Senator Kirsten Gillibrand
What Is Your Leadership For?
"FEARLESS CREATIVE LEADERSHIP" PODCAST - TRANSCRIPT
Episode 252: Senator Kirsten Gillibrand
Here’s a question. What is your leadership for?
I’m Charles Day. I work with creative and innovative companies. I’m asked to help their leaders discover what they’re capable of. And then to maximize their impact.
Welcome to the intersection of strategy and humanity.
This week’s guest is Senator Kirsten Gillibrand, the Junior Senator from the State of New York.
Running for public office places you in a spotlight that is white hot. Being clear why you’ve made the choice to run in the first place is table stakes for creating the life you want to live and the legacy you want to leave behind.
“And even if I'm tired or exhausted or feel discouraged, typically I just think about who are you fighting for? Who is this bill for? And then I think about what they're going through and then I'm re-energized, because they're living through whatever terribleness that you're trying to change.”
In too many companies and for too many people, leadership is seen as the thing that comes next for those who are willing to stick around. The inevitability of rising up the org chart into a role that comes with more everything is too rarely challenged by company or individual.
Leadership is a privilege. An opportunity to make the biggest difference for the most people, that most of us will ever have.
Marty Baron of the Washington Post described it as a responsibility.
Mark Thompson, when he was at the New York Times, described leadership as the act of running towards the gunfire.
Cecile Richards, formerly of Planned Parenthood, described herself as blessed to have been one of the really privileged few that could do what she thought needed doing.
In industries where awards, wins, and results are to the fore, and success is often measured by how many and how much, I’m hoping that some of these conversations will also stir thoughts of what.
What do I want to make better? What do I want to change? What difference do I want to make for the people around me?
Because, as my work continues to evolve and my understanding continues to deepen, what I increasingly know to be true is that the awards, the wins, and the results are directly connected to the whats.
That the leaders who are clearest about what difference they want to make are the ones who have the most evidence of having made it.
Literally and figuratively.
So, what is your leadership for?
Here’s Senator Kirsten Gillibrand.
Charles (02:51):
Senator, welcome to Fearless. Thank you so much for coming on the show.
Kirsten Gillibrand (02:54):
My pleasure.
Charles (02:56):
When did creativity first show up in your life? When are you first conscious of creativity being a thing?
Kirsten Gillibrand (03:01):
Well, I was a very artistic child. I did a lot of arts projects when I was young. My mother really loved keeping us busy with lots of homemade things. But I remember when kindergarten, my teacher thought I was very gifted, so she gave me special art projects to do and I did them all the time.
Charles (03:19):
How long did you go on doing those?
Kirsten Gillibrand (03:20):
You know, I still do art projects.
Charles (03:23):
What kind?
Kirsten Gillibrand (03:24):
I paint. I've got a really good screensaver… let me just see, that I painted, that I will show you.
That's a painting I did just a few months ago at a paint and sip class. It's my version of the Cherry Blossoms.
Charles (03:40):
Wow. It's beautiful. I'm sorry we're not using video on the podcast because it really is stunning. So do you paint regularly?
Kirsten Gillibrand (03:46):
Not regularly, but I do enjoy it when I do make time.
Charles (03:50):
Were you a risk taker as a child?
Kirsten Gillibrand (03:52):
Usually in sports, I liked sports. I played competitive sports my whole life. I used to ride horses. I used to ride them in the wilderness on trails. I used to ride with my girlfriend all the time, on our own, unsupervised.
Charles (04:10):
Do you still ride?
Kirsten Gillibrand (04:12):
No, the last time I went riding my back really hurt. So (laughs) I would have to really get back into riding shape to be able to gallop, you know, in the countryside.
Charles (04:23):
Did you always want to lead?
Kirsten Gillibrand (04:25):
Yep. Yep. Always.
There were opportunities throughout childhood to take leadership roles in different organizations. I was in Brownies, I was in Girl Scouts, I got a lot of badges, sold a lot of Girl Scout cookies, liked to participate in everything. I just, there was, anytime there was a chance to do something special, I would raise my hand.
Charles (04:53):
And what was it about leadership that drew you to it?
Kirsten Gillibrand (04:56):
Well, sometimes I felt that I was good at organizing things, or good at getting things done, or good at planning things, or bringing people together to do some project. When I was in high school, I ran for the Weekend Activities Committee Chair. And so my job was to plan all the school dances, to plan all the fun field trips, to plan activities for a girls' boarding school. And I really loved that job because I was the Director of Fun, and it was really exciting.
Charles (05:31):
Director of fun. Sounds like a good title.
Kirsten Gillibrand (05:33):
Mmhmm (affirmative).
Charles (05:35):
When did that evolve into wanting to run for public office?
Kirsten Gillibrand (05:40):
I think when I got out of law school and was living and working in New York. I was very inspired when Hillary Clinton went to China and gave a speech on women's rights being human rights. And I was really impressed with her because as First Lady to give a speech of that importance from China where they were still killing girl babies in the countryside, I thought was a pretty bold and powerful thing to do. And I had really thought to myself, you know, I should be doing something in public service. I should be helping her. I should be somehow fighting for these rights and doing things for others as opposed to just practicing law at a big fancy law firm. And that's what really began to motivate me to get involved in politics. And so I started working on other people's campaigns.
I started helping gubernatorial races, senate races, and when Hillary Clinton decided to run for senate, I volunteered for her campaign and worked on her campaign for quite a while. And so that's what sort of led me into this ecosystem of grassroots organizing and raising money and, and helping candidates get their message out. And the more I got involved with other people's campaigns, the more I began to aspire to be a public servant and maybe run for office myself. So after about 10 years of working on other people's campaigns, I decided I wanted to run. And it was largely because George Bush was president and he kept talking about the axis of evil, and I really felt he was going to start three wars, and I thought we needed much more oversight and accountability over George Bush. And so I was inspired to move home and think about running for office in upstate New York where I grew up. And eventually I did.
Charles (07:27):
As you were thinking about that, and obviously you had such intimate access to different campaigns, I mean politics, you know, obviously you know this way better than I did, but I mean, politics is tough. And as you looked intimately at how hard it is, did that in any way make you think twice about, do I really want to do this?
Kirsten Gillibrand (07:44):
No, that was the least of my worries (laughs). I was not afraid. I'm a risk taker. I was never afraid of failure. The one lesson I learned from sports was, when you play a sport, sometimes you're going to win. Sometimes you're going to lose. But you got to go for the gold. You know, you got to constantly put yourself out there, take the risks, play a higher position than you're ready to, take on opponents that are better than you are, and put it all out, leave it all out on the court. For me it was tennis and squash. I learned that from my squash coach in college. And I was not afraid to put myself out there and to fight for something I believed in and run a strong vigorous campaign, win or lose. And, you know, it was something that even Hillary Clinton, when I called her to ask her whether I should run, she said, you just have to feel comfortable that you are running for the right reasons. And that, win or lose, you will be grateful that you ran. You need to run whether or not you can win. And I totally agreed with that. So she confirmed my own personal bias that you should run, whether you win or lose, because you want to talk about certain issues, you want to raise certain problems that your community's facing. You want to suggest certain kinds of solutions, and you need to be part of that debate to even have any chance of making difference.
Charles (09:04):
I mean, there's such a powerful ethos. Where do you think that came from, as you look back at your life? Was that from your parents? Is that your childhood? Were you born with that? Where do you think that comes from?
Kirsten Gillibrand (09:12):
Well, it came from my mother and my grandmother. My grandmother never went to college. She was a secretary in our state legislature, and she realized when she was a 20-year-old something that all the men were legislators and all the women were support staff, and that if the women were going to be heard, she needed to help them learn about politics and how to influence outcomes, who wins, what they run on, what their values are. And she taught two generations of women how to organize and get involved in campaigns and really project their values through politics. And I watched her, as I grew up, be someone who was larger than life, very self-confident, very engaged. She was powerful to me, and I really admired her for it. My mother did not take the political route at all. She went to law school.
But I remember her being, you know, one of very few women in the law, in her generation, and having the ability to help her clients navigate very complex legal issues, whether they were buying a house or adopting a baby or starting a business. She worked in our community to help people in those ways. And I just loved both of these women in their ability to chart a path for themselves that really hadn't been trodden much before, and doing it because they wanted to make a difference and help people around them. And that really sat with me. So I wanted to chart a path to help people, and, you know, it didn't matter to me that I ran in a two to one Republican district that a Democrat hadn't had in 40 years. Because I knew that my views and my passion and the ideas about things that needed to change and what I would do to change them were meaningful.
Charles (11:05):
And how do you hold onto that sense of self, that clarity, with everything that goes on around you, with all of the opposition that you face, with the noise of, and the vitriol in politics. How do you hold onto yourself?
Kirsten Gillibrand (11:18):
I spoke this morning at our weekly prayer breakfast. Senators get together on a bipartisan basis to share something about their faith or their journey or someone they admire. And it's a way for us to get to know each other. And this morning I spoke, and I spoke about a Scriptural passage called Armor of God. And it's about the tools that you are given as a Christian to withstand the flaming arrows of the evil one, or any type of adversarial opponent who's trying to crush you. How do you withstand all that negativity? How do you withstand the attacks? How do you withstand chaos and evil and challenges that are hard to overcome? And the answer is, it really comes from your faith. It comes from the faith that you have that protects you. It comes from your knowledge that this life is not all there is, and that your job in this life is to help people and make a difference. And that, you know, you do it for the greater good, and you don't need to be rewarded in this moment in time, that doing things for others, and knowing that this is not the end, is something that inspires you every day to keep pushing forward. And that deep faith and that relationship you have with God is something that can be a wellspring of support and guidance and certainty and steadiness. That even when the winds are blowing very hard, your feet are steady. And even though, you know, people are trying to crush you, you have protection. And that protection is more powerful than their vitriol or their nastiness.
Charles (12:51):
So you're fundamentally on a soul journey.
Kirsten Gillibrand (12:54):
Yeah.
Charles (12:55):
But within that context then, how do you define success? What does a successful day look like to you?
Kirsten Gillibrand (13:01):
Making a difference and trudging up that hill that you're fighting for and just making progress. I mean, and sometimes it takes a long time. My military sexual assault bill, to change how the military addressed sexual assault and harassment and other violent crimes, it took me over a decade to get that bill done. And it took me going in to meet a hundred senators every year to figure out, who can I flip this year? Who can I make a better argument for this year? Who wants more data? Who needed more Republican support, and now I have it, can I go back to them? So 10 years a decade, same with making gun trafficking a federal crime to make our community safer, that took 10 years. I've worked on the 9/11 health bill for 15 years. Every five years we have to renew it. I need new allies every five years to make sure the resources are there.
So you have to have patience and you have to know that you're doing the right thing for the right reasons. And that when you give up, that's when you lose. So don't give up. Like, you may win, it just may take you longer than you think. But giving up assures you'll lose. So you just persist and you persevere and you find a different way, and different allies, and different alignments, different arguments, until you get the support you need. And then you're making people's lives better, helping them in all sorts of ways.
And so that motivates me every day. And even if I'm tired or exhausted or feel discouraged, typically I just think about who are you fighting for? Who is this bill for? And then I think about what they're going through and then I'm re-energized, because they're living through whatever terribleness that you're trying to change. And so it's important to, don't be tired, you know, don't give up, because they're living this, and you're just lifting up their voice. You're being their advocate to make their life better.
Charles (14:45):
So when you are negotiating with people with whom you would have very little in common, is it that reference point that keeps you moving forward? The identity of who you're helping?
Kirsten Gillibrand (14:54):
Absolutely. It’s easy. It's not hard for me. I mean, I work with every radical right Republican there is, because there are issues where we agree. So, I'm working with Josh Hawley right now on banning stock trading, because Congress literally has a 17.5% higher return rate than the S&P 500. And that is not because they're smarter, it is because they're trading on non-public information (laughs). So we want to ban it.
I'm working with Cynthia Lamis on regulating cryptocurrency and blockchain. I'm working with Lindsey Graham on changing the laws for age discrimination. We just passed a bill last year on changing workplace rules for sexual harassment and sexual assault. So you don't have to do mandatory arbitration per your employment contract. You can go straight to a trial, straight to a court of law. You don't have to sign a non-disclosure agreement. We're trying to apply those same standards now for age discrimination.
So I work with everyone and I get things done. I mean, my big veterans bill we just passed last year was with Marco Rubio. My gun traffic bill was with John Cornyn. These are, you know, senators who come from very red states who, despite having a much more conservative bent on most policy, we agreed on these very specific things and we can build support from there.
Charles (16:08):
So you're finding the good in people as opposed to where you disagree.
Kirsten Gillibrand (16:11):
Yeah. And the thing we agree on, like, their constituents are going through the same problems as my constituents. And so when we figure out, well, if we're going to solve that problem, what's the best way? There’s always going to be something that you agree on.
Charles (16:23):
So I'm conscious you have to project strength all the time in what you do. When are you able to be vulnerable? How are you able to show the other side?
Kirsten Gillibrand (16:332):
I guess I show vulnerability to my colleagues all the time, you know, through our faith. I do two Bible studies a week and a prayer breakfast. So, those are very intimate settings where you're sharing who you are and what you believe and your challenges and things you're trying to overcome. Those are pretty intimate. Also, the women's senators tend to get together every one or two months to do a dinner or some activity. Those meetings are very much off the record. You know, take your shoes off, relax, have a glass of wine, talk about what's troubling you. Those are very, very wonderful relationships that we build. And then, you know, there's just a lot of shared challenges. You'd be surprised. And I travel with, for example, Joni Ernst and I have traveled the world, going to Iraq, going to Afghanistan, going to all over the globe, assessing terrorism, assessing national security issues, seeing how our troops are.
And over time, Joni and I are just very close friends now. So, when her daughter was getting married, we talked all about that. When she had challenges in her marriage, we talked all about that. Like, we were friends to each other, and that's why we were so easily able to partner on this military sexual assault thing. And when we finally did, it passed almost immediately, because when we were aligned, she was an advocate for Republicans because she's the only female former commander, former sexual assault survivor. And so her viewpoint was more powerful than somebody like Lindsey Graham or even John McCain was, when he was alive, because her colleagues realized she had a perspective that was much more recent and also much more relevant.
Charles (18:09):
So you're really willing to get to know the person that you're dealing with.
Kirsten Gillibrand (18:12):
Yeah, I mean, I've cooked dinner for Ted Cruz. I made him steak and baked potatoes, and his wife was lovely, and he brought over his two daughters, and my Henry, my littlest boy, had the best time ever with those two little girls. Now they're all teenagers. And it's really funny, Ted came to our prayer breakfast, and I loved the stories he told because he told stories about what it's like to be a dad to a daughter who doesn't agree with him, which was probably my story. Like, I didn't agree with my dad all the time. And so I just loved the tenderness and the kindness and the sweetness of his personal stories. And so you have affection for people, even if you disagree on literally nine out of 10 things. You can find the shared humanity, the shared challenges, and build relationships and agreements from there.
Charles (19:03):
Does the vitriol ever get in the way? Are you always able just to move it aside?
Kirsten Gillibrand (19:07):
Yes, I'm always able to move it aside. Because they've never targeted their vitriol at me. In fact, well, one time Lindsey Graham did, but it was so ridiculous, I had to laugh. It was like, he and John McCain were, when they were fighting me on the military sexual assault, they're like, “If you pass this, more Marines are going to die because they're going to be distracted.” I was like, “Not going to happen. You're going to be distracted because there's gay members in your unit? I don't think so!” And it was just such a foolish argument. And so I laughed at them, and no one's ever really attacked me directly. I mean, the only person who's ever attacked me directly was Trump. And I laughed at that, too.
Charles (19:47):
How have you changed since you ran for office, as you reflect back?
Kirsten Gillibrand (19:52):
I'm a lot more patient. I was pretty intolerant, I'd say, of time and waiting when I was a lawyer. I was just like, I’ve got to go. I'm busy. I don't have time for this. Because I was busy and I just was working all the time. And today I am much more patient. I have plenty of time, so I'm also more mature.
Charles (20:14):
And are there things you still want to find out about yourself that you're conscious of?
Kirsten Gillibrand (20:19):
Absolutely. I think when you lose your curiosity, that's when you're going to die. So you should really just keep being curious about the world. It keeps you young, it keeps you willing to learn, willing to change your mind, willing to be open to challenges that maybe you've never experienced. So I want to learn about a lot of stuff.
One fun thing I want to learn about is the unidentified aerial phenomenon. I would like to know what are they, are they just Chinese drones? Are they Russian spy equipment? What is it? Or is it other? So I created an office for the Department of Defense and the Intelligence Department that they have to now review every unidentified aero phenomenon that exists around our military bases or in our airspace. We have a lot of spy craft that is very, very concerning. Not just the spy balloon, but lots of drones, all across the country, around our military bases, around our nuclear sites. And we don't know whose they are or what they're doing, but we need to assess it for domain awareness, we need to assess it for air dominance and air superiority, and we need to assess it for pilot safety. Because they are almost running into these things. And so I would like to know what they are, and assess them for, are they adversarial or are they other? But we should know. So I’m demanding transparency and accountability, and I'm not going to give up.
Charles (21:47):
And how well at this point do you think you know yourself? I was interviewing Robbie Kaplan the other day, and one of the things that struck me was that she's so clear about her strengths and her weaknesses, but she's very clear about her strengths, which I think is rare in most leaders. How well do you know yourself?
Kirsten Gillibrand (22:03):
I probably know myself mostly. I don't know. I think I know myself, but I don't know. I don't know. How do you know? How do you know if you know yourself?
Charles (22:12):
How would you describe your strengths?
Kirsten Gillibrand (22:16):
I'm a positive person. I'm an open person. I'm a kind person, and I'm a patient person. I think those are all very good strengths. I seek wisdom, I seek understanding. I have a practice of gratitude. Optimistic, perseverance. Never give up.
Charles (22:39):
Pretty good list.
Obviously, you're able to build trust, and you do it in multiple ways. What have you learned is the most destructive behavior when it comes to building trust? What gets in the way of trust?
Kirsten Gillibrand (22:52):
I think if somebody lies to you, it really undermines your trust. I think that's what happened with the former speaker. I think the reason why the Democrats didn't support McCarthy is because he kept lying to them. And so he'd say he was going to do one thing and then he didn't do it. Whereas if he just said, “I don't think I can get it done, but I'm going to try,” they would've believed him and they would've stuck with him. They could've protected him as speaker. They're probably going to protect this next guy. I think Johnson's going to get Democratic votes when Marjorie Taylor Greene requires the vote to kick him out. So, I think in politics it's just really hard to work with somebody if they lie to you. It's okay if they don't know, and it's okay if they said, “I'm going to do my best.” It is okay if they even say, “It's just politics, I just have to, I have to stick with my party.” Like those things you can understand. But if somebody willingly lies to you to mislead you, then you really can't work with them. That's really hard.
Charles (23:46):
And I'm imagining that that relationship or that sort of recognition is forged through one-on-one relationships. So you're not paying attention to what's on MSNBC or Fox or CNN. Does anybody pay any attention to what happens on the media channels or is it always based on just personal relationships?
Kirsten Gillibrand (24:03):
Maybe some people do. I don't. I don't watch them anymore.
Charles (24:07):
At all.
Kirsten Gillibrand (24:09):
No, never. I might see a clip in my feed. But no, it's too much. It's too stressful and it's too nasty. And it's too, everything's an emergency. I mean, it's… almost all cable news is designed to keep your adrenaline in overdrive, and I just don't need that in my life. I know what's happening. I am here every day. I know exactly what's happening. I read the news, I get, I go to credible news sources. I do not need to watch cable news.
Charles (24:37):
You've long been a champion of women's rights as you were describing earlier. I mean, it's one of the things you're best known for. Obviously we need to create organizations that are much more equitable, inclusive, welcoming. How do leaders go about that? How do you merge different cultures positively and from an organizational standpoint?
Kirsten Gillibrand (24:56):
Well, in my office, I have about 60 employees, we try to have a very diverse office of people from all across the state, all across the globe, all different backgrounds, all different race, religion, socioeconomic backgrounds. We have a very diverse team. And that diversity is always our strength, because you want people to be able to build relationships with organizations and individuals and communities across our state, and build trust within those communities. And to do that, people need to be from everywhere. It's not going to be great if they all look exactly like me and talk like me and are from upstate New York. Like, you need people from everywhere. And that makes your team much more strong. We've also been trying to do a lot of bridge building in different diverse organizations by having summits.
So we recently had an AAPI summit to talk about the challenges that the Asian community's facing post-COVID with the high degree of racism and attacks in their communities. We also had a big conference, a big summit with black faith leaders. We just had our second one. We had another conference where we had law enforcement and first responders come, just so we can have ways to hear directly from these communities and link them with the people that are supposed to work for them in Washington. So all the agencies and the places they would apply to get funding and support for what they do.
Charles (26:22):
Those of us that are on the outside, looking at politics from the outside, I think are always struck by the complexity and the speed and the urgency of everything. And I read something you said once, “The biggest mistakes I've ever made are when I've been rushed. If I'm overwhelmed, I slow down. It’s more effective.” How do you, in the middle of the maelstrom that you live in and operate in, how do you find the ability to slow down? What are the practices that allow you to do that?
Kirsten Gillibrand (26:45):
I get good sleep. I sleep between eight and 10 hours a night almost every night. I exercise at least four times a week, try to do more. I spend time outside. I like to go on walks. I like to go into the wilderness, so any vacation I have is typically going to have some hiking or wilderness time. I pray, I do Bible study. I talk to advisors who I trust, talk to my girlfriends, talk to my mother, spend time talking to people, getting advice and guidance about how to do things better or how to… I work very much on my relationship with my husband, try to have a strong marriage. And then I try to call my kids often, so I just can constantly touch base with how they're doing. And those things are all very nurturing and strengthening. I try to take vacations. I don't skip vacations, try to do adventure vacations that my boys might like, that have some hiking in it. I spend time seeing grandparents while they're still with us. So we prioritize grandparents over all things.
Charles (27:59):
And do you build those things into your schedule? Are those sort of hard coded in, because it's the only way, right? To make it happen.
Kirsten Gillibrand (28:07):
Yep. Yeah. You can't schedule over my Bible study or my prayer breakfast. It has to be really important if it gets scheduled over those items.
Charles (28:16):
So is your faith the North Star that you come back to under moments of stress? Is that your reference point?
Kirsten Gillibrand (28:20):
For sure, a hundred percent. Especially in the last decade.
Charles (28:26):
Leadership has become more and more complex, and obviously, the world has become more divisive. I think COVID has had a dramatic impact on leadership. From your perspective, what does leadership require today and what are people not getting from leaders that they need?
Kirsten Gillibrand (28:40):
Hmm. I'm not sure. I think a good leader is someone who's honest, who has empathy, who seeks wisdom and discernment, who uses smart advisors around them, who builds consensus, who looks for the voices that aren't being heard, and tries to make decisions from that viewpoint. And I think lots of people do that, but, you know, our society doesn't necessarily reward competence. They seem to sometimes reward noise, and who has the most Twitter followers, and who is most noticeable and who's most alarming and who's most extreme. And that I think is undermining leadership in America, that a competent, smart, thoughtful person cannot get the time of day.
Charles (29:36):
What do you think changes that?
Kirsten Gillibrand (29:42):
I'm not sure. I don't know how to change that. What I think helps is when people tell stories about good leaders. So I like it when you have books about good leaders, I like it when you have even Hollywood content that's about good leaders and thoughtful people and honest people, and they're portrayed in a positive way. I think kids, students need role models, and so lifting up those good role models for them I think is really helpful. But beyond that, I don't know. I think it's one of the biggest challenges of this moment we're in, cutting through the noise, cutting through disinformation, cutting through anger, cutting through chaos is really hard. And that's a challenge we have to overcome, and it needs regulation of social media platforms. It needs oversight and accountability of truth in terms of who puts out things that are intentionally misleading, intentionally false. I think we need better oversight and better laws to address that. I think we're trying to do it right now with AI, trying to say, how can we regulate AI appropriately so it's a good tool and a useful tool and is there for innovation but doesn't destroy access to truth. Those are real challenges. And so, it needs thoughtful leaders right now deciding, how do we guarantee that truth can exist in the future.
Charles (31:07):
And more women leaders would help, right?
Kirsten Gillibrand (31:10):
Well, in general, I think women leaders helps. Women often are very good at building consensus. They're very good at listening. They're often very good at finding common ground. We tend to be more interested in positive outcomes than credit. At least that's what the social scientists have told us. And I anecdotally believe that to be true. And so, if we had 51% of women in Congress, I think we'd have a lot more things getting done, a lot more consensus, a lot more common sense. And so I work very hard through my off the sidelines political action committee to elect more women.
Charles (31:48):
What's this job really like? Most of us are never going to have a job like this. What's this job like?
Kirsten Gillibrand (31:54):
So, it's fundamentally a policy and advocacy job trying to pass laws that help and protect people in meaningful ways. So you need to understand policy and how government and laws work. You need to understand people so that you're attentive to what their needs are, and you work on the best solutions to help them meet those needs and overcome whatever challenges are in front of them. I think it's a job that it really helps if you have some empathy and you have some understanding of suffering, and how to fix that and how to bring people together to fix it. And then the other half of the job is politics, is how do you persuade people through advocacy in your state or your city or your community, that what you're working on is important, and translate it to them and their needs and what they've asked you for. So it's a little of both. It's policy and politics.
Charles (32:48):
And the very last question, as you look at the future, what are you afraid of?
Kirsten Gillibrand (32:54):
The noise. I'm very afraid of the chaos and the noise. And I think it's so profound that it's hard for people to feel safe and secure and stable. And so being able to guarantee freedom, guarantee truth, guarantee access to information is really a high priority. I'm also very concerned about how vulnerable we are from a cyber perspective. That adversaries can take out pretty much anything anywhere in the United States at any time. And, you know, each company has cyber defense, every aspect of critical infrastructure has cyber defense, but it's not the United States' stated policy that we are going to protect private sectors’ internet. And that's a problem in my opinion. I think that should change.
Charles (33:40):
I really want to thank you for coming on the show today and thank you for fighting the fights that you fight. They are essential to all of us, I think.
Kirsten Gillibrand (33:47):
Well, thank you very much for having me. I appreciate you.
Charles (33:50):
Likewise.
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If you’d like to know more about the podcast, or about our leadership practice, go to fearlesscreativeleadership.com, where you’ll find the audio and transcript of every episode, and more information about our work with some of the world’s most creative and innovative businesses.
Don’t forget to share Fearless with your friends and colleagues.
Fearless is produced by Podfly. Frances Harlow is the show’s Executive Producer. Josh Suhy is our Producer and Editor. Sarah Pardoe is the Media Director for Fearless.
Thanks for listening.
