Keesha Jean-Baptiste of Hearst Magazines
Why she’s optimistic and skeptical about the impact of DE&I.
"FEARLESS CREATIVE LEADERSHIP" PODCAST - TRANSCRIPT
Episode 173: Keesha Jean-Baptiste
Hi. I’m Charles Day. I work with creative and innovative companies. I coach and advise their leaders to help them maximize their impact and grow their business. To help them succeed where leadership lives - at the intersection of strategy and humanity.
This episode’s guest is Keesha Jean-Baptiste. She is the Senior Vice President, Chief Talent Officer at Hearst Magazines.
During her career, she’s also been the Senior Vice President of Talent, Engagement and Inclusion at the American Association of Advertising Agencies (4A’s) and the Director of Talent and Human Resources at Wieden and Kennedy.
Keesha is brilliant. She is brave. And she is black. And all three of those attributes make her an extraordinarily insightful and powerful advocate for the work that companies need to undertake, if their workforces are truly going to reflect society.
Today, that work falls under the heading of Diversity, Equity and Inclusion or DEI - and there are many businesses that are filled with good intentions and meaningful efforts to improve their DEI performance.
In some cases these efforts lead to tangible and lasting results. In others the work has little impact on the hiring practices or culture of the business.
The difference in whether the work works, frequently comes down to one variable. The leader.
“If the leader is unable to articulate the DE&I agenda, be an active participant in shaping, co-creating, and vocalizing, that's the first sign of a problem. The leader is how everyone views the company.”
I don’t think it’s ever been harder to be a leader. Less is certain and more is expected. There is less to rely on and more to invent. There are fewer shadows to disappear into and many, many more bright lights to bring the truth into sharp relief.
One of the truths is that it’s still disproportionately harder to be a minority in America.
And if that fact is going to change, actually change, we need leaders who are willing to step forward and who know what to do when they find themselves standing in that light.
My conversation with Keesha covers a lot of ground. She talks openly about her own upbringing, about childhood events that shaped her, and about how she sees the challenges and opportunities that leaders face today, as they struggle to come to terms with what’s needed in DEI committed companies.
It’s a conversation that’s filled with practical advice about a sensitive and complex topic.
It’s a conversation that will make you a better leader.
Here’s Keesha Jean-Baptiste
Charles: (02:46)
Keesha, welcome to Fearless. Thanks so much for coming on the show.
Keesha Jean-Baptiste: (02:49)
Thank you for having me. I'm delighted to be here.
Charles: (02:52)
When did creativity first show up in your life? When were you first conscious of creativity?
Keesha Jean-Baptiste: (02:59)
I was conscious of creativity when I was around 14 mostly through dance, and mostly through music. As far as how the art form of music, how it can make you feel, how it could change a moment, a mood, shift people, and just through dance, and letting your body feel the music, being with friends or family, and creating new dances, improvisation, as you let your body feel the music, feel the beats. So it was very… I think, my teen years, my early teen, tween years.
Charles: (03:40)
Where did you grow up?
Keesha Jean-Baptiste: (03:42)
I grew up in multiple places. My father was in the military, and so I am one of those who can't point necessarily to a city and state and say this is where I grew up. My family is from Springfield, Massachusetts. I was born in Okinawa, Japan. I started kindergarten in Kaiserslautern, Germany. And my father eventually, when I was 12, made one last tour of duty to Newport News, Virginia. And I ended up spending most of my childhood, anyway, in that city, and in that state, from 12 years old until I finished college. At this point in my life, though, I've lived in the New York Tri-State area longer than anywhere I had lived when I was a child.
Charles: (04:33)
How do you think all that moving around early on affected you? Do you look back and reflect on that?
Keesha Jean-Baptiste: (04:37)
I do. I often reflect on it in times of transition, whether that's a transition with work, change. I also reflect on it with my children. We moved when my daughter was about two and a half, we moved to Portland, Oregon. And so for me being adaptable, understanding how to connect with people from a variety of cultures, age groups, I actually think I've become more of an observer. I'm naturally an introvert, but I've become more of an observer over time, partially because I've moved around a lot. And so learning a new environment required watching and listening, and understanding what's in the environment.
At a very early age it's not like you pick up on all the cues. You certainly don't when you're very young like I was when I moved around as often as I did. However, going from that experience into high school into college into the workforce, there are things that I can say, "Okay, well, I understand change. I understand how to be adaptable. I understand cultures in a different way." I tend to make space in my life, as well as in my profession, for those moments where I'm introduced to something new. I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that I just grew up doing that often as a child of an officer.
Charles: (06:17)
What do you think had the greatest influence on you growing up in your teenage, early 20s years?
Keesha Jean-Baptiste: (06:25)
My mother. By far my mother. My parents both grew up in the same city. They went to high school together, and so I saw just this teenage love. They went to the prom together. I saw this teenage love in their relationship, as a child growing up. And then when I was a teenager, like most teenagers you attach yourself to a parent, or you detach quickly. It's sort of like you can go far, far, far away, but with my mother and I stayed pretty close, especially, in my college years. Speaking to her multiple times a day, staying grounded in as many ways as I was willing to share my strifes, and my social pressure, and the challenges I had with boyfriends. So as much as I was willing to share those things she was willing to give me life lessons. I experienced profound unconditional love from her.
I also experienced something that I began searching for more actively after she passed away, which is self-acceptance. She was the first one to tell me early on, "Keesha, you worry too much. Let it go." She was also the first person who said, "You're working too hard on too many things, you need to take a break. Give yourself a break. Relax." She just saw, as parents can do, they have the power to see these things in us. She saw exactly who I was, and who I would become, and these are things that I still hear ringing in my head as I look back, or I face a similar challenge. I can hear my mother saying, "Keesha, you worry too much. Take a step back. It's time for you to relax."
Charles: (08:19)
Have you been able to do that?
Keesha Jean-Baptiste: (08:21)
Not fully. I'm a work in progress. I'm a complete work…. I think she'd be proud of me most recently because I'm learning to set boundaries. I think for some people maybe that's easier for them, it's easier said than done. I'm someone who I just like to be at work and doing a lot of things even on a Saturday or Sunday. I'm just busy, but as time goes on, you begin to see the toll it takes. And, also, I've recently had to slow myself down enough to say, "Okay, Keesha, what is it that you like and enjoy in life? Are you doing those things?" The pandemic for many of us, if not all of us, has given us a moment to pause and reflect, and regain our constitution. That's where my strength has come in and just voicing, and I do have boundaries. I just never articulated them.
Charles: (09:20)
When I was four years old my father moved us to South Africa for about nine months as part of his work. And I was conscious for the first time, at a very young age, of the fact that my skin color was different than other people’s. And I was, certainly not by my parents, but by a lot of other people, I was made to feel that that made me superior in some way. And that felt so completely unnatural, and remains unnatural I'm thankful to say to this day. How conscious were you made of your skin color growing up?
Keesha Jean-Baptiste: (09:55)
Very. I don't exactly know when it started. I have some distinct memories that I can recall and look back on and just say… because I always knew I was black. I mean, it just wasn't a question of my culture, identity, race. I always knew that, but being black and what does it mean is really what helped, I think, develop my consciousness very early on as far as race relations and inequity and racism. So one story that comes to mind…. Actually, when we lived in Germany, we moved there, I was about three to six years old, we were there. We lived with a German family. It was a really wonderful experience. They took us in. And there was an Olympic ceremony that was happening and we went with them there. This family, though, was very conscious of the fact that we were a black family in their home in Germany, even though it was in military surroundings with a lot of black, brown, and white people from all over the world, this family was very conscious of what it meant to protect us.
And while I was very young, and it's not like I understood all the dialogue, my mother and my father were having these conversations with the adults of this family that was hosting us. My brother has memories that are a little different and a bit more sharp than mine about racism, but they protected us. They welcomed us, and they wanted to look after us so that we could enjoy the experience we were there for. So that's a memory that was very early on in my childhood. And then I have some that are polar opposite in terms of racism and racist acts toward me when I was in elementary school.
Charles: (12:03)
And do those stay with you today? Obviously, they have formed who you are, but are you conscious of those experiences in terms of how you show up today?
Keesha Jean-Baptiste: (12:12)
The last 10 years I've become more conscious, and part of that is because, when I had children… so my daughter is 12 and a half, my son is six. When you have children you begin to naturally connect the earlier parts of your life, your childhood, the things that you recall that were wonderful, and the things that you recall that weren't. And as a parent of two black children my racial consciousness brought me to my knees and the sense that I didn't want my children to experience anything that was like that, and I had to decide for myself what would happen if? How would I respond when? Because I knew it would happen. And so I chose very deliberately, my husband and I, certain environments we would go in and not with our children I’ve chosen very deliberately, and intentionally, books that we'd read, movies we'd watch, and ways that we would explain things.
I've chosen very deliberately to talk about hate, talk about prejudice, and talk about the acts of violence that can come and manifest from that. Some people think having those discussions too early on is, "Oh, my God, what are you doing? Why would you have those conversations?" But when you're black, and growing up really anywhere in the world, but certainly in America, those conversations are a matter of life and death. And I want my children to be allies and advocates for what's right, and what justice means. I also want them to understand how to be if they're a bystander in a situation that they may not recognize right on as something that could be escalated, and perhaps violent, but when you're a bystander, as well, the role and responsibility you have to share to talk to an adult about the things that you're seeing. So required skill building…. I think a lot maybe black and brown, maybe women I don't know, can identify with building those skills very early because it's a matter of survival and coping. And, ultimately, also dealing with trauma.
Charles: (14:36)
You told me a story once of, I think when you were a teenager, and you had a girlfriend who was white, and you went to spend the night with her, I think. And there was a threat made against you by a friend of her brother's. Is that right? Am I remembering that correctly?
Keesha Jean-Baptiste: (14:52)
You are remembering correctly. I was actually in first grade.
Charles: (14:57)
Wow.
Keesha Jean-Baptiste: (14:58)
Yes, you're absolutely remembering it correctly. And I am willing to share. I was in first grade, and at this point we lived in Philadelphia. We were stationed on the military base there, and all of the kids were zoned into schools that were outside of the base, and my school was in South Philly. My best friend and I were best friends at school, and then you had different neighborhood best friends, of course. Her best friend in her neighborhood that she'd grown up with, again, we were just first grade, but they'd known each other since preschool, that best friend was having a birthday party, and made it a point to let me know that I was not invited. And not only did she make it a point to let me know that I was not invited, she let me know why. And the why is really what stood out, and she said, she used the N word repeatedly. And she let me know that her brothers kill N's. They have machetes, and I'm not allowed to come over.
So this friend, my best friend was her best friend, right? But I was a new friend in the mix. I had just arrived at this school for first grade. All you want to do is have friends and play, and so…. It wasn't a surprise to me that those comments were made. I don't remember telling my parents about it at all. It's possible that I did. I let it go, but this young girl made a habit of calling me the N word pretty regularly. I was like, "Okay, well, I won't go to her party." I mean, clearly I'm not going to go to her party, but the mutual best friend of ours, and I, we just got on well. And so separate from that party, my primary best friend, she wanted me to spend the night at her house which would have been, I think, my first sleepover ever. And so our mothers got together to talk about it.
I can only imagine, because my mom wanted to meet her mother in person, I can only imagine the dialogue. And as an adult now I can imagine the dialogue. But I do recall my mom saying, "You can go,” and that Mrs. Baylow would make it very safe for me. That she'll pick me up the next day, and I have nothing to worry about. So I did, I had a great time, but I reflect back on this because, again, as a parent, and I think about my children, and the things that they have experienced in their life, at six years old, there's nothing to my knowledge that they've experienced that is that traumatic.
Charles: (17:57)
A lot of people I know including myself, I think, would have been traumatized for life by that experience. How were you able, do you think, to move past that? How do you think you were able to either accept that, or minimize it so that it didn't actually just fundamentally define who you were going forward, because I think it would be easy for a lot of people to decide to learn to hate, on the basis of having been treated like that.
Keesha Jean-Baptiste: (18:23)
That's a great question. I mean, our family… when we were with our grandparents, our aunts and uncles, our cousins, and certainly just at home on a regular day, racism wasn't a new thing. I didn't see it all the time with family members, but I heard about stories pretty regularly. My parents coming home from work, there was always something that happened, so it didn't stand out to me, which is sad to say, certainly, but it never stood out to me.
Like I said, I don't recall even talking to my mom or my dad, or my brother about, “Hey, this is what happened, and I'm nervous about it.” My brother had stories coming home from being chased because he went to high school in South Philly. So it was just a daily thing where we had to unpack it together. And one of the things my dad, especially my dad, he's just like, "This is how it is, so what you do is you just keep going, and you know where you can go, and you know where you can't." So we just accepted a life that had those boundaries built in, but it just wasn't a foreign concept to me because that's how everyone in my family lived.
Charles: (19:45)
Are you conscious of that today? Are you conscious of living with those kinds of restrictions today?
Keesha Jean-Baptiste: (19:49)
Absolutely. Absolutely.
Charles: (19:52)
Yeah. I imagine. It's just extraordinary. I mean, I'm a privileged white man by every definition of the word. I interviewed a man called Ian Davis last year who's a black former agency producer who talked about some of the microaggressions in his case that he'd experienced on the agency side. I asked him a question then, “Explain to me all the ways in which my life is different on a day to day basis than yours.” He said, "We just don't have enough time for me to explain that." And I'm increasingly conscious, I think, of how vastly different your experiences, compared to the choices I'm able to make, and the tragedy that I think that that reflects about modern society. Why do you think you decided to go into the talent human resource world? What made you choose that part professionally?
Keesha Jean-Baptiste: (20:41)
I chose it after a mentor of mine, who I adore and respect and honor to this day. Her name is Judy Jackson. She actually said it to me. She was trying to convince me to move into HR years before this, but in 2005 I happened to be at Essence Magazine. I was a business development director. I worked on a big project for about 10 months. One of the projects, anyway, that they hired me to focus on, and I was just burnt out. And I had an honest conversation with Judy as a mentor to say, "What do I do?" And she brought up the idea, again, that I should be in talent. So I didn't listen, initially. I was like, "This is crazy. Why would I do that, Judy? I don't even know what it is. I have student loans." Actually, I remember saying this to her, "I have student loans for this Master's degree in marketing, and I'm a marketer."
And she shared with me how these skills, my way of thinking, and my skillset, is transferrable. We got off the phone after this mentor chat. My mom was living at the time. I was married, no children. I called the two most important people in my life that I always go to for advice, my mom and my husband. Their reaction was exactly the same. Without missing a beat they're like, "Of course, you should do that." I thought they were crazy. I was like, "Did Judy call you? What is going on?”
So I spent some time on the idea of changing careers over a weekend, and I decided to make the change. It was initially really challenging for me to understand how to engage in this talent space because there are things that are unplanned always, and then there are a set of strategic agenda items, and projects, and initiatives that you're working on, but my first week was really funny because as a marketer I'm like, "Where are the projects? Where's the plan? Where are the meetings?" And so they said, "Just wait." I'm like, "Wait for what? I don't understand. What am I waiting for?"
And the general manager of the office at the time he was just like, "Just wait. It's coming." And the it was the people. I'm like, "Oh." So the people come, you then understand a set of needs, interest, issues that are connected to the people, and you devise a plan from there. So the end of my first week was… I had a feeling that I will take to my grave. It's just a remarkable feeling when you are doing work that brings you such deep satisfaction and purpose. And this was 2005. I had worked at that point for about, I don't know what, eight, nine years. It was the first time in my career that I could leave work on a Friday night, and say, "Oh, my God, I did it."
Charles: (23:54)
What was the difference you thought you were making? What was the impact you thought you were having?
Keesha Jean-Baptiste: (23:59)
It was actually about connection. When I think back, there was a connection to something that would bring a meaningful solution, or idea to something that people were experiencing. It's like, issues resolution, yes. We probably all solve issues. So many issues in a day. But what I found is when I'm connected to people and resolving issues that are meaningful to people, to get them in a place of being centered in who they are, what they bring, and how that can make them thrive, or to make a different decision in order to thrive, that felt very meaningful for me.
Charles: (24:48)
What do you think gets in the way of that?
Keesha Jean-Baptiste: (24:53)
That's a big question, Charles. Gosh. That's a really big question. There are a lot of things that get in the way. I mean, if we start just with the person, right? There's a degree to which you can be attached, or detached from what you're saying, who you are, how you behave, how those behaviors lead to decision-making, and how those decisions lead to interactions with others, so it really starts with the person. We use the phrase ‘self-awareness’ often. Sometimes, yes, there's self-awareness. There's self-actualization. But more than what I notice with leaders and people is something quite different from that, which is empathy.
So, can I put myself in the other person's shoes and understand what is happening around me? What is happening to them? The impact my actions or decision-making, again, all those things, have on an individual level, on a group, and then perhaps on an organizational level. So I think the biggest thing my experience… and this is how we are as humans, right? You have to get to a place where you're comfortable recognizing yourself, but, also, have… it's like the rear-view mirror, the peripheral view to really look out from yourself into others, and there's so much more than that, but that's the first thing I would say that gets in the way.
Charles: (26:29)
Can you be a successful leader these days of innovative creatively-driven businesses without bringing empathy to the table?
Keesha Jean-Baptiste: (26:37)
It depends on how you define success. I would say that the definition of success, society and people, there's a rallying cry for us to redefine success. So certainly many leaders over the years have been successful financially if that's our gauge, if that's our metric, right? Financially have achieved what business needs to achieve from that end. Maybe they've launched products that are well-known and renowned without having that view. I think when you're talking about sustainable leadership, when you're talking about leaders that can excel in today's climate, I don't think that you can get away with not bringing empathy into the mix. I believe that people across generations are saying, "No. No more. We're not detached." The people we are at home and work, our values and our moral compass, our way of thinking, intellect, EQ, that all these things are connected now, and are expanding our definition of success.
Charles: (27:52)
So your life has been lived through the lens of diversity, equity and inclusion, right? I mean, you're a walking, living, breathing example of somebody for who those are fundamental issues every moment of every day of your life, both personally and professionally, as you talked about. Businesses have talked about it for a long time. How do you feel today about the current emphasis on DEI? And do you think that the steps that businesses are taking are actually going to yield meaningful change?
Keesha Jean-Baptiste: (28:27)
That's also a very big question. I'll start with this. I am enjoying, in some part as a spectator, watching the world recognize the systemic issues that have been in society for a long time. I think that there is a part of this process we're going through where history is repeating itself, so you have that pattern. At the same time you have another pattern which I do believe should produce positive outcomes, which is we are learning our history. We are learning our history. We are learning the things that have taken place centuries ago even up to present moment. And so there's a reconciliation of all those things.
Do I think it's lasting? I'm skeptical because there is often an event that draws attention, and the need for a conversation, or a need for action, and those people who have been pulled in based on an event, I'm wondering if those people are as vocal when the events aren't happening, and the events are, let's call it behind us, right? And so in the day-to-day, how many people are actually… you said, for me, I live my life this way. I was born a black woman. It's the body I'm in, and so I walk with this mindset. How many of us who have now become more aware are actually living and changing and altering the way we live our life? How many of us have actually expanded our social networks? The groups of friends we're around? Stepped into other neighborhoods, and, again, put the empathy for others to work daily? So I look at that as a marker.
I think that companies will continue to face this challenge, which is, people are watching. Your employees are watching. Your stakeholders are watching and monitoring. And so are we going to be accountable as leaders in our own companies to the people who are watching? What does accountability really look like when you come out of alignment, and your actions aren't congruent with what you said you would do? I mean, I think that all these things are just being recycled, in a way, to call attention to longstanding issues in society. So I'm skeptical because I've not seen it. I'm skeptical because my father tells me his stories and just said, "No, this is a big change, but it's not done yet." What's being said when you're not in the room? What's being said when you're not talking to your children's teachers? What's being said when your kids are on the playground, and you have a group of friends who want to play, and a group of friends who don't?
I'm really skeptical, but it's not going to stop me from doing the work that I do. It's not going to stop. That skepticism is only making me more focused, in the work, in my profession, in bringing forward solutions in my profession. It's also giving me… I would say this, my skepticism is also leading to another thing, which is boundaries. And so how do you make a choice as to whose team you're on? Whose team you want to be on? The group of friends you're with? A church you join? A club you join? A company you work for? And so I have boundaries. And I think many of us who have either… whether you're recently coming into awareness of these issues, or you've long known and have lived by this, our boundaries are going to shape a new America. That's my sense, but what is it going to take to get there? Hopefully, not more deaths, or emotional baggage. There is a term called racial trauma, which is sort of an everyday form of PTSD. So if it means that we have to go through more of that for a better outcome, that's the work we have to do.
Charles: (32:54)
One of the aspects of the increased focus on DEI is the number of times we can now see a headline online about how company A, brand B has hired a Head of Diversity, or Inclusion, or DEI. And when you click on the link, the picture that almost always looks back at you is a person of minority, predominantly black, and most often a woman. I can't imagine that black professionals all aspire to be heads of DEI. I'm sure that there are many, many, many who would like to be the CEO, or the CMO, or the CCO, or the CSO, or the CTO, or any other member of the C-suite. Do you think that the predominance of hiring of minorities, predominantly black and predominately women, is because those people are the ones who are best suited in this moment to helping to solve the problem, or do you think that's because the optics of that look like the companies are actually really trying?
Keesha Jean-Baptiste: (33:58)
That's an insightful question. I think it's probably both. I do believe, and I'm not a CDO, a Chief Diversity Officer by trade, but I have several friends who are, and have long been in the profession, and as a Chief Talent Officer with CHROs, or CDOs there's a kinship. The reason I said it's probably both, just like my story here. I've grown up. I've become fluent in navigating between these worlds. I understand to an extent that my lived experience has offered me a way to articulate the problems, to see, to have a different vantage point maybe than others, maybe than yours. We could be looking at the same street out of two different windows, but we're looking down at the same street, let's just say. We're watching the parade, let's say. My vantage point will give me a different set of observations probably than yours. And so, to an extent, because we've had that as our lived experience as black women, we can offer it, so that's one aspect.
I think the other aspect is a cultural one, which is we are unafraid. It's just a natural vernacular to step out in front, and to tackle these issues. The other piece is that, and I know I've said this with many black, brown, LGBTQ professionals in this space is, if it's not me than who? So your purpose shifts. And there are several people who've come out of, let's call it, the business line, to come into these spaces as CDO because,
if not me than who? And there's unfinished business. I'm being tapped anyway. This is my side hobby, my side hustle, so there's that.
The other dynamic is what I would refer to as window dressing, and there is absolutely a thing around what should the person in that world look like? The optics of that as CDO, and the companies who are in strife trying to understand where to go. There may be that desire to hire this person of color. I would say generally speaking when we're talking about diversity, at least what I have found, is most people are saying they're looking for black and brown, or more specifically more black people. And so there's a discomfort with really calling it what it is. And so for offering the window dressing, sometimes those companies are in that space. They're uncomfortable calling it what it is, and they want leadership that is black, or leadership that is brown.
And so I don't think that that's a sustainable strategy. I often see that those CDOs who come in are burnt out quickly. There isn't a recognition that you're dealing with… as somebody who lives in that experience all the time, you're compounding the trauma. And there is a real craft to DE&I work that can sometimes get watered down. But for those who are doing it as CDOs, and there are many of them across industries, they're bringing the craft and the practice forward in a way that is beyond racial diversity, but is really very intersectional and also systemic. Usually those are individuals who are working on systemic instructional issues for their companies.
Charles: (37:53)
So if these are the right people, and if the casting is correct for all the reasons you've just described, what does the business have to do to maximize the chances that they can be successful from a structural standpoint, from a reporting standpoint, from a funding standpoint, from a messaging standpoint? How do those companies make sure? How do all companies make sure that if you're going to bring in the right person, put them in a position where they can actually succeed, set them up for success?
Keesha Jean-Baptiste: (38:23)
I think the areas you just referenced, right? There is certainly funding and recognizing that there is a need for a business plan around DE&I that aligns with the strategic goals of the business. I've said to some, as you're going in, being able to assess where are you now? What is the three year, five year outlook? And how are you going to come together to measure those things? Measure them from both a qualitative, and a quantitative standpoint. One thing that I think is really key, aside from some of the things I just mentioned, is the leader, and the leadership team. And so if the leader is unable to articulate the DE&I agenda, be an active participant in shaping, co-creating, and vocalizing, that's the first sign of a problem. The leader is how everyone views the company. And the leadership, whether it's also stakeholders, some sort of a board doing the same thing. And so the things that I think need to be done are all inward first.
The second thing is the ability to listen and understand what you're hearing. And so mostly this would be mostly like sort of inbound listening. And there are stakeholders to listen to, and understand, where are there inequities? How do they show up in our environment? It's a guarantee that people are experiencing microaggressions, so as a leader, and a leadership team, and a DE&I practitioner coming in, those microaggressions aren't disconnected.
Those microaggressions have to be talked about, and acknowledged, and used as examples to begin changing behavior in the same breath that you're saying, "We want to hire more. We want to look at our supplier chain. We want to invest more in training and development for these populations." The things that block the elevation of people of color and people of difference are truly the micro insults, the microaggressions. All of those things are part of the daily experience. And so to the extent that a leader and the leadership team can really get their head around that, I think you have the opportunity to propel your agenda, but the structural things in the environment have to shift.
The last thing I'll say on this is that it's often… I think that the dialogue in corporate America around DE&I has been productive, on some level really productive. And another level I see a gap which is that our belief system and our mindset guide our behaviors, so I don't see a lot of conversation connecting, what is it in our belief system that has shaped the way we think about ourselves and others that may be creating this dysfunction and discord in a workplace, and on a team? The behavioral piece for me is the thing that I haven't seen enough change in, and we don't reward people. On the positive for that, I can certainly follow a list of ‘do this, don't do that’. It's harder to gauge a belief system, but as a point of growth for any one of us I've grown in my own consciousness about several areas of difference.
I'm sure you have, Charles, as well. Are we rewarding and recognizing that growth? Are we only operating in a punitive way to say, "Oh, my God, you committed a major… there's a harassment case here." And so we're punitive. And I would like to see a little bit more on the other end. Allies and advocates being championed. Allies and advocates in their behaviors and their stories being amplified, instead of the punitive is what makes the headline. The punitive is what drives us into crisis. The punitive is what drives us to say, "You're out. Let me get a new one in." And, therefore, we might be performative in that action of getting a new someone in because we want the new person that comes in to resemble something that looks like we've diversified. there's an art and a science, I guess, is what it boils down to for me, to this space and the practice of DE&I.
Charles: (43:22)
I've been talking quite a lot about trust on the podcast recently because I think I'm becoming more and more conscious of the importance of trust as a foundation for businesses for whom unlocking innovation and creative thinking is critical to their success, and if you don't have trust, I think you have very little chance of really unlocking those two attributes, or those two skills in a sustainable way. From your standpoint, from your perspective, what do you think is essential for an organization to engender trust? What are the conditions that are essential for an organization to engender trust?
Keesha Jean-Baptiste: (43:57)
Well, we talk a lot in general in business about transparency. And I would go one deeper and broader, which is honesty. Being brave and respectful, of course, respectful enough to tell the truth. And the truth is you see it, but the truth meaning your honest feelings, your honest thought. I think that there's something missing in… maybe it's adulting I'm not sure, where sometimes we just don't know how to tell the truth. You know how kids are so open and they will say what they see. It's an honest reflection for them. I've said jokingly maybe this is adulting, because as you grow and you get older, I think we can sometimes get far away from our own truth. And, therefore, the things we say may sound amazing, but they're not honest. It might not be your actual honest… your original thought, one, or an honest truth.
The reason I bring this up is because when we talk about trust, it's about our ability to connect. You and I, Charles and Keesha, are we connecting? And connection is, how much of myself am I bringing forward in an authentic way, in an honest way? How much room am I giving you, Charles, to bring yourself forward, your thoughts, the same way? And that's a foundation for trust. That's human to human. And then as you get into ideating and building and conversation around vision, we recognize that our vantage point is different, but I'm going to trust that the thing that you're saying and the idea that you have, that we're connected enough that I know you're going to listen. I know that you're going to give a productive and constructive response back even if the idea is wrong in your mind, or needs to be altered, but I'm willing to step forward and listen, and to take in what you're offering.
So if you don't have this fundamental human to human connection through a leader, and that's why I'm not using the word transparency because that's a very different set of behaviors. Honest discourse, honest reflection of self and ideas and of build, I think you lose a lot and we jump to trust, but guess what? Really what happens is conflict is more present. Conflict being more present leads to other behaviors that get you far away from building trust, because you begin to hide. You begin to alter a message. You begin to shape and change the way that you behave to give space to the other.
So those are things that I see, and the dynamics of power and status always present in that, so if the leader is not displaying these behaviors, if the leader is not vulnerable and open and being honest as well, and showing character, it's really hard to have a foundation of trust. What you'll end up getting often is acceptance of the hierarchy, and how to work within it, based on what's accepted in the culture, for the leadership and the group, rather than what is maybe necessary for a business and a team to move forward.
And so I've been in a couple of environments highly creative, more analytical, and I would say one thing that creative people don't have a problem with is being honest, because it's their art form that usually calls them into this space of protecting. They're usually precious about an idea, right? And are very honest and authentic about that, where it comes from, how it manifests. And then you get into dialogue that's very different because it's about the idea, but I found in creative environments, for the most part, the way people are showing up is a little more authentic than a corporate analytical environment because you're not talking about ideas and people. It's not abstract, and the abstract thinker is often the outsider because the truth is only revealed through data, which we know is not the full reflection of any truth, or anything. And so, I mean, it's a long way of saying to you that trust is a very personal thing to reach with one another, and trust also starts with how much we're willing to be vulnerable with ourselves, to ourselves, and honest with one another.
Charles: (49:14)
That's such a great definition, such a great expression. How do we make progress through the lens of DEI? How do we build organizations whose talent is actually reflective of society, in terms of the composition of it?
Keesha Jean-Baptiste: (49:32)
I'll give you one starting place. Look at the homogeneity of the leadership team, and work on succession plans that allow you to bring in multiple perspectives that reflect society. That I think is an absolute must if you're going to then see the progress throughout the business, and with hiring more differences across teams. I think a hard look at homogeneity, particularly at the leadership level, is a start.
Charles: (50:08)
How do you lead?
Keesha Jean-Baptiste: (50:11)
Well, I lead with this one thing in mind which is that I accept that everyone is shaped differently. I love it that everyone has a superpower, which means you have something to give and lend to a team. That I can accept as a leader your weaknesses, because I can construct a team and put you around others that will elevate your superpowers rather than magnifying an area of weakness. I also lead with purpose and vision. I know where I'm going. I know where I want to go. It's often a couple of years out if not more, so I tend to lead with my eye on the long gain, and not what's right here in front of us today as perhaps a problem, or opportunity. I lead with foresight for the future.
Charles: (51:09)
And what are you afraid of?
Keesha Jean-Baptiste: (51:12)
Well, okay, super vulnerable here too. I never want to disappoint people. It's a very paternalistic thing, I guess, to say. I don't want to disappoint people, my children, my co-workers, my team, my peers, my boss. It's a very personal thing for me, and I struggle with that.
Charles: (51:44)
I want to thank you for sharing so openly today. You have been an inspiration to so many of us for so long, and I think you are extraordinarily insightful and articulate about the most challenging issues of our time, when it comes to building successful creative, innovative businesses, and your willingness to come on, and to be this open, and this insightful, I think, is just such a gift to all of us, so thank you.
Keesha Jean-Baptiste: (52:09)
Thank you, Charles. Thank you. I appreciate being invited to this space with you, and it felt really good to have the conversation today.
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