Greg Hahn of Mischief USA
Are You Waiting For Someone Else To Give you Permission?
"FEARLESS CREATIVE LEADERSHIP" PODCAST - TRANSCRIPT
Episode 245: Greg Hahn
Here’s a question. Are you waiting for someone else to give you permission?
I’m Charles Day. I work with creative and innovative companies. I’m asked to help their leaders discover their full potential and maximize their impact.
Welcome to the intersection of strategy and humanity.
This week’s guest is Greg Hahn. He’s the Co-Founder & CCO of Mischief USA.
This is Greg’s third appearance on the show. His first was two weeks after being fired by BBDO. His second was two years ago, a few days after Mischief were named Agency of the year by the Ad Age A List Awards.
Last year, they were named Adweek’s Agency of the year.
Towards the end of this conversation, I asked him what the experience of being fired by BBDO and the subsequent success of Mischief had allowed him to see about his life that he perhaps hadn't been aware of before.
“There's that old saying's, if you asked a fish about the water, do you have no idea what you're talking about? Right? It's not until you get out of it. So you realize, I kind of feel that way with Mischief, I didn't know I was in a cocoon until I came out of it. You know? And, and it's not to say I was miserable or unhappy or not doing great work. I was, but I just didn't fully realize my potential until I got to a position where I can shape something and have more role in what the vision of that place could be. And it's really, you know, being able to express yourself is a liberating feeling.”
In my work, I see potential everywhere. And what I’ve come to understand is that the potential that’s hardest to see, and hardest to unlock, is in ourselves.
As human beings we want to belong, to be accepted, to be loved. Recent research has suggested that it is more important to us to find our tribes than to be part of a family. You know that old saying, you can choose your friends but not your family. Apparently, that’s more important than we knew.
The desire, sometimes the need to fit in can change our self perception and comes at a price. A hesitation, a reluctance, sometimes, often times, a fear of fully expressing ourselves.
We find a place in the world that lets us do a lot of good things, and let’s us be a pretty good version of ourselves, and then we subtly constrain ourselves - in ways that we’re not aware of, until someone else points out that we’ve been living in a bowl of water the entire time.
Sometimes, we’re able to let go of those constraints, find our voice and unlock that potential.
Sometimes, it takes a dramatic, even traumatic event, like being fired, for us to look at ourselves through different eyes and start saying, “What if?”.
What if we didn’t wait for someone else’s permission to uncover our own potential?
What if we stopped fitting in and looked for ways to stand out?
What if we expressed ourselves, fully and openly? Who might follow us and where might we lead them?
Here’s Greg Hahn.
Charles (00:07):
Greg, welcome back to Fearless. Thanks so much for coming back on the show again.
Greg Hahn (00:11):
Yeah, thanks for having me again. I always look forward to talking to you.
Charles (00:14):
It's been not quite two years. We did say at the end of the last episode, let's talk in two years. It's pretty close to two years. How are you doing?
Greg Hahn (00:23):
I'm doing good. I'm doing great. Every day I wake up and I'm like excited for the day and that's, that's the true measurement to me of how you're doing is, you know. I said this before, life is made up of days. So if you're not enjoying your days, you should do something different. So right now I am. Yeah, it's been great.
Charles (00:42):
What do you attribute that to? Why is that?
Greg Hahn (00:47):
I think it's just a feeling of freedom in agency over my own career, my own life, my, you know, I think that's sort of what was latent, in the back of, in my mind, you know, throughout my career. Like there's always something controlling me or that could happen outside my control, you know, working for somebody else. And, you know, eventually that worst kind of feeling came true and that after that happened, it kind of freed me up to go, you know, screw it. Next time I get to drive, you know?
Charles (00:33):
This idea of being happy and having agency seems, the issue that I hear most often from most people. What does that feel like when you wake up in the morning, you're running your own business, and you have the ability to say yes or no to almost everything?
Greg Hahn (01:00):
Yeah. I mean, it's a responsibility, but it's also just, it's just liberating. You know, sometimes I have to remind myself that, yes, this is my agency, or, you know, I'm part owner of this agency and I can kind of call the shots. I don't know if this is a typical stress dream, but I've always had this, often have this dream that you wake up and you're in the middle of school and you've realized you haven't finished that one class before you graduate. And then you kind of wake up in the middle of that and go, oh, wait, wait, I've already got a job. I'm good. I don't have to stress out over that. It's kind of what I feel like when I wake up. It's like, I don't have to answer to the principal. I can do whatever I want. It's just a feeling of you being able to call the shots. And like I said, that's a responsibility, because there's also people that I'm responsible to, so I can't take that lightly. It's not all just about what I want to do, but I think there's just something really liberating about knowing you have your hand on the wheel.
Charles (01:55):
And when you have that kind of liberation, what is it that reigns you in? I mean, you just mentioned responsibilities to other people, but how do you actually create a framework for yourself when when nobody else is providing you with one?
Greg Hahn (02:06):
Well, it's not like I have free reign over everything. I work very tightly with the partners and there's other, you know, owners in Mischief. So there's that, that's just kind of underlying. But just working very collaboratively with those guys and kind of being on the same mission. Everybody being aligned is a big part of that agency, we all know why we're here, what we've founded for, and what our purpose is. And we drive towards that. There's no conflicting motivations.
Charles (02:35):
How often do you guys get together and either remind yourselves of that or refine that? I mean, alignment is a difficult thing to get to, isn't it? I mean, it doesn't happen naturally. You obviously have to find like-minded people. You have to have a shared common perspective of the world. But how do you maintain alignment in a world that's, you know, challenging, dynamic, changing all the time?
Greg Hahn (02:56):
It's interesting. We worked together for two, you know, the agency was up and running for two years, and then it dawned on me and a couple other people, we've inherently developed this sort of code of ethics and this way of working, this ‘Mischief mindset’. And we've never codified it. We never formulated it or put it down on paper. And it occurred to me, there's going to be people that joined this agency years from now that won't have had the experience we've had of forming this thing. So we did put it down on paper and we have have it up on our website. But more importantly, it's in our employee onboarding situation. And every once in a while, we'll, when enough time has passed, we just present it again to everybody in the office. And it's just our way of working and the way we, the way we approach things and how we treat each other.
Charles (03:46):
Have you changed it or modified it since you first established it?
Greg Hahn (03:50):
No, I mean, we only established it about a year and a half ago, so everything holds up. But I think they're broad and universal enough that they will hold up A lot of, it's just about hu how we treat humans and then the other's just about how we approach work. You know, it's kind of two documents.
Charles (04:06):
How do you approach work?
Greg Hahn (04:10):
Always from a place of, I guess we'll say freedom. Like what, what can we do? Not what should we do? One of the things we have in there is like, we want to create a safe space for dangerous ideas. So it's just like with this idea that nothing is off limits until it is. So bring it up and don't hold yourself back and just bring you to the work. And I think, you know, clients come to us because we do push them a little bit. And I think as long as we do that with some thinking behind it, it's much appreciated. If you just go in there to push them because I want to make something cool or make some buzz that that's a sure way to fail. But if you have the, the right thinking and the right approach, and you're strategically smart about how you do the work, it gets you to some really interesting places.
Charles (05:10):
And how do you define the environment you're creating for human beings?
Greg Hahn (05:16):
I think our biggest driving force is the freedom from fear. You know, I think we talked about this last time, but what drew me to No Fixed Address, which is the founding, you know, our brother sister agency and two of the founders of that are founders of mischief. What drew me to those guys was this idea they had on their website when you first opened it up. And it just said, what would you do if you weren't afraid? And that to me was just a, such a liberating thought. It just kind of like changed the atmosphere of everything, So to bring that as a founding principle into mischief, I thought, I thought was really important.
Charles (05:55):
And you've been able to hold that for the, what, nearly four years?
Greg Hahn (06:00):
I believe. So I, again, a big part of that's being independent, is that we don't have to answer to anybody other than ourselves. So it's like, you don't take clients that don't believe in what you do, or you don't have to hold onto business just because of the money. You know, one of our other principles are if you do what you love and what makes you special, the money will follow. But if you follow the money, you'll cease being special. Because then you become commodity. So we've really tried to stick to that.
Charles (06:33):
The industry has a history of companies who have started with incredible ideals, incredible creative success. They become successful. And then at some point, inevitably they get large enough that somebody comes in and buys them, makes them an offer they can't refuse. And then that seems to almost inevitably start a different pathway for those businesses. How do you avoid that? How do you hold onto what you have?
Greg Hahn (07:01):
Yeah, that is the one thing that keeps me up at night is not the big paycheck, but, the idea of like, we get to a place where we're not, we're not Mischief anymore. I really want to keep this culture alive. So we spend a lot of time like investing in, just making sure that we're, everybody is free to do what they want to do in themselves. And we all get along. Like, we don't hire jerks. But the other thing, I do believe like there's something in being independent that changes the atmosphere of everything. I find it hard to pinpoint an agency that got better after selling. You know, it's the very rare cases. So to me, I believe we answer to ourselves and each other creates this environment of we're all in this together.
Charles (07:53):
There are three agencies, aren’t there, that getting named all the time at the moment I think as sort of creative power houses who are, well four, I guess if you include Wieden, but you, Gut, Uncommon, are brought up over and over again. You've all been recognized multiple times as agencies of the year in various jurisdictions. Do you see that as part of your future inevitably? Do you see ultimately getting to the point where you'll have to sell the company if it's going to go on growing? Or do you, could you see a path like Wieden where they've managed to actually build independence into their DNA?
Greg Hahn (08:41):
Yeah, I mean, I love Wieden’s model. That would be, that would be the one to go to follow if it, if it were, you know, if you get, you're asking me right now, right? Today. But, you never know what's going to happen in the future. There could be some other interesting model that comes up, you know, you know, Droga did something kind of different than everybody else did and sell a holding company. So if there's something that aligned with what we feel and what we believe and allowed us to do what we do, I'm not going to shut that out. But as of now, I would say Wieden would be the model I'd love to follow.
Charles (09:10):
And can you institutionalize the way that you build yourselves in such a way that it basically insures that you will only be interesting to companies that value the things that is, that you are built on? Can you codify what it means to be Mischief in such a way that nobody could take that away from the company if it's going to go on being successful?
Greg Hahn (09:32):
I believe so. And that, that all comes down to the work. And, I think what we've been able to do is attract the kind of clients that want the kind of work we do, right? So you don't come to mischief if you don't believe that the work we do is going to be successful for you. So I think there are enough clients out there, and we certainly have a lot of big brands that have trusted us with that. So I think as long as we keep that vision pretty clear, the bigger danger to me is becoming a commodity. And then you're just competing on price. You know, there's nothing different about you, so why should you go? So I'd rather limit myself on size and keeping it makes us special, you know, even though that that's more of a luxury item approach to it versus the mass market item.
Charles (10:22):
How do you filter both potential clients and potential employees? Because to your point, there's only a certain kind of client and only a certain kind of individual for whom this is going to work. How do you go about filtering them?
Greg Hahn (10:38):
We're big on chemistry checks. I'd say 99% of the reasonable accept a brand or a client is, is because of the people who are behind it approving the work. Because it could be the coolest brand in the world and the most exciting product in the world, but if the people who are approving your work or that you have to work with on a day-to-day basis, don't get it or don't align with you, then you're really going to be frustrated. So again, we do a lot of chemistry sessions and we just like, we're ourselves, we get to know people by not putting on the, um, the front that a lot of agencies kind of put on. We just try to be human, and if we connect with people, it's a really easy path. If we don't, we kind of know it right away.
Charles (11:21):
And when you're interviewing employees, what is that exchange like? I mean, I remember when I was building my company, I would get so carried away with selling them on how great a business we were building, why they should come and join it, that I, that I often, especially in the early days, would forget to do any kind of exploration about who they were then, whether this was a very good fit. And I learned the painfully the lesson of making sure that we were really extracting the right kind of insight. How do you go about making sure that the people you are hiring are a good chemistry fit with you?
Greg Hahn (11:51):
Yeah. A lot of it is just, it's personal chemistry. It's like getting to know them and talking to them first. You know, in creative, obviously the first thing you see is their work. And you get, kind of get a sense of who they are and how they feel, but not completely. Because people can put on different, uh, a different tone in their work than they do in person. So if we like their work and we're kind of blown away by the way they think, we'll get to know them as a person. But it really is just this connection of how you feel when you talk to somebody. Do, do they add light to the room or do they suck it out? You know, we kind of like to bring people in who add something to the room. Not to say you have to be an extrovert or anything like that, but you kind of have to be someone who brings something to it.
Charles (12:46):
Is the work always the first filter, or are there times when you're looking for a certain kind of personality or, or a certain kind of background?
Greg Hahn (12:56):
It's usually the work. It's in creative, it's different for like strategy and for account management and things like that. But for creative, usually they, it starts with sending you the work. But there has been times like we will see someone who's just really funny on social and it's not, it's not advertising work, but they have a great voice and bring those people in too. It’s personality. It's personality, you know, do you get a sense that there are humans behind this work?
Charles (13:27):
One of the criticisms of the industry for years has been that the supply chain of talent is pretty narrow, predominantly white and disproportionately male. I think the male female thing has changed a little bit. The 3% conference has done a remarkable job of changing that dynamic. But nevertheless, the supply chain is certainly not diverse. How do you go about, I mean, when you are, when you have a company that is such a creative reference point in the industry, are there things that you can do to help change that narrative to make the industry more accessible?
Greg Hahn (14:00):
Yeah. I've been working with the One Club for a while. They do their one school, which is to specifically designed to bring in junior talent that would not have, you know, initially thought of advertising as a career. And it's a diverse group of students, and that's one way, education's one way. I think it's, it has to start really early because a lot of people in these different sections of of the country or different environments don't even consider advertising as a career, or even know it's a career. I certainly didn't in high school. And he much easier path than some of these people do. So I think just alerting people that this is a career that you can really have a future in is, is important. But I kind of find now is there's, there's starting to be an influx of talent. There's certainly enough schools opening up that have scholarships and offered training and all that kind of stuff to junior talent. I think where it's kind of lacking is mid-level because, you know, this is an initiative that should have started decades ago. I think we just need to bring people in from everywhere.
Charles (15:14):
You've talked in all of our conversations about the importance of freedom and the ability to have agency and that that's fundamental to the environment you're creating. That aside, what have you found over the course of your career are the conditions that have to be in place for creativity to thrive inside an organization? Including going back to your holding company days, what are the conditions that are essential from a creativity environmental standpoint?
Greg Hahn (15:39):
I mean, it's sort of the same answer, but safety. Like, you're not going to get fired for saying something. You just have to have this, you can't start from a place of defensiveness or you know, closed-off-ness. Creativity is the big yes. And it's constantly saying, yes, yes. You can always kill it later, but let's see where it goes. Just an openness and a feeling of safety within your organization. You know, it just takes the weight out of the room.
Charles (16:05):
Do you say that out loud? I mean, obviously there's two parts of it, right? What you say out loud and the way that people in senior leadership positions behave. Do you do both? Is it about giving them permission verbally, but also backing that up with your behavior?
Greg Hahn (16:19):
Yeah, I think behavior has to come first. And then you’ve got to say it. If you just say it and don't follow through, it's going to mean nothing. So I, I do think the atmosphere we create, people can say anything to us. It's not like people are walking on pins and needles around leadership, which happens in some agencies. It's, it's very open, very honest and collaborative.
Charles (16:44):
And so when you are in the room and someone's showing you an idea and it's just not working Give me a practical response to that. How do you meet that moment? How do you say, how do you say no to somebody? Or do you?
Greg Hahn (17:00):
If they believe in it, I first step back and go, talk to me about this idea. What are you loving about it? Because maybe I'm not seeing it. And often in that conversation, there's something really good there, they just haven't expressed it in the right way. Or the point they're trying to make is wrong. So we go back to step one. It's not so much about the way they've executed. It's just they don't know what they're trying to say, or the point they're trying to make is not salient. So it's, it is examining. I just like, you know, if you've got nothing, you just like take one step back and say, how did you get to where you are? And maybe let's see where that went off course. And, if it's still not good, are you still not liking it, you just have to explain why. I think giving people like, no, I don't like it, I just don't like it is not helpful.
Charles (17:55):
And in those moments, are you conscious of the pressure of client deadlines? I mean, how are you holding kind of the real world dynamics of getting work out the door at bay while giving people the room, the confidence, the sensitivity, the empathy to be able to respond in the way you've just described?
Greg Hahn (18:11):
Well, I also think it's having an honest conversation with your clients. They want the best work from you. And if that's going to take a little bit more time, then you should talk to them about it and say, you know, we just want to make sure this is great. So it gives us a little bit more time. But that doesn't happen that often. I am blown away by the talent of our people. but, sometimes I get these briefs, I'm like, what would I do? What would I do? And, I'm at the point where nothing nearly as good as what comes back to me, you know. So I, I've never, I've never really been let down by the people. And if the work isn't there, there's usually legitimate reason. It's not logistical so much time. It's more about something's wrong with the brief or the foundation of the brief that, that we need to go back to.
Charles (19:03):
Are you ever worried about your own creativity by comparison to the people around you? Do you ever find yourself struggling with, if I don't solve this problem, am I still as creative as I used to be? I've heard some people talk to me about developing other talents and having other people grow around them and, and then worrying about their own creativity as a reference point. I think a lot of creative people are insecure about whether their creativity runs out at some point or diminishes at some point. Do you ever struggle with that?
Greg Hahn (19:31):
I think there's so many opportunities to be creative in this role. Beyond just like sitting down with a blank sheet and coming up with the campaign. It's often like what problem we're trying to solve. And maybe there's a really creative way to think about that. And then there's times again, we're pretty flat. There's times where organizationally where I will sit down with the team and jam with them, but, I try to add something to the idea or sit in an edit bay with them. It's fine. It's like we're, we're all in this together, but I don't feel the need of, like, if I don't come up with it, am I a hack? I don't feel the need to prove myself that way. I just think there's way more opportunities and different avenues to be creative in the role I'm in now than there used to be as a writer.
Charles (20:19):
I don't want to put words in your mouth, but is it fair to say that your sense of self has evolved from seeing yourself as a quote unquote creative to a person that is creative? I think there's a difference, right? A lot of people just label themselves as I'm a creative. And I think the more kind of empowered perspective on oneself is to say, I'm a person who's really creative and I can bring that, I can bring that ability to lots of things. Has that sense of self evolved for you?
Greg Hahn (20:45):
Not until you said it, but yes. Now that you mentioned it, now that you mentioned it is a good way to think about it. It is more of like, it's inherently it's what I do, but it's also who I am as a person. So the way I approach things and in my career reached it to a level where I can help other people do that for them too. So, I don't, I don't, I don't think, again, it's like proving myself with coming up with the idea. It's just helping get people get to the idea in creative ways.
Charles (21:14):
And to your point,, in the role that you've got now, the ability to take really powerful creative thinking and apply it to solving business problems more broadly.
Greg Hahn (21:22):
Yeah, that's what I love. I mean, and I kind of just see us, our job and me in particular is we solve problems and we do it with creative execution sometimes, but it's really like, how do you think about the business in a different way? How do you attach this, how do you attack a problem that has been tackled one way and not working for a long time and come at it from a completely different angle? How do you rethink it? Maybe you're asking the wrong questions. That kind of examination.
Charles (21:47):
You've been named Agency of the Year two years in a row. Does that raise the bar for you guys? I mean, does it add pressure in terms of what do you do in year three as a follow-up to that?
Greg Hahn (21:57):
Yeah, always. As soon as you win something, it starts from zero, you know, I shouldn't, but, you know, I should not pay attention to that stuff. But there is something about you know, once you reach one mountain, another higher one comes up, you know? I just think success or anything like that is, is not a destination. It's like a horizon. So it's going to keep moving. But as long as you're making progress and moving forward, that's where the happiness should come from.
Charles (22:25):
And how important is that external validation to you guys?
Greg Hahn (22:30):
More important than it should be to me, to be honest with you. I think like, it was real. I think when we won Agency of the Year from AdAge, you know, second year into it, it was kind of validating to me because I remember at BBDO that was a really big deal. And then to start from scratch and have our agency and be recognized as a group of people that have created something that reached that level of recognition was a proud moment for all of us. I think hopefully for a lot of other people, it means like when you think one door is closed and you're at the bottom, it's actually you're at the top of something else or on your way to something else.
Charles (23:16):
Do you have any sort of sense of industry responsibility? I mean, you really have redefined the reference point. I read somewhere that half of Adweek's agency of the year list last year was made up of companies that have existed for less than five years. Longevity is no longer a real, and scale is not particularly an asset from a creative standpoint. Do you feel a responsibility to show people there is a different way and this works and it's rewarding and satisfying as well?
Greg Hahn (23:43):
That's really what I want to do with Mischief, is show that there's different way, I'm not the only one. Like you said, there's like a lot of agencies that started when we did around this time, but I think we're all just trying to show that there's a way to be happy and productive and do great work in advertising and a model that will be successful and even more so because of those things.
Charles (24:05):
And do you talk to your peers in those companies? Are you comparing notes with them?
Greg Hahn (24:09):
Yeah, yeah. A lot of times before they've launched, we've talked and I just think there's like a good camaraderie around around independence at this point. I believe there's just this feeling. It's us against the world, you know, when you're an independent, maybe that's just part of the DNA. But we help each other out quite often and just compare notes.
Charles (24:35):
I mean, it’s always felt to me in our conversations that you're very much an open book. I mean, I don't know what you're concealing from me, so maybe that's a naive statement, but you've always struck me as being very forthcoming and willing to talk about how you do it. I was conscious when we were building our film editing company, which I think redefined that industry in those days, that people would come and ask us questions and we would share very openly because I felt our culture is unique and I don't think you can copy this anyway. Yeah. Is that how you feel about Mischief? Are there any things that you feel like these are kind of proprietary secrets that we know and we're not going to show with anybody else?
Greg Hahn (25:16):
Not really. I think we are pretty public about it. And I guess that comes from confidence that we don't believe we're replicable. There's steps that you can follow for best practices, but it comes down to the people that are in the building. Someone said an agency is nothing more than a group of people under one roof. And what you compete on is those people. That's all you got, you know? So it's no matter what you try to do, if you don't have the right people and the right mindset and, you know, then it's, it's not going to, it's not going to work. So we can put out the formula, but it takes a a special mindset and a special group of people to, to put it, to practice and make it work.
Charles (26:01):
Last time we talked it was 2022 and we were kind of, you know, emerging from the pandemic. Where are you from a culture standpoint in terms of time spent together versus time spent in your own homes? How often do you try to get together? What's your expectation? What have you found works and what doesn't work?
Greg Hahn (26:19):
I think we're in a really good zone right now. We have an office in Brooklyn, and it's a fun place to hang out and go. We try to do two days a week where it's like everybody knows those two days or the days to come into the office. But it's not mandatory. We don't take attendance or anything like that. I think the benefit of having those two days is people don't show up and go, why did I come all this way? Nobody's here. You know for a fact, there'll be people on those two days and there's no FOMO. If you're at home and you find out like, wait, everybody's in the office today. Because we generally do like hanging out with each other. So we have two set days and you can, you know, come and go throughout the week as you want.
We have a lot of people that come in every day simply because they live in Brooklyn, and it's a nice place to hang out. If you have roommates, it's kind of easier to work there, you know. So, we have people that are long distance and we try to make that work as seamlessly as possible. But, we try to do whatever works for each other. But our culture, I believe, is so strong that we can, you know, hang out with each other and get to know each other in that space and when we're not together.
Charles (27:33):
Where do you see this netting out over the next 12, 18 months? Do you think people will want to spend more time together? I mean, there was an expectation that work from home would become an absolute requirement. For a company like yours, that’s as intimate as yours, where do you see this evolving to?
Greg Hahn (27:48):
I think I'll find its natural rhythm. We kind of have, and there's days when, like Tuesdays or Thursday, like today for example, I knew I had to do this, so I wanted to make sure I was in a space where I could do a one-on-one Zoom, that works better for me to work at home, or maybe I'll pop in this afternoon. I just think it will find its rhythm. But I do think there's certain guidelines that you should have if you're going to open an office, which is like, these two days should be in and often it's really good to have clients in the office and do that in person. So it's not just employees that benefit from being in person, it's also, you know, spend time with your clients.
Charles (28:29):
How has your leadership changed over the last two years? I mean, since we last spoke, you had, you'd established yourself and, and a sort of a way of behaving and I think you had real clarity. I'm just curious whether over the last 20 months has your leadership evolved in certain ways?
Greg Hahn (28:43):
I hope it's evolved, but I don't think it's changed. I think it's gotten to the point where I'm responsible for a lot more people and I'm in meetings with CEOs and CMOs a lot more now than I was throughout my career. Because you know, as the face and the owner in some of these meetings, you know, you’ve got to represent. But I think, you know, I still think, I try to keep things feeling as small as possible as far as the agency size. I want it to feel like we're not a conglomerate, we're not a corporation. We're a group of people. And you know, as long as you lead from that standpoint, I don't think you need to change it too much.
Charles (29:23):
And as the face of the company, what do you feel is your responsibility if you're in the meeting with a CMO, for instance? What's your role?
Greg Hahn (29:33):
And not to misspeak, I'm not the face of the company, if anybody, Oliver is. Mischief is a team sport for sure. There's no one person, but often, as one of the founders, I'm in the meeting these meetings. But my role is, is to just get to know them and let, let people know what we stand for and who we are, and get a sense of us as people. And all this all comes back down to that because we're people and we're in a creative field, so we should behave that way. I think like what's going on with a lot of holding companies is they, they've just become alphabet soup. It's like, I don't even know what they are, who they are, what they stand for. It's just a conglomeration. So I think there's a need for humanity back in this business.
Charles (30:24):
You know, it struck me actually, thinking about this conversation. I don't know this is universally true, but I haven't yet been able to come up with an example where it's not. The traditional agencies, the holding company agencies, I think are all named after people. And I think the companies that people are paying attention to at the moment are not. I mean, Wieden and Kennedy probably being the exception, but Mischief, Gut and Uncommon. They are more a representation of what they stand for, than who they were started by.
Greg Hahn (30:55):
Yeah. Mischief is an idea that will live way beyond me, and I want it to. It's not just me, it's not a personality brand, it's a personality, you know. So I think, I think that's a good observation of like, back in the day it was all about the founder and the one person, but now it's about an idea. And I do think there's some strategy in naming yourself to attract the kind of clients you want.
Charles (31:20):
My last question for you, which is not a question I've ever asked anybody else, but your journey, over the last four years since, since we've known each other, has really been sort of an existential one. I mean, from being fired by BBDO to starting Mischief so quickly, to having the success you've had. We talked a lot the last time we spoke about sort of your personal journey and your personal evolution through that. I'm wondering where, as you look at your entire life, as you look at your life journey, what does this experience represent to you? And, what does it allow you to see that you perhaps hadn't seen before?
Greg Hahn (31:56):
Wow, that's an existential deep question. You know, there's that old saying's, if you asked a fish about the water, do you have no idea what you're talking about? Right? It's not until you get out of it. So you realize, I kind of feel that way with Mischief, it’s kind of like, I didn't know I was in a cocoon until I came out of it. You know? And, and it's not to say I was miserable or unhappy or not doing great work. I was, but I just didn't fully realize my potential until I got to a position where I can shape something and have more role in what the vision of that place could be. And it's really, you know, being able to express yourself is a liberating feeling.
Charles (32:34):
I bet. What are you afraid of now as you look at the future?
Greg Hahn (32:39):
Losing the culture and what makes us special. So I have to keep, you know, we're super diligent, diligent about that, and I think that as long as you keep that in the back of your head, it's easier to not let it slip away. Don't lose what makes you special.
Charles (32:58):
I really want to thank you again for coming on. It's such a, such a pleasure talking to you. And I think your journey is one that is such a reference point for people both on a human and a professional level. And I'm excited to see where you take it, Greg, you and the rest of your partners and staff.
Greg Hahn (33:14):
I appreciate that. I always love talking to you. Like I said, I get to know myself a little bit better too talking to you. So, yeah. Thank you for having me once again.
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