Nils Leonard of Uncommon London
ARE YOU happy?
"FEARLESS CREATIVE LEADERSHIP" PODCAST - TRANSCRIPT
Episode 218: Nils Leonard
Here’s a question. Are you happy?
I’m Charles Day. I work with creative and innovative companies. I’m asked to coach their leaders to help them succeed where leadership has its greatest impact. The intersection of strategy and humanity.
This week’s guest is Nils Leonard, the co-founder of Uncommon London. Nils has been on the podcast before.
I ask him back pretty regularly because every one of our conversations expands my understanding of leadership.
I think he keeps saying, “Yes,” because each time he learns something about himself.
In this week’s episode, we covered a lot of new ground. In truth, I could have highlighted a number of areas as worthy of close attention.
But this is the one that really stands out for me.
“The self reflection in the world's got completely lost between the screen of our mobiles and how busy our jobs are. You know, how many times do any of us stop and go, ‘Am I still doing this for the right reasons and does this make me happy? Does this make me happy? Am I happy?’?”
Life is short. Careers are shorter.
I find myself saying this quite often these days as a reminder that within the maelstrom of running a business, we are also, and more importantly, living a life.
Leadership comes at you hard and fast. It is demanding and unrelenting and it is easy - very easy - to get swept along in the expectations that are placed on us.
Managing those expectations are hard when they come from other people. But the more important and consequential challenge is to manage the expectations we have of ourselves.
The first and critical step is to define what you mean by success. In all its forms and attributes.
Personally, I believe that one of those definitions should include the word ‘happy’.
Too many people think doing that makes them selfish.
But in my experience, the people that are clear that they want to be happy are also the ones who have given the most thought to what that means to them.
Often, most often, it includes the desire to help others unlock their potential.
So, are you doing something that makes you happy? And how do you know?
Here’s Nils Leonard.
Charles (02:42):
Nils, welcome back to Fearless. Thanks so much for coming back on the show.
Nils Leonard (02:46):
Charles, thank you for having me. Lovely speaking to you.
Charles (02:50):
Here's a ridiculously unfair question to start with. Where do you think we are as a society?
Nils Leonard (02:56):
I think, really honestly, I think it's a really weird time, I think it's a very tender time. I want to say the word ‘sad’, actually. I think that the more people I talk to, right or wrong, I think there's a bit… and I don't, I'm not really a negative person, but I do want to say that in the most tender sense of the word, I think everyone's a bit sad. I think people are scratching their heads and bit like, “Why is it like this?” And I think even when they're in the rage, when they're out of the rage, they're kind of going, “God, where are we at?” And I think it does, it just feels like a very tender and a very sad moment and we all feel a little bit, I think, like our hands aren’t on the tiller. And I think before there was… You know, a lot of our positioning rests on this sense of crisis and this sense of response and it always has. But I think in general, I don't think there's ever been so much crisis in every sense.
And I think that's why you're seeing a collective kindness than I think you've ever seen before. That word, you're seeing words like ‘caring’ and ‘kindness’, supposedly soft words are being used more and more and more. And I think that's as a result of how we're all feeling, you know? And I think it's a really big macro state of a little bit of sadness, a bit of worry, a bit of fear, but really, I think, it's a very strange time, actually.
Charles (04:10):
What do you think people are looking for? What do you think's gonna change this? What's gonna move it to the positive?
Nils Leonard (04:16):
I think people are looking for more empathic, real leadership in every sense. I mean that in terms of the leaders that are governing our countries, I mean, just look at UK and its relationship now with politicians have never been so stripped bare. We've lost, you know, any sense of faith, actually, that anyone running here has a real empathy with the country that they're managing. And with the state of things and... We feel like we're managing them, you know, or managing ourselves through a situation, as opposed to having faith in some belief, you know, system or having faith in someone's ability to change things.
I just don't think it feels that way. I mean, I realize I'm saying these words and it feels incredibly apathetic, I don't mean to, I just think it... We feel very much like we're out of control, and I think there's also a fear that the answer to that cannot just be more outrage. It cannot just be more, you know, anger and pushing and vitriol into a social hole. I think we are recognizing that we need deeper, more societal answers to this stuff. And more wisdom and more intelligence, really. And I think that's the first time. You know, I think culture's seeing that. You're reading it across the board and you're seeing people really respond in that way and... I think it's in… I think we're growing. (laughs) You know, maybe. I think we're all growing. And I think it hurts when that happens, a bit, is how it feels.
Charles (05:29):
So what do you think that means for leadership? I mean, given the fact that, to your point, at least politically there is no faith, and there's obviously massive divisions over here, it feels like we're always on the brink of civil war over here, because you're always looking at people and saying, "Are you on our side or their side?". What do you think that means for leadership?
Nils Leonard (05:45):
I think empathy, I think a balance... I think genuine, almost Roman politic is going to be important. Like, everything is so outrageous. Everything is so black or white. Everything is so either full-on or dialed-back that I think the only way to sway things is going to be optimism, actually. It's going to be the soft stuff. It's going to be empathy, it's going to be care, it's going to be optimism, it's going to be smarts. I think you're going to see leaders who are good at listening. And leaders who allow the rage to leave a room. I think that I'm feeling a bit like the time for just impotent rage and change and banners and fireworks is actually feeling a little worn out, you know? I think we've run out of jet fuel. (laughs) And I feel like there's a bit of a need for a very different energy, you know? And I don't mean soft in an impotent way, I almost mean it in a very, very powerful way, in an expansive way, in a smart way. And I think you’re going to see that across the board.
I also think you're going to see people that have an open, I think, an open ability to get people enjoying their lives again, along the ride, succeeding. I think this kind of grimace into the abyss and this sense of… You know, you saw Elon at Twitter, for God's sake, attempting to bring back some sort of, I don't know, you know, sort of early eighties grind ethic or something going on in there. I was just like, "Wow, man." You know, it wasn't just him, it was the reaction to all of those values that you could feel everybody collectively sighing at. And I think you're going to see people who, I don't know, you know… it's not just about enjoying being along for the ride, it's about a belief that this should be a fun ride for everybody involved. You know, a collective sense of a part in a moment, and a part in something that's optimistic and hopeful and feels good, and we all want to go the right way.
And I think in a time of trepidation where we're questioning absolutely everything, where everything feels around us like it's unclear or is an argument, I think you're going to need to believe in, in slow and steady, and you're going to need to believe in a way forward that is just a bit more tender, a bit more reflective, probably, and a bit wiser. I think wisdom. Wisdom's a really under-said word. There's a lot of talk about aging in our industry in particular, but I think, rather than sticking our hands up for ages, let's talk about wisdom and experience. I think people want to feel a measure of that. And to trust in it, I think. And to believe that we've all been here before and that the path is going to be all right, I think. If that's not too big a thing to say.
Charles (08:13):
No, I think it's filled with hope, actually, which is thematically consistent with our conversations. But given the trauma, I think that's a fair word to use, of the last three years…. You know, you were telling me a couple of conversations ago, you were hospitalized as a result of COVID, albeit briefly, but nevertheless, it's traumatic. I mean, so many people have suffered so much as a result of the last two, two and a half, three years. Where do you think leaders get the confidence, where do you think they get the energy from, to provide that set of soft skills? I mean, I couldn't agree with you more, I think that that's what people need. But leaders are human, too. And where do they get that from?
Nils Leonard (08:53):
Well I've always believed that everyone draws their own energy from their own stuff, and that… You know, I saw this Western once, I don't know whether I talked to you about it, but, you know, (laughs) this guy's brother had been killed in a Western, and they are, I suppose, the most extreme form of storytelling, Westerns, aren't they? Like, everything's on 11. But his brother had been killed, and to remind himself that his brother had been killed, he decided to go on his revenge journey with his brother in a coffin tied to his leg. This is my analogy, of course, for the stuff we take in the world. We've often divorced from our professional lives over, I've talked a lot about that.
But I kind of think the same is true here, but let's all imagine that we're all where we are, (laughs) what voice do you want to hear in the morning? You know, welcome you in the door. And what briefing do you want to hear, and I think it's a different voice to the voice maybe five years ago that would've beckoned you in. I think people do want change, but I think they want measured change that we can understand and believe to be correct. I think we are sick of... and I think that's true at work. So I think anybody that has a consistent set of values and goals and missions and can articulate them, and articulation, by the way, is I think one of the most underused skills in our game, just the ability without ego to tell somebody why you're doing what you're doing, and why they should join you on that journey, I think is, is insanely important.
You know, you can't expect just to put something inflammatory on your socials now and have people join your banner, I don't think. But I think that ability to turn up every day and believe that you are moving the needle the right way with wisdom, with care, with tenderness, in a way that isn't hurting others, I think is going to be incredibly important. You know, and a sense of measured listening, I think, is also going to be important, you know, that people don't know what way is up. So I think any company developing those skills that feels less irrational and less responsive in that sense is going to be good. I partner that, though, with productivity. You know, I think people need to make… In my industry, all of this, the temptation with this whole scenario in our industry is to just retreat, and for us all to be okay in our own bubbles talking to ourselves, winging at awards shows, or freaking out in meetings. You could talk ourselves into complete inaction if we weren't careful. So I think all of that balance, though, with it, still put things out there. Do not be afraid to put things out into the world, it's the only way they work.
Charles (11:10):
You've always been very clear and consistent about a kind of company you want to build. Society and human beings’ life is always about adapting. Lord knows the pandemic required massive adaptation. How do you see the difference between adapting and compromising? What's the line between those two?
Nils Leonard (11:28):
I think adapting's learning, right? Learning hurts. If you remember being at school when you didn't know something and your cheeks would flush red, do you remember that? You—
Charles (11:34):
Yeah.
Nils Leonard (11:35):
Literally it hurt. It fucking hurts. And I've felt that in times in this company, you know? Like, that mix of embarrassment and crushing realization that you just really don't know, actually, shit, and then suddenly you do, and then suddenly you're learning, and then it works. I think the worst thing in the world is to just not try. You know, I'm terrified of that feeling. And you feel it in meetings where people go, "Oh, we'll just carry on and they've just asked for this and this, they've said they don't really want to try that this time." And I'm more scared of that. I'm more scared of us being found out as normal than I am of fucking it up. I would much rather have tried two things, one of them was a complete disaster on social, the other just didn't work and was invisible, than just settle. I mean, COVID was interesting for us. Luckily our positioning, you know, we have this quote from Death Of a Salesman, "I don't care about stories have passed or any crap of that kind, because the woods are burning." It's a story about feeling uncomfortable, feeling like things around you are pushing you for change. I mean, Jesus, the recent events, we used to have to insert that quote or that feeling into our creds. We don't have to do that anymore. People are picking up the phone going, "Yeah, the fucking woods are burning, help."
And so, the company weirdly naturally pivoted in that time. You know, not many... I heard these stories about people whose clients just retreated and everything went quiet. I mean, 90% of our client list picked up the phone and went, "Right, we want to do something." And I think... you know, now is a more complex and weirder time, but I think the same rules apply, in how we try to matter and the things we try and do. Also we're trying to get better at satisfying ourselves. We have a big problem with dependency, Charles, here. I hate the idea that we would wait for a client or wait for somebody else to allow us to make our best work. That always struck me as insanity. You hear our agencies tell these stories, you know, "It took me two years to sell this idea and then finally it happened." And you're like, "Why did it take you two years asking someone less ambitious than you to make your dreams come true?" In what other world would you think that was okay?
I've always believed that not enough of us are mechanical about our values. And I mean that literally in the sense of the word, in that particularly in our industry, despite the fact we give advice all day to brands and offer them operating systems and triangles and pyramids and onions, we're woeful at doing the same for ourselves, and giving ourselves codes to live by and exist by as an agency or studio. And so for Uncommon, I was desperate to have a code to exist by that wasn't just based on a client's happiness or effectiveness. You know, and it was like, that was always, to me, the big sort of sabotage within our industry, was that our entire thing had suddenly woken up and was dependent on our client's happiness. And, of course, we shouldn't exist purely for our client's happiness, we should exist for other reason and should partner with them, you know, out of mutual respect or some sense of need.
Charles (14:17):
One of the clear dynamics that came as a result of the pandemic, during, as a result of the pandemic, was the number of people leaving their jobs. And, of course, now there's research coming out that suggests that somewhere between 30 and 75% of the people that did that regret the fact that they left, they found themselves in positions that were certainly no better, in some cases worse, they'd lost the connection with the culture that they had been part of for a long time. Do you think we're going to see a swing back the other way? Will we see more stability in terms of how long people want to stick around at companies, do you think?
Nils Leonard (14:47):
Oh, no idea, I think people want stability, full stop. I mean, but, you know, the Virginia Wolfe thing, you can't find peace by avoiding life. I mean, the truth is, there's many ways to get stability, and the best way to control stability is to control your own, not to be dependent on someone else to find it. So, to some degree, no, I think everyone left out their jobs because they were like, "Fuck this," and, "I get to live once," and all the above, and I'm sure some of them regret it. Some of them don't, though, you know? And I think the ones that don't are the ones that left with a plan, man. You know, it sounds awful, but it's the basic stuff.
You know, leap out of a boat with no boat... if you can't swim, you know, and if you do, then I understand that and that's, you know, I know why people would do that and all the above, but—I really do have… was excited to leap the fuck out of the boat and went, “I’ve got a better idea, got my own idea, it's been the kick in the ass I needed, and fuck all, and watch me go win.” And those people, that's a thrilling journey to watch. And so what I would say is, if people want stability, what they'll look for, hopefully, is create their own.
And I've always just loved any sentiment where people are more in charge and more able to look after themselves than less. And that for me is about a less of a dependency on the big places, and less of a dependency on what a classic career would look like. I tell you what I'm really, and forgive me here, I think the big platforms have had it coming. And I mean that in a weird sense in that I think they've just hoovered and vacuumed people now to the point where I look at some of the most talented creative minds in my industry who've completely gone missing. I'm looking and talking about arguably people who would be my peers, who'd be leading companies or startups of their own now, who disappeared off to the platforms, you know, over the last seven to 10 years. And I don't blame them, but who've become impotent.
You know, unable in any way to make their creative power felt. And I think you're starting to see the platforms kind of shake and quake a little bit, and people start to question whether they want to go and spend their time doing that anymore. You know, yeah, there's an extra zero at the end, but that's not enough most of the time, actually. That's not really why creatives get out of bed. And so I'm hoping that what we're going to see there is people go, "Yeah, I do want stability, but I want to do it doing the things that matter to me." I think it was cool to walk into a bar and say you worked at a platform five years ago. I'm not sure that that rings true the same way now. And I think, actually, people are looking at other ways to go and make their money. So I really hope that's true and not just a story I tell myself.
Charles (17:05):
I think it's a really relevant point, actually. I mean, you always talked a lot about not wanting to have passenger clients, and equally importantly, I've always thought you didn't want passenger people. And I wonder whether the issue is that people are not discerning enough about where they work, on multiple levels. I mean, I think your point about the platforms is right on the money. I've watched people that I know and respect go off and take jobs and you think, why are you doing that, other than for the money?
Nils Leonard (17:28):
Oh, we're bad at asking ourselves these questions, you know? We're bad at... People are... I don't know if any of us wake up and want to ask ourselves those questions, man. The self reflection in the world's got completely lost between the screen of our mobiles and how busy our jobs are. You know, how many times do any of us stop and go, "Am I still doing this for the right reasons and does this make me happy? Does this make me happy? Am I happy?" Genuinely, you know. I think that stuff has gone missing and, obviously I meet a lot of people here in interviews and all the above, but when you meet people who really know what they want, including clients, it's incredibly healthy and powerful and an incredibly inspiring thing.
So when you sit down, you go, "Hey, why are you talking to me?" And they go, "Well, I've seen you do this and this and I want to make sure it's not bullshit, and I want to hear you tell me about your company because what matters to me is dun, dun, dun." You go, "Okay, great." That person has sat down and looked at themselves in the mirror and gone, "This is what matters to me," and I agree. The platforms gave us a way not to do that, though. You know, because they gave us titles like Chief Creative Officer. But what is the Chief Creative Officer of, you know, 42 gigabytes of paid-for content? Is that the same thing?
I mean, like, seriously, though. And at that point you go, "Well, what are you, what are you putting your back into?" I think people are seeing through that now, you know. And I think we're seeing that the… yeah, a change, I hope.
Charles (18:44):
Yeah, I think that's true. And I think, to your point, trying to help people be more discerning about what's right for them, what makes them happy, what fulfills them, what's the legacy they want to leave, is a fundamental part of the journey of just being alive these days. And I think that the last two and a half years have really brought that to the fore, that we need to be more curious about the difference we're trying to make.
Nils Leonard (19:05):
Well, I think so, yeah. You know, someone told me as well, like, "What's your best week? What's your best month? What's your best year?" And forcing yourself to put on a bit of paper what will have happened in that timeframe is powerful. You know, we force ourselves to do that a lot of that at Uncommon. And so it leads to, actually, sadly, quite a lot of sort of disappointment in some ways because we go, "Oh God, we really wanted to have done this." The truth is, though, it's a healthy disappointment. Because we'll have accomplished three or what, three or four other things but not that one. But I think just putting down on paper that stuff is really handy.
Another thing, I don't know if anyone does… when we meet clients - this just dawned on me recently - we always ask them why they're here. We never used to do that. You know, we never used to do that. We used to be so grateful. I remember in my previous life at Grey, I would be just so happy they were in the room. I'd be like, "Let me show you my shit. Oh, I really want to impress you and look what we did." And I'd not for a second ask them why they came there. And of course... how was I then supposed to know whether they were going to be a good partner or not? You know? And I think that that line of candid questioning is really important, too.
Charles (20:09):
Yeah, I see that in interviews all the time, where people are so busy selling the company to the potential candidate that they forget to figure out whether the candidate is a good fit for the company. How is your leadership personally changed as a result of the last two, two and a half years? How are you different?
Nils Leonard (20:28):
(laughs) You ask these immense questions, I've no idea. Well I've been… I think I've been learning. I think myself and my other founders knew that we could lead, or what we thought was leadership, but I don't think we've ever led anything of this level. Or at this speed, or all of the above. So, that's the God's honest truth, is I think we've all been continually learning and trying to build a culture of very, very high performance. And I think some of that has been good and bad learnings, you know. I'm going to talk very tangibly about some stuff instead of big expansive topics. But, I mean, we started putting in half an hour reviews, because our diaries got full. Now how on earth in half an hour are you supposed to listen to four people's amazing ideas articulated with openness and first thoughts, and then give any sort of meaningful feedback that people can take away? It was a disaster.
And really what it started to force are those excellent conversations where you go, "Well, we're not going to compromise on time, but we're just going to do less and we're going to do it really, really, really well." And it forced really healthy, I think, conversations around, well, if we take that client on, that means that we'll be at capacity for the studio for at least a couple of months, so we won't take this one on. Instead of just taking them both on and trying to do the best on both. And I think, as a result, it's kept the work at a really high standard. Those things sound incredibly simplistic, but they're the key, you know? The key isn't just rapid growth until you become baggy and shit and hopefully no one notices, that is not an answer. (laughs)
But that's, honestly, man, I've worked in enough agencies to go, "That is honestly the game." Whereas I actually look at Uncommon and go, "I just can't afford that." My biggest fear, last year and this year, is that we wake up and it's just not what we promised it would be to ourselves. So I think tangibles like that. I think I try my hardest to still listen and to still make time for new voices in the mix, and to still really hear them and feel the energy of the place. I think make time for fun. We're really fucking bad at making time for fun here, actually. A lot of us here just have this, I don't even know what the word is for it, but we've nailed something and it'll be like, "Right, now how do we really maximize that?" Or, "How do we really do this?" And then onto the next, "You know what we should next week as a result of that?”
And I just don't think we make times to put our hands around each other and go, "Do you know what? That's fucking excellent, great job, well done." And that's a massively important part of it, because those are the bits you weirdly remember somehow. You won't remember being in the edits where we’re grinding on it, you just won't, ever. And I think those things are important. And being really honest with you, I think really still making time for each other as founders and still making time for each other as colleagues. You know, there are people I've worked with now, building what we've built here for five odd years, and it's very easy to assume that everyone at that very high level is on a hundred miles an hour and we don't need to spend a lot of time with each other, and I actually think the opposite is true. You know, there are conversations we need to have now that are almost more critical, I think. So those have been the learnings. You know, really the simple stuff, strangely.
Charles (23:23):
I'm not sure if I've ever asked you this question. Do you want this company to outlive you? Outlive the three of you? Does that matter to you?
Nils Leonard (23:32):
I want… Oh God, this is going to betray some horrendous human truths, isn't it?
I don't necessarily... This is my view, Lucy and Natalie will have theirs. I don't want the company to outlive us, but I would love us to have made a mark in culture way before our demise, where people recognize what we've done, where they talk about it, where your wife, Charles, or daughter or, you know, goes, "Oh, and, you know, those guys." And I want that to be in the real world, not in our circles. I don't want a salute within our industry for having made slightly better adverts than someone else or... You know, the dream for Uncommon was legitimately that we would be a company that someone would go, "Oh, I love those guys, they made that thing." Or, "They did that thing." Or, "Oh, I fucking love their products." Or our logo's on the back of a brand that has genuinely made the world better, you know?
We're creating a sex brand, actually. And I won't go into too much details on it, but we're very excited about it, but essentially, it's combating, for the first time in history, the death of sex. And this is the idea, that as humans, we have never had less sex. You know, the generation in their 20s now, their parents and grandparents had more sex than them. Now don't get me wrong, I'm talking about sex, but really I am talking about connection. I'm talking about our ability as humans to just come together, to speak, to engage, to remind each other that life is not fucking boring. And our ability to remind each other of our souls and our sordid disasters and our failures is part of, really, how you rescue a culture. But, you know, and I'm talking as a company, but I also mean in the world, you know? And I think we've got to want to.
I also think the awkward's gone missing. Humans used to be brilliant, brilliant, brilliant, kind of beings at dealing with awkwardness. Do you remember when you'd go to a party and you didn't have a mobile phone and no one was speaking to you? You couldn't stand… like, you watch everybody now at a station, no one knows how to be alone. No one knows how to not say something. So the moment you're not saying something, someone pulls out a phone. If you're at the station, you pull out a phone. If you're at a party and you walk in and no one's talking to you, you pull out a phone, lean against something. What did we do before we did that, do you remember?
Charles (25:38):
Well, frankly, some of us pull out phones even when you are talking to us, so... (laughs)
Nils Leonard (25:42):
You know what I'm saying? I'm like… Fuck, and there's a power in comfort, being completely comfortable with an awkward situation, that's how humans become really strong. People who are comfortable with silence, comfortable with pauses. Happy to listen. All those skills are attached to this conversation, so it's not just a conversation about technology, it's a conversation about our resilience, I think. And our charm, and our wit. So I think, I think all this stuff is incredibly important, and I think we do have to call it with each other. You know, I think we have to be awake and aware of our situation, you know. And I mean this sincerely as well because, if you then rewind that back into the interactions a company has, the speed at which you can work together, the candor with which you can display the truth to each other, your ability to articulate an idea to a client or a partner, all these things are locked in your social abilities as a human. And if they're being removed because of processes or our ability to not do that, I think we have to worry about that.
Charles (26:37):
You're a multidimensional thinker, and you're confident about your opinion. And those are great attributes to have from a leadership standpoint, but they also can get in the way. I think I know you well enough to know that you work pretty hard to minimize that, or to not let that be the dominant force in the room, because you easily could be, right? When you walk in a room, you have the capacity to own the room. How do you balance that for yourself? How much are you watching yourself in a given situation to make sure you're not overwhelming everybody else?
Nils Leonard (27:05):
That's a really, that's a very pertinent and good question, yep. Well, the first thing to say there is I started a business with two very candid and very bright and very ferocious people, so Natalie and Lucy are equally able to kick my ass round a room, and as a result, we've... People who are new can often see me and Lucy going at each other in a meeting room and are like, "Fucking hell, is it always like that?" And actually, it kind of is. (laughs) And I think what that teaches people is, I'm fair game, Lucy's fair game, it's just about the thinking. And it's all fair game. And provided you're bringing with candor, with no ego, with respect and all of the above, your opinion to bear, anybody's fair game.
So that culture does exist here and I think people know that. And I think if they don't know it when they arrive, three to four months, six months later they definitely know it, because they'll have seen enough meetings where I'm wrong. And, you know, that teaches everyone I can be wrong, or all the above. So on a personal sense, it's that, but I think that's true of everybody. And I think you've got to make space for that. I think there are tricks and tips where everyone in the room, their voice needs to be heard, so we don't have any passenger people in the room, they'll never be anybody sat there who doesn't say a word and then they leave. We just don't do that. I think things like that are really, really important. But yeah, measuring that is really hard, you're absolutely right.
I'll tell you the other thing though that we also have to foster, which is a really keen balance there, is a dose of conviction. So the other things we try and teach people is that every project, that it does have a bus driver or a decision maker or a voice of intent. And it doesn't matter where it comes from, it can be strategic, it can be creative, it can be whatever but without that, projects fail, too. You know, there's too much talk of openness and collaboration, I think, without that sense of venom. And I think that the best businesses have a delicate balance of both. That's the hard point, that's why it's so hard. It's because they're not one or other, you can't get right and walk the fuck off and presume it's all sorted, it's the balance. And that's a daily, daily trick.
Charles (28:58):
Is there one thing as you look ahead to 2023 that you think leaders must not do next year?
Nils Leonard (29:12):
It's a good question. The first would just be don't retreat. I think when the world is shit, you don't mean to, but you think it's wise or it's safe to or it's better to retreat. And I think if you run a creative business, it's the hardest thing in the world to put your ideas out there anyway. If you're putting them out there, and the world is rough on you and social is very open and everyone is basically waiting for things to jump up and down on, it can be terrifying. And as a leader of a business, I think that you will measure things in that way and I just would say, don't do that. I would say, be in the world, be present, make your work present, go for it. And don't worry about it, and things will move forward with the stuff you make and what you believe in. One way or another, they will. And I just want people to remember that and why we do what we do.
I think it feels a very tender and a bit of a scary time to be creative, but also to be a creative leader, I think, it's never been scarier. I also think it's very tempting to spend your time as a leader talking endlessly about culture, to spend your time talking endlessly about things that aren't additive, because they are, actually, ironically, easier. So I think being productive, putting yourself out there, putting ideas out there, making things real, is the way, though, that this thing will change. It is the way the everything will move forward and shoulders will drop. So I would just say, fucking don't stop doing that.
Fear and challenge and the unknown make people passengers and you revert to what you know or, worse, you just become kind of awful. And I think our job's to remind ourselves about why we got up in the morning. And I don't just mean the kind of company we wanted to start. The sort of life we wanted to lead. You know, the taste we wanted to have, the impact we wanted to leave on everyone around us. Benchmark of any amazing people are that are 15 stories about the way they lit a room up, or the lunch they enjoyed, or the... You know, and that's people's impact, right? You never go, "Oh my God, they made that wonderful print ad." You kind of go, "God, let me tell you a story about them, they did this thing." Or, they, you know... We've always said here, the definition of a brilliant person is they make everyone else around them shine, and it's hundred percent true, you know? Don't stop chasing that feeling.
There's a real horrendous comfort leaders want to hide in. I share it, I wanna go off like the elves and just have done it. Be cuddled, I'm needy. And you fucking can't, can you? You can't, so... Yeah.
Charles (31:33):
Nowhere to hide.
The end of our first interview conversation, you had a moment of realization which you, I think, understood that you were fundamentally hopeful. Do you still feel hopeful?
Nils Leonard (31:44):
Yeah, I really do. Yeah, I really do. I do, man, I feel, like, the way I opened this conversation is interesting. I just think there's a temptation to presume hope is this kind of jubilant, “Hey!”. It doesn't necessarily mean that. It doesn't. It's the ability to just look at everything as it is and to go, "God, this is where we're sat." You know, this is where we're sat, we're in this. And to see it and accept it and recognize it. A lot of this is from my dad, weirdly. But, you know, the ability to then get up and walk on and get through it, and put your arm around some other people and do the same with them. That's the only choice you've got, I suppose. And the moment I think about that, and the moment I think about all our places in the world and what we get to do every day, I feel immensely lucky, actually. And immensely hopeful. And, and some of the things we are doing here at Uncommon, "We're a lie or a dream," we told ourselves a while back.
They were just nonsense. And now we're doing it and I just want to sort of say that to anyone else that has a company in their mind, which is just, make it all up and really go after it. And do believe in it. You know, do believe in it. Vicky McGuire always used to say, "The world loves a gap," or something like that, but the world does. You know, but just make… just go out there and do things, you'll be so amazed by just making. Whenever we get torn up in rags or staring at our own belly buttons or all of the above here, we just look at what we've made, and we look back, and the proof is on your socials, the proof is on the work you've put out, the evidence is on a poster or, you know, on a film somewhere or... And that stuff is galvanizing and should thrill you. And we get to come to work every day with brilliant, brilliant people and do this stuff. So I innately feel very, very hopeful. I just think it's a really interesting time to be playing in.
Charles (33:30):
Thank you again for coming on the show. I always leave our conversations with an expanded view of the world, and candidly, I too feel more hopeful, so I appreciate this a lot. Thank you.
Nils Leonard (33:41):
Thanks, Charles. Cheers, dude.
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