"The Open Leader"
This week, my conversation with Cheryl Abel-Hodges, the Group President of Calvin Klein North America and The Underwear Group. Cheryl welcomes debate and exploration and new ways of looking at things. She welcomes it whether the conversation is about her business or about her leadership. So, this episode is called, "The Open Leader." I was struck by Cheryl’s clarity, her openness and her generosity. And by the environment she creates for real give and take. I’m curious what you think.
Three Takeaways
- The confidence to declare your intention.
- The willingness to accept mistakes, learn form them and move on.
- The ability to take risks, because you are clear about what you hope to learn.
"FEARLESS CREATIVE LEADERSHIP" PODCAST - TRANSCRIPT
Episode 57: "The Open Leader" Cheryl Abel-Hodges
I’m Charles Day and this is Fearless!!
This week, my conversation with Cheryl Abel-Hodges. Cheryl is Group President of Calvin Klein.
Cheryl welcomes debate and exploration and new ways of looking at things. She welcomes it whether the conversation is about her business or about her leadership.
So, this episode is called:
The Open Leader
“But I think for me the clarity came when I became more comfortable with who I am. And it's a lot of work. It's a lot of work professionally, it's a lot of work personally. You know, I like the process of discovery. I'm self-aware so I like feedback. I like people to tell me what works, what doesn't. But you have to be able to use it to a benefit.”
I gave some feedback to a friend of mine this morning.
When I do that, I’m always conscious of two things. What I say and how I say it.
The question of when I say it is important too, but sometimes that choice gets taken out of your hands.
In my work, it’s critical to be sensitive to how you give advice. But no matter how skilled you are in any given situation, the other variable on whether the advice helps, is the ability of the person on the other side of the conversation to hear it.
This morning’s conversation was made easier, because the person in question had called to ask for help.
Still, what I suggested to her wasn’t easy to hear. Her response? She instantly, without hesitation or qualification, said, ‘ thank you for that. I needed to hear it.’
That’s not an easy mindset to develop. All of us are afraid of something. Or many things. We all have our own journeys.
Leadership is about setting a vision and attracting people towards that future.
From time to time, you’ll make mistakes. If you don’t, you’re not leading. You’re just playing by the old rules and pretty soon no one will be following.
You’ll be a better leader, if you make it easier for people to help you along the way. You’ll find you’re happier too.
So, how easy is it for people to tell you what you need to hear.
And when they do, what’s your response?
Creativity demands we celebrate uncertainty, encourage exploration and welcome opposing points of view.
I was struck by Cheryl’s clarity, her openness and her generosity. And by the environment she creates for real give and take.
I’m curious what you think.
Here’s Cheryl Abel Hodges.
Charles:
Cheryl, welcome to Fearless. Thank you for being here.
Cheryl Abel-Hodges:
Thank you for inviting me. I'm happy to be here.
Charles:
I'm very happy to have you on the show. I ask all my guests the same first question, as my regular listeners know. When were you first conscious of creativity showing up in your life?
Cheryl Abel-Hodges:
Wow, that is a good question. I would say every day there's a moment when I think about what should we do differently which leads to this creative process. Which could be in the shower or just getting dressed in the moment. But I think every single day, actually.
Charles:
And what about the first time? Like you're going back to your childhood, what's your first memory of creativity or something striking you as being creative?
Cheryl Abel-Hodges:
I think it was first when I got into the garment industry. And I actually think it was before that. I was doing a summer job for my dad. He got me a job with one of his jobbers and I went in to just cut fabric. Cut swatches every day all summer. And I didn't realize, then someone showed me how patterns were made and how it all gets put together. I think that's the first moment when I thought, "Wow, this is being part of something bigger in a creative process."
Even though to me it felt like I was just cutting swatches, it was being part of something really amazing from the very, very beginning. Like the actual threads where the process starts from.
Charles:
So somebody actually took the time to show you what that was about and what the broader process was about?
Cheryl Abel-Hodges:
Yeah, absolutely.
Charles:
Context is so important, isn't it?
Cheryl Abel-Hodges:
Isn't it? It is. And it was someone who'd been in the industry forever, and I'm this young person in college studying political science, not knowing what I want to do. And he said, "Let me show you why we sell the product, how we sell wool, why the pieces look the way they do, how they drape, how we make them into garments."
And I was amazed. I've always been, to this day, amazed by anyone in truly creative roles. In design, anyone creating product or process. I've always been amazed by that whole process. It's incredible to me.
Charles:
And what a gift to have somebody be willing to take the time to do that, right? It happens, I think, so rarely that people provide that kind of context.
Cheryl Abel-Hodges:
So rarely. And I think we underestimate that. I think, in general, people want to know more about how things are created and how things get put together. But I do think people don't take the time. And I think when there's a heritage of selling product like that. So my dad sold piece goods too and to him, he just knew the fabrics and knew the fabrications and knew why one wool did one thing and another wool did another.
And I think in this day and age, where everything's become so automated and we think things can be replicated so easily, you lose the craftsmanship of what happens in the product. And I think those of us in the garment industry and anyone related to product love that. And that's the creative part that we all attach to.
Charles:
Given that you were majoring in political science, you said.
Cheryl Abel-Hodges:
Yes.
Charles:
That was a summer internship job?
Cheryl Abel-Hodges:
Yes.
Charles:
Why did you decide to do that as a summer internship job?
Cheryl Abel-Hodges:
I think it's the job I could get. My dad was commuting into the city so I commuted with him. I had also done an internship in a law firm, which I liked. I didn't love but I liked it. And it was really, actually, why my father got me the job was to be with him. It was close to him on Seventh Avenue so we could meet for lunch during the day.
And it's funny, in the end I never think about it. It wasn't interesting work and I think now we bring a lot of young people into the company and we want everything to be fascinating and interesting. And what I did was not interesting, but I learned a lot. I learned how to show up at work every day. How to get up early, how to get on a train, how to commute. Those are lessons that are important also. Everything's not about how to succeed in life and how to get to the next step. There are things that you learn just how to function as an adult, which you don't know how to do before you start to work.
Charles:
Yeah, that's absolutely right. Where did you go from there? That experience was interesting enough to have you take the next step in the garment industry?
Cheryl Abel-Hodges:
Yeah. I was going to go to law school. I graduated college and I didn't know what I wanted to do, so I got a job at the Bloomingdale's training program. I applied through all those programs, I got accepted there and I ended up working in retail. Which I hated.
I hated working with the public. The whole thing was not for me but I did it for about three years. I was in the city at 59th Street and then on Long Island in a store there. And everybody returns everything, everyone knows every management person in Bloomingdale's, and you take everything back. And that kind of led to my career in apparel. I was on that side and then I went to wholesale after that and have done that since, I mean, it's a long time now. Since my early 20s, so a long time.
Charles:
For the people listening who don't know the difference, just explain the difference between retail and wholesale.
Cheryl Abel-Hodges:
Of course. So retail really happens at a retailer, so Macy's, Bloomingdale's, Nordstrom's, and you actually work in that environment. Once you go to the wholesale side or the supplier side, it's really working for companies that actually make product. So they manufacture product. That could be Liz Claiborne a million years ago. Today it would be people like Calvin Klein, like Tommy Hilfiger. So retail is where you purchase the product and wholesale is the manufacturing process of selling in that product.
Charles:
So you didn't like the experience of being out with the public.
Cheryl Abel-Hodges:
Right.
Charles:
Why not?
Cheryl Abel-Hodges:
Look, it's funny. The consumer's always right. Being on the other side of that is great. Being the recipient of consumer behavior and complaints is really hard. And the retail environment is hard, and it's harder today than it was then.
But it's funny you talk about creativity. I didn't think that was a creative process for me. I thought it was very operational. You couldn't control a lot of things on your own. It was really the store set the standard. And largely you couldn't make those decisions. So I think knowing the way I'm wired, I needed to be in a more business-facing environment where I was controlling the process from start to finish.
Charles:
So seeing things that you knew were wrong and not being able to correct them?
Cheryl Abel-Hodges:
Yeah. Never been my forte.
Charles:
Okay, so continue the journey. So you spent three years in front of consumers, not loving it.
Cheryl Abel-Hodges:
Not loving it. And then I made a move to go to the wholesale side. To a small company, it was my first experience, and I really liked it because it was about product. It started with product and I've always been in sales so I've always liked the interaction with accounts, so that was the sales part of it, but I like the backend process of things.
And I worked at pretty big companies after that. I worked at Josephine Chaus, I worked at Liz Claiborne and then I came to PVH about 11 years ago. But I had always been on the sales merchandising part of the business, so we worked with retailers. So the little experience I had was helpful in when we'd go to market and Bloomingdale's would come in, or Elk or Macy's or Filene's at the time when there were so many accounts. We would work with them and I could understand from the consumer perspective, not just the customer perspective.
But selling in product, what you learn on the wholesale side is you're responsible for everything. How it sells, if it'll sell, where it sells, without exactly controlling the entire environment. So once I made the move I toyed with going back for an MBA. I didn't do that. My career just kind of worked and I always loved what I do. And even this amount of time later, so many years doing it, I love it. I love it.
Charles:
Why do you think you were more comfortable, happier even, working with clients and selling to clients, as opposed to working with consumers directly? Why do you feel that that was a different experience for you?
Cheryl Abel-Hodges:
I think because ultimately I was able to shape and control the vision that was going to a customer. I like the strategy part of what we do. I like thinking about what she or he will like. But I like being part of putting that together. On the retail side, you're the recipient of that. You're not starting that process. You receive what everyone's put together.
And it's a bit of a puzzle on the retail side. I like the piece. I guess there's two things. I like that part and I like being part of a singular vision like a brand. And in a retail store, that's not the way it is. It's many brands. I liked living in one brand and being the expert on that.
Charles:
Do you think of yourself as creative?
Cheryl Abel-Hodges:
Not per se.
Charles:
Why not?
Cheryl Abel-Hodges:
Because I always think creative is design, even though we've talked about this all through my career. I think I'm creative in that I can think differently and I'm open to things. So maybe more than I think. I push that way because I like that kind of thing. But I couldn't sketch, I couldn't do any of that. But I guess, yes, around process there's other ways to be creative. So I guess perhaps.
Charles:
Yeah, I'm struck by your description of having a vision for how the relationship works, how the product shows up, how the brand shows up. And that all strikes me as the definition of creativity.
Cheryl Abel-Hodges:
I think traditionally people think of creative as being in creative roles, but that's not really true anymore. And I love businesses. I like businesses to take twists and turns. And I like to set a strategy, I don't like to set all the guardrails. I love to know where we're headed. I don't actually care how we get there.
So perhaps, yeah, that's how we operate. And I've noticed that as we hire people and we work with people, people that are open to that are more successful in the team.
Charles:
So people who are? How would you describe them?
Cheryl Abel-Hodges:
People that don't say no first. You'd be surprised how many people you meet that can tell you all the reasons why things can't be. And I say to people, "I know why things can't be. I don't actually need you to tell me why they can't be." But you'd be surprised by the amount of people who want to tell you why things can't work the way you want them to. And we work for amazing brands, and I think we're here to do whatever we can do to make that experience incredible for a customer.
Charles:
Do you think that that attitude changes with age? Do you find younger people have more or less of that? Do you find older people have more or less of that? That willingness to tell you all the reasons why something can't happen? Or do you think it's just dependent upon the individual?
Cheryl Abel-Hodges:
I think it's the person. Yeah, I think people are built that way. Look, I think people are built that way but you have to give them an environment where it's okay to find different paths. I think for me it's come with age that I'm more comfortable in who I am, and therefore I'm okay with the way things play out.
20 years ago I wouldn't have done that. 20 years ago I'd worry about what everyone said and how everyone was doing it. Today I think the business really turned, and personally and professionally for me, when I stopped doing that. When I stopped worrying about how it looks and how does it fit in the confines of what we do, and how will it be perceived? I actually think when that changed, my career changed also.
Charles:
Just wait for that to ring out. Two rings. So this is probably not a fair question but I'm going to ask it anyway. Was there a moment when you realized that that attitude and that approach needed to change? You said it got easier as you got older, but was there a moment where you thought I need to just look at this differently?
Cheryl Abel-Hodges:
Yeah. I think I had a lot of things going on in my personal life, and for a long time my personal life was very different than my professional life. I was almost two different people in each place, if that makes sense. I went through something personally where that stopped. That's when it changed.
And that wasn’t that long ago. That's probably eight or nine years ago where I was dealing with what I'm dealing with. I'm just going to have to merge the two. I can't keep two things going. It's too hard to do that. I don't need to do it anymore. I actually think that's when it all changed, where I just became comfortable in what we were doing and just said, "In the order of priorities, it's not life or death." I really say this to everyone. It's true. We don't save lives here. We make great product but we don't save lives. So let's do the very best we can.
And everything doesn't have to work. If 80% of what you do works, you're in really good shape. But we take very measured risks here so it's going to be okay either way.
Charles:
That's really powerful.
Cheryl Abel-Hodges:
Yeah.
Charles:
Did you find people drawn to that philosophy quickly?
Cheryl Abel-Hodges:
Yes. Because I had gone through a lot personally and I saw what hard things look like. And I think up until that point I hadn't. And, yes, it gives people freedom and permission. And it makes good people great.
Charles:
Did it take you a while to convince people that you meant it?
Cheryl Abel-Hodges:
A couple of times. If people are listening, you only have to say it a few times. There are people that'll still push back and I guess what I learned as a lesson is that it's not for everyone. And that's okay. And when we've come across that, I'll say to people, "This doesn't have to be for you. It's okay, you can move on to other things."
So permission goes both ways, to the way we want to work and to the way people need to work. And it's important to me that people are good either way. It doesn't have to be this way and this may not be everyone's environment to work in. It works for me and I think it works for the organization, but it may not work for everyone.
Charles:
How do you balance that incredibly positive and supportive atmosphere that you're creating with the need? I mean, obviously you work for part of a publicly traded company. Quarterly earnings reports are a big deal. As you said, you're in the garment business and so moving units.
Charles:
How do you combine those two parts of your reality? The fact that it's okay that it doesn't all work with we have to deliver, we have to move product?
Cheryl Abel-Hodges:
Look so we're crystal clear on what we have to deliver. So there's never any question about what has to happen. But the goals are really clear and we don't build the strategy by saying the strategy is to just make the numbers. We build a strategy to say what are the things that would get us there?
Part of that getting us there is we're going to have to try things. The biggest wins we've had are with things that we did not know how they would go. Like opening stores with Amazon. We had no idea what that strategy would look like and had we overthought it we might not have done it if we had weighed all the reasons why it wouldn't work. You do both by proving that you're successful. So I also wouldn't get the latitude if it didn't work. There are enough things that have worked, it's a really stable platform and we have great people . That's why we're trusted to do it.
You have to build the trust first. If you build the trust, people will give you a lot more latitude to do what you want to do.
Charles:
Are you conscious when you have success, I mean within and for the organization, of pushing yourself further, of being more expansive still in terms of how you think about something?
Cheryl Abel-Hodges:
A hundred percent. The weird part is the more you do, the more people look at what you do. It just puts more pressure on you to do more. It doesn't have the opposite effect. You don't sit back and say, "That was great. I'm done." You say, "I've done that. Now what?"
'Cause the best work happens when you're the most uncomfortable. And I've learned the most when I've been in the most uncomfortable situations. When I first started working, I worked for May company when they had owned all those stores all across the country. And I was in the job three months and the person I worked for went on maternity leave. And we had this big meeting north of the city in Rye, New York, to sell the import program. So the private label program. And she went on maternity leave.
And they were like, well, "You're going to do the meeting." And I had no choice. I wasn't going to say I'm not going to go to the meeting. I did the meeting, it went really well. They were like, "Wow, that was so great. We had no idea you could do that." And it really put me in a different light. I would never have said to the person I work for, "I want to do the meeting." I would never have asked to do it. But opportunities present themselves. This is what I say to people all the time. You're going to work for many people in your career. People you like and people you don't. Both are important lessons.
I've seen both sides. I've seen people that yell and scream, and I knew that will never be me. I cried once in my career. It will never happen again. But I also saw how people managed and what I liked. And I say to people all the time, "You have to look at both. Everyone you work for you don't love, but you'll always learn what you like and what you don't." And I think you have to. Look, as you get older you become more observant and more open. But work is like any other experience. They're relationships.
And when people like you and they want to work with you, you'll get a lot more done than the constant pushing. Like in a personal relationship, it doesn't work at work either. And you need people to help you. You're not working on your own, and when you're in a big company that's really important.
Charles:
You're a very instinctive leader. Where do you think those instincts first came from? I mean, you have some very clear points of view, right? I mean, you're very willing and able to learn from your own experiences and to see what works, and then you have a really powerful way of articulating those things. Where do you think that came from?
Cheryl Abel-Hodges:
It's funny, I've never really thought about it. I think probably my father, to be honest. We were brought up, my dad was really clear on what was expected. I mean, they were super supportive, my parents, and they've been there through everything and they're amazing people. But they were really clear on where they sat.
But I think for me the clarity came when I became more comfortable with who I am. And it's a lot of work. It's a lot of work professionally, it's a lot of work personally. You know, I like the process of discovery. I'm self-aware so I like feedback. I like people to tell me what works, what doesn't. But you have to be able to use it to a benefit. The problem is because it'll become a lot of negative also. You have to be careful, right, when you balance those things.
But I think my parents are really grounded people. And, you know, my dad keeps it real. Good or bad, you always know where you stand. So I think that's probably why, for me, I've always believed I should just tell people, in a nice way of course, but I never want people to be guessing where things are at. We never want people to guess how they're performing, if we like what they're doing. People should hear good feedback. It takes a lot of work.
Charles:
Is the same true for when things are not going well? Are you honest in terms of feedback in those situations?
Cheryl Abel-Hodges:
Absolutely. But because I've always appreciated that. I never wanted someone to tell me it was great and then tell me at a review that it wasn't good. So,, I like people telling me. I'll say to them, "So this went well." I was with someone, a senior leader, earlier today and I said, "You know, the meeting you've scheduled, it doesn't work. It's too many people. You should change the format." And she said, "Okay, I will."
I think in the business world we think coaching's a terrible thing because we think it's all about feedback. It's not. It's information. I think what you learn also in life is people can say something to you and they're not talking about your integrity or your intelligence or your skills. They're just giving feedback. Sometimes it's just feedback and there's a period at the end of the statement. It's actually not an assessment of who you are and what you do. But that takes a really long time to get through life to realize that.
That they're not saying I'm terrible. They're just saying they'd like this changed. Or you do a whole head game and I want people to know that. I'll say to them, "You know, I'm only saying this because I just want to help you. We should just do this, this and this." You do that enough times, people get it. They understand it's coming from the right place.
Charles:
I've also always been struck by the fact that when you're leading other people, it's not your career. It's theirs, right? And giving them honest feedback is, I think, one of the most generous things that you can do as a leader.
Cheryl Abel-Hodges:
Yeah. So some leaders don't know that though. Some leaders always think it's about them. And when you're that way, I don't know how you ever do it. I think there's two things in what you're saying. One is that's true, and the second is everybody needs to be led differently.
Everybody doesn't react the same way. I have one person on my team that every time I go to talk to him he thinks he's actually getting fired. Even though he's doing a great job. But there's just tremendous insecurity. I have others that are very in your face and they just want to talk about it 24 hours a day. It's not up to me how to do that. It's up to what will motivate them the most. And I know that I have some that want to be overly involved and some that don't want to be, and that's up to me to figure that out.
And I think people think there's some secret sauce in what we do, because someone just said something to me recently about it. And I said to them, "No, it's just that they're just people." So I just want people to relate and I want them to feel safe and comfortable, but I wanted them to understand that I know they also have personal lives and I know they have things that go on. And I want everyone to be treated the same way, but it does take you a long time. Some people will never be good at managing versus doing. And the biggest jump in your career is from a doer to a manager.
And that's where often people can't make it at many levels. It's every level. Because it's not about you. Because it's not about you getting it done. It's that you're going to have to give it to someone else and even if it takes 10 times to get it right, you're going to let them do it. But there are people that don't know how to let go. And I think as I talk about that nine year mark nine years ago, I think it was longer ago that I learned that I can't hire everyone like me. But I used to. I was like, well, everyone will just operate the way I do. Then you get 10 decisions that look like me.
When I learned to not do that, I learned to create a group that's just lets people be good at what they're good at. It's amazing what you find. But it's not how it was for the early part of my career. I just wanted people like me. But when you let people be good at what they're good at, it's incredible what happens. And if you talk about a creative process, right, that's a process. I stopped trying to put people in a box that I have and put them in their own box and let them run it the way they want to. It may not be my way. It doesn't matter. It works. And they're happy and they're fulfilled. And that's when you get the best out of a team.
Charles:
Yeah. I think that's really well put. We came up with a phrase at some point in owning our own business where we suddenly realized that the best way to build a company was to do the things that only you could do. And then everything else. I think if you're in a leadership situation and you focus on it, there are certain things that only we are able to do because we get access to clients or customers or whatever. If you focus on that and then start pushing all the other stuff down, you bring people up towards you because you're giving them opportunity to take much more responsibility on.
So as you're hiring now, are you conscious of looking for diverse points of view, diverse backgrounds?
Cheryl Abel-Hodges:
A hundred percent.. We run a lot of businesses and we touch a lot of consumers, and our workforce should be reflective of our consumer base. And the only way to do that is to bring different people in. And I'll meet people often when we don't have a job but I'll say to them, "What is it you want to do?" And they'll tell me what they want to do and I'll say, "Okay, so just let us think about it."
And when the right thing happens, we'll know. I'll pull people in in the company and say, "Where are you headed? You know, I'm not a mind reader. What do you want to do?" And they'll say, "Well, this is really what I'm interested in." Okay, then that's what we should try to do. Yeah, we need diversity of thought because it makes us uncomfortable and it makes us better. People are best when they're uncomfortable. It’s just the way things go in life. And when we bring people in and it's uncomfortable, it's amazing where people move to.
Charles:
Yeah, I think that's well put too. I read the other day that Amazon is now beginning to hire in certain situations against characteristics rather than job description. What do you think of that?
Cheryl Abel-Hodges:
That's smart, that's smart. I like it. We don't do something as formal as that but I do notice when we end up in a skillset we think, well, it would be better if this were to happen. I think about so who would I get to do that? Or is there someone I've come across that I think exemplifies those skills and could we find someone else to do that?
I think it's actually quite smart because the days of a job, per se, we often bring people in for a job and we're surprised how much it progresses outside of what we thought. So the job description thing feels limiting. It's what you have to do in a big company because we have to grade levels and decide where people sit in an organization. But it's really more about skills people bring in. I was saying to someone earlier today that we could teach someone skills. I can't teach someone how to be aggressive or be a self-starter or be a good self-learner. I can't teach that.
And we find it's people that have those skills are going to be successful, no matter what. We could teach you the hard skills. I can't teach perspective and personality is really hard for us. And I said this before. When people come in, I've said to people “no” can't be the first thing you say. Some people have to operate that way. And that doesn't work here either. I'm like we should always say yes.
Charles:
So are you focused, as part of that, on refining your interview process? Because it's hard to get some of that inside out of a traditional interview process.
Cheryl Abel-Hodges:
It is, it is. So when we interview someone, we have them interviewed by a lot of people. We learned that early on. It's a great way to do it. And then we really listen to what people say. I don't actually have people interviewing them and then say, "Well, I don't really care what you said, we're going to hire them." We really take into consideration what everyone says.
Perspective's important. Being in a team only works if you can be part of a team. If you're rejected by the team, kind of an organ rejection, it doesn't work. You can be brilliant. If you're more about being right than you are being part of solving what happens in a business, you will not make it. Being smart but being on your own island, it does not work. So that ability to connect with others, because when you're in a meeting with five people you need someone else in the meeting who's an ally. If you don't have that, every decision is difficult.
So, yes, and I think that interview process has helped us. I think we've dodged a few bullets. We've also made mistakes but we've all made the same mistake, and then everyone says, "Well, it's funny. I thought it would work out but it didn't." It's okay. Also, everyone has a piece of what you're doing then. So we didn't force anyone. Everyone's been involved and then everyone feels responsible to make it work. That is a big thing in a company as well, that everyone feels if I give 10% more to help this person be successful, they might be more successful for us.
Charles:
So given that process, which is obviously very inclusive, is it harder than to get a group of people that kind of size that you're describing to accept people who are different from them? Not in terms of the way they think as much as anything else. I mean, do you find that you have to work harder to create greater levels of diverse thinking in an organization?
Cheryl Abel-Hodges:
No. No, because the team that does that cross-interviewing is pretty progressive in thought. Not threatened, feels like things will be additive. And I I always tell them what I'm thinking. So if I bring someone in, I'll say to them, "This is why I would bring someone in. It's for these three reasons." And there's clarity around what I'm trying to do and what I want to do, and then they'll say either got it, that's the right person, or I get what you're trying to do. Maybe that's not the right person.
But, again, I like feedback. So I'm not a leader that says, "Here's the list. Go do it." When we do anything in the business that involves many, many people, I'll pull my leadership team together and say, "This is what's on the table. Do you want to do this or not?" And the truth is, if they don't want to do it we won't do it. I don't really just ask anyone's opinion just to hear them talk. If they do, we're good and we'll go forward. If they don't, I'll stop a process.
And I have no problem. What I've learned in life also, is there's nothing better than saying no in a situation when everyone's just uncomfortable. We've had things, we've gone down a path, and I've had to say, "We're just going to stop doing it." Everyone's like, "Well, yeah, we're just going to stop." It's okay. And I just think there's a relief that people are just saying, "We can be in and we can also be out." And I'm okay with that. Either way, I'm all right with it.
Charles:
Are there times when, on the flip side, you have to make a decision because the leader has to make a decision that not everybody either understands or gets on board?
Cheryl Abel-Hodges:
Of course, yeah. And that's what I'm here to do. So no-one comes into my office to tell me everything's great. Usually they come to me because it's a problem. And, yeah, I have to make a call. And I am decisive. So people lead differently. Some people lead by consensus. I like input but I like to be decisive. And every decision is not right, but I make the decision.
Because the worst thing you can do to an organization is not decide things. And people just are completely lost in that neutral world of I don't know what to do with myself. And I've said to them I'm going to make a lot of decisions and they may not be all right. We're just going to move forward. This is what I've learned. You can make a lot of decisions, you can fix just about everything.
Charles:
It's true, yeah.
Cheryl Abel-Hodges:
Right? So, again, we don't save lives. So we do reorganizations, we make business plans, we do those things. If it doesn't work we'll change it. And I'm not afraid of saying, "It didn't work. We'll change it." So when you don't lock, it's funny. I think in life people think at a certain level you have to lock yourself in. I would say you don't have to lock yourself in. You have to be strong in what you want and, I think, clear in the vision.
But we make changes all the time. When I've done something and we say that didn't really come together the way we thought, let's go the other road, the other way around, it's fine. And usually we'll get to an answer. It may take maneuvering but we'll get there. It may not be exactly what we want but we'll learn a lot by doing it. And I don't like “we can't.” Absolutes just don't work. We try everything but at the end of the day we're going to make the best decision that we can understand.
And I have to. People need to know. There's a balance though. I have to make decisions and I have to let people to make decisions. So what I do when they come to me is say, "Well, what exactly would you do? Because at the end of the day I could tell you, but what is it that you want to do?" And everyone has to own that also. I don't like an organization where it all goes to one person either. It's a balance, right? Because it's easy for me to say what my two cents are, but that's not what it's about.
And you have to learn how to listen. People have to come in and be able to talk through the way they want to talk through things, and I just have to let that happen. And I have people that I have to coach on how to do that. Not to jump to the end of the book before we've heard the whole story. Let them tell the story the way they want to. And stop giving everyone to-do lists. Let them come back with their thoughts and process. But you'd be surprised, it's hard for people. Because people think, "If I'm in charge I have to make all the decisions. I'm in control." You're not. They may look at you in the boardroom but ultimately it's not all about you.
Charles:
It's interesting, actually. That leads me to a question. I don't think I've asked this of anybody else that's been on the podcast so far. What role does your ego play in your leadership?
Cheryl Abel-Hodges:
This is going to sound weird because of what I do, but it's not important to me. It doesn't really play any. I'm very much about giving credit to others, making sure they feel well respected. But I know that I'm going to do the very best I can. But the business and the company will be here long after I'm not here. So it's not really about me.
It's really about the people I put in place and the business we run and the ability for longevity. It has nothing to do with me. I like it here. I like working with people here. I like being successful. But it's not really about that in the long run. And when I think about the balance between that and home and family and all those things, I recognize that the legacy will not be this. The legacy will be that. And you have to keep that. I say to people all the time when they go through personal things, "You know, you have to be kind to yourself because this will all be here, either way."
But it's not really about what I want or what I'm doing. I'll do what's right for the company and I'll run the business the way I think is appropriate, but it has to feel right for me. And when it doesn't feel right for me, it's not the right place to be. So in a long-winded way, it's not about me and it can't be. And I think leaders make a mistake when they believe it's very much about who they are and what they are. The label doesn't say my name. It's not really about what I'm doing. I can facilitate what I'd like to do but it's not really about me.
And I think people that get caught up in that, it's a scary place to be. Because how do you make decision then? So I have a pretty good distance between what I'm deciding and how I see a business. So for me they're business decisions. People get very emotional but at the end of the day, I'm like we're just going to make a decision to let the business move forward. And when you do that, again it's just not that complicated I don't think.
Charles:
How has being a woman affected your development as a leader?
Cheryl Abel-Hodges:
So up until I got to PVH I didn't actually think about it. Coming here, it's a pretty male-centric company, with a historical focus on menswear and senior leadership being mostly men. Changing. I mean, getting better and there's certainly more focus on that. It's just different being a female leader. People look at you differently. I mean, I think being a leader is hard in itself because everybody looks at what you say and what you do and how you react.
Look, the thing with being a female executive that has raised children is that you're the mother. So I've been in meetings where the phone's on my lap and they're texting me because they need a snack for school tomorrow or we forgot to sign the permission slip, and I'm the one that has to step out of the meeting. I have no-one else to call. There's never a balance. You're never 100% in either place. And I say that to mothers. I did something in Bridgewater recently and I was talking to them about that.
You have to accept you're never going to be 100%. You're going to do the very best you can and you're going to love your children and you're going to be as good of a parent as you can, you're going to be as good an executive as you can. It's going to have to be okay. Having said that, it's really hard. It's very, very difficult. But there's a lot of us that do it and I think leadership, female versus non, it doesn't matter. I think there are good leaders and not good leaders. That's not a gender thing.
Working and traveling and all that, it's hard. And you have to give people latitude. Do you work from home? Do you need other things? And you have to know. I know when people get burnt out. I'm like, "You should take time. Clearly there's too much going on." It goes back to that intuition of who you have working with you. But people go through all kinds of things that you just have to be sensitive to. But it's hard. It's different pressures.
Charles:
And what advice would you give women who are walking into the workplace today in terms of their aspiration to be leaders? And what do you think they need to focus on to become successful?
Cheryl Abel-Hodges:
I think you need to give yourself, you have to be kind to yourself and understand it's hard on both sides. You have to understand that you'll never be able to give a hundred. You're not perfect. No-one is, even though we all think we are. You'll never give 100% on both sides and you'll do the very best you can at work and you'll do the very best you can at home.
But you have to be true to you. And I think if I've learned anything through the journey where I am now, it's that I'm the same person in both places. Where I might not have been for a long time, I operate the same exact way in both places. And I've never been a person that people ask what do you want to do in five years or 10 years? I've just never been the person that thinks that way. I just think, "Let me just do the very best I can. I'm not the smartest, I haven't done everything the right way, but I'm going to give 200% and it's going to be the very best I can do."
Once I do that, it's kind of out of my hands after that. And I think that's the advice. Things will be okay. But you have to take care of yourself as you go through things in life, and life can be difficult for you and for others. And you can never guess where someone else is going. Don't measure the outsides by someone else's insides. Be really careful when you work in an environment where you don't really know what's going on. Nor can you really ask. You have to assume people have challenges too.
The kinder you can be and more sensitive to that, I think it makes you a really good leader. The best leaders I've seen are the ones that really, really intuitively understand what's going on with their teams. And understand where to push and not, and understand when they can take on more and when they can't. Because then there's a sense of respect, mutual respect, that you're not trying to put someone down. You're actually just trying to help.
I think the team would say that I would never want anyone in a position that they wouldn't feel successful in. But if they want to take on more, they can take on as much as they can do. And we're here to support that. You can do anything you want to do in life. And that's important for people to know. I think I was successful because people around me said, "We're going to give you a lot and if it doesn't work we're here to pick it up. But we know it's going to work."
Everybody needs deposits, right? So everyone needs things that feel positive and good in life. And that's not just a work thing. That's just being a human being and being kind to each other. And when you create an environment like that, again it's not that complicated. It's amazing, people come in and say, "The environment feels good and people are happy." Yeah, I want people to be happy. You should be happy. We don't scrub into surgery, we're not brain surgeons. We're not actually doing that. We're shipping great product for great brands and doing it in a really nice environment.
And by the way, we get to give back and volunteer and do all these great things. So let's keep it all in perspective.
Charles:
So there's real humanity and gentility about your leadership philosophy and approach. Obviously, businesses that depend on innovation and creativity, to your point earlier as well, need a certain amount of tension, right? They need a certain amount of stimulus. And sometimes that shows up in the guise of what we might describe as tortured geniuses. Is there room for tortured geniuses in modern organizations, do you think? Or what's your perspective on finding somebody who's just extraordinarily original and innovate in the way they think, but is hard to get on with for other people?
Cheryl Abel-Hodges:
So I think you need parameters around that. I think you can absolutely do it. I think we all need a level of people that are outside the spectrum of what we normally do. Because, again, everyone can't be the same. So people that do that, what you have to do, I think, in a company is you have to be able to transfer that. So how does the information transfer to a commercial base? How does it become a commercial idea?
Once a person understands that at the end of the day that's the end game, who doesn't want to be part of something really successful? I think it's like anything else, you have to understand the talent you're dealing with and how you can relate that to what's going on in a bigger scope of what you do. But I think it's super important. Everyone doesn't have to be measured the same or managed the same way. So absolutely, yeah.
And I think you have to be very deliberate in how you manage people like that so that they can be creative. And people like that. I went to a meeting recently and it's someone that I could only show visuals to. So I go to some meetings with finance where it's numbers, and some places it's completely visual. And I have to understand that for that person, that is exactly how they process and talk to us. That value is really important, what we get out of them though. So that's going to be a different meeting and a different timeframe and a different process than sitting with finance going through how our quarterly numbers look. Both are really important. Both have to work together.
Charles:
So that too is a remarkably empathetic perspective of how to lead other people. Do you see a difference between leadership and management? Leading and managing. Is there a difference between leading and managing from your perspective?
Cheryl Abel-Hodges:
So I think sometimes. Leading, to me, is the example I just gave. I think managing is we have a meeting, I need to go through the information right now. And that is more of a tactical approach, so to me it is different. Sometimes it's really they're asking my opinion on how I want to put something in order or how I want to present it or what it would look like.
Leadership is those moments we're saying, "What's the decision that has to be made? What is the approach we have to do?" So I can go in and out of there because there are times I'll say to people, "We only have 15 minutes. Do you just want to go through this? We can do it. If you don't want to do that, we should come back and regroup on it." And then that's their call of how they want to do it. I do think there are moments in life where you can be strategic and thoughtful and lead, and there are moments when you're just being decisive.
And my job is to make sure the business moves forward. If it's not, I have to make sure that it is. So if people are spinning or getting stuck or are not seeing something I'm seeing, I have to make sure they're clear on what I'm looking for from them. I don't have to do it for them. I just have to tell them. So, yeah, I think you need both.
Charles:
So when you get to the end of a year, given the fact that you're a part of a publicly owned company and you're very clear about the fact you have to move product, how do you define success when you get to the end of that cycle and look back?
Cheryl Abel-Hodges:
Well, clearly the numbers.
Charles:
Yeah.
Cheryl Abel-Hodges:
Right? So clearly. But we have strategies that are not financial and we measure how we're doing. So we have to make sure we understand did the things we said we were going to do, did we do them? Did the strategies? We kind of go through this really simple process of taking all the strategies and doing this red, yellow, green light. Really fundamental. Say how did we do? Did we do everything we said we were going to do? Did we accomplish what we needed to? And if we didn't, why didn't we? Because that's how we keep ourselves honest.
It's great to put everything in writing and say everything you're going to do. You're not going to do all of it. And if we're not doing all of it, why is that? But that's why we keep ourselves, we have meetings regularly to say what did we say we would do and how are we doing it? Because it's really easy to put strategy on a piece of paper. That's actually not the hard part. The hard part is actually doing it and getting people to wrap their head around it. And not creating too many ideas, because I'm a big believer in three ideas. And past that, I don't think we could handle it either.
Charles:
Explain that.
Cheryl Abel-Hodges:
Well, people have jobs and they have a list of their own to do. And if we just try to accomplish three things, we'll feel great. As long as they're three really good things, because what I have found is it's as important as what's on the list as what's not. So if you put it on the list, people are clear. What happens is that people have another list. And what I say to them is, "If we didn't put it on the list, I don't want you to do it."
And I think that freaks people out a little bit, but that's the whole point of having the list and priorities. I don't want you spinning on things that we don't care about or we fundamentally decided they're not additive to the business. Don't do them. It's amazing how people hold onto things because they're used to doing it and they have reports. And we'll say to them, "But what do you do with the report? No one is using it if you just throw it. So don't do it anymore." Security.
Charles:
So given that you have that kind of clarity around your strategy and your ambition, as you look back are there points where you've taken significant risks? Have you been conscious in the moment of taking a risk and thinking I'm not sure that this is the right thing to do?
Cheryl Abel-Hodges:
Yeah, of course. Many times. But I have to just go with my gut.
Charles:
But how do you evaluate those situations?
Cheryl Abel-Hodges:
Sometimes it's about talking through it with people. Usually it's about that. Obviously I like to talk so I'm not a visual processor. I'm like a verbal processor. So I like when somebody comes up to say to everyone, "Okay, I heard this, I heard this, I heard this. Do we like it, do we not?" And then we'll just go with it. I very rarely second guess a decision we've made. I just think it's a waste of time.
So if we've decided to go forward and it doesn't work, it won't work. But once we go forward I don't like to go back and forth. I don't like that in other people and I don't have the patience. There are too many things we have to do to second guess and just debate why we're doing something. It's just a waste of energy. But, yeah, we'll talk through it and once we've decided we're going forward, we're going forward.
Charles:
And are you conscious, too, about what you're trying to learn from taking a decision that has risk attached to it?
Cheryl Abel-Hodges:
Usually. So we know it's either financial or it's to gain sales or it's to learn something. Everything's not created equally. Sometimes we do it just to see if people can adapt to something. Sometimes we do it to see if the business is ready for it. Sometimes we do it because it's a really good idea to do it.
So, yeah, we try to measure everything we're doing. But anything in life, you know, what I think is often interesting is the outcome might be good but what you learn might be different. That's okay too. And we've learned. We've had things we've started and they haven't worked. But we've learned, because the right people weren't involved or the process didn't really work or we didn't bring people along. We've never done something we haven't learned from.
And that, at the end of the day, is probably what we're really trying to do. Yes, I'd like them all to be successful but there's just no way that would happen.
Charles:
What does failure look like to you? On a personal level?
Cheryl Abel-Hodges:
So I would say it's about being brave. It doesn't feel great but you can't personalize it all. That's taken a long time for me to understand. But you have to be brave. And then you have to be able to take the knocks because people want to remind you. People love to talk about things that don't work.
You're not allowed to talk about things that work because that's like boasting. But people love to remind you about things that don't work. And that's a constant reminder and that's a movie people like to play for you. And at some point you have to say, and I would say this too, just because someone says it, doesn't make it true. And I'll say okay. So we just went through something like that today and at some point I was like, "We just have to move on with life. It didn't really work the way we thought but we'll move in."
You have to temper all of it. It's all relative. But a failure? You know, failure, it's funny. It's such a harsh word too. But it kind of goes back to coaching and feedback. It's just information. And I think that's often what failure is. I think it's just something that didn't go the way we thought but we're going to learn. I just think the biggest mistake would be making the same mistake twice. We've never done that.
Charles:
How do you lead? How do you describe how you lead?
Cheryl Abel-Hodges:
So I'm someone that loves the part of people management. But I want to know all of it. I always say to people the good, the bad and the ugly. I want to know what we're dealing with and I want to be able to move us forward. But at the end, again it's not really about what I do. It's that I have a team that moves forward and is happy in what they do. And really fulfilled with the kind of work they have and feels good about what they do.
So I like a leadership style where we treat everyone the same way, we give everyone opportunities and we're open. And that people want to be here. And they want to be part of something great. And I think there's nothing better than building something really successful and it energizes people and people are so proud to be part of it. And I think that for me is what feels the best. That you're in a meeting and everyone's like, “wow.” Or I'm not in a meeting and the team's in a meeting, and it's the same energy around it because the leadership understands how important that is.
That's when you think you've got something. That's when you've transferred that to a team that says, "Wow, this really works for us and we're open and we communicate and we share it all." I now have a team that shares everything. You can ask anyone on the team and everyone will pretty much repeat the same thing because everyone knows everything. We're also not an organization of secrets, because it just doesn't work. It's too hard. It's like trying to cover your tracks. It does not work. Too difficult to do.
Charles:
And my last question for you. What are you afraid of?
Cheryl Abel-Hodges:
Wow. I'm always a bit afraid that I won't be able to do the next thing. That the next thing might be really hard. I think that's what I fear the most, that we've done a lot of things that are good but will the next thing be as good as this is? And I think that's what I'll always worry about. Are we doing enough? I never think it's enough.
It's hard. I just never think it's good enough, that we've done enough, that we've pushed enough. And I worry about that but I'm sensitive to the fact that I may feel that way but everyone around me may not. So I have to be careful because I don't want people to feel like what they've done isn't enough. But I need to keep driving forward because sitting still is like going backwards. And that's what I worry about. If we're not going forwards, are we going backwards?
And you have to keep pushing. Every day, it starts all over again. You reset every morning. It's pretty great. It's really pretty great. But when you lead an organization and it all clicks, there's nothing better than that. And when people see it, it's incredible. And like I said to you, people think there's a secret thing. It's not a secret thing. It's just how we are and how we are with each other. And there are people that want to work in an environment like that, which I think there's nothing better than that. It's really, it feels good.
Charles:
I finish every episode with three takeaways.
Cheryl Abel-Hodges:
Okay.
Charles:
Three themes that I've heard that I think make you successful.
Cheryl Abel-Hodges:
Okay.
Charles:
One is you clearly are intentioned. You bring intention to everything. There is a point and a purpose. I think you have real clarity about that. You marry that with this extraordinary sense of forgiveness of the fact that it might not work, the fact you might be wrong, the fact that other people might not be right, the fact that at the end of the day the outcome isn't exactly what anybody wanted it to be. And you're willing to accept that and, as you've said a number of times, learn from that and move on. And I think that perspective, I mean, forgiveness in the genuine human sense but I think forgiveness through that perspective as well is a very powerful leadership trait.
And then I think third is your ability to take risks and at the same time be clear about what you want to learn from that situation. And again I think it's one of those situations where a lot of companies, especially in the creative businesses, talk about taking risks and then don't. And because they're not clear about what they're trying to do, they're not really able to learn as a result of that.
And so I think when you marry those two pieces together, that willingness to take risk with a real clarity about what you're trying to learn, all of those things make you, I think, really powerful from a leadership standpoint. Do those resonate with you?
Cheryl Abel-Hodges:
Yeah, I think that's really well said. Actually, really, that's a great synopsis. You know, I always say to people there's not a drawer in my office where there's this grand plan I'm going to take out and reveal it. But people think that. I was like, "You know, I'm not going to pull the drawer out and reveal this incredible plan that's going to have all the answers."
It just doesn't exist. The only way we're going to do it is doing exactly that. We communicate super clearly at every level in the company though, also. I mean, I throw it all on the table. I think it's sometimes too much for people to digest. But no-one's ever not clear on where we sit. And I'd always rather overkill. And I've done it where I've said, " This is exactly where we are and these are the terrible things we're dealing with." And they're like, "What do you want me to do with that?" I don't want you to do anything. Again, I process by verbalizing. I just want to say it.
Once I've actually said it out loud it's pretty much okay, but I have to have said it out loud to everyone and I have to have said it out loud to a number of people so that I can get the feedback on how they react to that. Just like we have our teams interview people, when I want to send a message out there I socialize it a few different ways. So then I can understand where it's going to come back at us. That's part of a process too. It's all intentional to bring them in but also to understand where people's heads are at.
So that ability to assess where people are sitting on a spectrum of response is really important in business and in life. Nobody likes surprises. And by the time we go to a meeting to approve anything, everybody knows exactly what's going to be said. That has taken years to perfect also, and it's still a work in progress. But it's really, really important. Everybody wants to be part of what you're doing. And that's the lesson, I think, in life honestly is that, good or bad, everybody wants to be a part of what you're doing and everybody wants to know where you're at.
And when you control things, you don't bring anyone into what you're doing. Then it's about you and it's about your ego. Once you let everyone in, you're just a conduit of how to share it. And that's what I think has worked, because I I say to everyone, "You can be involved, you can come to whatever you want. We're just going to keep you involved in what's happening." So I don't want anyone surprised.
You'd be surprised how that's so disarming to people because they like that there's no other agenda other than let's just do the right thing here. And people support you that way. But, yeah, I think your recap was perfect.
Charles:
Well, and just to finish the thought, that is a fundamentally respectful approach, right? I mean, it fundamentally says I respect you as a human being on the planet.
Cheryl Abel-Hodges:
Yeah, you matter.
Charles:
Yeah, you matter. That's right, really well put.
Cheryl Abel-Hodges:
Because you do.
Charles:
Yes. That's right.
Cheryl Abel-Hodges:
Because with this, again, I don't run my own company by myself for myself. I'm part of a big organization that has very little to do with me in the long run. And everything to do with everyone around us. Because you really will be surprised. You never know where advice will come from, or support. And until you do those things, you just don't know.
I'm always amazed by the phone call I'll get to give me help on something else. Or I'll say, "Well, that was really fantastic. Thanks for the help on that." And I would never have thought to call someone and ask. But when you're solicitous, you just never know where it's going to come from.
Charles:
I think that's right. And I also think you matter as a leadership philosophy that applies to businesses big and small. It doesn't matter whether you're huge or whether you're privately held or three people in a room. You matter is fundamental.
Cheryl Abel-Hodges:
Because who doesn't want to feel that way? Fundamentally, we all want to be part of something bigger. So, yeah, it's a good feeling.
Charles:
Absolutely. Cheryl, thank you so much for being here.
Cheryl Abel-Hodges:
Thank you so much. It was great.
