Kerry Sulkowicz of the American Psychoanalytic Association
ARE YOU SELFISH?
"FEARLESS CREATIVE LEADERSHIP" PODCAST - TRANSCRIPT
Episode 217: Kerry Sulkowicz
Here’s a question. Are you selfish?
I’m Charles Day. I work with creative and innovative companies. I’m asked to coach their leaders to help them succeed where leadership has its greatest impact. The intersection of strategy and humanity.
This week’s guest is Kerry Sulkowicz. He’s the President of the American Psychoanalytic Association. He’s also a leadership advisor in his own right. It’s a role that requires the ability to look beyond the public-facing image that most leaders feel they need to present, so that we can see the person within.
“Leaders can't take care of other people emotionally and be there emotionally for others if they're struggling themselves. And so it does start with one's self and it's not selfish to take that approach whatsoever. It's actually smart and enlightened.”
Leaders often have a difficult time making themselves a priority.
It’s not hard to understand why, given the pressure that leaders face on an hour-by-hour basis.
There’s the pressure from above. Because, as Marc Pritchard, the CMO of P&G, said to me on an earlier episode, leadership is a weight-bearing position and demands that you help lift the people that work for you.
There’s the pressure from all the people in front of you, those in the many audiences you face, who expect you to show up as a thoughtful, confident leader - perhaps even as a thought leader.
And there’s the pressure from the people behind you, the board and the shareholders, who expect you to drive business performance forward, regardless of the circumstances.
And that’s without mentioning the pressure that you place on yourself. The pressure to succeed. To not fail. To overcome the imposter syndrome and the self-doubts.
In the middle of all that, it’s easy to convince yourself that it would be selfish to take care of yourself first.
Except, as Kerry explains, it’s not.
Taking care of yourself first is a requirement. A necessity if you are to become a leader capable not only of withstanding the pressure, but using it as a catalyst to drive the business upwards, into the future.
Only once you have taken care of yourself can you then, confidently and at scale, take care of everyone else.
Here’s Kerry Sulkowicz.
Charles (02:36):
Kerry, welcome back to Fearless. Thanks so much for coming back on the show.
Kerry Sulkowicz (02:40):
Thanks, Charles. It's always great to see you.
Charles (02:43):
When we talked last year at about this same time, we talked about the enormous change that the pandemic had brought about from a societal standpoint, as well as from a leadership standpoint. You were the one who pointed out that pandemics create massive social change. What has changed from a societal standpoint that has surprised you, over the last 12 months?
Kerry Sulkowicz (03:05):
Well, some things change, and some things stay the same, Charles. Human nature is still fundamentally what it probably was, since the dawn of time, since the dawn of civilization. We've evolved a bit but not nearly as evolved as rapidly as the world around us. So part of the challenge is to keep pace with a changing world that obviously technology and all of the things that that has wrought for better or for worse is a big part of what we have to adapt to.
I think that, you know, as we approach the end of the year and look back... by the way, I'm not a big believer in New Year's resolutions, but I'm a big believer in New Year's reflections and I'm actually quite concerned about the state of the world. I'm generally veering to the optimistic. But this is a year that has been sobering, in large part for me because of the widening divide and the difficulty talking across divides.
The greater polarization that, of course, we're so familiar with, but I think is deeply troubling. It's a time when I think democracy is in peril. That's obviously a major topic of discussion all around the world right now. But the inability to have free discussions, the threat of feeling silenced, for saying something that is a mistake.
We need to be able to make mistakes. That's part of creativity, something that you certainly know a great deal about. If we're going around walking on eggshells when we talk to each other, particularly when we talk to people who are different, that's a big concern that I have for the state of the world.
Charles (04:36):
And how do you see that divide reflecting in the workplace? What's the implication of that?
Kerry Sulkowicz (04:42):
I think it has profound implications for the workplace. For people to come together at work from diverse backgrounds, diverse in every sense of that word, and that's a wonderful thing. But when there's a fear of talking to people who are different, that severely constricts one's ability to work effectively as part of a team, as part of an organization. So I think it has profound consequences there. And I think that leaders of organizations... You know, I have the privilege to advise leaders of organizations on the soft stuff, on the people, the culture, the organizational dynamics, and so on.
Leaders are really wrestling with this. Not only because they have their own views, of course, and they have to be careful. That's not new for CEOs. But they also have to be authentic and true, and have to feel more than a modicum of freedom to speak their minds. And they're increasingly drawn into mediating conflicts within their organizations. They're also increasingly drawn into taking public positions on the political and social issues of the day. And, of course, that's a fraught activity even though it's expected of them. So it's a big challenge for leaders right now.
Charles (05:53):
And, as you said, obviously, at the political level, the absence of leadership, or the divisiveness of leadership, is profound. Apparently there are no rules anymore that apply. You can say one thing emphatically one day, and you can deny that you ever said it and claim the opposite position the next day, it seems. How do you think that affects leadership at the corporate level, at the business level? What do you think of the long-term ramifications of the evidence of that kind of behavior?
Kerry Sulkowicz (06:19):
Well, we're still trying to figure out the shorter-term ramifications, let alone the longer-term ramifications. And one of the things that's central to running an organization of any kind is some commonly accepted facts. And, you know, what constitute facts? What constitutes truth? That itself is such a foundational concept and it is something that has been shaken. We don't have mutually agreed-upon facts.
And one of the challenges of leadership, again, from the dawn of time, I would argue, is to be rooted in reality. To be rooted in the reality of the business, to be rooted in the external reality that impinges on the business. And if it's hard to settle on what is real, what is truth, then it makes it exponentially more difficult to lead.
Charles (07:07):
And do you think, from that standpoint, that therefore, leaders need to be overt about defining for their people, "This is the truth,” in whatever the environment is that obviously affects them? But I mean, it strikes me as you're talking about that, that... and I don't hear people talking about this very often. But that in fact, leaders should take the time to actually declare a set of truths in which the environment is operating. Does that resonate with you?
Kerry Sulkowicz (07:28):
It resonates completely. I couldn't agree more. I mean, that is an essential aspect of leadership, is to define for their organization what the reality is internally and externally, to the best of their abilities to do so. Knowing that reality, of course, is constantly shifting in one way or another. But it also means telling the truth.
I think there is an ever-greater demand for leaders to be candid, to be honest, and to not spin. Again, nothing particularly new there, but our ability to have transparency into what's going on that's so much greater, and so leaders are held to greater account, which I think is ultimately a good thing.
Charles (08:09):
And do you see evidence that that is changing? I mean, I think for a long time, many leaders were comfortable spinning. They perhaps wouldn't lie outright, but they would absolutely look for the most positive story in a set of facts that they could find. Do you see shifts in that now? Do you see the better leaders more willing to be more candid, and more direct with the people around them?
Kerry Sulkowicz (08:30):
I believe so. I believe so. Look, spinning isn't going to go away. It's an art form in some places. So I don't think we're going to see the end of spinning. But, yes, I think the better leaders are known for telling the truth. That's what people need to hear. That's what they need to be grounded in themselves, the leaders. So I'm hopeful that that's the direction that leadership is moving.
Charles (08:53):
You know, one of kind of the underlying elements that was really directly the implication or the impact, rather, of COVID, and the pandemic, was how it eroded our trust in life in general. I think, you know, we were exposed to circumstances that none of us could imagine would be our reality. And so the erosion of trust at a macro level seems pretty profound to me. You and I talked a year ago about the importance for leaders to create emotional connections with the people that work for them.
And that that's pretty challenging for a lot of people who developed their leadership skills in a pre-pandemic world, that they were more used to command-and-control structure. Are you seeing evidence that there is, in fact, greater awareness and greater willingness for leaders to lean in, to use that awful phrase, and actually create emotional resonance and emotional connection with the people that work for them in a way that perhaps wasn't true before?
Kerry Sulkowicz (09:41):
Yeah, I think that… And a lot has been written about this. This isn't an original idea of mine by any stretch of the imagination. I think that the need for leaders to be more emotionally connected to their people, that includes being more emotionally open and vulnerable themselves. In fact, it starts with that, that's essential, and there's a lot that's being written about that now. That's what creates safety in teams, is when the leader, him or herself, can make themselves a bit more vulnerable, a bit more open than might otherwise have been comfortable with.
That sets the tone that gives permission for others to do the same. If I can use your question, Charles, as a segue naturally into talking about the mental health aspects of the past year. So much has been written about the mental health crisis of the past few years. And it's true. It's real. I like to say that the silver lining there - there's nothing particularly good about a mental health crisis, of course - but the silver lining is that it has further destigmatized the topic of mental health in the workplace, and I would say in society at large.
And if leaders... And I'm not just talking about business leaders. Leaders of business, and government, and the arts, and so forth. If they are more open - and I'm seeing more of this - about their own emotional struggles, not just being emotionally honest, but about their emotional struggles, then that's… I think that's a good thing for society. So there are some rays of hope here despite the otherwise very concerning outlook.
Charles (11:09):
Leaders have been taught for decades, really, to sort of tough it out. I mean, even women were taught to act like men in leadership roles if they were going to be successful. There's this idea that, you know, you couldn't show weakness, you couldn't show vulnerability.
To use your reference point, leaders should be looking at themselves first of all, right? In terms of their own mental health, and making sure that they are actually equipped and ready to deal with the enormous issues that are surrounding them. What are the indicators that people should be looking for, that leaders should be looking for, in their own lives, in their own sort of wellbeing, first of all, just to make sure that they are coping appropriately with what we've all been through over the last couple years?
Kerry Sulkowicz (11:47):
Well, first of all, I, again, completely agree with you that leaders need to look at themselves first. Sometimes they have a reflexive aversion to doing so, whether it's because they don't like what they see, or because they feel that they're sort of above the problem, and don't really need any help, and they can, like you say, tough it out. But that's a terrible idea. Leaders can't take care of other people emotionally and be there emotionally for others if they're struggling themselves.
And so it does start with one's self and it's not selfish to take that approach whatsoever. It's actually smart and enlightened. So leaders do need to do that. I think leaders need to be mindful of their overall health. There's a great deal of awareness, more these days than ever before, about the risks of depression in society. You know, various manifestations of anxiety.
One of the things that really interests me, and it's just so common, are what I would refer to as the psychosomatic manifestations of underlying emotional problems. I don't remember the statistics, but an enormous percentage of visits to emergency rooms around the world have an underlying psychological cause, even if the physical problems are real. I'm not saying this is all in one's head, as sometimes people say dismissively. I'm not saying that at all.
And leaders are particularly vulnerable to this, whether it's stomach problems, back pain, headaches, all sorts of issues that have an underlying emotional cause, and are therefore psychologically mediated, even if they're, in fact, measurable physically. So something for people to really be aware of, and the reflexive response to that, which is often, "Well, let's just prescribe a drug for that." It's a terrible reflex.
That's not to say that some of these drugs can't be helpful, but people need to talk. What we really need is connection rather than medication. Medication is secondary, helpful, but still secondary. And leaders and everyone needs to have an outlet where they can let their guard down, open up about what they're feeling, what they're experiencing, and that is profoundly therapeutic when that can happen.
Charles (13:56):
And then extending that thought through, what should leaders be looking for in terms of characteristics, traits, behaviors, in the people that work for them?
Kerry Sulkowicz (14:06):
Well, to some degree, the same things that they should be looking for in themselves, in terms of things to look out for. When people's high quality of work drops off, if people are less present, either physically or in participating in meetings, that can be a sign that there is something going on.
That doesn't necessarily warrant a referral to a psychoanalyst. What it warrants is a humane, outreach to that person and, "How are you doing? What's going on? You don’t seem quite yourself. Is everything okay at home?"
Just very basic human interest and curiosity about another person's life is the first line of response, but to pay attention to subtle differences, because often people try to put their best foot forward, as it were, at work. So even subtle changes in how someone is showing up can suggest more profound changes when they let their guard down.
Charles (14:59):
I think that thought around the importance of recognizing nuance and subtlety is such an important one, because we've been dealing with such enormous macro-level issues that I think those things often get missed. One of the structural issues that we're obviously all dealing with is the change in the relationship we all have to an office and the office. And I'm sure, like me, you see so many different companies trying so many different approaches. There's no real through line yet of people figuring out what works and what doesn't.
What I'm seeing are the companies that are creating some sort of regularity are, I think, doing a better job of creating a culture that's recognizable, and sustainable, and scalable. Whereas companies that are either fully remote or are kind of random about it seem to be having a harder time. What are you seeing in terms of how people are building office cultures that create sustainable practice?
Kerry Sulkowicz (15:46):
Yeah. Well, we're still learning, so I think anybody who claims that they've figured out the formula for hybrid work, I would be suspicious about that. It's still very much a work in progress. It's not because we're just experimenting, which is absolutely what we should be doing. But we're also adapting as we go, and so our ability to perceive emotional nuance, for instance, through a screen, through a technologically mediated conversation, I would argue is probably a lot better today than it was a couple of years ago, when we were all in crisis mode.
And the high anxiety that we were all experiencing undoubtedly interfered with our more subtle perceptual abilities, for instance. So that's changing. Clearly being adaptable to the changing world is the way to go, at least it seems to be now. To acknowledge that these changes, in the availability and the use of remote communications are here to stay. I think it would be silly to assume that we're going to go back to an all in-person life. I just don't see that happening.
And there are many wonderful things about the use of technology that are well-known. I think that the more we can calm down and think about this in a reflective way, we can ask questions about, what are the kinds of human interactions that really are qualitatively different and better in-person than virtually? And to try to engineer the workforce, the workday, around ensuring that we have enough of those kinds of interactions. It's really more qualitative than it is quantitative.
Charles (17:18):
Do you see any sort of set of best practices emerging so far, early on?
Kerry Sulkowicz (17:25):
Well, it's hard to say. A certain number of days is one way that people look at it, but I think engineering the workday around ensuring a regular time for a team to meet, for instance. It doesn't really do much good for people to come into the office every Monday and then sit in their cubicle all day on Monday, and not really interact with another human being except for on a screen. That seems kind of absurd.
But if they come in every Monday or pick your day of the week, and the team gets together, and they can have not only a team meeting, but all those interactions in the interstices of human interaction that are just as important as the meeting itself. The water-cooler kind of conversation, that sort of thing, the mentoring meeting, the lunch. So I think making sure that enough of that happens, I would say, is a best practice.
Charles (18:16):
Yeah, that resonates with me. One of my guests recently, Carl Johnson, who is the chairman of the Agency of the Year, said that the question people should be asking themselves is, "What is an office for?" And I thought that was a particularly sort of astute recognition or identification of the core element of this. Is there one thing that you think a leader should not do next year? Is there one thing that above all else they need to avoid?
Kerry Sulkowicz (18:39):
I think the one thing that leaders should avoid doing, if you force me to pick one, (laughs) is to avoid certainty. Avoid certainty. Certainty is dangerous, especially in such uncertain times, when the name of the game is ambiguity and uncertainty. Certainty is inevitably premature, and an attempt to deny the continuing vagaries of life. So I think leaders should avoid being too sure of themselves.
Charles (19:09):
And on a positive note, what is the one thing or one piece of awareness, self-awareness that you think the leader should be bringing to the table next year?
Kerry Sulkowicz (19:19):
Leaders need to be aware of how they feel. Starting with that, they need to be aware of how they feel, and feelings change, of course, so there's not a static answer to that. And they need to be tuned into how the people they work with feel, both as individuals, first and foremost, but also collectively. And to the extent that they can have their finger on the pulse of the organization, the emotional state of their organization, they will be much more effective leaders. They have to really listen carefully, either both directly and through other people who are deeper down in the organization. And that kind of fingertip feel is what is necessary.
Charles (19:55):
Kerry, thank you so much for coming on the show. I so appreciate your candor in letting me put you on the spot.
Kerry Sulkowicz (20:00):
It’s always great to see you, and I never feel put on the spot by you, Charles. It's great to talk.
—————
Let us know if there are other guests you’d like to hear from, and areas you’d like to know more about or questions you have.
And don’t forget to share Fearless with your friends and colleagues.
If you’d like more, go to fearlesscreativeleadership.com where you’ll find the audio and the transcripts of every episode.
If you’d like to know more about our leadership practice, go to thelookinglass.com.
Fearless is produced by Podfly. Frances Harlow is the show’s Executive Producer. Josh Suhy is our Producer and editor. Sarah Pardoe is the Media Director for Fearless.
Thanks for listening.
