“The Focused Leader”
Marcel Marcondes is the U.S. Chief Marketing Officer for Anheuser-Busch.
He wants to make a difference. He’s clear about what that looks like. And he’s deliberate about bringing others into that journey.
This episode is called, “The Focused Leader”.
Three Takeaways
The desire to make a difference.
Helping others unlock their own potential.
Developing a clearly-defined leadership philosophy.
"FEARLESS CREATIVE LEADERSHIP" PODCAST - TRANSCRIPT
Episode 103: "The Focused Leader" - Marcel Marcondes
Hi. I’m Charles Day. And this is ‘Fearless Creative Leadership’.
Marcel Marcondes is the U.S. Chief Marketing Officer for Anheuser-Busch.
He wants to make a difference. He’s clear about what that looks like. And he’s deliberate about bringing others into that journey.
This episode is called, “The Focused Leader”.
“If you do a few things really right, this is how you really make a difference. If you do a lot of things average, nothing really changes.”
Leadership exposes our weaknesses. It shines a light on our inadequacies.
At least we’re afraid that it does.
Which is why so many leaders spend so much time trying to get better at the things they’re bad at.
Which saps their confidence. Diverts their attention and dilutes their impact.
What difference are you trying to make. What are you great at? Who can do the rest?
Here’s Marcel Marcondes.
Charles:
Marcel, welcome to Fearless. Thank you so much for joining me today.
Marcel Marcondes:
Thank you, Charles. It's amazing to be here. Thanks for having me today.
Charles:
Let me ask you the question I normally ask most people first up. When did creativity first show up in your life? When were you first conscious that creativity was a thing?
Marcel Marcondes:
That's a very good question. I don't know the answer precisely, but I remember I had a really tough time on deciding what was it that I really wanted to do in my professional life. Then one day I realized that what would really give me satisfaction would be the feeling that I would be making a difference in people's lives somehow, that I would have an impact on the way they behave. Then I started to feel like, "Yeah, this is something that is interesting."
Then I started to pay attention to marketing campaigns, to cool brands, and this is when I felt like, “This is it. This is what really makes people stop and pay attention, creativity. And this is the best vehicle to have an influence on people's behavior. So that's what I want to do.”
Charles:
Was creativity part of your childhood?
Marcel Marcondes:
Not in any special way, so no. I mean I've always paid attention... I've always liked movies. Yeah, I was very passionate about it. Music as well, I was very into music. But I mean the classic things, nothing very special. Yeah, I always paid a lot of attention, actually, to how people reacted to that.
Charles:
How interesting.
Marcel Marcondes:
And this is when I started to feel like, "Ah, cause and consequences. This is what people react to. I like it."
Charles:
Interesting. Where you a risk-taker as a kid?
Marcel Marcondes:
Good question, as well. I used to dream big, that was for sure. I was always the... I remember having this conversation with my friends, some people. I had some friends that wanted to do a lot of things. I was never the one feeling, “I want to do a 150 thing.” I wanted to do five, but very well done, and to really go beyond what one would say is good enough in those five. But instead of having many, a few, but those few like... I used to say that was more like a sniper than somebody carrying a machine gun.
Charles:
Has that always carried through your career? Has that kind of focus always been a part of it?
Marcel Marcondes:
I think so, because I think the most important thing in our careers is to make a difference. This has proven in history already, right? If you do a few things really right, this is how you really make a difference. If you do a lot of things average, nothing really changes.
Charles:
How did you decide what you wanted your first job to be?
Marcel Marcondes:
I had already clear in my mind that I wanted to be connected with brands. Then I went to college and I did marketing and brand communication in college, which is-
Charles:
So you were that clear that early.
Marcel Marcondes:
Yeah, which is not that common in the US.
Charles:
Right.
Marcel Marcondes:
In Brazil, I did it. And then I remember I was in doubt if I wanted to go work for an agency, or if I wanted to be a client. And then I remember at that time I had a girlfriend from college and then we said, "Okay, so I'm the copywriter, you're the art director. Let's put some material together. Let's idea it. Let's create." We use the infrastructure from the college, professional photography and things like these. We had a professor that was amazing in giving us some support. And then we came up with a portfolio of good work that felt like, "Wow, this is awesome. Let's go visit some agencies."
And then I was shocked by the kind of feedback that I got from the creative people at the agencies like, "Man, you should try to do something else." Or, "This is terrible." Or, "Yeah, good, but kid, why don't you try A, B, C, D and E?" And I said, "You know what? I wasn't made for this." I actually have a huge respect for creative people now because they have to be open for feedbacks 24/7. Everybody has an opinion about what they do, right? I felt I'd rather be on the other side of the conversation, me giving the opinions and making the judgements, instead of being exposed to this stuff.
And then I said, "Okay, I'm not going to do the agency work. I'm going to be a client. I'm going to run brands and this is when everything started.
Charles:
Do you think you're creative?
Marcel Marcondes:
I think I am. I think I am creative. I think I have to bring creativity to what I do every day, yes. I think I have, maybe, a good sense of creativity for what I do. I believe I did make the right decision in not going to an agency, trying to be a creative person in an agency. I think the creativity that I have adds value to the work that I do on the brand side, but there are people way more creative than I am in terms of doing advertising.
Charles:
It's a very specific discipline, isn't it?
Marcel Marcondes:
Absolutely.
Charles:
Yeah. And I think it's easier because we do get... I mean there is a history of calling certain kinds of people in businesses as creative people versus not. I think it's one of the things that shifting is, changing the labeling around who's creative and who's not. Because, as I think this company demonstrates, the best companies in the world are creative from every area. They unlock creativity from throughout the organization.
Marcel Marcondes:
Yeah, and I also... As I started my career, I started to fall in love with strategy as well. So, nowadays, I'm a big believer that creativity needs to have a direction. I remember one campaign from Pirelli, the Italian tire company. It was so simple but it was so meaningful to me, was all about a tire saying, "Power is nothing without control." So for me, that's the thing, unless you really know the reasons behind what you're doing and what's your intention, what's the purpose of what you're doing, you can even entertain people using some creativity, but it's not going to get anywhere.
So, this is why I love what I do, because I feel like I have the privilege of connecting strategy to creativity and this is when magic really happens. Otherwise, it's entertainment. And entertainment is a different thing. We're here to drive a business.
Charles:
Well, to your point, creativity is such a powerful force, isn't it? That if it's not targeted and directed, it can have all kinds of unintended consequences, or, in fact, not have the kind of consequence you wanted to have at all.
Marcel Marcondes:
Exactly. Especially nowadays with social media, right? It's so interesting to pay attention to brands jumping into conversations. And sometimes you have super successful examples and sometimes you have some disasters. We talk a lot about this here in our routines every day because, of course, we have to build brands that are culturally relevant and part of people's conversations. But after seeing a lot of examples, we now have a model that is very simple. It's all about finding one bright spot, which is the intersection between what people are talking about, or care about, and what you stand for.
Because if you do not have that component of what you stand for, you're just jumping into a territory that you don't belong. And this is when the disaster examples happen. But if that conversation is somehow connected to what you stand for, then you do have credentials to be part of the conversation. And this is something so simple but is a mistake that is so common in the marketing and advertising world, that this is something that really makes a difference sometimes.
Charles:
I think putting up those guardrails for creativity is fundamental. When you're defining what a company or a brand stands for, how do you do that in a real world way? Because it's easy to come up with a bunch of theoretical things, or, "Wouldn't it be nice for these things?" But when push comes to shove, we're not going to behave that way. I can see that all the time. I'm sure you do too. How do you make sure when you define what a company stands for, that you can actually live through that lens, even in tough times?
Marcel Marcondes:
I have two things that I like to pay attention to. One, and back to the beginning of our conversation, is to have somehow a way to measure or to observe if we're making a difference, if we can influence people's behavior or not. Because I think that when you have a clear purpose, a real reason to exist, it means that you have something to add to people, so that they can do something a little bit different. So that is one thing.
And the second thing, in terms of how people react to what we do, I've been paying a lot of attention to what I'm now calling the “thank you effect”. Because we have many KPIs, trying to measure engagement, right, if somebody shares our content, if they reply to our content. But if you really want to be meaningful to people, like when somebody does something for you, what do you say? "Wow, he made a difference. Thank you." So it's impressive. You and I are talking about Budweiser's Dwayne Wade content before we started recording the conversation. And that was something impressive. The amount of people that responded to Budweiser saying, "Thank you for reminding me that I am human and that I can, and should, behave differently." This is when you feel like we hit a nerve.
Charles:
Yeah, and that's a very difficult thing to do at scale, in a large business, right?
Marcel Marcondes:
Yes.
Charles:
To create that kind of intimacy. You've been at the architect of a massive shift in the marketing capabilities here. How have you gone about that? How do you unlock creativity here in the AB Marketing Group?
Marcel Marcondes:
I think that the scale conversation is directly connected to consistency. Because not necessarily you're going to hit the whole country with the first piece of content, or at once. Or, you can even do it once, if you really hit a home run, but then if you don't have the second, the third and the fourth ones, then it gets lost and people forget about it, they'll pay attention to something else. So, consistency is extremely important for anybody to drive scale the right way.
And so it's very common in our world, as well, to have people changing what brands stand for, changing brand positions and changing campaigns, just because you have a new brand manager. It's human behavior, right? Everybody wants to add a personal touch into things. So we need to behave here, and that's something that I pay a lot of attention to as a guardian of what the brands stand for; once we lock it, this is it. And we should have a very serious reason to change it, otherwise you don't build anything, you just become a Frankenstein behaving on erratic ways.
Charles:
Where did you learn that?
Marcel Marcondes:
I learned that everywhere in my career, to be really honest, and I learnt that from my own mistakes as well. Many times I felt like, "Okay. I need to bring my personal touch to this." And I felt on my own skin the consequences of changing things without having a need. I also saw a lot of amazing examples when you have consistent work. For example, Michelob Ultra. It's the fastest growing brand in the US for the last four years in the beer industry. It's amazing. But Michelob Ultra started in 2002, and if you see the brand positioning, it's the same. It's not something that I created. The job that we're doing here now is to make sure that Michelob Ultra talks about the same thing, but in a way that is updated to the current state of society. Because health and wellness evolves, so Michelob Ultra needs to evolve together, from a communication's perspective, also from an innovation perspective. So now we launch with Michelob Ultra Organic. We're now on pilot with Michelob Ultra Gluten-Free. So we're evolving together with the consumers.
But one of the key reasons when people ask, "Oh, that's amazing... " By the way, not only Michelob Ultra is growing, but it's now the second biggest beer brand in the US in dollar sales already, since May. It's really impressive. So what's the secret behind it? The number one thing that I always answer is, consistency. It's not, "This is what we did last year." No, it's the fact that we've been protecting what this brand stands for, for over a decade. And this is so hard. We talk a lot about this internally to use it as an example for others.
Charles:
It's a fascinating conversation actually, because the tension between enabling an environment in which creative and innovative thinking can thrive, and balancing that with the need to be consistent and not just keep changing stuff for the sake of change, to your point, is a real challenge, right? That's a difficult balance to navigate. How do you go about that from a leadership standpoint?
Marcel Marcondes:
I try to keep things simple. By the way, I think that is one of the hardest things for CMOs to do and it's a vital piece of the CMO's job description, to transform complex things into simple things. This is one of those for me. It's all about the difference between changing versus evolving. So once you stand for something that is powerful and meaningful to people, as we just spoke, don't change it unless you have a very serious reason for that.
However, it doesn't mean that you should not touch it. And this is when usually people make some confusions. So we have to evolve, but it doesn't mean that we have to change. Why? Because people evolve, society evolves, so what we stand for, the manifestation, the expression of what our brands stand for, has to evolve together with society. That is one of the most important things that marketers should do.
Charles:
So, tell me the journey that brought you to where you are today. You tried advertising copywriting, decided that wasn't for you, decided to get involved with brands. What's the journey that brought you from that moment to this?
Marcel Marcondes:
There was a lot of curiosity and a lot of inner energy and inner will, I guess, in trying to test the limits of what it could do or where else I could go. I think these are the two most important things. I say curiosity because, for example, I started my career, really my first real job was as a trainee at Unilever. And then I spent almost eight years working at Unilever doing hair care. So it's all about shampoos. My life for a long time was all about shampoos, right? So I know everything about hair, the different kinds of hair and things like this. And so it's fascinating, but at the same time I felt like, I want to know more. I want to know about other things. I want to know more about people and I want to know about different things.
And this is what drove me to AB, as well. That was one of the elements that made me jump to AB. I think that our category of beer and beverages is a fascinating industry, because you can talk to a lot of different people. You're part of a very special occasion. People have you when they're having a social moment, fun times, and things like this. And so it opened so many opportunities for us to get to know people, to understand their motivations, what they like, what they don't, what they talk about. So curiosity is something that moved me big time.
And then I also think that this ambition, in terms of having a bigger impact on people's lives, this is the other driver that I feel inside of me every day. And I think this is what makes our profession fascinating, because there's no recipe. Nobody can teach you how to build a brand. Every case is a different case, every brand is a different brand, every consumer is a different consumer, every market is a different market. So, it's all about that constant state of investigation that you have on really getting to know your consumer base, understanding their motivations, developing something from a product perspective and from a message perspective that can be meaningful to them, and then you start all over again. And this journey never ends. So I'm always looking for new ways of making a bigger impact on people.
Charles:
Having curiosity, I think, is a really, really fundamental part of leading creativity, you've talked about that obviously, and I hear it in a lot of the people that I talk to in this podcast and in my own work. How do you make sure that when you're hiring people, that they're bringing that to the table, as well? What are you looking for when you're hiring people into an environment like this?
Marcel Marcondes:
I would say, of course, I try to pay attention to a lot of different things. But if I had to tell you the one thing that I pay a lot of attention to, it is, I try to separate the ones that are waiting for somebody else to tell them what to do versus the ones that are really looking for an opportunity to propose something, to figure things out. And that is then the group that I say, "These are the ones that we need here in this." Because, again, in the world as it is today, comfort zone is a place for dead people. It's all about people pushing us and provoking the system, trying to figure out new ways of finding solutions. That is the most important thing that, I think, a new professional needs to have. Everybody needs to have this, but especially for new hires, that's the one thing that I pay attention to.
Charles:
Steve Jobs was once famously quoted as saying that the word that he found most valuable in terms of unlocking creativity in other people was no. That he was going to say no to a lot of... most things in fact. How do you create the constraints within which people who are as curious as you’ve just described, can remain enthusiastic when you must have to say no to a lot of the stuff that they come up with? By definition, it's a very large, very visible, very publicly traded company, there are practical fundamental supply chain issues, there are all kinds of infrastructure issues in place. How do you create the environment in which you can have curious, forward-thinking people remain enthusiastic?
Marcel Marcondes:
I think it's a very good question. I think it is important to say yes many times. I think that's the balance. If somebody takes only nos... It is definitely, extremely important to say no, but we use to say here that we live in a culture of yes, because the environment we try to create here is exactly this environment of people trying to push the boundaries. Usually we talk about things where saying no is easier than saying yes, because, "No, it cannot be done. No, nobody has ever done that before. No, I don't think I can make it." So, actually, I pay much more attention to how to transform a no into a yes-
Charles:
How interesting.
Marcel Marcondes:
... than the other way around.
Charles:
Interesting. You've learned a lot, obviously, about unlocking creativity in complex organizations. What are the other factors, that you've learned, have to be present in order to get creative thinking out into the world?
Marcel Marcondes:
In our life here as marketers, the one thing is to really understand who you're talking to. I always go back to this thing of creativity with a purpose, creativity with a clear strategy behind. You need to know what's the effect you want to create in somebody before you bring your creativity to the table, otherwise it's just entertainment. Entertainment is good, not for my industry, for other industries, right? We need to do things with a purpose. This is why creativity in isolation is interesting, it's sexy, but it's not effective. So this is why it needs to come together with a clear understanding of, what's the people group that you want to talk to? So that you can feel like it's going to be effective creativity to drive behavioral change.
Charles:
So, I'm a huge believer, I'm an advocate of unlocking creativity in a business environment. I don't think there's any more powerful business force in the world than creative thinking. Somebody asked me a few months ago... Somebody who's running a creative business said, "Look, I believe in creativity. I run a creative business. How can you validate for me, how can you prove to me that unlocking creative thinking drives business?" What have you learnt about the value of unlocking creativity in the business environment, in terms of the business impact that it has?
Marcel Marcondes:
I think of maybe two key elements. First one is, especially nowadays, unless you are creative, it's going to be very hard to have people paying attention to you. It doesn't matter how big your budget is, how deep your pockets are, there is a big chance you're going to waste and burn a lot of money if you're not creative, because people are paying attention to ten different things at the same time, 24/7. So, creativity is a must-do thing, to give you the opportunity to start a conversation. It's the beginning of everything, without it, it's lost even before it starts.
And then the second thing is exactly that creativity... Back to the point we just spoke, right? Creativity, it's hard if it's all about creating entertainment. So once you grab people's attention, you need to find a creative way to deliver a meaningful message, something that will make a difference in the way your consumer group behaves, in a way that will make them connect to your brand in a differentiated way. So these things need to work together hand in hand.
Whenever it happens, you see growth. So, in a nutshell, creativity drives business growth because, one, it's the only way for you to get people to pay attention to what you have to offer. And, two, it's the only way for you to build meaningful brands. And I think that the level of fragmentation today, that we see in every industry, is so big, that unless you build meaningful brands, inevitably your product will become a commodity. So, this is how creativity makes a difference in driving a business.
Charles:
What's the relationship between creativity and innovation from your standpoint? We hear both words being banded about, how do they relate to each other?
Marcel Marcondes:
It's a very good point. They're absolutely connected, right, because innovation... It says it all. It's all about bringing something new. And for me, creativity, it's all about bringing something unexpected to people. This is why I think... If you're asking me, "Marcel, which are the two most important pillars that you drive in your business?" I would say creativity and innovation. This is it.
Charles:
And you think they're linked together? Are they-
Marcel Marcondes:
A hundred percent.
Charles:
Interesting.
Marcel Marcondes:
Absolutely.
Charles:
Shifting gears, what's your relationship with fear?
Marcel Marcondes:
Fear?
Charles:
Yeah.
Marcel Marcondes:
I have an intense relationship with fear. Yeah, it's a big friend of mine. I like to have him around all the time, because if I don't have fear closely together with me, it feels like I'm missing something, that what I'm doing is not bold enough, that I'm falling into comfort zone. And then I start to get really concerned. All the best examples of projects we've been running here, the most successful ones were the ones with the highest amount of butterflies in the stomach.
So, yeah, I think fear is a necessary part of what we do. The key thing is to never let fear manage you, because then you play safe and then everything is done. However, fear needs to be always around, otherwise it feels like something is missing.
Charles:
Do you go looking for it?
Marcel Marcondes:
Yes.
Charles:
So, if you're not feeling it you're... What? Looking to people to bring you bigger ideas? I mean, how do you manage it, because I think that's a really powerful reference point. I've heard other people talk about their need to fill it. I'm curious. How do you make sure that it's present every day? How do you engender it in the organization? Because most people push it away like crazy, as you know.
Marcel Marcondes:
It's because, again, if you're doing something, having real expectations that that something can have an impact on people's behavior, there might be some level of risk involved. There will be some people that will not like it. There will be some people pushing back and saying that it's not good. Otherwise, it means that this something that you're thinking about doing, is irrelevant.
I get concerned when we're having a meeting and somebody has an idea or I say, "Guys, why don't we do something like this?" And a hundred percent of the people say, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. Why not? Sure. Obvious." Then I feel like, "I'm missing something." The best decisions are the ones that are not easy to make, where you see a few people saying, "I would not do it. I think it's wrong." Then you feel like, "Okay. There's tension here."
Charles:
How interesting.
Marcel Marcondes:
Otherwise, it's just safe.
Charles:
So you're really looking for that kind of tension-
Marcel Marcondes:
Yes.
Charles:
... in the room.
Marcel Marcondes:
Yes.
Charles:
Too many people are interested and on board with it, you're not that interested in it, because it's too easy? It's too safe?
Marcel Marcondes:
Probably too safe, or like... Yeah, the payback's not going to be that big because probably everybody else will react to that saying, "Yeah, sure." Right?
Charles:
Do you like controversy? I mean, is controversy part of it?
Marcel Marcondes:
Yes, but some level of controversy. Sometimes you jump into a big controversy intentionally then it's okay, like what Nike did... This is probably the biggest example of-
Charles:
Colin Kaepernick.
Marcel Marcondes:
Yeah, exactly. They knew what they were doing. They intentionally got into this. Awesome. Hands down. But whenever that is not an intention or outcome... I think that some level of controversy is always good, to what we just spoke about, but not necessarily getting in to a full controversy.
Charles:
How much risk is too much risk? How do you know when you're pushing the envelope too far?
Marcel Marcondes:
I think you should never risk... I don't know. This is a very good question. But the point is, even before thinking about the risks, you have to think about what is there for you to grab. You need to be confident that the risks that you're taking are manageable to get where you want to get. I think the biggest risk, or the biggest mistake, is when you only have the risk, but you don't have the prize. This is a stupid risk, because there is only the downside. But whenever you feel like there is a big prize, everything is designed to achieve a big prize, then you can deal with risk in a more intelligent way. But if you only see the risk, but you don't see the prize, why do you get into that?
Charles:
You said it before, I know, but outcome and intention is obviously a huge part of your grounding philosophy.
Marcel Marcondes:
Yeah. I think that my role today... And, again, I have the privilege of working a huge portfolio of amazing brands and we have senior people running those brands, so I don't get into the details of things, or I don't tell them how to do their jobs. I pay a lot of attention to doubling down on my questions, just to make sure that they know exactly why they're doing what they're doing. I pay a lot of attention on the reasons behind... Like when somebody comes to present me a campaign, I don't pay a lot of attention, making comments on, "But that line's not that good." Or, "Maybe we can change this." Or execution of things. I pay attention on, "Is this the right thing to do? What's the intention? What's the point of view? What's the outcome? Again, what's the prize?" That is what I pay a lot of attention to.
Charles:
That requires a lot of confidence, right, because a lot of people are micro-managers. A lot of people in running a creative endeavor, do get overly involved in the details. They do take away [inaudible] other people's original thought. Where did you learn the ability to keep all of that at arm's length and be able to maintain a 10,000 foot view?
Marcel Marcondes:
It's all about... Now I'm going to be intentionally simplistic in the answer, because otherwise this can get too complicated. But I always go back to having a plan. It's back to the, "What's the intention?" So everything we do needs to serve for a strategy and for a plan. This is what gives me confidence to move forward. I need to be sure about the reasons for what I'm doing. The big enemy for that is when you have a short-term thinking, which is something that we face every day, in all the companies. We have, in some situations, a big tendency of being short-term driven. And then you just become reactive.
"Things are not doing well. We need to do something immediately." "Let's give it a try." "Why?" "No, just because maybe something can happen if you give an electric shock here." This is when you step into dangerous situations. I think that even when you are in trouble, even when you have a short-term situation, you must have a strategy, a plan. You must know what is it that you're trying to achieve. And when I say what is it that you're trying to achieve, the answer cannot be, "Go back to growth." Of course. We know that, right, but by doing what? What is the job to be done?
We talk every day here about the jobs to be done. What is the job to be done? And then we spend a lot of time on those conversations and once we lock in it and we feel confident about it, we become much more braver to make the calls, because we know what we're doing.
Charles:
Are there times you go home at night and you're filled with doubt about whether you're doing the right thing? What's your general disposition?
Marcel Marcondes:
Yes, I do have those moments for sure. I like to be in peace that I know what I'm doing and I know the reasons that are driving me to make some decisions. I have a lot of butterflies in the stomach on, "Is it going to work?" Right? I feel more of that. Because if I don't have enough certainty on the reasons for making the calls, then I go back the following day, saying, "Guys, we're not ready to move forward yet." But once we know what we're doing, then the butterflies in the stomach are more in the spirit of, "Is it going to work? Yes, or no, and what if."
Charles:
So, you'll listen to those and react to those from time to time.
Marcel Marcondes:
Yes. I really believe that we are in a human business. It's all about connecting brands to humans, so we all need to learn to listen to our internal feelings and things like this, because it matters.
Charles:
As you look back at your career, where there moments that you can say to yourself, "That was really a big risk and I'm glad I took it," or, "That was a big and I shouldn't have taken it, but I've learned from it,"? Do you go back and evaluate risk taking?
Marcel Marcondes:
Oh, yes. Yes, because we are learning every day, right? I think every day, when I come to work, I try to mentalize three things. One, I want to have fun. I want to enjoy being in the office. I want to enjoy doing what I'm doing because there's always a lot of pressure around. There's always a lot of people giving opinions and saying, "This is right. This is wrong. This is intelligent. This is stupid." So I want to manage to have fun in doing what I'm doing.
I want to be very confident, because in our world it's all about making calls, taking decisions and it's not a... There's art and science with what we do, so it's not a hundred percent an equation that you can prove, A plus B equals C and then... right? There's always a bet that we're placing every day. So when I say I need to have fun, I need to be confident about what I'm doing, because also, our job involves convincing people about our visions and bringing people together to our visions.
And the third thing that I try to mentalize every day is, be humble. Be humble. We need to learn every single day. Things are changing so fast nowadays that we need to learn every single day. Every single day. I keep this thing very alive inside of me and that's something we talk about in our teams every single day. By the way, we now have a full team that is called the Learning Culture and Capabilities Team, exactly to make sure that our team will be open minded to learning every single day. There is not a recipe to do what we do. We need to be surrounded by people that can take us to a better place every single day.
Charles:
What's the role of that team?
Marcel Marcondes:
It's exactly to... I used to say that its number one thing is to make sure that our team will start to feel comfortable about being uncomfortable. Exactly because, usually when I talk about capabilities team, it's all about teaching people how to do their jobs. I don't believe in that anymore, exactly because there are no recipes and things are changing every day.
So, the first thing is to make them understand that they have to improve and evolve every single day. Don't believe the, "I've cracked the code for today." Tomorrow there'll be something new. So, open minded, keep improving, keep testing the limits, that's one thing. And then the second thing is exactly to bring tangible means for that to happen. So we're constantly bringing the best of whatever that we identify, people doing brilliant jobs in different industries, with different brands. We bring them in, so that we can learn from them, we can be inspired by them. And then after those sessions, we have some internal sessions, that we call the “So What” sessions. After these inspirations and these learnings, so what?
Charles:
That's great.
Marcel Marcondes:
So what changes now?
Charles:
It's great.
Marcel Marcondes:
So, that we can feel like we are an organization in constant state of improvement and evolution. That is so important.
Charles:
What's the biggest mistake do you think a leader can make when they're running... when they're leading a business that's dependent on creative thinking for its success?
Marcel Marcondes:
There are so many mistakes. So the first one is always the right thing to lose then the sense of purpose and the reasons behind what we're doing. Creativity is a means, it's not an ends. So, I really believe that we need to pay attention to that. And the second classic mistake, especially when you're connected to business that are doing well... This is why it's beautiful to have a big portfolio of brands, you always have brands that are doing well, others that are not and then you always leave a little bit of the different situations. But a big mistake in our world is ego and that feeling of, "I know the answers. I know what works and what doesn't." This is the recipe for disaster, I guess.
Charles:
Which is why curiosity, to your earlier point, comes in.
Marcel Marcondes:
Exactly.
Charles:
It's interesting. How do you lead?
Marcel Marcondes:
I lead, I guess, first by bringing my most genuine and authentic passion and beliefs to the table. I lead by making sure that we all know what we're doing, so that we can be brave enough to take risks. And I lead by incentivizing people to... Once they are emotionally connected to the business, as much as I do as well, and once they know what they're doing, I lead to incentivize to believe to the end, and to make things happen. Instead of waiting for anybody to tell them what to do, even if it's myself.
Charles:
So, self-starters, really important to you?
Marcel Marcondes:
Yes. Something that gives me a huge pleasure is when I see something amazing that somebody presents to me from my team, that I was totally unaware of. I don't have a pleasure of saying, "I was there since the beginning. If I was not there, this idea would never see the light of the day." I feel even better when I was not involved because this is when I feel like this environment is really becoming good. It's in the air and people are really behaving like this automatically. And this is for me the ultimate win.
Charles:
And last question for you. What are you afraid of?
Marcel Marcondes:
What am I afraid of? Deep question, as well. Sometimes I feel anxious when I see something that I believe and I know that there's a lot of risks for that idea to not become a reality, when there's something like... we feel like, “Yeah, it feels right,” but it's not going to be easy to bring it to life or it goes against some principles that we're not going to be able to overcome. Usually I'm afraid of seeing good, powerful ideas that don't become a reality.
Charles:
I wrap every episode with three themes that I've heard, three takeaways that I think contribute to your success. So, let me throw these at you and you can tell me. One is, as you've said a number of different times, a number of ways, you really want to make a difference. You want to make a difference to the lives of people and I think that anchors and grounds everything you do and the way you get up in the morning and the way you go about doing what you do.
Two is, I think you have a real interest in helping people to unlock their own potential, so it's not just making a difference in the lives of consumers but the people around. You want them to be able to go as far as they possibly can.
And I think the thing that brings all of that together, third, is that you have a really clearly defined leadership philosophy. I mean, it's rare, in my experience, in these conversations, in my work, to find somebody who is as clear and as consistent about the way they go about doing what they do as you have been today. I think it's really powerful and it's a very good lesson for people listening to this to say, "Having a clear leadership philosophy, being clear about who you are and how you show up and how you make decisions and how you judge decisions in an environment in which risk has to be present all the time otherwise you're not unlocking creativity, is fundamental to how you go about doing what you do.”
How do those resonate with you?
Marcel Marcondes:
Wow. I really appreciate the words. I feel more encouraged now to keep moving. This is what gives me the energy to come to the office every day. I think we all need to find our internal motivations, what really makes us feel like, "Yeah, it's worth it," because it's never easy. I really appreciate your feedback and your comments. It really encourages me to move forward. And it's all about, "Okay. Let's keep learning. Let's keep getting things done and taking some risks and being meaningful to people."
Charles:
Marcel, thank you so much for joining me today. What a great conversation.
Marcel Marcondes:
Was amazing. Thank you so much.
