"The Cultural Anthropologist"
This week, my conversation with Kim Wijkstrom, the CMO of One Main Financial. He has seen the world of creativity through an extraordinarily diverse set of lenses. He has been in the room with Steve Jobs. He has touched the work of Vincent Van Gogh. He has worked with dynamic companies and rebuilt tired brands. Through it all he has used creativity as a language for change.
Three Takeaways
- The ability to assess people for who they are, not who we want them to be.
- The capacity to be open and present.
- A commitment to creativity and the business power it offers.
"FEARLESS CREATIVE LEADERSHIP" PODCAST - TRANSCRIPT
Episode 54: "The Cultural Anthropologist" Kim Wijkstrom
I’m Charles Day and this is Fearless!!
This week, my conversation with Kim Wjikstrom, the CMO of One Main Financial. He also has an extraordinary personal background that influences how he leads to this day.
This episode is called -
The Cultural Anthropologist
“Another part of it is, having been ... gone through the experience that I did growing up. Moving from different cultures at some very key points in time in your development, you become a little bit of a cultural anthropologist or diplomat in order to meet people or engage with people.”
Every leader is a brand. All of them. And that brand is being analyzed all the time.
Whether you are aware of it or not, if you’re the leader you’re walking around with a barcode printed on your forehead. And everyone else is holding up a scanner and reading the data you’ve entered. And when the data you give them in one moment, is different from the data you given them in another, they get confused, or worse stop trusting you. Which is why consistency is such a critical element of leadership. It creates trust and builds momentum.
But it has to be paired with another dynamic of the most successful leaders. Empathy. The ability to read a room and adapt so that you can lead them in ways that work for them. While still being true to what matters to you.
And the reason that’s hard i because most leaders don’t know what matters to them. Not really. Not in a way they can repeat a week, a day or sometimes even an hour later.
You are a brand. And you are a human being. And defining what both of those mean to you are the kindest and most valuable things you can do today - for yourself and for everyone that works for you.
Kim Wjikstrom has seen the world of creativity through an extraordinarily diverse set of lenses. He has been in the room with Steve Jobs. He has touched the work of Vincent Van Gogh. He has worked with dynamic companies and rebuilt tired brands. Through it all he has used creativity as a language for change.
I hope you enjoy our conversation. Here’s Kim Wjikstrom.
Charles:
Kim, welcome to Fearless. Thank you so much for being here.
Kim Wijkstrom:
Pleasure to be here.
Charles:
My regular listeners know I ask this question. I've debated whether to change it. I'm going to ask you the same question, but I have a follow up. When did creativity first show up in your life? When were you first conscious of something being creative?
Kim Wijkstrom:
So I think it's very hard to pinpoint the moment when you recognize something being creative. I think in my case, it has a lot to do with my parents and it has a lot to do with environment. And I think that ... you know, I was born and raised in Liberia and West Africa.
Charles:
Wow.
Kim Wijkstrom:
In a small town called Yekepaon the border of Guinea. Obviously I knew no different from what I was born into, but that was a very particular and very rich cultural environment if you will that I grew to love growing up. But I am also Swedish. My parents are Swedish and had moved there and had me there. And so in the summers we would go back to Sweden. So the environment or the nature part of this is really about, I guess, seeing the contrast between where I was born and raised in that culture and then moving to Sweden or going to Sweden for a month in the summer and during that month often traveling in Europe and discovering a completely different world that I had no idea existed, of course.
That couple with nurture, which was really my parents love of creativity. We lived in a mining town, and my Dad ran the mining ore company there. So it doesn't sound very creative, but he and my Mom, my Dad and my Mom were both very creatively interested. So the usual things; reading story books to the children, but also my Dad wrote a lot, and he still writes a lot. And my Mom sang a lot. So I think ... I think somewhere in there, there was an epiphany at some point that there's a lot of joy in creativity and there's a lot in the world to discover that's different.
Charles:
What an extraordinary biography. How long did you live in Africa?
Kim Wijkstrom:
Until I was 11.
Charles:
And then moved where?
Kim Wijkstrom:
So from there we moved to Sweden. So we moved to a town called Gothenburg in sort of Southwestern Sweden. Lived there for about four and a half years and then I moved to Connecticut to go to high school. My Dad got a different job in New York, so it's a little bit of a ... it's been a little bit of a journey.
Charles:
What does your mother do?
Kim Wijkstrom:
She was a homemaker. She is a homemaker. And basically dedicated her life to raising the kids.
Charles:
Your brothers and sisters?
Kim Wijkstrom:
Yes.
Charles:
How many?
Kim Wijkstrom:
We were five. We're now, unfortunately, down to four. It's me, one half brother, one half sister, and my sister.
Charles:
I'm sorry for your loss.
Kim Wijkstrom:
It was sad.
Charles:
Yeah. So what ... so your father's what brought you to the States?
Kim Wijkstrom:
Yes.
Charles:
And you arrived at what age?
Kim Wijkstrom:
I was about 16.
Charles:
So to your point, filled with the contrast, already, multiple cultures, different kinds of society. Dramatically different. Vividly different actually.
Kim Wijkstrom:
Yeah.
Charles:
How did America strike you when you arrived?
Kim Wijkstrom:
So I think again, back to your original question about creativity, my perception of what was awaiting me in the U.S. ... I was very excited about moving to the U.S. ... moved again from Liberia to Sweden. Sweden felt very ... even though I spoke Swedish and, of course, am Swedish, I didn't feel Swedish. It felt very cold for obvious reasons. The temperature. The winter was something new to me. And just very white and very bland. And then the perception I had, of course, of the U.S. was your American Graffiti, Grease, Saturday Night Fever, this was in the ... when did we move? ... '81. So right around the time that all those movies kind of shaped our perception of what was America.
Plus, again, I guess this goes back to creativity, I was a huge KISS fan. And I though KISS was just the greatest thing in the world. I had seen them on their-[crosstalk]
Charles:
Was KISS big in Liberia?
Kim Wijkstrom:
Not in Liberia.
Charles:
Just curious.
Kim Wijkstrom:
Not in Liberia. I don't think anyone had heard of them there, but in Sweden they were all the rage.
Charles:
Yeah, I can see that.
Kim Wijkstrom:
And I did see them in 1979. That was my first time seeing them in Gothenburg. And so-[crosstalk]
Charles:
Actually, it's funny ... sorry to interrupt you, but KISS has this interesting cultural connection, right? Because I showed up in Wisconsin in 1979 as a naïve innocent Brit, no idea where Wisconsin was actually. And got taken out to a bar my second night there and there was a band imitating KISS and that was striking. That was a real cultural for me. So sorry. We have KISS in common. Or at least a very-[crosstalk]
Kim Wijkstrom:
Exactly, exactly. So my perception, of course, of the U.S. was a little bit ... actually Grease was also ... Grease was a big movie at the time, but also Hair was a big movie at the time just before I moved. So KISS again a big influence on me. Very excited about that. Moving to the U.S. and seeing all these pop cultural references about the U.S. and I showed up in Greenwich Public High School, which is a very tone-y high school for being public, given that it's in Greenwich, Connecticut. Most of the kids there, their biggest concern seemed to be getting parking permit for their BMW.
And I had long hair, which was not the in thing to have and I was a big KISS fan, which was definitely not cool. My English was somewhat halting at that point. And that was my intro to the U.S. It took a little ... it took high school to basically transition into the culture.
Charles:
Yeah, I can imagine. It would be a very tough adjustment.
Kim Wijkstrom:
It was.
Charles:
What did you focus on? Academically, what were you interested in?
Kim Wijkstrom:
Well, what I discovered then ... and, again, I think this goes to your original question about creativity. My Mom and my Dad always really wanted us to stand our own two feet. Basically do what you are interested in. And they also always, both showed their own interest in culture. And encouraged interest in culture. Whether it was reading, writing, going to museums, whatever from when we were ... as long as I can remember basically.
And so in high school, fortunately that was a very wealthy high school and they had a really quite a rich, both theater, arts and other curricula and I took some courses that were sort of inter-disciplinary European history to learn a little bit more about the Renaissance, so on and so forth. Was incredibly turned on and excited about that. Just felt like I had found something that really somehow resonated with me. Which may seems strange given that I grew up in Liberia, but it really felt like something that I cared a lot about.
And then I discovered other things like theater and arts and I had always painted and drawn. I started getting into electronic music. There was an electronic music studio, believe it or not in Greenwich Public High School. And I ended up spending a good part of my sophomore and senior year in that studio. And actually ended up winning the Connecticut State Music Composition Festival, which was a shocker to me, my senior year for a composition I did in music there.
So that was a lot of fun. And it obviously encouraged my desire to somehow work with something more creative.
Charles:
Do you think ... maybe an impossible question to answer, but I'm going to ask it anyway. Do you think that coming from two such starkly different, vividly contrasting cultural backgrounds, that coming to a third you were more able to adapt to it? Were you more open-minded about the fact that there were other ways to do things than just a one way? A lot of us grew up in one environment or one society and one culture so we get pretty regimented. Do you think you became more open-minded as a result?
Kim Wijkstrom:
I'd like to believe so. What I can say for sure is that when I came to the U.S. what was different between me ... because we moved to an area that other Swedes had recommended to move to, like many immigrants do. Right?
Charles:
Greenwich, Connecticut.
Kim Wijkstrom:
Greenwich, Connecticut was a place where many other Swedes working for Swedish companies in the U.S. moved to.
Charles:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Kim Wijkstrom:
So we moved there. And, of course, the schools were great and all that stuff, but I had really no desire in hanging out with other Swedes. So I dove sort of head first into trying to find the other American groups in high school. Now, high school, of course, being new to me, I hadn't seen all those movies about the cliques in high school. This is pre-Mean Girls and all the rest of it. So, for me, this was a cultural learning experience and particularly coming with an obsession with KISS and with long hair, not the easiest one, but it became somewhat interesting because I did really try to sort of not become part of the Swedish group, but rather get to know all the other groups in high school.
So I had a little bit of a melange of friends related from whatever the typical or stereotypical kind of cliques that you have in high school. From sports people to theater people to artistic people.
Charles:
And the university was where and what?
Kim Wijkstrom:
Georgetown.
Charles:
Ah.
Kim Wijkstrom:
And at that point, when I got to Georgetown I still had a very strong Swedish accent. Somehow or other it wore off during my four years at Georgetown, but at Georgetown I did what ... so the class that I had taken in Greenwich High School that I told you about, that I had to with sort of an inter-disciplinary approach to learning classical history through the Renaissance, I applied to Georgetown and got in, but then there was also something called a Liberal Arts Seminar at Georgetown, which was a inter-disciplinary course for freshman for, I think, it was for 20 freshman.
You had to apply to and pass and get accepted. It was taught by the chairman of the philosophy department, theology department, history department, and English department. And the idea of being you would have four, three hour sessions a week and you would really dive into the different disciplines in a historical narrative, basically.
Charles:
And the university led you to where professionally? How did you take ... that's a pretty eclectic academic path and also a very eclectic personal path. What did you focus on professionally when you came out of the university?
Kim Wijkstrom:
So the trickiness with that was that starting from that kind of inter-disciplinary approach, I thought that, that was what liberal education was supposed to be. So I continued pursuing that through college. I went to Italy, to Florence during my junior year. I studied at the [Itati 00:12:30] School of Renaissance Studies and so on and so forth. When I came out of college, I had a major in art history simply because I had so many credits there. And I really did not know what to do with that. I had not really thought about where you go with a Liberal Arts education. And this was really Liberal Arts on turbocharge, if you will.
But I guess sort of the premise was that if you learn to understand and think by studying history and studying literature and all these different pieces, it'll give tools that you can use in whatever trade you pursue.
Charles:
Yeah, I think that's exactly right. I found coming out of college ... and I went ... I went to a great Liberal Arts college in the Midwest in Beloit and I realized that when I left that I'd learned two things. One was that I didn't know anything, which I think is incredibly valuable to understand. You know nothing. I was terrible student, but even kids with 4.0 GPAs didn't know very much on an absolute basis.
But the second thing was to a point they taught me how to think and how to find out the answers to things. So when I got into the professional world, I felt that was a huge competitive advantage because I wasn't phased by it. A new problem? Well, okay. We'll figure this out. `
Kim Wijkstrom:
Yeah. I think that's right. It takes you awhile for that understanding to sort of trickle down, I think.
Charles:
Yeah.
Kim Wijkstrom:
But so initially I really didn't know where even to look, but I ended up looking in New York because my family still lived in Connecticut. I found a job with an art auction house. It was a startup auction house. At the time at the late 80's when the art world was booming. Some Japanese person had bought Van Gogh's Irises for $130 million. It was a record. Every one was talking about it.
So a few people from Christie's and Sotheby's had left and started their very super premium boutique auction house called Habsburg-Feldman on the Upper East Side. I got an entry-level job there. And in my entry-level job I basically guarded and organized the works of art and kind of managed the auctions themselves, I.e. I was the guy who brought out the painting when we said, "Lot 23." I was the one walking out with Lot 23.
But the thing was that in my first job sitting on the Upper East Side in a small office, I could put a Chagall on the wall or a Van Gogh on the wall depending on what I had in the vault that day, which was pretty amazing.
Charles:
You'd actually walk into the vault, pick out a painting, and hang it on the wall?
Kim Wijkstrom:
Exactly. And then put it back in the evening. So, for me, who had just graduated college, it was incredibly exciting from a pecuniary perspective. Not at all rewarding, but very exciting and fun.
Charles:
So you were curating your own world class art collection.
Kim Wijkstrom:
Kind of. Kind of. Try lifting a Rodin sometime. I'll tell you. It's heavy.
Charles:
Yeah, I walk past them. I wasn't thinking I would try that. How incredible. Have you ever met anybody else who had that kind of intimate proximity and control? I mean, at least temporarily over the ability to put ... I mean, a legendary piece of work in front of yourself for the day. Eh, I'll put up a Van Gogh today. That's incredible.
Kim Wijkstrom:
Yeah, it was incredible.
Charles:
What an extraordinary-[crosstalk]
Kim Wijkstrom:
And I think that [crosstalk] even though-
Charles:
You put them all back, I'm assuming?
Kim Wijkstrom:
Of course. Of course. I had one incident. It was a Dali. And the frames for the Dali's are crazy and the frame chipped. And that was not a happy incident. Fortunately, we had insurance.
Charles:
And you still had your job afterwards?
Kim Wijkstrom:
I did.
Charles:
Okay, good. So where did you go from there?
Kim Wijkstrom:
I decided to go back to business school. And I went to NYU Stern here in New York. Got an MBA in marketing, thinking this is where you would find a way of leveraging your Liberal Arts and your interest and creativity towards commerce in some way, shape or form.
And eventually ended up in advertising with that at Chiat Day and fortunately the time I landed at TBW Chiat Day they had just received a new client or a client had just come back to them. And that was Steve Jobs when he came back to Apple. And he brought back his old agency. They had, had DBB in the interim when he was doing other things. And he brought back Chiat Day, mainly the Los Angeles office but nonetheless that was a big campaign and they needed a lot of support-[crosstalk]
Charles:
And he wanted Lee Clow back, right?
Kim Wijkstrom:
He wanted Lee Clow back, exactly. So I was an account supervisor/strategy person-planner. I'd been hired as a strategic planner, but then had the play the role of account supervisor on the Apple business, which was a lot of fun. And as I've told a few people, as always, I tried in that case to, of course, come up with my ways of channeling my creativity into the mix and always try to figure out a way to include KISS in the mix.
And so, one thing, if you recall when Steve Jobs re-launched and launched the Think Different strategy or Think Different campaign, he launched with what was called the genius campaign, which was a series of black and white images of people who thought differently.
Charles:
And that film is extraordinary.
Kim Wijkstrom:
Right.
Charles:
It's still such an iconic piece of communication.
Kim Wijkstrom:
Yeah. Quite moving.
Charles:
Yeah, really moving.
Kim Wijkstrom:
Yeah.
Charles:
I'll remind myself through saying this out loud to put a link to that actually in the description of this conversation. Yeah, it's an extraordinary piece of film-making. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBJAvi3A0H8
Kim Wijkstrom:
I think it's the first manifesto video.
Charles:
Yeah.
Kim Wijkstrom:
At least it's the first one that I'm really conscious of. And to me it ruins the manifesto video for everything after it because you can't top it.
Charles:
That's right. It just was perfect.
Kim Wijkstrom:
Yeah. And in some ways I think it spoiled me because the first two clients I had and I spent a long time working on both clients, Absolut Vodka and Apple Computer, both had a very strong sense of strategy. Strategic underpinning to what they were trying to communicate. And both felt very strongly about brand. And both believed in creativity. So I think ... I thought that, that's what most clients do. It took me awhile to get disabused of that notion, but I was fortunate enough to work with those two clients for six or seven years.
Charles:
So you were in the room with Lee and with Steve frequently, I'm assuming?
Kim Wijkstrom:
Not frequently. I was still a pretty junior person. And I was in the New York office so I would fly out for the occasional meeting and I met Steve Jobs once or twice, maybe more. Intimidating person for sure, but incredibly inspiring as well.
But to get back to my point about KISS, in the Genius campaign I did insert with a creative notion, there's a classic early KISS album called Dressed to Kill, which features a black and white cover, which fit right in with the campaign. And I suggested we just remove the Dressed to Kill and put Think Different on there. And submit that as an ad idea. And I was told that Steve Jobs' reaction was that there was simply no good music after 1972 and completely threw it in the trash.
Charles:
Just as a sidebar, but I think a relevant one, when you say he was intimidating, what made him intimidating?
Kim Wijkstrom:
`His mean was very stern. His responses and reactions were very matter of fact and/or dismissive to the point of being dismissive. One interesting thing I remember ... the one meeting that I have a very strong memory of was one where we had the entire account team out in Cupertino and he came in and he met with us and we had someone there from whomever represented us in China at that point. I'm not sure there was a TBWA Chiat Day Beijing or anything like that.
And the question came up of why Apple wouldn't do some of their manufacturing in China? And he was very dismissive of the idea at the time, which is interesting-
Charles:
And ironic.
Kim Wijkstrom:
And ironic at this point in time.
Charles:
Do you think that was ... and obviously you didn't know him that well, but did you get the sense that, that was just how he showed up and he saw the world? Do you feel that, that was an adaptation for effect? That he got more response by being dismissive and black and white about stuff? What was your sense?
Kim Wijkstrom:
I got the sense that, that's really who he was. He had a very strong opinion and he didn't hold back on it. He knew what he wanted and where he wanted to go.
Charles:
Did it motivate the people that you worked with and around you to push harder and raise their game or did it de-motivate them?
Kim Wijkstrom:
I think it motivated them, because I think and I may have used the word dismissive in the wrong way. I think he was very sharp in articulating why he didn't think it made any sense.
Charles:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Kim Wijkstrom:
And would reveal whatever his bias or opinion was and why he didn't think it made sense. But he didn't shut it down. He basically said, "Argue with me. Tell me why I'm wrong."
Charles:
And would change his mind, if you could convince him?
Kim Wijkstrom:
Right. He left the door open even though he was very certain that he was right.
Charles:
That's interesting.
Kim Wijkstrom:
But he did always leave the door ... my perception is he left the door rhetorically open for-
Charles:
And gave you the context by which to have that.
Kim Wijkstrom:
Yeah.
Charles:
Argument or debate or counterpoint.
Kim Wijkstrom:
Right.
Charles:
Interesting.
Kim Wijkstrom:
I did not debate him about KISS, by the way.
Charles:
I was trying to remember if I had seen that and I don't remember having seen that ad. So apparently it stayed in the trash.
Kim Wijkstrom:
That's correct.
Charles:
So from TBWA to where?
Kim Wijkstrom:
So I was at TBWA Chiat Day for a long time. In advertising, I was there maybe eight and a half, almost nine years. So in advertising years, that's 100 or so.
Charles:
Yeah, right.
Kim Wijkstrom:
But it was because I loved the clients I worked on and the creativity that I got to interact with and work with there. Really thrived on that. I know I've heard some of your other interviewees say that perhaps they enjoyed it to the detraction of what their career interests would be and would say probably true for me. I probably over stayed. Certainly could have made more money if I had jumped agencies a few times, but I just really, really loved that creative interaction.
Charles:
I think when you find an environment that works, it's naturally tempting to want to stick around, right? And I think as you get older you realize how rare it is to find an environment that is truly capable of bringing out your best and the best of the people around you.
Kim Wijkstrom:
Exactly.
Charles:
I was talking to somebody the other day about working at Ogilvy back in the early 80's and I started Ogilvy right out of college and that was before it was owned by WPP. Still privately held. David would walk the halls and you would literally bump into him from time to time. He wasn't there a lot, but he was around. And it was run by a group of people who had the ethos of the company in their blood because they had spent so long there and the ethos had been so well defined and so clearly defined and invested in extraordinary ways in everybody.
And I showed up as a assistant media planner and became an assistant account executive so I could remember the investment they made in sending me to a training program out of state and with 50 other assistant account executives. And to this day I look back at that and think ... and I built my own company, which I was proud of the culture we built and we were intentionally and conscious about the kind of culture we were building, but I'm still not sure that looking back I would tell anybody that there was ever a better culture that I worked in then that one at Ogilvy.
So I think to your point, it's natural to want to stick around a place that brings out the best in you and cares about you.
Kim Wijkstrom:
Yeah.
Charles:
It's hard to create those environments.
Kim Wijkstrom:
It is. It is. I agree. Very much so and I think when I started at TBWA Chiat Day, Chiat still had a very strong imprint on it. And I saw Bill Travos all the time and I had an interaction with the senior folks because I worked on some of the most famous campaigns as well. So it was an interesting time and it did seem like you really were able to have an impact and had contact with the people who, like you said, David Ogilvy. It's amazing to have that kind of ... walk into the halls and run into David.
Charles:
Yes, he told me to give him a bowl of Goldfish one day. I think that was my biggest interaction with him.
Kim Wijkstrom:
That's exciting. Were you able to get that?
Charles:
Yes, we were up in the bar. On the 10th floor and he needed ... he'd run out of Goldfish and I was walking to the bar and he said, "Could you pass me that?" I did.
Kim Wijkstrom:
So the snack, not the-[crosstalk]
Charles:
The snack. Yes, not the actual swimming ones. The snack.
Kim Wijkstrom:
That would have been more eccentric.
Charles:
Yeah, well, we were a Pepperidge Farm agency so Goldfish were everywhere.
Kim Wijkstrom:
Makes sense.
Charles:
So you moved to Crispin in Miami, to work on what specifically?
Kim Wijkstrom:
Account Director.
Or as it was called at Crispin, Director of Content Management.
Charles:
Was that a new title?
Kim Wijkstrom:
A new title, yes. Yeah, and I think it makes a lot of sense, but the intentionality behind the title, I think, was that everything we do is content. And everything ... and it shouldn't be advertising per se. It shouldn't be viewed as a TV spot or a print ad or whatever.
Charles:
And did you see your role changing or did you see the evolution of the industry affecting how you did what you did at that point? You've gone from pretty traditional account supervisor kind of role now into Director of Content. How did that affect how you brought people together?
Kim Wijkstrom:
Well, so I think that the role that I had on Absolut vodka, but in particular and to some degree Nextel with the NASCAR thing, actually framed it up for me a little bit because I was very clear on the notion that advertising is not a print ad or a TV spot. Advertising is the messaging regardless of what channel it lives in. And sometimes ... it certainly shouldn't be directed by the channel. It should be directed by the idea and then find the appropriate channel in which it lives best.
And that often made for ideas you never would have thought of before. And ideas would come that just hadn't been thought of internally because we were brought up in a traditional medium. So I was very much excited about Crispin in that regards too because they still did it the old-fashioned way with media being part of the creative development.
Charles:
And it's a different kind of culture, isn't it? Compared to a lot of different creative businesses. I mean, there is a different energy I think when you walk ... and certainly ... I got to know Crispin and Boulder pretty well a few years ago. And somewhat in Miami, but you felt there was a real hum and a real energy and real vibe about culture happening kind of in front of you, I think.
Kim Wijkstrom:
Yeah.
Charles:
Yeah.
Kim Wijkstrom:
I would agree. And the whole notion of you shaping culture as opposed to creating ads, I think is sort of a fundamental shape shifter for your brain. And that's really what creativity should be about and a lot of ways I think. It shouldn't be how do I fit this message into this diagonal or square or rectangle. It should be what is it we're trying to say and how are we trying to communicate it? And then figure out how that's best extrapolated. And how it affects culture.
Charles:
Yeah, I was going to say ... exactly. Exactly that. How are we trying to change the world around us?
Kim Wijkstrom:
Yeah.
Charles:
And I think that, that's the mark of the best creative companies is that they're conscious of the impact that they're trying to have beyond simply servicing the client and making the work. It's what is this part of, right? What's the change that we're trying to instigate and contribute to?
Kim Wijkstrom:
Exactly.
Charles:
And I think it's easy to say those words, but you really have to invest in that belief as a company to make that happen to attract the kind of people that are interested in that kind of journey. I'm sure I've said this on this podcast. I've certainly said it to people before, but I think creative people want to make one thing more than anything else, which is they want to make a difference.
And when creative companies are built to allow that to happen and they're clear about the difference, you attract more interesting people.
Kim Wijkstrom:
And I would add on that, that this is something I've been struggling quite a bit with lately and it goes back to my experience, my early experience on Absolut and Apple and that is that I'm still a huge believer in brand. And I think that, that conversation has fallen off the radar in so many ways. And I think the thinking that you're talking about is a brand thought. I.e. you step back and you try to figure out what is the purpose of this company or this service or this idea? What is the why behind it? What's the purpose of it? Where's it fit in culture? How does it change or affect culture? And that's the brand story.
Charles:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Kim Wijkstrom:
All we are obsessed with these days are every channel. And the data obsession, the sort of AI obsession, the digital obsession. All these different pieces. They're just levers in telling the story, but the story is still the brand.
Charles:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Kim Wijkstrom:
And that's all about your purpose and your meaning and how you're trying to change culture.
Charles:
Yeah, I think that's well put. I've been part of a couple of different brand journeys over the last few years and seeing up close the ability to fundamentally shift almost in real time a large company because they were focused on trying to figure out what their purpose was. And then activate against that and then to your point they could bring technology, they could bring data insights into helping them make that shift and to make that more intentioned and focused, but it happened because they started at this upper question. The why question.
And interestingly, the other thing I've seen is ... I've been around a lot of people, taught myself about the importance and purpose. I agree with you. I think it's fundamental. I've also though seen some places where the journey itself, the quest to figure out your purpose is an extraordinary catalyst even if you never quite get to the point of being able to articulate it perfectly. I used to think I had to end up with a line. You had to end up with that definition. And I don't think that as strongly anymore. I think you have to try really hard. I think you have to be perpetually looking for and challenging that question.
And you can come up with versions of it, which might not be perfect, but they move you further down the line.
Kim Wijkstrom:
Yep.
Charles:
And I think it's difficult for some brands. You would have more insight on this than I. I want to get your thought on this, but I think it's difficult because there were any number of brands that weren't built for purpose. They were built as a business. They were built because they recognized the marketplace opportunity. So now you get brands desperately scrambling to retrospectively decide why they existed. When why they existed was to sell that thing to make money.
Kim Wijkstrom:
Yep.
Charles:
Right?
Kim Wijkstrom:
That's exactly right.
Charles:
And so you can't get to a definition of purpose that's authentic because there never was one in those situations.
Kim Wijkstrom:
Right. Yeah, no, I agree 100% and that is something that I've struggled with professionally and personally because you can't separate the two if your someone whose creative. Right? Or is interested in how creativity helps solve that question.
Charles:
And a KISS fan.
Kim Wijkstrom:
And a KISS fan at that. Life is always more complicated when you're a KISS fan, but yes and I think that a lot of it has also to do, I think, with perhaps maturing a little bit and realizing that not everything does have a simple answer to it, because there's always the desire to find that answer, but sometimes it's just a square peg for a round hole and you just need to keep on sort of refining it. And that's where differentiation comes in. I'll say if you want to get into the marketing terminology and maybe there isn't a real purpose, purpose, but there is ways of differentiating and making your particular offering slightly enhanced or different from what else is out there.
Charles:
You've moved on to the brand side over the last few years. First at Perry Ellis and now at One Main. How has your perspective shifted or been added to about the power of creativity to make these kinds of differences now that you're on the brand side?
Kim Wijkstrom:
It's just reinforced it so much more and that's interesting because the obsession on the company sides, obsession may be the wrong word. Priority is certainly true. The company side is always about next quarterly results. And so it's very retail-y. Very tactical mindset, but what my experience has to me reinforced is that in doing ... thinking that short term, you're actually proving again the value of the brand.
So when I came into Perry Ellis International, it's a company, a holding company of 34 different fashion apparel brands. Men's, women's, sports, whatever. Lots of famous brands there, but the most famous one being the namesake. And the Perry Ellis brand kind of fell off the radar after Perry Ellis himself passed away. This company bought the brand and then have lived off that brand for many years. I saw it as my job coming in, that this is a brand that had been very relevant and had kind of lost it's relevance.
So I thought job one was try to define what the Perry Ellis brand stood for and try as quickly as possible to find ways of reinforcing the brand itself. There's a lot of tactical elements that go with it, but again they're functions and levers that you pull once you have the ... that you engage with depending on what your strategic plan is once you have the brand, and the brand store, and the brand strategy.
So that was the approach and the results for me were very satisfying because we went from struggling at Macy's to actually having very successful years at Macy's. And also got a whole lot of press and publicity that had been non-existent. We had runway shows that people actually went to. So, for me, it was proved again that brand is fundamental. The other pieces are key, but they are channels and mediums to help bring it to life.
Charles:
As you look back across your career so far, agency side, brand side, what you learned through the art world, how do you lead now? How has all of that experience informed how you lead?
Kim Wijkstrom:
That's a good question, and I've ... I ask myself the same question. Frankly, I'm not sure that I have a conscious leadership style. I think that I bring the passion that I have for being strategic and having an understanding of what the brand is all about and those two pieces being key to being able to do any work regardless of what your job is. Once we have those pieces in place, then we can figure out what each and every rower on the team is pulling towards. And that's sort of what I think what my style is and so far as that I have a style.
The other thing is I think having worked in advertising like you have, I think apart from the fact that I didn't jump from one agency to the next in order to advance fast, I'm not personally aggressive. I'm ambitious. I believe very strongly in what I believe in and I have a very strong sense of integrity about things like brand and creativity, but I'm not ... I'm not of the sort of puffery type that you often can find unfortunately in advertising. True would you say? And so maybe I haven't advanced as much as I would have liked there and I think that goes also to my leadership style.
In other words, I tend to be very accessible and very open and transparent about where I stand and basically not a very top down person. Except for in the things that are sort of existentially critical in my mind like brand and what our strategy is.
Charles:
So as you look back, would you have pushed harder at various points?
Kim Wijkstrom:
I've thought about that and you know what? You are who you are. You learn along the way and you get stronger from learning, but I don't really think I would have done anything differently. I may have had a different kind of conversation in my review in terms of what I thought I was worth. Probably should have done that, but I think in general I followed my true north and what I believed in and overall that's paid dividends, I think.
Charles:
Yeah, I think it's really interesting question or issue. Somebody asked me a question last year at [inaudible] actually about the difference between men and women. And I gave them an answer, which I think ... which certainly rubbed one person close to me the wrong way and maybe it was inaptly put and I may have said this in this podcast before I came in, but my reply was I think in general men show up like Superman and women show up like Clark Kent.
And what I ... and as I came to think more about that, what I actually meant was the people who tend to go further, tend to show up more like Superman and the people who tend to be held back tend to show up like Clark Kent. And the reason I think that, that definition or description is right is because I used to show up like Clark Kent. I think what you're describing is someone who shows up like Clark Kent. Somebody who sort of does what they think is the right thing to do and also to some extent is almost waiting for the permission for access to the next level.
Kim Wijkstrom:
Right.
Charles:
If I do the right things and if I work hard, which tend to more often be a characteristic of how women think.
Kim Wijkstrom:
Yep.
Charles:
Then I will be rewarded.
Kim Wijkstrom:
Yep.
Charles:
And I used to have that mentality. And I realized probably later in life than I wished, that's not true. That you actually have to insert yourself into the conversation. You have to be willing to ask for things.
Kim Wijkstrom:
Yep.
Charles:
And most people ... so for instance, if you're building a network, right? Which is fundamental to today's business success, you have to have a network. The way to build a network is to actually reach out and connect people and ask them for things, whether it's a meeting or an introduction. And most people, 90+% I think, are very happy to be asked and very willing to help. I think that's fundamentally human nature for the vast majority of people.
Kim Wijkstrom:
Yep.
Charles:
And so I think it's always interesting to meet someone like you and look at that question and when I'm working with clients, one of my reference points is, "Let's be conscious about A) how you show up, right? And leaning into the things that you do well and B) let's be conscious about what your network could do for you that you're not asking it to do. So you can be who you are, but you can be that in a more intentioned fashion. I don't mean this to become a mini-coaching session. That wasn't the point, but it's interesting to watch somebody who clearly brings an enormous amount to the table. Feeling like, I wonder if I could have pushed further and remained true to myself.
Kim Wijkstrom:
Yep. No, and I think that ... I think the point you make is exactly right. I think that for me personally, I think it has a lot to do with a personality and temperament and those are just differences that I have and my comfort level of what I'm comfortable doing.
Another part of it is, having been ... gone through the experience that I did growing up. Moving from different cultures at some very key points in time in your development, you become a little bit of a cultural anthropologist or diplomat in order to meet people or engage with people.
Charles:
You adapt to them.
Kim Wijkstrom:
You adapt to them. You watch. You learn and then after a while you engage in a way that feels like this will be appropriate for where we are.
Charles:
Yeah, I think that's absolutely ... I could see how that would happen from your background. And I think you're right. Your cultural background has a lot to play with a personality for sure. I mean, the English tend to be more reticent and reserved generally. It's a cliché, but I think it's certainly true in my case.
Kim Wijkstrom:
Yep.
Charles:
And I think it's ... and proving the mistake I made last year and the answer was I painted it too broadly as a gender-specific. I think it's actually ... there are clearly women who lean in, right?
Kim Wijkstrom:
Sure.
Charles:
To use [inaudible] used, but it's still a relevant phrase and who are prepared to just jump.
Kim Wijkstrom:
Yep.
Charles:
Sometimes with encouragement. I interviewed Wendy Clark a few months ago and Wendy made the point that when she first got the call to go to Coca-Cola, she said "No" to even going to the interview because she felt she hadn't checked the boxes in her own mind and wasn't ready.
Kim Wijkstrom:
Right.
Charles:
There's nobody I know that would think Wendy Clark was reticent or like Clark Kent, but in that fashion ... that moment she said, "It was my mother and my husband who said to me, you are absolutely going to go and have that interview." That got her the job. That led to DDB and now she's a global CEO.
Kim Wijkstrom:
Right.
Charles:
Wendy's brilliant, right? She probably would have ended up somewhere amazing anyway, but in that instance she held back when I think most men would have leaned forward and other people would have just jumped at that opportunity.
Kim Wijkstrom:
Yep, I agree 100% with that. And I think actually I've thought about this a lot in terms of differences between myself and my father. My father was very successful as a CEO and executive in industries ranging from insurance to iron ore to paper mills to Wall Street. But he never had ... he was ... one of his characteristics; charming though it is, was to be very forward, to be very kind of direct and very kind of ... put himself out in front. To get picked for something. And I think that I didn't perhaps learn enough from him early on. And perhaps weren't as comfortable as him, as he was in doing that early on. But I think that's personality. Going back to the nature environment and nurture issues there.
Charles:
What's your ambition from here?
Kim Wijkstrom:
Apart from taking over the world and touring it with KISS ... no, I think that the ... what's exciting right now is that I have managed to build brands in different categories. Either as a participant, a facilitator from an advertising side, then as having done it in fashion apparel, retail, now in financial services and what I'd like to do is, I'd like to really see the current campaign I just launched successful, of course.
And I want to see ... I really want to prove this whole notion of what I think is what your ultimately going for. Where does creativity live and what does it serve? Well, I think that the purpose is to do what I'm trying to do for One Main Financial, which is create a brand that has relevance that changes culture. And I want to see that happen very strongly because I feel like the conversation has just ... is overwhelmed with all the channel discussions and the data discussions and the various levers that are exciting today. Whatever shiny new object is out there as opposed to the bigger picture, more strategic issue where I think anyone who is interested in creativity should be focusing their energy and attention and passion.
So in the near term that's my goal. Then God only knows what I'll see, where that takes us, but we'll one step at a time.
Charles:
What are you afraid of?
Kim Wijkstrom:
What am I afraid of? Failure. I guess like anyone else. That it doesn't ... that it falls flat. One thing I discovered in trying to create this new brand and it is new even though the company has been around for 100 years, it's never had a brand previously and never publicly communicated anything about itself and it has virtually zero awareness. So it is a new brand.
But when you're doing that, of course, there's a lot of disagreements. A lot of conjecture. A lot of arguments about this, that, or the other. And one dangerous thing from a creative perspective is, of course, to succumb to all of them. You have to find ways of navigating to get to a point where it actually means something still and still has some point of view and some purpose behind it when it gets out there.
So you know that there's always going to be someone who is a detractor or who disagrees or finds something at fault with it. I mean, I remember when Think Different launched back in the day at ... when I was at Chiat and how there was a whole debate around the Think Different line and how grammatically incorrect it was and how you stumbled on it and how awful that whole piece was.
Everyone's forgotten about that and everyone's ... now it's just a natural part of the vernacular. And, of course, that's where I'm hoping to see what the brand that we've created now does for One Main. It's lending done human. Rolls off a little bit awkwardly at first. Maybe the intention behind isn't entirely clear, but it will be. And what I want to see is how that sort of incrementally takes root and grows. That's going to be exciting, I think.
Charles:
I wrap every episode with three takeaways. So I'm laughing because somebody on Twitter accused me of summarizing my conversation with Diane Wilkins, summarizing her, they said, "You basically have digested Diane Wilkins into Don't Stop Thinking About Tomorrow by Fleetwood Mac.
So I don't know ... unless I guess I can summarize this into a KISS song, right? Which would be okay.
Kim Wijkstrom:
I can't think of one that would be appropriate.
Charles:
So with that as context let me offer you this. So one I think is I'm struck by your adaptability clearly from your background, but your ability to walk into different situations and observe it and assess it and assess people and figure out for yourself what's interesting about that and how I was struck by your description about how you pull different ... your friends together from different kinds of groups. So I think that was interesting. That's powerful.
I think the second is your openness. You just strike me as being very present, very open, very engaged, and I would imagine that makes people really interested in working for you because there's a respectfulness about that.
And third and this is probably going to sound strange, but I think is your commitment to creativity. It's a clear and constant reference point for you. I mean, you value the power that it provides in a business environment. And are overt about that. And are constantly looking for ways to introduce it and so I think that, that focus and that appreciation allows you, I suspect, to tap into it's power with greater intention. Does that resonate?
Kim Wijkstrom:
It does. It does. And I think if I can elaborate a little bit, I think, in general I'm a very optimistic and positive person. I think anyone who is engaged with or passionate about creativity is also an emotional person. So you have your ups and downs. Where am I going with this? Life is ... life can very easily be like the weather has been lately. Very gray, very beige, very brown. If you let it. The difference is not just spring and nature coming back, but creativity. It's how we shape our perception around us. Our own perception, our own lives, and also the perception of the things that we are tying to do business for. Right?
So, for me, to me, creativity is really ... it's very liberating because great creativity gets you to a whole different place in terms of communicating, reaching, connecting with others. It's really the one language that cuts across all divisions, I think. And that's what's ... why I think it's so important and so critical to everything we do.
Charles:
That is so well put. You'll be hearing me stealing that in the future.
Kim Wijkstrom:
Good. Excellent.
Charles:
Kim, thank you so much for being here.
Kim Wijkstrom:
Such a pleasure.
Charles:
You've been listening to Fearless, the Art of Creative Leadership. If you like what you've heard, please take a moment, go onto iTunes, leave us a rating and a review. And we'll be back next week with more. Thanks again for listening.
