Philippe Krakowsky of IPG
Has leadership changed you? Or the people around you?
"FEARLESS CREATIVE LEADERSHIP" PODCAST - TRANSCRIPT
Episode 210: Philippe Krakowsky
Here’s a question. Has leadership changed you? Or the people around you?
I’m Charles Day. I work with creative and innovative companies. I coach their leaders to help them succeed where leadership has its greatest impact. The intersection of strategy and humanity.
This week’s guest is Philippe Krakowsky, the CEO of IPG. He runs a company of 58,000 people across more than 100 businesses.
He worked at IPG for almost two decades before taking on the role in January 2021. He was known as the corporate shrink and the plumber. Deutsch New York even made a bumper sticker once with his photograph on it that read, “1-800-CALL-KRAKOWSKY. Got a problem? Call Philippe.”
Despite all this, despite knowing and being known by almost everyone, when he took the job of CEO, he noticed that some people suddenly changed around him.
“But there's a subset of people who show up differently. The fact of that modest shift has clearly done something. And then it's odd because then I go, "Oh, it's human nature." Because I don't know whether I'm disappointed that it just happens that way, or if I'm a little disappointed in the people who are showing up differently and all of a sudden there's a certain amount of theater and stories told that aren't entirely, you know, like, how about just, back to, "Hey, show up with reality, we'll figure it out." But there's definitely a change.”
Philippe, as you’ll hear, is human and a realist. His mantra, ‘Hey, show up with reality and we’ll figure it out,” struck a chord with me.
Too often, leaders over-complicate. Sometimes, the situation. Sometimes, themselves. That’s not surprising. Leadership is complicated at the best of times. And it’s really easy to lose perspective.
Step into a highly visible leadership role, and you are rare indeed if you are can hold on to a clear understanding of your strengths during the first few months. Typically, you become hyper aware of your perceived weaknesses, and it can take a long time to regain your self awareness and confidence that got you the job in the first place.
But, even more challenging is what often happens to those around you when your new role suddenly changes your org chart relationship to them. When you now hold the power.
That’s when your ability to overcome your own uncertainty becomes critical so that you can evaluate their behavior towards you objectively.
Only then can you hold them to account. Only then will you have the confidence to ensure that they speak their truth to your power.
How do you do that? How do you make sure you’re focused on their performance and not yours?
Well, having a leadership philosophy goes a long way.
Looking for an example? “Hey, show up with reality and we’ll figure it out,” is a pretty good place to start.
Here’s Philippe Krakowsky.
Charles: (03:17)
Philippe, welcome to Fearless. Thank you so much for coming on the show.
Philippe Krakowsky: (03:21)
Thanks for having me. It's a pleasure.
Charles: (03:23)
When did creativity first show up in your life? When are you first conscious of creativity being a thing in your life?
Philippe Krakowsky: (03:29)
Wow, Charles, that's a great question. I'd say one of two things. My dad was a very, very talented illustrator and artist. So when you're a tiny little kid and your father can sort of bring things to life that way. And then I loved to, and still continue to spend a lot, a lot of my time reading. And so I think storytelling and narrative was a big thing for me from the time I was pretty young, as well.
Charles: (04:01)
How did you express yourself growing up?
Philippe Krakowsky: (04:04)
I read a lot. I wrote a lot. I played music poorly because I'm related to pretty good musicians and I would sort of tag along, but it's not my forte.
Charles: (04:15)
What did you write about?
Philippe Krakowsky: (04:18)
I wrote… I wanted very much to write mysteries, which is, you know, when you're a kid is not so easy because you realize you’ve got to think through a lot of stuff and really block it out.
Charles: (04:31)
I always wanted to write a thriller that you would buy at JFK, and you'd read on the overnight flight to London. And you'd get to London and you'd land and you'd have 60 pages left and you had to read it in the cab on the way to the hotel because you couldn't put it down. I always thought that was the definition of success.
Philippe Krakowsky: (04:43)
That one always appealed to me. There was definitely a moment in time when I very much wanted to be a writer of mysteries or thrillers.
Charles: (04:53)
Yeah. Storytelling, I mean, obviously, is such a powerful part of the human experience, but we were saying earlier that, you know, the world is moving so fast and unpredictably and it's one of those things that I think tends to get lost if we're not careful, the ability to slow down enough to actually be able to discover and tell compelling stories.
Philippe Krakowsky: (05:10)
But it is, I mean, it's so core to who we are as human beings, right?
Charles: (05:13)
Yeah. It's one of the things I think that the death of a queen has really brought home. And one of the things I I've loved about watching the coverage, especially from the UK, is people coming out and telling stories about her that we had never heard before, and just starting to create some color around her personality. And I think we feel, I certainly feel more, even more drawn to the country and to her and to the experience just by understanding, through story, who this woman really was and what she was about.
Philippe Krakowsky: (05:40)
And I mean, the other thing it's… I mean, I… and my connection to it is not that of somebody who's part of the Commonwealth, but you watch the coverage, as you said, and there are just commonplace people who came across her and interacted with her for two minutes, and yet a connection happened, and they've taken away from that something which moves them and which they'll remember 50 years later.
And I've always believed that in order to lead people, you truly need to know them. I want to know who they are and what they care about and what they do when they go home and where they came from and what they've lived. Most really good leaders, I tend to find, understand how important the human being side of leadership is.
Charles: (06:35)
Did you learn that over time? Did you observe that? Where did that instinct come from? Where does that recognition for you come from?
Philippe Krakowsky: (06:43)
That's a great question. So there has to be a native predisposition to find that nourishing or to find that valuable, right? Because again, it's a huge part of what I enjoy about what I do and why, in doing what I do, I get energy and juice from something that at times can be very, very demanding. So I think there’s one part of it.
And you can come at that from being empathetic or from liking people as it were, but I don't think it's just, are you extroverted? Because I'm sort of somewhere in the middle. I think you have to be curious. I think you have to enjoy learning stuff, right?
Charles: (07:27)
Yeah.
Philippe Krakowsky: (07:28)
But then to your point, I think you have to have seen where it impacts people. I mean, I think for me, an interesting epiphany came when, at a senior enough level in an organization, not being motivated de facto or per se by, "Oh, I want the next big job." Or, "I went the job that has this title." Or, "I want.…" Somebody said to me, "No, no, no there's room for people like you, and you'll do well at this because leadership is just making people excited about being part of it. Leadership is engendering a sense that people want to be on your team."
Charles: (8:09)
And I think your point about the fact that there are different ways to do it is so important, because I think there has been such a perception for a long time that leadership had this sort of very demonstrative, high energy, enthusiastic, almost over the top, let's go, seize the ramparts kind of mentality. And I think clearly that has never been true, actually. And it certainly has not been true for some period of time. And not to over index on the death of Elizabeth for this particular conversation, but I do think it's fascinating to reflect on her life and the impact she has clearly had. I mean, tens of millions of people, hundreds of millions of people, I think, who are very, very powerfully moved by her death, but also by what she did and who she was and how she showed up.
And that was relatively undemonstrative, and yet she engendered enormous loyalty. It feels to me like what she did more than anything else, was show people that they mattered to her enormously, that she was interested in, genuinely interested in their wellbeing. That that's really, was the primary concern she had and trying to be a reference point for them. Does that resonate for you as a reference point in terms of leadership?
Philippe Krakowsky: (09:17)
Absolutely. I mean, you know, as you said, I think that there's this archetype of leadership that is either extremely demonstrative, or in a corporate setting there's the assumption that there's a hierarchy and that the person who sits at the top of the hierarchy is going to be a set of things, is going to be loudest voice in the room, is going to take up a lot of the oxygen. It's funny, right? Because, of course, when you're in certain roles, you have to be decisive, but you don't have to project that in a way that is at times, you know, either, "Hey, this is the stereotype I'm supposed to live into it."
Or, you know, the stereotype has led to a lot of people being in those roles who are actually pretty insecure. So the way that they then cover for that is by being very loud. I mean, I think that sort of quiet and understated works just as well. And I think it will work better going forward because I think people are changing, and they see through the leader who pounds the table or demands a certain kind of attention.
So I think the archetype is changing. So I think if what you do is very difficult, then how you do it becomes more important, and then who you do it with becomes very important also, right?
Charles: (10:43)
Yeah.
Philippe Krakowsky: (10:44)
And so, as a leader, you kind of have to show that all those things are not just words, that there's actually some behavior behind it, and then consistency of behavior.
Charles: (10:57)
I don't think I've ever asked this question, coming directly out of that thought. I don't think I've ever asked this question. How conscious are you of how you show up as a leader in a given situation? Are there times when you think about it a lot? Are there times where something becomes a bigger priority for, to be conscious of this, it's important that I be conscious of the impression that I make in this moment?
Philippe Krakowsky: (11:21)
I think it's a great question. And here's what's funny. So as somebody who didn't say 20 years or 10 years before ending up in a role like mine, “That's what I want to do or must do.” And even three to five years before, when there was a moment in which there were a couple of folks who were being considered for a role like it, and there was an interesting process that kind of began that involved spending some time with some folks who did some sort of assessment that clearly had a psych component to it. The question that I had was, if I can end up in that role and continue to be who I am—
Charles: (12:08)
Mm-hmm.
Philippe Krakowsky: (12:08)
—then I'm interested in the role. So, yes, I'm aware of how I show up, because I didn't want to compromise certain things about how I'm comfortable interacting with people. But one of the topics that came up in the tail end of that journey, was this idea of executive presence. And I remember spending a lot of time going, "What does that mean? Like, is that really a thing we're supposed to.…" So I feel like you're best served as a leader or on your leadership journey, figuring out, “Okay, who am I, and what am I strong in? Why is it that the people that I like to work with are the people that like to work with me?”
Now that's going to mean that you have to sort of assess the bits that you're not as strong in and how you're going to either deal with them, if that means you're going to be, you have to be more visible in certain ways, or if that means, you know. Or you're going to find a colleague or two that fill some of those gaps. Where I'm much more aware of how one shows up when one is in a specific role such as this one, is I think you have to kind of keep in mind how, when you're in a quite senior role, people will look at how you show up and even the things you say, and read into them far more, perhaps, than you realize.
So I think that ahead of becoming a person who's in a very senior role, there's the, "How am I showing up and do I want to keep showing up in that way? And how is the rest of the organization going to have to be okay with that? And also, where am I going to need to stretch myself or have a colleague or two who fills in some gaps?" Once you're in the role, I think you just need to just moderate, because however it is that you express yourself, whatever it is you get enthusiastic about, the impact of how you show up is much greater than you realize.
Charles: (14:21)
Were you surprised when you took over the job by how much more impact you suddenly had, even in the smallest ways? I'm always fascinated to watch leaders move into positions and suddenly go, "Wow, I rolled my eyes and the impact of that lasted a year."
Philippe Krakowsky: (14:36)
No, I think that having had versions of the job that were quite analogous to the job ahead of having the job, and having had some of that be about strategy, but a lot of that be about the people and the talent and the team-building piece of what we do, I was fortunate in that I think I had a lot of both the building blocks, but a ton, a ton of relationships that ran very deep and were very trusting and went back enough that.… I think the thing that I have found most interesting and, at times, I mean, it's a human nature thing, is that the people who I work with know me very well.
I think from a style point of view, there is clarity around, “Come with reality and we'll sort it out,” as opposed to, “Come and tell me a bunch of things that are, you know….” There used to be a joke in the job I had just before the job that I have now, that I was the corporate shrink and plumber.
Charles: (15:49)
(laughs)
Philippe Krakowsky: (15:51)
So actually the thing that surprises me is that, quite a few of the people who are part of our organization show up in exactly the same way. And so that, yes, my role has changed, and therefore there is no other arbiter or authorityb but they're comfortable and we are comfortable and we get it how we like the rhythm of, and the way we can be the most productive.
But there's a subset of people who show up different. And the fact of that modest shift has clearly done something. And then it's odd, because then I go, "Oh, it's human nature." Because I don't know whether I'm disappointed that it just happens that way, or if I'm a little disappointed in the people who are showing up differently, and all of a sudden there's a certain amount of theater and stories told that aren't entirely, you know, like, how about just back to, "Hey, show up with reality, we'll figure it out." But there's definitely a change.
Charles: (17:01)
To the differential side.
Philippe Krakowsky: (17:04)
To the differential or to the, you know, (laughs), you know, there's a little less, frankness or a little less willingness to cop to…. You know, and it's funny, because in a meeting I've never minded if somebody says, “You know, I don't know the answer to that." I'm okay with that. I'd rather have somebody say, "I'll go find out," than say, “I can't lose face in the room or with my boss or…. And therefore I will come up with an educated, or actually, way out of left field guess.” So it is, it's deference but it's also kind of gaming of a system as it were.
Charles: (17:44)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I think you're right, it is human nature.
Have you said anything to those people about, “You’re different suddenly,”?
Philippe Krakowsky: (17:53)
I have wrestled, because, back to your point, then about, you know, with some of them, I think that there's a sort of robustness in terms of who they are that I can say, you know, "Hey, what's with that?" But there's others where if I went at it that directly, I think it'll have—
Charles: (18:16)
Yeah.
Philippe Krakowsky: (18:17)
... you know, less than perfect…. So I sort of say, “Well, what if we just kind of went to the core of what's really going on here with this team or this client situation? I don't think that, we're as clear on the dynamics of the business circumstances, or why we're tripping on this as a team and we're not working together as well as we should,” as the way to point out that I don't think that what we're getting is that clarity, and we'll see, you know?
Charles: (18:54)
It's a bit of an example of one of the attributes of leadership that I think gets left behind quite often, which is, the ability to read the room, and the ability to adjust and adapt to the audience in front of you. And, to your point, what this person can hear and handle is different from what this person can hear and handle. Even if you philosophically are looking for the same reference point, i.e. 'let's just bring truth and we'll go from there.
Philippe Krakowsky: (19:15)
Well, you know, I think the other thing that's really telling and you must see this a lot given that, obviously, you've both been in large organizations and you help people think through how they're going to be successful, is that smart matters a lot, but it means a lot of different things. And you just said, “Reading the room,” and I think it's interesting because that emotional intelligence is really, really important. And the nature of what we solve for in a world where increasingly we try to bring together creativity and technology and data and science, I almost feel like it's extremely rare that you find somebody who has the breadth, who's sort of a polymath. So more and more what you need is groups of people with complimentary skills. And so then somebody who's an orchestrator, who can be the conductor, is really, really important. And, you know, everybody loves to be the person who plays the totally virtuoso, three minute, you know, saxophone riff. But then the drummer in the back, who's been kind of just keeping the whole thing motoring along is really important too, right?
You need that, that read the room, sort of understand what motivates people, keep the team dynamic strong thing a lot.
Charles: (21:01)
You said a few minutes ago that moving into this position meant you are now the final arbiter. Do you like that? Because not everybody does like the fact that suddenly there is no safety net.
Philippe Krakowsky: (21:14)
It's funny, somebody said to me not long ago that the being the number two, if you're a certain kind of number two who gets a ton of authority and has a lot of power to actually make stuff happen, is something people prefer, precisely because, to your point, then the net is that there's one other person, right? When ultimately asked whether I was interested in the job, having not had it be a thing that I was adamant about and fixated on for, you know, a multi-decade career, and knowing that it was going to have to be a, “Okay, it has to be somebody who's wired like I am, and they have to decide that they're willing to go outside of a paradigm, and that their definition of leadership is one where it's somebody who isn't about limelight and isn't about kind of pounding the table.”
But I think what it came down to for me was, if you've done something for a long time and you think you're pretty good at it, then there is a degree to which being the person who makes the determination that is going to be yay or nay, or we are going to go down the left hand path or the right hand path, I think that has a certain appeal. I think there's a level of competitiveness involved where, you know, you end up saying, "Hold on a minute. If they're going to pick somebody, they should pick me."
And I think that's kind of a healthier side of the ego bit than the, "I want the job because of what comes with it”, that is externally focused. But a big driver for me was our people, and the fact that I'd worked with a bunch of them for many, many, many years at this point, and that, you know, you feel a sense of responsibility at that point to your colleagues, to your clients, and to a bigger organization. And you do want then to be the person who can decide yay or nay, so that we can be best positioned to support our people, give them opportunity going forward, help our clients be successful, win.
So, yeah, I think that there was a point where that became clear that that was going to be part of leaning in or raising my hand and being in a position to be chosen. So yes, I think it's something that I'm comfortable with, but there was a moment where you should ask yourself if you are comfortable with it.
Charles: (23:50)
So what I'm hearing you say is that without hubris or ego, you generally thought, "I'm the best person to do this job, and so therefore I have a responsibility to do this job."
Philippe Krakowsky: (23:57)
I would hope that that's how you end up being… that stepping through that door, that's the mental math or the reckoning that you've done with yourself, right?
Because if you haven't, then it's a shame, right? Because then…. Funny, I learned something very interesting from a mentor and somebody I worked with many, many, many moons ago, relatively early in my career, who's still a very dear friend. And one of the things he said to me is he said, “Look, in a business that’s about ideas, where we have to have the ability to go forward with a creative idea, which is a scary thing to do and which often leads to people telling you no and shutting you down. And in a business where we persuade, and therefore we stand in front of a client and give them our best counsel and advice, I mean, you have to have a strong ego to be successful in that world.” But then what he said to me is, “What you will find is incredibly powerful, you'll see that a lot of people who are really, really successful, but also pretty okay with themselves as they move along, is they have the capacity to have that level of ego, and yet to be really, really measured and thoughtful about when and how they deploy it. Then there are people who can just sort of, you know, fold that up. Like it was a piece of paper and stick in their back pocket. And then they get on with their lives, and then it comes out again somewhere along the line. But a lot of people in our world just kind of, it's out there all the time and it becomes messy."“ And it was just a really interesting and fascinating and terrifically, good piece of advice. And so I think as you say, I think it is a part of leadership roles. it's a part of conversation, or a reckoning you have to have with yourself. And it is how you need to go into whatever that next role is with that sense of conviction, which then doesn't mean that you don't, you lose the ability to go, "Okay. So that's part of why I'm here and that's part of the thinking that went into my choosing to be considered or vying for a role like this. And now I'm going to put it away again so that I can actually be a better leader." But in that moment, it's definitely kind of central to the journey.
Charles: (26:30)
Yeah. Certainly my experience is that people who are chasing leadership positions for the opportunity they represent for them, the ego satisfaction or the economic benefit or the profile, are rarely successful, and almost never sustainably successful unless they quickly understand, oh, the only way for me to be successful is to make this about everybody that I'm here to serve in some fashion, right? You have to get that very quickly. Otherwise it's—
Philippe Krakowsky: (26:56)
Very well put.
Charles: (26:57)
—not going to work.
Philippe Krakowsky: (26:58)
And yet many people get either distracted or addicted to all of the bits that come with the job, right?
Charles: (27:09)
Yeah.
Philippe Krakowsky: (27:10)
They get distracted because they can then sort of flex and push their weight around, or they get enticed by the economic side of it, as you said, or it becomes a platform and that visibility and that access and all of those things sort of begin to… you lose some perspective either on yourself or on reality, or you just start to like that stuff too much.
Charles: (27:39)
Yeah, I think that's absolutely true. And the other example you sometimes see, that I sometimes have seen, is that people get into the position and suddenly are afraid, because they suddenly realize the implication of the role and the responsibility of the role. And I had somebody say to me a number of years ago, "What if I'm wrong?" And I said, "Well, you're going to be wrong, but they're betting that you're going to be right more often than anybody else is." And I think—
Philippe Krakowsky: (28:05)
Great advice.
Charles: (28:06)
—right? And there was liberation, I think, in that piece of advice, because they suddenly realized, "Oh, okay."
Philippe Krakowsky: (28:11)
And look, I think that's great advice. And I think the other piece of advice is, you're going to be wrong and then you're going to course correct.
Charles: (28:18)
Yep.
Philippe Krakowsky: (28:19)
And then, everybody's wrong and everybody then has to sort out what they do in the 2.0 and the 3.0 of whatever that decision was, that the first time out of the gate wasn't quite right.
Charles: (28:34)
Yeah. And I think you made the point earlier that finding people who compliment you and who fill the gaps is a critical part of this. And I think the most effective leaders are the ones that are self-aware. They find the right balance between fear of, "I might be wrong", and recognition of, "This is not a particular skillset of mine. Let me find somebody who brings that element to this equation, so that we can actually drive this business forward holistically."
When you took this job, you did it at, I mean, an unprecedented time. It was January of 2021. As I'm thinking back, we didn't even have vaccines then, right? Where we were still in the very depths of the pandemic with no respite in sight, with no pathway out of this thing in sight. There was hope, I guess, that vaccines would come online, but nothing had happened, no proof that they would work. How did you step into the role in that moment? What were your priorities as you took over?
Philippe Krakowsky: (29:25)
Well, I mean, it's odd because obviously I had been in the COO role in '20. We announced that the handover would take place also in '20. It was fascinating because there was such immense, there was both uncertainty and just sort of palpable epic levels of anxiety. And what was most instructive to me about '20, which then goes to answer your question about taking the role full-on, was that we were living a… as business people, the questions tend to be, “So what are you going to do about all of this economic upheaval and uncertainty?” And everything stopped, right?
So you hit stop on the economy and then you're sort of running around trying to figure out, are there furlough programs, are there ways governments can help us make sure that we can keep our folks? To what extent and, you know, it's a decentralized organization, but we have at least an over arching culture or set of values that inform the many cultures.
So there was a lot of, what would people be willing to do? And what kinds of salary cuts would people be willing to take at senior levels, again, so as to... You can't mitigate forever. But the big light bulb for me was that we were dealing with all these questions that had all of these economic ramifications around, you're running a business in the middle of just an unprecedented, as you said, period of bedlam.
But at the end of the day, all of the questions really end up being about, are our people okay? Are our people okay? Are our people okay? What can we do? So we went to remote at that moment in time, within weeks, and were very fortunate because of the nature of the business that we have and being in an IP business and a service business, where therefore, what we're about is what our people know how to do and what lives sort of between their ears. And so we could go to 95% remote inside of a couple of weeks.
So it was really, really clear that the priority was, how do we just help all of our people or as many of our people if it starts getting wonky, because you also had people from other parts of the world calling in and saying, would there be the capacity to deliver modestly less profit, if that meant that we could go buy oxygenators on the black market. And, I mean, it's just insane, right? Because you're kind of going, "Well, I want to be sure that as many of our folks in your market are okay as possible."
I don't want us to be talking about your doing something that actually takes you into the black market for medical supplies because A, on a human level, I'm not sure that's… I mean, I get it that it comes from total desperation, but you're probably going to be taken advantage of. And I will do a lot of things to help you, but I don't know that I can do that to help you, in the context of the relationship that we've got within an organization like this one.
Charles: (33:03)
Yep.
Philippe Krakowsky: (33:03)
So instead, why don't we frame it up this way. What does it take for folks in your market to get dramatically better access to standard issue healthcare? Because it's probably de minimis in a dollars and cents way, and therefore they'll then be able to get access to things…. So you were having conversation upon conversation, and they were all about some dimension of human crisis. So then when I end up showing up, and to your point, okay, you're in the job. And ‘21 was interesting because we'd made it through '20 dramatically less impacted than our peers, because we do have a different business model than our peers and because we also are flatter and less about hierarchy and are very supportive of the underlying cultures of the businesses that make up our business.
I think that was a real strength. People felt connected to a culture, and therefore, there was less a sense that they were going to be abandoned. But it's been a lot about, what do we do to keep our people feeling together? So, to your point, until vaccines, it wasn't even a question of, let's get folks back in physical space where they might be worried about their wellbeing. Interestingly, once vaccines happened, it will benefit from being together as a creative enterprise, but in order for that to happen, you must have a vaccine. Because I want to take the onus of, “Am I going to be safe?” off of the individual?
And then there were some people inside of our organization who really took umbrage with the fact that we took a strong position on the fact that, in order to be in an office setting, you were going to have to have one. So there was some interesting, you know, snarky emails from some existing and some ex-colleagues like, you know, “Who made you a public health official?” It's like, well, actually nobody, but the deal is that, you know, we look after one another, right?
So, it's, as you said, it's taking a job like this in the middle of this, you know, is definitely…. I talk to people who've had jobs like this for 20 or 30 years, who are in the media owner space or who are in a sector that's adjacent to ours, they’re a client or who are business partners of ours. But, I mean, they're people who've been doing this for, you know, 20, 30 years, and they all say, there's literally nothing that they've lived through that is remotely akin to these last two and a half years.
And so in a sense, that's also somewhat heartening and liberating as a leader because you're not sitting around going, "Okay." You were making a point earlier about, you have to make the decisions and then you have to know that you're going to get some of them really right, and some of them sort of right, and some of them wrong, and then you're going to have to figure out. But it was interesting because, talking to a couple of folks like that and having them go, "Never seen anything like this,” was actually very helpful, because then I didn't sit around and go, "Okay, by not having done this for 20 years, what am I missing that I should be doing different in the middle of this crucible?" Because I've had other people say to me, “There's nothing I've experienced that is relevant or useful here.”
Charles: (36:53)
Yeah. It's shone the brightest light on leadership that any of us are likely to live through, because I think it exposed a lot of people who are following somebody else's playbook or a pre-written playbook. And then it also showed people who were willing to step in and actually lead, because to your point, they were making original decisions. They were confronted by situations that nobody had ever imagined. There was no rule book, there was no pathway. There was simply, how do you bring your best judgment and your experience to make the best possible decision for the benefit of your people? That was the only criteria, right?
Philippe Krakowsky: (37:23)
And what's interesting is that it compounded, right? Because then as a leader, there was the pandemic, but then there was all of the things that it then shone a light on, which were then exacerbated by events in society at large. Whether that was George Floyd, whether that was January 6th, whether that was the invasion of Ukraine. And so in a sense, it does raise questions about the degree to which, in a world where so many of the folks who work in organizations have a set of expectations that are probably different by virtue of how they take information on board, the level of transparency they expect, how engaged they expect organizations to be, more broadly, the idea of multi-stakeholder capitalism.
You know, people are looking to the organization they belong to, and therefore to a leader, to actually have a point of view about, and/or help them, or help us collectively, take this stuff on board.
Charles: (38:38)
Yeah. People will be writing books about this for decades to come. I'm conscious of our time and I'm conscious we could have an entirely separate conversation about building creative businesses, and maybe one day you'll indulge me—
Philippe Krakowsky: (38:49)
Yes. We'll do another—
Charles: (38:50)
—you'll indulge that—
Philippe Krakowsky: (38:50)
We'll do another version at some point whenever works, yes, for you.
Charles: (38:53)
So let me ask you a couple of wrap questions for this particular conversation. How do you think you're seen? How do you want to be seen, from a leadership standpoint?
Philippe Krakowsky: (39:02)
So I think fairness matters to me, which doesn't mean that people have to agree with all my decisions. It just means that I want them to appreciate that their perspective or their point of view will be taken on board and heard.
And that when a decision is made, if it's not the one that they were rooting for or hoping would be the outcome, if they want somebody to explain to them why it is that we netted out where we netted out, but that then the expectation is that they're going to come along for the ride or not, if they choose not to, that's a whole other thing. But so I think, transparency and fairness feel to me like they're important to me. I think being able to do it without pretense, and with some ability to keep a sense of humor and a sense of perspective about where any of our, all of our limitations are. I think that matters.
Charles: (40:01)
And as you look back at your career so far, clearly it's not close to being done yet, but as you look back so far, do you have any regrets?
Philippe Krakowsky: (40:11)
It gets very inside baseball. I mean, there were one or two kind of interesting moments in time when you go, "That would've been interesting, or hmm…." But no.
Charles: (40:25)
And what are you afraid of?
Philippe Krakowsky: (40:28)
Wow, that's a great one. I mean, one of the reasons why the 20% of people who maybe are now BS-ing me bothers me, is that I think you don't want to be.… It's concerning to think that the role begins to insulate you from reality. So I think I worry about… You know, I've always just wondered about and gotten into stuff, and that's given me a ton of really, really good, real time information about the business, the client needs, the people, where and how things are changing as a result of tech, et cetera. So either your time being spent too much elsewhere, or people insulating you from reality, I think that's a big fear.
I think just having enough people around to kind of call your BS so that you don't end up liking the trappings of the gig. I mean, I'm somewhat fortunate in that regard in that my significantly better half does something that is so different and so much closer to s— I mean, you know, it's sort of keeping, losing perspective, the losing perspective thing. That's another thing, I think, is hard not to worry about.
Charles: (41:59)
Your wife's a priest, I read, is that right?
Philippe Krakowsky: (42:01)
Yeah.
Charles: (42:03)
Well, that's definitely cause for another conversation. I would love to know more about that.
Philippe Krakowsky: (42:05)
Yeah, she's a theology professor and a priest. And so when she's dealing with people, it's about stuff that is so existential that then, you know, you're kind of like, "Oh yeah, well, we do.…" It's not unimportant. And it's very important to our people, to our clients, doing it to the best of our abilities. But when people then are sort of at the losing their mind or losing their… you're kind of like, no, actually.…
Charles: (42:31)
Talk about the power of context.
Philippe Krakowsky: (42:33)
Yeah.
Charles: (42:34)
Thank you so much for joining me today. I like to think that this podcast talks about the intersection of strategy and humanity from a leadership perspective, and I think this is a really good example of that. So thank you very much for sharing.
Philippe Krakowsky: (42:45)
Great, great conversation. Thank you. Enjoyed it.
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