation you're in, driving to do something well, and to do it in the right way, I think is an attempt to be slightly more enlightened than maybe, I want to beat the person in front of me.
That's not success. Success is doing something and improving and progressing. I think it's a more positive way of thinking about things. So, I would say, now, I'm trying to be more... I remain driven and ambitious, and I like winning. And that's important, but perhaps winning for your own progress, and your team's progress, rather than to defeat somebody else.
Charles (10:01):
Are you competitive with yourself? Are you tough on yourself?
James Townsend (10:04):
Mm, no. No, I'm not. I'm very ambitious, something that's innate. I think it's in me, and I hope that's okay. On the right day, and again, the right balance, I think that's a good thing. I think that takes you forward. I don't give myself a hard time.
I think I've been very lucky, and I think I've been lucky enough to be given opportunities and to be doing fairly well at this moment, and, and I, and I've become more comfortable with the with the library of things that I'm not actually strong at.
And I think that's actually a really healthy thing, because I think that brings you to others, and the things you can really learn from others, and find value in the things that you're not, you know, and embrace that, and I think that's a real skill, and I think it allows you to enjoy being part of a team. Something that allows you to really thrive within a team, as part of a team, as opposed to being a top down leader, or a leader that's distant or directorial. You know, what are you not good at? And how can you learn through others? And with others?
Charles (10:55):
When you look at a team... I mean, you've had such a distinctive viewpoint from within teams, I mean, literally centrally involved in creation of, the leadership of, the driving of through your football career. But, so, when you look at teams now, from a business standpoint, do you have a, kind of, a shape that they have to take? How do you evaluate teams? How do you look to form and create teams?
James Townsend (11:14):
That's a great question. I think, to me, I mean, there's been a long conversation, rightly, in recent times around diversity, and I think, you know, cognitive diversity is an important part of this, I think emotional diversity is a part of this, you know, EQ. I think probably I would err on the side of personality or attitude over aptitude or application. You know, I'd probably lean towards people with a similar set of character traits, you know, do we have the same value system here? Do we have the same set of beliefs? They don't have to be the same, but it's, sort of, there needs to be enough crossover there that we going to understand where each other are coming from, from a personal point of view, from a behavioral point of view.
Winning's really important, but winning well is really important to me. So, what we do is clearly a key part of whatever goal that might be, but, but how we apply ourselves, how we behave, is the start position for me.
And then, I think, over time, then you have to look at, well, more practically, at the technical requirements of the task, and what do you have, and what is missing? But, fundamentally to me, the character of an individual, the character of a group, and having a shared enough pallet of values, I think is the thing that really gives you a foundation to then build. and I also think that opportunism is quite an interesting part of that.
I'm lucky enough to work in a very dynamic business, and I couldn't have predicted the people I would've worked with. The services and products we would've designed, and that comes from meeting people you didn't know existed, and who think in a completely different way to you.
So, if you're, if you're generous enough, and curious enough as a collective, there's a fantastic engagement and transaction with each other. You know, you can give a load and you can get a load, and if there is a collective understanding of goals, and a collective understanding of what's important, how do things get done around here? How do we behave? Then I think you got a real chance to do something special.
Charles (13:02):
So, with all of that, and given the fact you've given me part of an answer to this question already, but I'm curious to kind of, frame it up, how do you define success?
James Townsend (13:11):
I mean, if I gave you tag line, I'd probably say that, that winning well is maybe a... you know, I'm fundamentally an optimist, in the truest sense of the word, but I'm trying to be a credible optimist, which is, you know, seeing the world as it is, being honest about that, being honest about the, how difficult that might be, with myself and with my team, but fundamentally also believing that you can get there.
So, credible optimism is a big part of life for me. So, behaving and living that, is a form of success. The cosmetic results of our business and, to a degree, our personal lives, are important. But I think that point about winning well, winning with style, it's a bit, it's a bit cheesy but the nature which you go about your business... winning is fairly accessible if you're lucky enough to be in a good position, and I'm very lucky enough to be in a good position.
I've had a privileged upbringing, I've been given lots of opportunities in my life, and I think ti's important therefore to, first of all, capitalize on those, in the most positive sense, you know, growth in all forms, if you like. But how you go about your business now has never been more important, I think. And I think the world's watching as well.
I'm sitting in a fantastic organization, Stagwell, and I look after one of the networks there, and it's 6,000 employees in my group, and that's 6,000 mortgages and 6,000 families. And we have to make conscious choices, constantly, and some of those are compromised, and some of those are easy, and some of those are celebrating, and some of those are really difficult.
But I think, if you can do that with some humanity and some integrity, that is absolutely a necessary part of what a rounded, successful career/life is today.
Charles (14:41):
What role does fear play for you in all of that?
James Townsend (14:44):
I do well, I do well with fear actually. I am not fearless, but I do well with it. I have a pretty good tank of confidence now, and I have a pretty good, I think, radar of what, again, as I said earlier, what I'm not good at, what I can't do, what are my blind spots, I hope. And so, if I can be confident that I've got a good relationship with the people around me, those people have that shared collection of values, of behaviors, maybe mindset as well, comes into that, then I feel confident we can achieve.
So while there's various threats every day, whether that be business or compromises one has to make, I don't, I wouldn't characterize it as fear. I want to be aware, un-cautious and conscious of it. if you want to call it failure or, or not achieving, what we're striving to do, but I wouldn't call it fear.
And, as I said, that comes back to being a, hopefully, credible optimist. Because you wouldn't be a very good credible optimist if you spent your life being afraid. So I fundamentally believe it can be done. But there's a strong asterisk there which says, you have to see the world with your feet on the ground. You know, hubris is an enemy to me, and a very, very dangerous one. And as we sit here in the south of France, you know, we need to be very conscious of that I think.
Charles (15:59):
You said that you're conscious of your vulnerabilities, your weaknesses, how would you describe those?
James Townsend (16:06):
I'm probably more of a macro thinker than a micro thinker, I'm poor on detail, you know. I'm dyslexic, I can't read a page. I can't read past a page. We were just talking about Scott Galloway's book, you know, that simple book of a 100 Graphs is a great way for me to learn. So, I'm an avid learner but a terrible reader. I'm a terrible academic. So I've tried to find ways to offset that, you know, by constantly looking up bite-size information or trying to be a magpie. I'm a big proponent of being a magpie.
Charles (16:34):
Mm.
James Townsend (16:35):
Which is that, not everyone is perfect, but what can I learn from an individual, and the aspects of them that I find to be inspiring or an opportunity to learn from. And I think that's a creative act. Piecing things together to make something new, or to form a new point of view, or a position, or, or a perspective. I think something that's I actually enjoy. I enjoy that intellectual exercise if you like.
But I think, I think... so, that would be some of the areas. I'm not a detail person, I'm fairly, um, I'm fairly quick, and that's not always a good thing, you know. I'd say those are some of the areas, I think, that I… probably, I'm probably light on.
Charles (17:15):
How old were you when you discovered you were dyslexic?
James Townsend (17:17):
Oh, 10. You know, can't spell. I've been in working experiential marketing in some form or another, for 20 years, and I still can't spell experiential. But I don't see that as a wea—you know, there's all sorts of.… And I have some slightly controversial view.… I don't consider that to be anything that should get in the way of my progress in life at all.
But, yeah. And so it also makes you a very visual person. So all my presentations when I was writing presentations and pitching as a young guy, were, you know, embarrassing that, to now, say it now, but were all Google images and short words. And so, I had these very visual presentations that were very reductive, and so, maybe the story telling of that, aspect of that was, was better than all these heavy wordy slides you sometimes see. And so, I find strength in that. I find that to be an absolute advantage to be honest with you.
Charles (18:07):
Do you then, do you tell people that? Like, do you help people understand this is how I communicate best?
James Townsend (18:12):
No. It's, sort of, there, writ large. I'm very verbal communica— like, I don't write as many presentations now. I made a point of it, because you can find in my role that you, you're constantly having to communicate. And, of course, every now and again, and on a fairly regular basis, you have to, kind of, make something clear, and that might need charts, and that might need a written word, but I'm increasingly trying to do that in a verbal way.
But I'd like to think I'm articulate. I'd like to think I'm clear in terms of how I try and communicate an idea or a point of view or an argument.
And so, I don't tell people, but I (laughs), if you saw a deck, you'd probably be in a, probably be able to spot it a mile off, I think.
Charles (18:46):
So, I had two conversations recently about this actually with leaders decide to articulate for their team, this is the best way for me to engage with you and vice versa.
James Townsend (18:55):
Yeah. Yeah.
Charles (18:56):
Do you do that?
James Townsend (18:57):
I don't do that in terms of me describing how I communicate, but what I would do is be very deliberate about how I organize how we interact with each other. So I would talk to someone about, "How do you want to do this? Do you want to meet every two days for 10 minutes, or do you want to meet every two weeks for an hour?" And I think that's actually, you know, how one manages one's time, how, how you engage with people physically, or virtually, you get, post COVID.
I think that side of organizing the way you're interacting with people is really important, because, if they can come with their shoulders down, and in a comfortable position, because they want to have an intimate conversation, one-to-one in an office, or they want to go and do it in a group session because they're an extrovert — being sensitive to that, I think is, it gives you more chance to have a meaningful conversation, and therefore, be able to support or help or receive feedback or.…
So, I think I'm conscious about the environment and the nature in which of how you meet. But I think you can find your way quite quickly with people if you listen, you know.
Charles (19:54):
Yeah.
James Townsend (19:55):
Yeah.
Charles (19:55):
Your business, and it obviously it depends on creativity, is at the core—
James Townsend (19:58):
Of course.
Charles (19:58):
—of what you do, the foundation of that, in an organizational structure is, you have to engender trust.
James Townsend (20:03):
Yes.
Charles (20:04):
How do you go about doing that?
James Townsend (20:06):
I mean, it's a great question. I'm thoughtful of where I am and where I'm not, you know. And our business is growing quite significantly, and I think, sort of, absence, there's a role for.… Absence is a form of leadership in some respects. Like, where are you not? So, I think it's important you have a clear point of view in the world.
So, Assembly, one of our businesses, a business that I run, our global media agency, the positioning of that business is to find the change that fuels growth. So, find change grow is by definition a constantly dynamic concept.
So, everything can be better. Everything can always improve, and everything is about growth. For our people, for our clients, for our products and services and fundamentally for their businesses. So, a clear narrative around, what is it we do here? And not, we buy media, but your job is to find something in the status quo, improve it, and then demonstrate how that has made the world a better place, made the clients' organization better.
So, I think, having a clear North Star is one. I think having a structure that is not too tight and not too loose. And I mean, that's an endless task, but, you know, and ability for our people to navigate. So, like, I know how to move around the organization, I think is another.
And then I do think, and you said it, it's trust. It's get out of the way. And I think, that might mean that, if the senior management isn't close enough, maybe there's a quality issue. Maybe you lose some expertise, maybe you lose some experience. But that space in front of our people then, if you're an ambitious person, if you're a dynamic person, you're going to take the space in front of you, and we talk about that a lot. Take the space in front of you.
You know, we've brought 15, 16 companies together, and that is a difficult uncomfortable process. And if you're talking about any of you and your proposition change is the middle word, it's important you stare at that, and understand the business you're joining. So, I think being really clear, credible, about what we do here, and this is not a status quo environment. This is an uncomfortable environment. There are really stimulating aspects to that and really stressful aspects to that.
So, if you can be honest about that, my personal philosophy is a progressive one. It's progress over perfection, which means, you do get out of the way, and you do leave teams to have contact with the enemy or try something new. And I think, fundamentally, that means the innovation can be spread out across the whole organization rather than, in a lab, or in a well-packaged part of the company.
You want everyone to be trying to change things, and improve things.
Charles (22:33):
I read a stat, not too long ago, that said, 90% of all innovation labs fail to provide even one iota of innovation—
James Townsend (22:38):
I have no doubt.
Charles (22:39):
No doubt?
James Townsend (22:39):
But if you make it a KPI, that everyone has to improve what they've done before, and change what they've done before, because the assertion is, it can be better, then, you know, all tides rise, maybe.
Charles (22:50):
If you have a company built on an acquisition strategy, and mindset, maybe not built on but maybe expanded by, accelerated—
James Townsend (22:58):
It's only a part of it.
Charles (22:58):
—accelerated by, right?
James Townsend (22:59):
Yeah. Yeah.
Charles (23:00):
That's perhaps the hardest thing to do, integrating different cultures is perhaps the hardest thing to do in the business world.
James Townsend (23:05):
Yeah.
Charles (23:05):
I've done it myself, it was painful, ultimately—
James Townsend (23:08):
Yes.
Charles (23:08):
—successful—
James Townsend (23:09):
Yes.
Charles (23:09):
—but many of them fail.
James Townsend (23:10):
Yes.
Charles (23:10):
What have you learned about how to do that successfully?
James Townsend (23:13):
Yeah.
Charles (23:13):
What are the truths that have to be in place?
James Townsend (23:14):
Yeah, I mean, and we're still in process in this, so I wouldn't want to, sort of, claim victory just yet. I think you absolutely, you gotta have a clear, but relatively open-ended, promise. You know, this idea of maybe finding the change that fuels growth, maybe that's an unending brief for anything.
Like, we're a media company, but maybe that could be applied to any part of any business. So, it's an open-ended invitation. So I think a clear North Star, that describes the kind of environment you're operating in, a brief to our people and a promise to our clients if you like.
But, I think in terms of, I mentioned it earlier, you know, legitimately and top-down communication of generosity and curiosity. When you hear the word M or A, everybody tenses up, because the assumption is something understandably cynical. Like, is this a cost-cutting exercise? Is this something that's there to, sort of, serve a corporate agenda?
And in our case, we're lucky to be in a growth business. So, you know, really what we're doing is additive. You know, we're talking about incremental opportunity here, and creating that, against our market dynamics, so our sector. But if you can convince everybody that if you can be curious about those people that don't look like you, don't do what you do, a data scientist sitting next to a creative art director, or an art director sitting next to a media planner, or an e-commerce specialist sitting next to a brand strategist.
The sort of opportunity for development and learning I think is huge. So, that requires a generous person to give of themselves, and their expertise, time as well. So it's practical, it's not just a, sort of, personal agenda. But that curiosity also has to be there so you can really not put your elbows out and defend your territory, but open yourself up to what you might be able to create.
And that, that's probably the best definition of the type of creative exercises that I'm involved in regularly, which is bringing different groups together, different combinations together, and trying to find an ingredient that really creates some extra value for, as I said, for people and for clients.
So really, those are the two traits I think, generosity and curiosity, and a clear North Star. A clear strategy, a relevant strategy, but once you get up and out of those baseline areas, the behaviors have to be conducive to realizing the benefit of what you've done, which is bring two or three or four things together. And that's a learning opportunity. That's growth opportunity.
Charles (25:27):
And implicit within that is that, you're trying to create a certain kind of culture, right?
James Townsend (25:31):
Yes.
Charles (25:32):
Which—
James Townsend (25:32):
Absolutely.
Charles (25:32):
—which has certain attributes to it?
James Townsend (25:34):
Yes. Yes.
Charles (25:35):
We were chatting for a few minutes before we started talking about certainly my sense that there is the emerging shift of sensibility around leadership. That people are clamoring for leadership that is more vulnerable.
James Townsend (25:49):
Yeah.
Charles (25:49):
You talked about leadership sitting at the middle of the bus rather than out front.
James Townsend (25:53):
Yeah.
Charles (25:54):
Leading from the middle. I've heard other people this week talking about leading from the back of the bus.
James Townsend (25:57):
Yes.
Charles (25:58):
I think all of this, to me, speaks to the same dynamic, which is, people are clamoring for, let's get away from top-down, hierarchical leadership—
James Townsend (26:04):
Yeah.
Charles (26:05):
—and into a different form of, sort of, collaborative leadership.
James Townsend (26:07):
Yeah.
Charles (26:07):
People who listen to podcast at all, know that I loathe the idea of servant leadership, and I don't think that's what you're talking about at all.
James Townsend (26:13):
No. Not at all.
Charles (26:14):
You talked about center connected?
James Townsend (26:16):
Yeah. I did. I mean I… and I think, probably there'd be some (laughs) some on my team that would listen to this, and, on a bad day I'm too far away, on a good day I'm too far in, and I think that's something I'm mindful of, and it's something I'm... because we've changed quite significantly and then we're a much different shape animal than we were even two or three years ago.
I think it's an important trait of a leader to be able to look at your own time, behavior application and, you know, is that, is that right for the time? Is that right for the moment? I think, in answer to your question, Charles, that metaphor of leading from the middle is an attempt, first of all to compress the hierarchies of maybe the past, but I think there's also something around, that magpie point, point you made, there is a time for very directorial leadership, in the start of a merger, being clear about what we're here to do, not leaving too much doubt about what is on the table and what's off the table, I think is probably one of the reasons many merger fail, because there is a lack of clarity, there is an ambiguity that is unnecessary.
So, I think being able to wear a few different hats is important, that fundamentally, operating with humanity, operating at eye level, I think is important. And I also think young people, certainly talented young people, that want to express themselves aren't looking to be told what to do in that literal sense. Aren't looking to be told where to go and how to go about it.
And the how to go about it bit I think is ultimately stifling these days. If you're being given an instruction manual in a creative organization, that gives you no space to try and move around the edges. And that's often where I think innovation comes from. It comes from the edges.
So, I think, yeah, leading from the middle is an attempt to, sort of, say really maybe it's leading from eye level. I mean, leading with others, but also being able to recognize when there's a need for a moment of clarity or a moment of a clear decision, especially in a fast-growing business, where we're having to make decision quite regularly, that are quite significant.
Charles (28:09):
What do you think we have to do, proactively, with intention, to create environments to which we can have a much more diverse leadership set? I mean, it's we talked about it forever as across an industry—
James Townsend (28:20):
Yeah.
Charles (28:21):
—as an industry built by white me, for white men. There aren't enough women, there aren't enough minorities.
James Townsend (28:24):
Yeah.
Charles (28:25):
What do we actively have to do? What should be the priority from your perspective?
James Townsend (28:28):
Yeah, it's a, it's a good que— I mean, I think you’ve got to look to find people from different places. I mean, if you look to the majority of even along the Croisette here, it's a very similar, demographic, similar profile. I suspect they came from similar places, you know.
Certain Western backgrounds, certain privileged, you know, education systems, et cetera, et cetera. And there's a place for that, but absolutely we are still very narrow in our aperture. I think you probably gotta go and find high-talent individuals that bring a different perspective, from different parts of the industry, other sectors, and also obviously society, and geographies as well, and geography.
So, I probably would think it's about making sure that there are doorways that are open, and inviting, actually, and welcoming, and even if the doorway was open, I'm not sure it has always been a welcoming doorway. To a much broader collection of individuals, be that people from color, people with different points of view on their sexuality, or, of course, the impact of female leadership.
To what I think you're somewhat alluding to, which is slightly masculine, slightly, kind of, old school, lead from the front and there's a place for aspects of those, sorts of, traits, but that is a very narrow slither of, I think, what young people, modern people want from a leadership group actually. I won't say an individual, but a leadership group, because if we're going to be more diverse, I think leadership does become more of a team game.
I think the idea of a single individual sitting in a scaled organization, calling the shots, is an incredibly limiting one. So, if you can get a broader collection of influences, and, give them an environment where they can express themselves, and just about keep that North Star clear—
Charles (30:11):
Yeah.
James Townsend (30:12):
—that, to me, is a great opportunity. And I think Val Davis in North America, in our business has done an amazing job of building a diverse team, a largely female leadership team actually, but the way those meetings run are completely different to how it may be in an alternative way.
And there's huge value in that. I mean, I think progress in a different way. And I think it's a, it was, has been an education for me in that respect actually.
Charles (30:33):
I mean, I think it's such an important moment in terms of evolution and development of leadership as a practice and as a capability, because clearly, people want more transparent leadership, more vulnerable leadership—
James Townsend (30:45):
Yes.
Charles (30:45):
—I think they're asking for that, pleading for that. The flip side of that is as leaders pull back, and stop providing this sort of hierarchical, top-down direction—
James Townsend (30:53):
Yeah.
Charles (30:54):
—it can create a void in which not enough is happening as a result.
James Townsend (30:57):
Well, I think you can end up in a place where you drift. And so, I think that has to be around choosing, with, with a sense of authenticity, the moment when you are sharper and clearer and more singular, and I think that can sometimes create tension. Because, if you're trying to build this collegiate, you know, we're a company of leaders, you can say that with good intention, but if a decision has to be made as a CEO, you need to be able to make that, and then people not think that you're disingenuous.
And I think that's actually—
Charles (31:23):
Yeah.
James Townsend (31:24):
—there's inherent tension in that.
Charles (31:24):
Yeah.
James Townsend (31:25):
And I think you said the word earlier, like, if you'd built a relationship up with that leadership group, with the company actually, they'll trust you, and allow you that moment, and accept that, that was a necessary moment for the business, and that clarity was required, and clarity comes with maybe singular thought sometimes. But it doesn't mean you don't take input, it doesn't mean you don't take a degree of feedback afterwards (laughs) which is almost inevitable, whether you ask for it or not, and rightly so.
But I think you make a point about diversity, and I think some of that's a definition of diversity too. There is the very necessary obvious diversity, that we lack, which is people from different places, who look different. But I think, intellectual, emotional diversity is also something that's—
Charles (32:05):
Mm-hmm.
James Townsend (32:06):
—perhaps the next chapter of that, next vanguard of that, that conversation, because, you are allowed to be a leader and be an introvert now, in some respects. You're allowed to be a leader and be incredibly informal, or not as the case may be. And I think that makes for a much more interesting collection of companies in any given sectors. You know, imagine that. The behavior is so different to what was much more uniform, and was a uniform. It was a suit and a tie and a guy sitting in a big wood paneled office. And we're beyond that, I think.
So, I think we are making progress, but there are doors that are welcoming, and genuinely welcoming, and present opportunity for people that mainly haven't been populating that environment before.
Charles (32:49):
You have big job, it's a visible job, most people are never going to have a job like that. What's that job like? What's the responsibility of that job like?
James Townsend (32:57):
I feel very lucky. I feel immensely privileged actually, and you asked me about whether I wanted to be, you know, captain of the football team, like I want to be captain of the football team, I find that to be a place I feel stimulated... it's a dangerous comment this, but feel comfortable. I feel comfortable in that, in that environment, and that, in this collection of tasks in that job I enjoy.
Like, defining and articulating the kind of company we might be. Trying to build a collection of leaders around me that are enabled and thriving. Dealing with the problems, I enjoy the problems, that inevitably come your way, whether that's our own failures or, or market dynamics.
So I enjoy the responsibility. And I, and I mean that, and I don't mean that, I try not to sound, sort of, flippant with that. As I said, it's 6,000 families, it's 6,000 mortgages, but I'd rather take that responsibility. And I think it also is a privilege, because it gives you huge access to learning for yourself.
You know, I mean, here we are, in the south of France, and it's just this explosion of actually, learning opportunities. And I get to meet people that are cleverer than me, people that are different than me, people that have a different perspective than me, and if you can, kind of, take that, and be a good magpie, and be someone who can, kind of, join some dots, then that's a really enriching thing for me as an individual.
So, I feel very privilege to be in the position, and I enjoy it immensely.
Charles (34:14):
Last two questions for you, how do you lead?
James Townsend (34:18):
I try and live that mantra of being a credible optimist. I don't apologize. Qe talk about this a lot, you know, we are a growth business. Growth in all forms. We want our business to grow, our people to grow, and our clients to benefit from that with their own growth.
I try and be honest about what we're trying to do here, which is continual change management, continual change, with the assertion that that can make us better. With the assertion that we can always make us better.
So, I hope I'm progressive in that respect. It's a progressive agenda. We can always do better. we can make tomorrow better than today. And I think some of that looks at some of the sustainability work we're trying to do. And, you know, we are in business, and we are in business to make profits, and that's a good thing, but we also have to make sure we're doing that in a responsible and progressive way, in terms of the impact of that.
So, I'd like to think I was a credible and optimistic leader, honest about the difficulties that we face, and the positions we put ourselves in. No one is doing this to us, we're doing this to ourselves, because we believe we can be better. We believe it can offer more value. We believe we can provide better opportunities for the people in our company, and the people that are going to join our company.
You know, you asked about what success was. If people left the organization that we're in, and they went, looking back, these are the most catalytic years of my career. I learned more here than I ever have. It allowed me to broaden my horizons, that would be a fantastic version of success, I think.
Charles (35:41):
And last question, as you look at the future, what are you afraid of?
James Townsend (35:46):
I think, as the business grows, as we become a version of a scaled company, you know, a number of thousands of people, 60 locations around the world, maintaining some of those behaviors, or, if you like, culture. I'm confident that we can write a proposition that the market will react well to.
We're a future-facing business. We're a digital company. We're a creative company. I think the business market wants more of that, than less.
So, I'm confident we can design a company that can deliver on growth, in that literal sense. But I think if we lose our way, in terms of how you get there, and how you operate, and how one, as an individual, as a team, as a department, as a market, a region, as a collective company, if you lose your way in those behaviors, you become something that's, at best, mediocre, at worse, sort of, fairly toxic, or underwhelming.
And that's no fun at all.
Charles (36:40):
James, thank you so much for joining me today. I'm really struck by your clarity, your energy, and your humanity. I think that you just have a combination of qualities that are really compelling.
I mean, there's a very instinctive sense of leadership about you, and I wish you enormous success going forward, I am sure that you will achieve it.
James Townsend (36:58):
Well, Charles, you're very generous to invite me here, and I'm very thankful for the time.
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