Rick Brim of adam&eveDDB
What do you know about who you want to be?
"FEARLESS CREATIVE LEADERSHIP" PODCAST - TRANSCRIPT
Episode 239: Rick Brim
Here’s a question. What do you know about who you want to be?
I’m Charles Day. I work with creative and innovative companies. I’m asked to coach and advise their leaders and their leadership teams. To help them succeed where leadership has its greatest impact. The intersection of strategy and humanity.
This week’s guest is Rick Brim. He’s the Global Chief Creative Officer at adam&eveDDB.
Rick was on the podcast four and half years ago in early 2019. I called that episode, “The ‘I Don’t Know’ Leader”, to highlight Rick’s point that it’s okay for leaders not to know the answer every time.
I suspect, if you asked him today, he’d feel the same way. As would I. Leaders are not supposed to have all the answers.
But Rick has been changed by the last four years.
“What has changed is I've been through, I would say, every single emotion that is possible to feel around this industry, and how you show up as a creative, and how you show up as a leader. And I think that has given me a bigger, clearer perspective of the person I want to be in this industry.”
The leadership journey is personal.
And complicated, because it involves other people.
And sometimes it’s overwhelming, because all the gaps in your leadership are filled with emotion. And a lot of that is the emotion that comes in the middle-of-the-night darkness that keeps us all awake.
The last four years have brought most of us a hosepipe full of emotions. And every day the news adds more angst and anxiety and uncertainty to that drink.
For some people, the answer is to meet that with a determination to focus on the task in front of them. To get back to work and to deliver results, come what may. That comes, inevitably and eventually, with a heavy price - for them and the people around them.
But for others, the last four years and the maelstrom we live in today have given them the chance to learn about themselves. What matters and what else they are capable of.
They have discovered, to use Rick’s words, a clearer perspective of the person they want to be.
They know that.
And that, I promise you from the bottom of my heart, is the beginning of everything.
What do you know about who you want to be?
What questions are you asking of yourself and about yourself?
Here’s Rick Brim.
Charles (02:59):
Rick, welcome back to Fearless. So good to have you back on the show.
Rick Brim (03:03):
Nice to be back.
Charles (03:04):
Four years since we last spoke in this forum. What has changed for you as you look back over the last four years? What's different for you?
Rick Brim (03:14):
Not much. I think it's exactly the same, isn’t it? What's happened? That's a a very big question because everything has changed. And it's been a very interesting, I don't like to use the word ‘journey’, but it's been a very interesting ride, the last four years.
What has changed is I've been through, I would say, every single emotion that is possible to feel around this industry, and how you show up as a creative, and how you show up as a leader. And I think that has given me a bigger, a clearer perspective of the person I want to be in this industry. I think, because everything that could have been thrown at you has been thrown at you. And some things you dealt with well, and some things you learned by dealing with things not so well. There's so many things I feel about the last… about how I think the difference from people not being together versus the way we work now.
What's good about that? What's bad about that? How going from talking in an office and talking with people around a table to talking through people through screen, whilst that's very efficient, it's made a lot of people that beforehand were a bit more carefree, very responsible. I think we have a workforce across the board that now has a muscle memory of responsibility as opposed to being a bit more carefree. I mean, it's been… I’ve spoken about this a lot. It's our war. It's our thing that we all went through and we are starting to see the effects, but I don't think… I think it'll be years before we get a sense of the true effects of it.
Charles (05:28):
Your distinction between it being a journey and a ride is actually a really compelling thought. I haven't thought about it like that. I haven't had anybody else distinguish it like that. But there is a difference, I think, between those two. I think a journey is about, we're making a choice to go somewhere and we're going to make decisions about how we get there. A ride is, okay, I might get on at the beginning, but after that it's kind of in the hands of the gods, right? How much control have you felt over the last four years?
Rick Brim (05:54):
I just want to clarify. That wasn't intentional, but actually when you play it back to me, that's rather good! At times, none. I think in the early days, I felt no control whatsoever. We were going into 2020 as a collection of people here really strong with some great work, with some great opportunities on the table with some great things happening. And then it wasn't, and it did feel like a ride. It did feel like you were, we were all in it together, and we were safe, well, we weren't safe, but we were all in it together. And so it felt, it did, it did feel, I really enjoyed that first six months because I liked the ingenuity of it.
I liked the problem solving nature of it. I'm like, okay, we have to pivot from this to this. How do we do it? And how do we do it with as much fun as possible? And all that, I mean, in work, but also in private. Like, how do you socialize with your friends? And we all did the quizzes and we all did that, and I really enjoyed that. And I enjoyed the sort of like, mend and make do of the situation. And then you go into year two and it was like, okay, this is annoying. Are we in lockdown? Are we not in lockdown? We don’t know what's happening. Business was starting to open up again, and you started to see the cracks of businesses that weren't necessarily opening up again.
And you started seeing across the world, the work that was being put out a dip. You started to, the first year, you didn't see a dip. The second year, you started to see a dip. And the third year, you most definitely saw a dip. And so not in control at the beginning, frustrated that you should be in control, but you weren't on certain things, and you're desperately grasping at trying to be in control. And then as we were going into the third year, starting to see some shoots of life, but I think the third year was our hardest year, because that's when we really started to feel the effect. And then this year, it's been really cleansing. We've had some seismic changes as a business and as a creative within that business and as a creative leader within that business. Some thing's really got me really, yeah, really got to me. And some things you just let wash over you. I don't think I've ever felt fully in control. There's been moments of control, but there’s different degrees of control, frustration at lack of control, and then an abandonment of, like, well, we can't control this. So that's why at the beginning when I was saying various degrees of emotions around this, because it shifted and changed so much.
Charles (08:43):
And my sense now across the board generally is that people in your position, people in positions like yours, have more sense now of control, but perhaps less clarity about what to do with it, given the complexity of society, culture, how we're feeling coming out of the pandemic. So we've gotten agency back, but we're not sure how to apply that agency. Does that resonate for you?
Rick Brim (09:08):
Yeah. Yeah. I think I can only talk from the perspective of my view from inside this agency. My view of what I see wider in the industry, but without deep knowledge of what's going on in other agencies, you only see the output and you know, what's going on in this agency. Internally, I think the one thing that really has bothered me a lot, and I think has really affected our work in the middle period, was, and it sounds like such a glib word, but I do think it's an important word, and it's fun. And the lack of fun that was being had, and that's not pizzas on a Friday. People were just not having fun - in life.
There was no, there was no, there was no real fun being had. People were trying to adapt. People's living situations were complicated. People were, I think, overcompensating for what was happening by going, “Well, our quality of life is way better because we don't have to go into the office.” And I think the pull towards that is a way of overcompensating for what everything's been through. I mean, that's my personal point of view. I think there’s a very strong sort of, that's the thing. I can control my work life balance, that that's the one thing I can do because I can't control anything else. And with with the lack of fun in especially the creative environment, it's just not as freeing.
it's just not, things just don't flow as easy as they did. And that's the thing that got me most down personally, because all we have in our industry, I truly believe this, and all we have, especially the creative leader, there are loads of talented creative people out there. There are loads of people with great taste. And there are loads of people with not so great taste, but energy and drive - not drive, because that's a really sort of lame word - energy. The ability to walk into a room and be a radiator, not a drain. The ability to walk into a room and lift things up, and have jokes and make people feel special about what they're doing. And that is, that's that I would say that's 75% of the job for any creative and creative leader. And that was so hard. That was the hardest, bit hardest. And that's… and I'm not sure it's fully back anyway yet. I think people are very nervous about how they do that.
Charles (11:44):
I hadn't really ever thought about it through this lens before, but let me offer this and see whether you hate this, but you are a very… there's a physical presence to your leadership. I mean, you're a big presence. You walk into a space and people are conscious that you're there. You bring a lot of energy. You create tremendous warmth in people. How have you had to adapt that or use that in a world in which you are not with people as often and as regularly as you were before? I mean, you're in different spaces all the time. You're doing more of this stuff. We're on a Zoom today. How has that affected you?
Rick Brim (12:16):
By making very misplaced, ill-judged jokes across Zoom. (laugh) And one thing I have learned is, comedy doesn't work the same way, when you're on bad wifi in different time zones or different parts of Northwest London.
Charles (12:35):
But timing, timing is everything.
Rick Brim (12:36):
Yes, timing is everything - that's one lesson I have, about when there's a silence needing to fill it, and then everybody feeling way more awkward than they did before. I have become increasingly more aware through not being with people, that actually was my, and is possibly one of, I'd like to think it's one of my things. Yes, I am a big physical presence. Yes. It's something that at the beginning I struggled with a bit. I don’t know how to make people feel as motivated as maybe I could if I was in front of them.
Charles (13:20):
Have you adapted that?
Rick Brim (13:22):
Yeah, I think, yeah. Yeah. I think it's funny. It is strange. It feels so strange talking about COVID and working from home. And now, because I was talking to somebody yesterday here going, “It's not an issue here anymore. We're just getting on with it.” And everyone's adapted to working. And we've got a very clear but flexible policy. And yes, they get the… the first people are like in uproar and people are like, “This is amazing.” And now everyone's just getting on with it. And you can see it in the product that ultimately the product shows what's going on it. I'm a big believer in that. And you can see it in the product. I'm really excited about a lot of projects.
Again, I'm starting to feel it, it's funny, and it sounds a little bit sort of, I don’t know, it sounds a little bit hippie dippy, but there's a physicality to getting excited about what we do. I definitely feel that if I hear an idea or I hear something that makes me excited, you can feel it. You can feel it. And I feel like a sort of an adrenaline, not in a massive way. But you do feel it. You feel it, you feel an energy. And last year, somebody told me something and I felt that sort of thing, and I realized I hadn't felt that for a while. Mm-hmm. And, actually, what's happening now is I'm feeling that more and more.
Charles (14:49):
Is that true? Regardless whether you're with them. I mean, can you feel that over those?
Rick Brim (14:54):
Absolutely. Yes. Absolutely.
Charles (14:56):
And from a practical standpoint, how often are you in the office these days? Have you guys got a policy?
Rick Brim (15:01):
We have a policy, but it's really loose. So we are on a Natalie named Four and Flex. So it's kind of four days with flexibility. I would say in reality it's more flex than four. Because no one's there with a register, and everything that we worried about, how we're going to do calls, how we're going to do, everyone's just made it work. Everyone's just thrown themselves in. I mean, we had an agency meeting yesterday, and it just felt, it felt great. People were there. Not everybody was there, but some people were on the phone. And it just felt light. And it felt like it should feel. And that was great. And everybody walked away from it going, “Whoa, that was great.” And that's all you need. People walking away feeling energized.
Charles (15:57):
And why do you think it's working for you guys? Because obviously a lot of companies are struggling with that kind of connectivity organically, but it sounds like you've kind of are cracking the code on that. Why do you think it's working for you?
Rick Brim (16:08):
I wish I could give you the answers. I don't know. I think we came up quite early with it. I think we have a group of amazing people here that's just made it work. There was an initial shock to it. And there were rumors of fist fights in pubs about, I think it's great. I think it's barbaric, but I think everyone's just gone, right? Cool. And because nobody's in trouble, if they're not in it, and some people will be in two days a week. I'm sure some people won't even come in all week. But there's people here that are five days a week. So I do think it's not a case of a big overarching rule. We have to have an office space so people feel comfortable doing what… they can feel comfortable in doing the work.
So if people want to be in an office five days a week, we can provide that. If people want to dial in to every call, we can provide that. And you won't be judged. What will be judged is the output. So if the output's suffering, then we would look. But the output isn't suffering. We've had a really turbulent year, a really turbulent year, well, in terms of business creative. Creatively wise, we've had a good year. And it needed people to dig deep to deal with that, both emotionally and to fill gaps with clients leaving. And it's happened. If it hadn't happened, then we'd have to go back and address, is this working or is this not working? And so that's why I think the flexibility as opposed to the four is the more important word. But it's weird trying to get talent in because when you tell people that, they're like, “Oh, no, no, no.” And then you go, “No, don't worry about it. (laugh) We're not going to be, you know, it's not like a factory where you clock in and clock out, and don't worry about it. Just come work and you'll find your rhythm.”
Charles (18:14):
Your focus as a company on the work has always been to the forefront. I mean, you've always been defined through that lens as much as any agency in the world. I think within that context, your relationship with John Lewis was probably the best known client agency relationship. I'm just curious from an emotional standpoint, because as that relationship ended, how did you navigate the emotional side of that, and how did you help other people navigate the emotional side of that? Because there's the separation after that length of time, and with that much mutual success, regardless of how it came about, there's still an emotional dynamic you have to go through, from a leadership standpoint. How did you navigate it yourself, and how did you help other people navigate it?
Rick Brim (18:51):
It was one of the things through COVID that I personally was most scared of, because I felt it as a client, they defined us because it was front page news every year. Everybody had an opinion on it. The biggest shows in the UK would talk about it, it would be a global conversation. I mean, it was an incredible honor to be part of it, because I don't think I'll ever be part of anything like that ever again. I think it was a moment in time and it was an incredible honor to be part of it. And it's like a really good party. It felt like a really good party. And through COVID it was hard. It was hard because you are the tallest poppy, and people are angry and upset and sad, and you've got to judge the nation accordingly.
And actually it was hard. But that's what I personally loved about it. How do we do it in a way that moves it on, but also judges the mood of the nation at that moment. And coming into this year, the thing that I think we feared most happened, and we got the phone call that could we meet. And it was a hard conversation. Your first reaction goes, “Oh, okay, well, this is it.” And there were things in the conversation that made it easier to make the decision that we made. I think we've always prided ourselves as being a partner and a very tight partner, and being described as a supplier was a little bit fair from their point of view, because we are a supplier.
But also we walked away and we're like, we've done that. We've done it. We will always be part of that. They're an amazing company. And you know what, maybe it's time. You've got to leave the party before you get too messy. So it just felt like a right thing. But it was a very hard, quite broad conversation between myself and Tammy Einav, who's our CEO, and Martin Beverly, who's our CSO, and the account team about, what do we do? We've agreed this, but we've got to consult with the business because it's, yes, we've agreed. So we sought counsel in a lot of people within the agency, and we just agreed there.
And then to be very, very transparent with the agency, very transparent, because we realized the destabilizing effect of this could have been catastrophic to the momentum we were starting to see. So it was through communication. We held a meeting the minute we found out and we told everybody, “This is happening. We don't know what we're going to do yet. We'll keep you informed and we'll keep you up to date.” And then it actually broke in the news and we were like, okay, we need to make, it's not fair on John Lewis. It's not fair on us. We need to make a call. And we said, okay, look, that's the call. So about about two hours later, we got the whole agency back into a meeting and we said, “We've decided not to go for it.”
And we played a reel, we had a very quick reel cut of the work, and we were like, “This is what we've been part of, and we will always be proud of this. And you've done this and you've made this.” And it is kind of like we then put it in a box, put a bow on it, and put it on the shelf. and okay, well, what next? And, but it was a nerve wracking experience. Because we didn't know how people would react. And people reacted brilliantly. There was a surge of energy through the agency. It is almost like, okay, that's a very definite decision, and it's been taken with people's welfare, the business, the right things in mind. And yes, it'll be a financial trauma but the right decision was made.
And I felt sad because that was a great thing to be part of, but I felt very proud that we made that decision and amazing things have happened since. And then we’ll always be part of it. But that was the story of it. And it was one of the hardest decisions as a leader of an agency or somebody that helps run an agency, that I think we had to make.
Charles (23:51):
I would say in real time, that's a case study in leadership. It's also a case study in humanity. I mean, to take that emotional dynamic that was at play, I mean, all those different emotions that must've been coursing through all of you. But to deal with all of that, with that kind of insight, with that kind of wisdom, with that kind of thoughtfulness, with that kind of maturity, calmness, the ability to step away from it far enough that you could actually see what was the right thing to do, and then to be able to present it back to people with that kind of confidence. I mean, it's such a case study in leadership. It really is. People just don't do that. But for lots of reasons. I mean, to have a piece of business that is that acclaimed where you've contributed so much to it, and it has been such an important part of your creative reputation and your business foundation. I mean, it's a reflection of kind of who you are almost, as a company and as a set of individuals and in an industry in which all of that is celebrated, and winning new business is difficult, and having that kind of profile is very rare. To be able to walk away from it with that kind of maturity is exceptional.
Rick Brim (24:54):
One of the things we spoke about in that sort of clenched meeting was respect. And how do we do this within the most respectful way to absolutely every individual involved? And I'm saying we, the conversation was very much led by Tammy, who took the initial phone call. And it was respect for a brand that we loved, and actually, not loved - love. I think I will always have a soft spot for it. It's given me a lot creatively, and amazing times and some stories that I will tell for years to come, bore everybody with (laughs), and it's a brand I respect. It's a brand that I look at. I do that because it would be part of ways, I think, I'm nothing but wishing them well.
But mainly, how do we do it for respect for our people? And how do we go through something? Do we want to go through a pitch? When kind of the last 14 years have been a pitch, and what new things are we going to bring because, so it was very much, how do we respect every single party involved in…. And I'd look to claim that. But it was a collective thing with us, with Tammy and Martin.
Charles (26:22):
One of the other things that's changed for you is that you are much more present in America. The company is, has grown and expanded and evolved. That's a challenge that some people face when they get to your position. How have you found that? What have you found about that that has surprised you?
Rick Brim (26:40):
Pass. No, no. I'm still, I'm, again, that's the rollercoaster of emotions. I'm still in the very much, the thick of that, on a most romantic level, on the top romantic level. DDB was where this all started. And the thinking of Mr. B, is still you…. It's funny, my whole time I've been part of adam&eveDDB has been there and you are sort of spat out Bernbachisms, to a point that they just sort of wash over your head. But actually with this, I felt a kind of respect and a need to dig into them. And the basic creative philosophy that he had is as relevant today as it will be in 40 years times, treating people with respect, treating people, like, not lying.
Like, there's some, being interesting. At first I felt the weight of that, I really felt the weight of, this was his. And then there's the weight of adam&eve, as well. I'm very protective of what's been built here from the early days of when the founders set it up, and then they sold it, and then being given it and very much being like a custodian of that. And then building on that and taking in a direction that I wanted to, and together with the team here. So very protective of that. So the two things coming together, is difficult, but yet very exciting. And then, you have that first phase, like, this could be amazing, and this isn't.
And then there's a reality phase where you go into a building and there's two very, very, very different cultures together. And everyone's getting on really well. And then you're still in the, this can be amazing. And then you start to dig deeper. And I spent the summer there, and you start to dig deeper and you start to find really amazing nuggets that you didn't expect and kind of rocks that you didn't expect. So you find things in amazing, very unexpected places. So I think I've described it before as moving into a house and opening a room, and there's a load of rubbish there. But in amongst the rubbish is a masterpiece. It's very much like you're clearing things out and you're looking at things, and there's amazing finds and there's things that just need to be sort of readdressed, and we're kind of in that phase at the moment. And so that, that's very exciting. But one thing that I am really enjoying is it's not really been oil and water, as much as I thought it would be. Not because, just when you bring anything together that's so defined, it's not as been as an, as oil and water, as I possibly expected at the beginning.
Charles (29:54):
I think merging cultures is perhaps the hardest part of leadership.
Rick Brim (29:58):
So hard. Yeah.
Charles (29:59):
Really difficult. And your description about forging, one thing out of that reminds me of Michelangelo's quote about the David, and he was asked, “How did you create that from a solid block?” And he said, “I just took away everything that wasn't the David.” Which I've always loved as a reference point for creating something new.
Rick Brim (30:14):
I’ve never heard that. But that's a great—
Charles (30:16):
It's wonderful, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. I don’t know whether he said it, and if he did, he probably said it in Italian.
Rick Brim (30:22):
Sounded a lot better than that.
Charles (30:23):
Exactly. What about from a personal standpoint, managing multiple offices is a whole new dynamic. I found when I was doing it with our film editing company, it started to be like three-dimensional chess and everything has multiple implications. How have you found that, just on a personal basis? What's the dynamic of that like for you?
Rick Brim (30:42):
It's tricky because I'm a little bit like, what's the fish in Nemo when it's in front of you? I'm like, “Oh my God, this is when, when it's in front of me, it's the most important thing ever.” And then I'm like, and I will do this. And then all of a sudden it's like, “What's that over there?” And so that I find difficult (laughs), because that's just my style. And it's, that is a journey and that I am working on. So as I said, I was in New York in the summer and, so it was all sort of like, whoa, this is full throttle here. And obviously I'm now back in London. It's like full throttle here.
And then people are like, hello. So that is most definitely a journey that I am, I'm working on. And the difference is, in London, there is an amazingly talented and incredible team that we all work together in. I'm a real big believer of the sort of gang mentality of sort of it being a group of people that leave instead of, as opposed to, so if one person, me or someone else, has to go to New York, nothing falls over. That's really important to me. And I think what I'm doing in New York is trying to get that, as well. So we function as a global gang. And I'm just trying to find the right people there, at the moment.
So it is a little bit in no man's land in terms of the structure, and I am most definitely very present in New York in terms of work and clients, but it's forming that gang of people globally. I look at companies like Wieden’s, and they've done it so well. They always have this group of people that if you took one person out, you would never notice. I'm not taking one person out as in like, see you later. But like somebody has to go and do something else. You would never notice because there was this shared belief, the shared vision with so many different talents and skillset sets within that. And I'm a big believer in that. And maybe that's a way of hiding behind stuff because I don't want adam&eve to be an agency that is about a singular character.
Charles (33:14):
I mean, Wieden are an interesting reference point I've always thought, because they obviously are, have always been filled with personalities. You can't have a company that's successful, that is not right, is not filled with personalities. But to your point, they're an ethos-driven business. I mean, Dan and David Kennedy established an ethos very early on which each succession of senior leadership have taken and expanded and extended. And so that's the thing at the end of the day, that actually does carry that company through, I think on a day-to-day, month-to-month, year-to-year basis.
Rick Brim (33:44):
And I think the one thing for me is, I'm not saying that we should, can't have characters because we have to have—
Charles (33:48):
Yeah, you have to. You have to. Yeah.
Rick Brim (33:50):
I think that gang only works when there's very varying and interesting and different characters within it. But there has to be a shared belief and a shared want of doing great work in as much as, not enjoyably, because I don't think it's about enjoyment, in a… as exciting way as possible.
Charles (34:23):
And I think to that point, I mean, your John Lewis story is founded on the fact that in a crucial moment, you guys found a shared ethos, which was respect. And I see so many examples where leadership really works when it's ethos driven, because it allows you to put the emotional part aside actually, and just make difficult decisions with much more clarity.
Rick Brim (34:43):
What surprised me about the John Lewis thing is we all had the same point of view, and it really showcased that there is an ethos. And that sometimes when you don't think there is moments like that, we all looked at each other and go and went, “We can't do this.” And there was never, no one tried to convince somebody. No one who was like looking maybe out the financials would go, it was like, no, we can't do this. And it was a moment of clarity of like, okay, there is an ethos here. Because sometimes, the ebb and flow of the business can be so quick and yeah, it's getting quicker and it's getting harder, and budgets are being slashed and people are moving, and you can forget that. And in a moment of clarity, there was a moment of clarity where we all just looked at each other and was like, “We're not going to do this.” Half expecting the other people to go, well, well, and that's when we kind of knew it was like, yeah, thank you very much. We're not going to do this.
Charles (35:53):
In an industry that is prone to ups and downs all the time, I mean minute by minute, how do you navigate trying to find a kind of a through line through that? Because, as you said, what the thing that's in front of you is really exciting, and then you can get emotionally invested in that, but you've got a responsibility to such a wide swath of people now and different responsibilities. How do you navigate the ups and downs of this business?
Rick Brim (36:20):
It's really hard. It's hard. I had a week this week where you walk in and it almost feels like a film where you're driving down the road and the traffic lights turned green and you're looking around going, who's filming me? You have one of those days and you go home and you're elated and it's the best thing ever. And, the kids go, there's the dad, there's the dad we like. And then you go and the next day, and you have one conversation, and then you bounce another conversation and you bounce another conversation and it's a phone call. And it's the complete opposite. And I think this is actually going back to the question at the very beginning. I think COVID taught you to deal with that.
I think beforehand, I would've been up and down and all over the place. And I've spoken to a lot of other people in different agencies about this, and that's how I would've been before COVID. But COVID got to a point of where you were just a little bit like, c’mon what have you got? C’mon. Just throw everything on me. I'll take it all. Come on. And it just, it really helped that, personally it helped me level myself and view things objectively and calmly. And it sounds like such a sort of, it's only advertising. It's only sort it, no one's going to die if a client walks out the door, fine, another client will walk in or we'll try our hardest for another client to walk in.
And that most definitely has changed. I used to fear everything. I used to fear. I used to fear work not being good enough. I used to fear what happens if the client just walks out the door? What happens if we stop being relevant? What happens if, and COVID has, the one thing that's good that's come out of COVID, is that has most definitely lifted that. And beforehand, there was a mania to what was going on. There was a mania of, I need to be here. I need to do that. I need to do this. The point, how do you manage to manage offices all over the place? And it was being on flights, and the grounding this of COVID, being at home, getting to know my kids properly as human beings. They've gone from children into adults, and getting to know them and liking them and laughing with them. And that groundedness really was something that I was quite nervous of coming out of COVID to go back to. So with the New York thing, I would rather go for the summer with everyone meaningfully, than in and out. Because I don't think that's sustainable.
Charles (39:25):
If you could roll the clock back and meet yourself at 35 years old, 40 years old, what would you tell that person today that you wish you'd known then?
Rick Brim (39:35):
Nothing is ever that bad. Nothing will ever ever be that bad. And I think that is one thing I have learned over the… so the big question at the beginning, this is answering all, that's one thing I have learned. Nothing is ever, ever that bad. I was so scared of - and I still hate it now - of talking to people about, this place might not be right for you. Or that was my biggest fear. My biggest fear professionally. And nine times out of 10, it’s been the best thing for them because it, that those conversations don't mean that you are not talented or you're not excellent. It just means that things have shifted and changed. And there's some amazing stories of people that left here during COVID that have set up production, I mean, amazing stories of success and flying.
And that's a lesson. Nothing is ever that bad. Nothing will ever be that bad. This is just work. And we're very, very lucky to be doing what we're doing. It's a very fun industry. It's a big, this industry can give so much when it's good, when it's good this industry can be so powerful. And it is so rewarding. But with that comes, this comes this fear. And, I think there's a good fear, and I think there's a debilitating fear. And unfortunately, debilitating fear is more pronounced at the moment.
Charles (41:13):
So as a wrap, at the beginning, you said at the end of that answer that you become clear about the person that you want to be. Who is that person? Who do you want to be now?
Rick Brim (41:27)
I think that, if I start by saying, I think this industry gives a lot to people, and I think it can give a lot to people. I want to be the person that facilitates this industry, giving a lot to people and giving and making sure that everybody's different. And everybody has different needs, different wants, different sort of things that, that make them tick. And I think this industry can house all those people. And I want to be that person that can do that.
And that's not from a hippie kind of way. That’s how you get to the best work, and that's how businesses succeed. So if you have people who feel fulfilled and feel rewarded, that business will do better work, that better work will attract better clients, better clients will do better business with you. So it's not like a, I want to teach the world to sing it. It's very much a, I want to make this company that I'm in at the moment, or any company I'm ever in, be a place where whoever comes in, big or small, feels that they can have, has a home to be who they want to be and do the work they want to do. It's, again, not to quote Wieden’s too much, but it's that you come here to do the best work of your life, and we'll create an environment where you do the best work of your life.
And I thought that used to be about the mania - not the mania that makes me sound like…. I'm using my hands again on the podcast, so I realize that doesn't work. (laugh) The sort of raw energy, and I spoke of a lot energy, but like, the sort we have to be doing this, this, and this. I think it's more about, a bit more measured and a bit more, that making sense?
Charles (43:33):
Yeah. Maybe not. Yeah, maybe not. Is there anything—
Rick Brim (43:34):
And there's some confusion, I just want to be really confusing. (laughs)
Charles (43:42):
No, but I think the idea of having that much generosity for what happens to other people, is a distinctive reference point. Is there anything you think might get in the way of that?
Rick Brim (43:53):
I think generosity is a really interesting thing, because I think people talk about generosity of spirit and it can, it… and this is not to… generosity, yes. To make people, but it's good for business. You hear sometimes of agencies where people go, “Oh, it's a great place to work in. Oh, it's so much fun.” But the work is not good. So it's not about being generosity, it's not about being, making a place where everything just feels happy. It's about making a place where people feel safe to be the best.
Charles (44:30):
Yeah. You can be intentioned and generous at the same time, right?
Rick Brim (44:34):
And I think, there's a very big difference in that. I think you can be generous all the time but it makes good business sense to make people feel special and make people feel energized that they've got the ability to say what they want to say. I did a talk in Cannes called, “The Wonder of What the F*ck”. And what that means is, it's, every business goes, oh, no, bad idea is a bad idea. And a brainstorm. They are, and actually that's not the case. But by creating an environment where that is integral, I think is massively important.
Charles (45:14):
And as a, this is truly the last question, but to be that person, is there anything you're worried about, that would get in the way, get in the way of you being that person or prevent you from being that person?
Rick Brim (45:25):
No, the business, the stresses on the business as a whole, not this business, but the industry, as a whole. You can only do it in the environment you are working in. And it will be a constant battle, because sometimes the business is about crushing that and efficiencies and so forth.
Charles (45:52):
I want to thank you so much for coming back on the show. You always bring so much energy, but I think the level of thoughtfulness that you apply to that energy is so distinctive. And I'm just grateful to you for coming on and sharing so openly.
Rick Brim (46:04):
No, it's always a pleasure.
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