Neal Arthur & Karl Lieberman of Wieden + Kennedy
What kind of company are you building?
"FEARLESS CREATIVE LEADERSHIP" PODCAST - TRANSCRIPT
Episode 204: Neal Arthur & Karl Lieberman
Here’s a question. What kind of company are you building?
I’m Charles Day. I work with creative and innovative companies. I coach their leaders to help them succeed where leadership has its greatest impact. The intersection of strategy and humanity.
This week’s guests are Karl Lieberman and Neal Arthur. They are respectively the Global Chief Creative Officer and Global Chief Operating Officer of Wieden + Kennedy.
Few companies have reached the creative heights of Wieden + Kennedy. None, that I can think of, have sustained those heights for most of the last forty years.
Karl and Neal stepped into their global roles seven months after the beginning of the pandemic. How do you lead a culture opposed to rules through a time when there are no rules?
“I think we're resisting the urge to build a specific business right now, because there's so much opportunity for an open and flexible business. And so we spend all of our time right now trying to figure out, how do you create a really strong foundation of creativity and culture that then can manifest itself in lots of different ways.” - Neal Arthur
The leaders of creative businesses are usually adventurers. They relish the fact that accepting the ambiguous and the unknown are lines 1 and 2 in the job description.
But, as human beings, we are all comforted by the familiar and the known. Even the adventurers eventually turn for home.
And yet, if your goal as a leader is to meet the future in a fair fight, then welcoming ambiguity and uncertainty are no longer enough. Turning for the safety of home will leave you behind.
Creativity is the world’s most powerful force. It’s time to build flexible businesses that unleash it. It’s time for leaders to let creativity loose.
Here are Karl Lieberman and Neal Arthur.
Charles: (02:12)
Neal, Karl. Welcome back to Fearless. Thanks so much for coming back on the show.
Neal Arthur: (02:16)
Thanks. Absolute pleasure to be here.
Karl Lieberman: (02:19)
Yeah. Thanks for having us.
Charles: (02:21)
What have the last two years been like for you guys? What's different two years later?
Neal Arthur: (02:26)
Ooh. You’re going to start with that. Well, let's see. I mean, a lot has changed. I think when we talked last, we were running the New York office.
Charles: (02:36)
Yeah.
Neal Arthur: (02:37)
And now we're in global roles. And it has been a fascinating time to run an organization, generally, to be a leader, generally. It's tested, it's kind of brought about all sorts of new skills. Karl and I joke a lot that it's weird to kind of do a job where so much of what you do every day is not what you're qualified to do. And that's what the pandemic has forced us to do. And at first you kind of look at it and go, I have no grounds for taking on any of these things by being a health expert, or by being somebody who can manage groups through crisis.
But, I think in the end, it's made us all better. And that's not to speak of obviously the clear downsides and tragedy that has come with this time. But I think we've kind of leaned into it, and tried to use the time to really think about our leadership style. And when I say that, I don't want to paint the wrong impression that there's anything methodical about it, but I think where we've… we've found a way to try to be ourselves, instead of let the job dictate who we become. And that's been probably the most interesting thing. I think a lot of what we do now is kind of, what's the most honest and authentic answer or response I can have to this? And that's helped us a lot. I don't know if it's made us better or worse, but it's definitely been the thing we've held onto.
Charles: (03:59)
Karl, what’s surprised you?
Karl Lieberman: (04:03)
Well, I would say everything has surprised me over the last two and a half years. I think the biggest challenge is just getting comfortable with the idea that you don't know how to do anything. That's probably uninspiring to anyone who might work for us, but you spend so much of your career in advertising, kind of learning the way of things, and having the handbook that you turn to and lean on and reminisce about. And the last couple years have been crazy, because there's just nothing that's happening in the world is in the handbook. And so every day you're having to sit down and be like, all right, well, this, I've never seen this happen before. How would I, as an employee, want this to be reacted to? How would I, as a person, want this to be reacted to? How would I, as a client or consumer or whatever. Like, you're constantly having to put yourself in other people's shoes trying to figure out, what's the best way forward? Versus, oh right, I know it happens when nobody comes to work anymore. You know, or, I know what happens when a client pulls all of the work off air, or I know what happens in any number of insane things that we've had to collectively deal with. So I think the biggest surprise is that there was no owner's manual at all.
Charles: (05:37)
Wieden has been known for years as an extraordinarily creative business. Has it helped to have people inside the business who are instinctively disruptive thinkers as you've met this time? Do you think that makes it easier or harder to lead a company through the kind of chaos that we've lived through and are living through?
Karl Lieberman: (05:59)
I think because of that, because it's, you know, been led by disruptors and is filled with disruptive thinkers, I think the place has kind of always thrived on a certain level of chaos. I think the last couple years have been a more emotional level of chaos, like a more personal level of chaos for people for a whole variety of reasons. But I think the people in this place were probably best suited for that, versus people who spend their life entrenched in rigor.
Neal Arthur: (06:31)
Yeah. I agree. It's like, because we've always been light on process, and this isn't been a time that has had process, you know? And so I'm hesitant to say that it made us better or worse, but we were certainly comfortable in it. Our agency meetings were always, like, everybody trying to figure it out in real time and in their chaotic shit. But it was interesting. And you have a bunch of people who have a point of view, and that the debates that would happen around, if we come back to work or whatever the thing was, debate is so central to Wieden and Kennedy, that all of a sudden we were having those debates about real world things, as opposed to things that were core to our business.
And it was just really awesome, so the way it would kind of tend to work is like, rather than Karl and I standing up and saying, “This is what we're doing.” We'd say, “Hey, so back to work, huh?” You know, and then it was just like release the hounds. It was like everybody weighs in. Everybody has perspective. And what was interesting, we would reach, I'm not saying we'd reach answers, but we'd reach conclusions as a group, rather than mandates, which was super cool. And we've been really proud to watch this place every time not be afraid to step up and express themselves to have an opinion, to have a debate, and then ultimately find a way to reconcile it with what's best for the collective body, which has been cool. Karl and I, I think in many ways has got a chance to kind of watch, and be inspired by that dynamic.
Charles: (08:09)
How do you draw a line under that? Because when you've got that kind of debate, that kind of ferocity of belief, you know, enormous intellectual capability, enormous creative capability in the building, at some point as leaders, you have to stand up and say, “Okay, now somebody has to make a decision about we're doing this versus that,” because, to your point, at every moment, there have been choices, because there have been no rules, right? You could have done anything you wanted to. How have you known when to step in and just say, “Okay, we have to draw this conversation to an end and actually decide,”?
Neal Arthur: (08:41)
It kind of happens naturally. You know what I mean? Like I'm not saying that everybody agrees, but there is a collective energy that happens. And that maybe that may be a byproduct of a culture that's so used to the debate that it also knows that a debate isn't zero sum, that it knows that that in the end there's a collective energy around an idea. And so it's not like the time for the debate ends and it's like, ah, and we jump in and go, “The point goes to this side.” It's really like, after everybody's kind of had the forum, and be able to talk and debate about things, the collective body is really good about understanding what's kind of best for everybody. And I think it's not because it's a concession, I think it's because it's actually the process of hearing others. That's what happens, you know, is like the process of hearing other perspectives then starts to lead to more singular conclusions. So when we talk about future of work or working remotely or whatever, it's like, once you hear the different perspective and where people are coming from, it's kind of like the conclusions start to become self evident. It's like, okay, well, we're not going to make a mandate that everybody has to be back for five days a week. We're not going to make a mandate that people have to be back for three days a week, because that's not what we're hearing from people.
And then there are times when you have factions that have different needs. Karl and I talk about this all the time. We say flexibility is everything, you know. And it's like create policies or create sort of opportunities to be flexible. Find solutions that allow for group A and group B to be happy. I think what we run from is the idea that we are some sort of monarchy or definitive authority that comes in and says how it's going to be. And this is the way it's going to go down. Because we're just finding it's so much more interesting and the answers are so much better when we create the space for other people to talk about it and figure it out.
Karl Lieberman: (10:26)
What's cool about Wieden and Kennedy is, if there is a single authority, it's the idea of the place. So the conversation becomes… the conversations always around how do you best serve the idea of the place. Which is, there's all kinds of different iterations of how people say it, but it's like the best work of your life or great work that makes an impact on culture, great creative environment, whatever the language is around that. The conversation is, “Okay, if it's about when we come back to work or if we come back to work, it's not about, do I want to be in the office or not? It's not about, does management like if people come to the office. It becomes about, well, what's best for the work?” And it's nice because that's just a different conversation. It's still subjective, but it doesn't have as many different motives in the debate because everyone has the same motive, theoretically. Everyone's like, all right, yeah, what is best for the work? And that's been really helpful over these last two years is, how do you preserve the idea of Wieden and Kennedy and what it's supposed to be while navigating these crazy waters we find ourselves in.
Charles: (11:40)
So has the work been the reference point for you throughout the last two and a half years? I mean, obviously the first six months of what we've all lived through were crazy, right? Where you were literally dealing with, you know, existential threats. We didn't know who was going to get this thing, who might die. We were hearing terrible stories, experiencing them in some cases. Was the work always the reference point through all of that for you guys? Or were there other things that had to take precedent to begin with?
Karl Lieberman: (12:03)
No, it definitely came in stages. I mean, the first thing was, how do we protect this place? Its people and our clients. That was the first priority. This thing still needs to be standing in a few months’ time. And then slowly over time shifted, to make sure we're focused on the people, making sure the culture's right. And then when we felt like that was in a better place, then getting everyone back focused on the work. But it definitely had its stages. But yeah, anyone who was running around on that first week of the shutdown, yelling about an edit, you know, they sounded pretty out of touch. So we've tried to be in touch with, how do you keep Wieden and Kennedy alive and well through all these changes, while making sure we know that we can get back to the original idea of why it exists in the first place.
Charles: (13:00)
And Neal, you made this point earlier, but you were not only dealing as a pair, as a combination, as a leadership team with all of this, but the two of you were also stepping up into global roles. How did you navigate that at the same time?
Neal Arthur: (13:16)
Well, I guess the first thing is, I think we were unclear and unsure of what a global role even needs, you know. It's one of those things that, when it's said it has like heft, but it's kind of unclear. It's like, so wait, so what does that mean? Like I travel a lot? What does that mean? So we didn't really know what we were walking into, if we’re being honest. I mean, we weren't sure if it was going to take all of our time, a fraction of our time. We weren't sure if it was ceremonial in nature, if it was, you know, was really active. So the first thing was just kind of figuring out, what does it mean to be global?
And I think one of the things that we realized is that's kind of a trap to think of yourselves as kind of global. Because the idea of being nameless and faceless and disconnected from any one place is kind of the worst thing. And, I think what we've realized is that thinking about it, like this kind of figurehead role with broad oversight, isn't very useful. But thinking about how you can start to be helpful in solving problems in, the network specifically is helpful, So it was like, all right, if there's a problem in one office, then, we can maybe use some of our experience if we're lucky enough to help in that way.
And the more specific we got, the more, I think, useful we became. But I think that was kind of the first transition, is like, you know, you start and you're like, all right, so global now. I don't even know what that gets you. Like, I don't know if that gets you into a different, airline lounge or something. But when you put in practice, I think we realize that the more specific it is, the more specific that you can make it, the more connections that you can make personally to people in offices, and then try to be helpful in specific things, that's where there's an opportunity to have impact.
Charles: (14:58)
Did COVID help actually, perversely, in that regard, because everybody was basically stuck at home and on Zooms? And so could you connect more easily on a global basis than you might otherwise have been able to?
Neal Arthur: (15:10)
Some ways. And Karl, challenge me on this, but it's like, there's kind of a bit of an artificial sort of connection. It helps in that you can make a connection that isn't just on email, for sure. But I don't think it's a substitute for seeing people, spending time with people. And so I think it provided a shortcut, an easy entrance point, you know, that was helpful that we wouldn't have, you know… we got to meet people from other offices all around the world in a shorter amount of time than we would've normally. But you still realize that there's no… this isn't some sort of future of work statement. It's just kind of like, you know, there's still… like you're missing… I think, like, to think that that's the real connection that will suffice, I think is flawed. I think us spending time in offices is actually really helpful.
Charles: (16:05)
I have conversations all the time, Karl, I'm sure you do too, with people who say exactly what Neal just said, which is that you have to be in person at least some of the time, if you're going to actually really unlock creative potential, creative thinking, like collaboration, that the inspiration being around each other. Is that where you are, as well?
Karl Lieberman: (16:23)
Yeah, I think doing a year plus from a global position on Zoom probably made our lives a little easier in some ways. It made us more efficient. We probably got more done. But I think it definitely made us worse at our jobs. And you'll hear people say, “Well, a global in Wieden or any kind of institution can feel a bit like the Death Star. And I think Zoom didn't help with that. Cause you are… you're the Death Star. Like you pop up, you do a bunch of stuff, and then you disappear, versus being in the office, being around people, people seeing good things about you, the flaws about you. But it definitely can feel a little bit like that Apple 1984 ad at times, it just like, who is this guy? What is he doing here? So I'm very relieved that we're being able to get back into offices and getting back into being in physical spaces and around people.
Neal Arthur: (17:28)
And so let's talk about why. Because again, I'm going to separate this from a future of work conversation, because it's not actually about kind of any sort of policy about being back. But what I do think is, I think that the nature of our business, in terms of creativity, I think for creativity to thrive, you have to start with a fundamental emotional safety. People have to feel safe. They have to feel they're appreciated for who they are. Not just because they've been endorsed on LinkedIn or whatever. And I think to convey true emotional safety, I think it's really helpful to have a physical connection. And so I think we've been able to talk about a lot of things where we want to go directionally, our ideology, but to complete the circle of, we know you and we believe in you as a person, I think you need to be able to have that connection, you know? And again, that can be formed in lots of different ways, but the physical nature of that connection is important.
Charles: (18:27)
So based on that, then what, what does the office become for you guys? what does the office represent? What does it mean now?
Karl Lieberman: (18:36)
Well, it depends. It depends. It's different. It's different in every market, but my hope for the office is that it becomes a bit more like the university campus, in that you can work in your dorm room all you want, and nobody's keeping tabs on when you're in the library or not, but it's there for you, if you want to go and study or meet with people or be inspired or figure something out. That's my hope for the office is that it's a place people feel like they want to go to, and that it has some usefulness, that it's not just a thing that you have to clock in and out of. Like, when I was in my early twenties, in New York, you would get the side eye from leaving the office before 7:30 at night, which is not cool. You did it, but that's not like a healthy relationship with an organization. So my hope is that it just becomes more like a magnet for people who want to do things and no one's really keeping track of that. And it just feels useful and vibrant. And when people want to be here, they want to be here. And when they don't, they can stay home, and that's cool too.
Neal Arthur: (19:51)
I think the thing we get most excited about is… and we have to give credit to the Amsterdam, is this language of, treat the office, like a community center. You know, it's a place where you want to go as opposed to a place you have to go, you know. And we really like that. We really like the notion that it's a place where it's a choice, not an obligation. And, for us, if we can create that dynamic, and in many ways have, all of a sudden everything gets more fun and more interesting. If “the office,” and I put that in quotes, is used in an additive way as a place to hang out and meet up with people and bang around and stuff, that's cool. And that's a future that I get more excited about than our past.
Charles: (20:38)
And do you guys think you have to be explicit about that with people? I mean, there've been a lot of conversations on this podcast over the last couple of months about changing the narrative around the office, from when you're in the office to why, which is essentially what you're both saying, that you were trying to give people a reason to come in the office, as opposed to telling them when they have to come into the office. And that seems to me to becoming kind of a more common theme among the most creative, progressive businesses, that people are shifting towards that lens. Do you think you have to get clearer about how you codify that? Do you think you can be super relaxed about that and let people find it organically? Or do you think you have to start thinking about tactically, strategically, structurally, how do we create reasons for people to want to come into the office? Where do you think you sit on that continuum?
Neal Arthur: (21:26)
Well, I can tell you where we sit. We sit on the more casual side of that continuum, because we hate anything that feels… and this probably comes from our own deep seated, psychological issues. I'll caveat with that. But we hate feeling managed and we hate managing, and we hate anything that feels like we're trying to, you know, kind of subtly, subversively push an agenda. And so I think our belief, and this may be incredibly naïve - I'll also admit that - our belief is that if we just believe that, and we act accordingly, it'll be cool. You know? And we cringe at like, “Hey, it's four o'clock happy hour. You don't have to come in, but it'll be fun.” You know, like that stuff makes us really nervous, whereas that's what Karl and I believe, that's the way he and I treat the office, like, he's in more than I am, but, like, I'm in for fun stuff. And hopefully it is just that our belief in that is kind of enough. Now, I'm sure that, you know, there are offices where the dynamics are a bit different, where it might be farther commute. Parking might be an issue. Things like that. Where we might have to be more, I don't know, creative in kind of creating the space and time for this approach to naturally take form. But we, we, we cringe a bit, honestly, when you think about, “Hey, let's manage people into this belief,” you know.
Charles: (22:57)
And do you think you'll start to use how much people come into the office as one of the ways you evaluate the quality of work? Like when you're looking at the work from different offices, and if you see an office starting to slip back, will the question about whether people are coming in enough be any factor at all? Or are you just going to ignore that entirely as a reference point, going forward?
Karl Lieberman: (23:22)
No. I mean, I think the work is the work, and anytime the work isn't great, we try to investigate what's getting in the way of that. I think it's harder to make work when everyone's remote, but we clearly prove that you can, you can make great work while everyone's remote. I worry more about people's growth, about morale, about bandwidth. I think there's a lot of things that are around the work that are really important to the longevity of great work, that being around each other can help. We find that when people can be around each other, typically the morale is better. But again that doesn't mean… that means people who want to be around each other, not people being forced to be around each other. So it's complicated. I think it's another vector that you're looking at when you're trying to figure out what's getting in the way of doing great work. But I don't think it should ever be considered the primary thing that you're interrogating.
Neal Arthur: (24:31)
But it's an interesting question, because I don't think that's a real… like, for Karl and I, we would never say, “Hey, it looks like people weren't in the office.” But what I think you could look at and go, “Well, is there enough debate happening?” Doesn't matter where or when, but are you really banging stuff around, you know. Do people feel free enough and safe enough to really speak up and have a point of view on X, X, and Y? That's the sort of stuff that, we think about, and we feel like shows up. That when you're looking at work from an office, it's not like, that's good and that's bad. And obviously I'm not going to talk about this, Karl, but I think it's more that we go, what sort of environment and culture is being created? And does that culture feel reflective of people being able to be themselves, speak their mind, and you know, really say some shit?
Charles: (25:22)
And just picking up on that. I hadn't thought about this before. But is one of the evaluations, therefore, do people know each other well enough? I mean, does that have to become one of the criteria going forward, that regardless of how they know each other, regardless of where they're spending time and doing that, do companies have to start thinking about their employees through the lens of, are we giving them enough reasons, enough ways to know each other? Is that becoming a factor?
Karl Lieberman: (25:47)
Well, it's funny to us because, we've had a bunch of agency and office events over the last couple of years, last year, especially. It is pretty wild. Like we'll walk in and it feels like half the people know each other and they're all new. And they're all really young. I don't… if someone wants to put in the chat or something, how that works, I'd love to know. Like, I don’t know how these people get to know each other. If they meet each other on Zoom, if they go hang out after work. But that level of familiarity still exists. I think it's not at every level, it feels more like younger people are finding ways to get to know each other. And then the more senior of us, maybe it's because we're working multiple fronts, you know, with work and with clients and our home lives. Yeah, maybe we're not having the chance to get out and meet and see as many people. But we've been shocked at the level of camaraderie that exists amongst people when there's no way they had a chance to see each other in person for months at a time.
Neal Arthur: (27:02)
I mean, one of the things that we're kind of always looking for is any sense of fear, you know. I guess it's probably… you're smarter than we are, Charles, I'm sure that's part of the name of this podcast. But fear is definitely the kryptonite to this place. And probably creativity generally. But that was the scariest part of the early days of this pandemic, is for Wieden doesn't typically have fear. We're independent. We have strong, we have beliefs, we've built on something that's really solid and established over time. But for a rare instance and a rare window, there was fear. It was fear of our livelihood, as individuals, as, you know, et cetera.
And it's crazy how, for us, that being kind of a foreign notion, you see how crippling it is, to really great ideas. And so I think that that was like a huge, like, oh, wow. That that's good to know, you know? And so it gave us a thing, probably the biggest thing, to look for as we assess how things are going. Is there any sense of fear? Like, fear that the leadership doesn't have my back. Fear that, you know, if I say this, a client will be mad. Fear that if I say something in an agency meeting that people will judge me accordingly. All these things. Those are all massively debilitating, signs of a larger symptom of what’s probably, again, kryptonite for us.
Charles: (28:31)
The question of fear, obviously, I'm fascinated by. It's been one of the through lines of this podcast for five years. And increasingly, I think it's the lens through… one of the lenses through which I look at my work. One of the things that is clearly evident here is that, Wieden has been a closely held company, it's how old now? 40 years old, is that right?
Neal Arthur: (28:51)
Yeah. Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Charles: (28:52)
So, the Lion of St. Mark Award has been given out, I think this is the 11th year. Two of those recipients are your predecessors, the original founder, Dan Wieden, and then your most immediate predecessor, Colleen DeCourcy. What's it like taking over a business from luminaries? I mean, literally iconic people who have figured loud and large in the history of the industry. Does that have any impact on you whatsoever? Does it inspire you? Does it make you anxious? What's the context with which you look at that history of the company through?
Karl Lieberman: (29:27)
For me, the whole thing is surreal. Getting a job here in the first place is surreal. You know, I spent the first part of my career trying to get a job at a place like Wieden. And then to be able to move to Portland to work on Nike is a dream. And then to work with all these amazing people was a dream. And then to be asked to move to New York to an office that wouldn't even interview me when I was a creative. I couldn't literally, couldn't even get an interview here and then be asked to come back and help run it was amazing. So it's just a continued stretch of living in disbelief. And not that... I don't remotely find it overwhelming, to be honest. I just am like, "Wow. That's crazy." (laughs) I'm just like, that's shocking to have this job and have that responsibility. But I never think of it, in any time, having any kind of role. I don't really ever focus on trying to follow who was in the seat before me or trying to worry too much about that.
There's this great Adam Grant quote, which I'll probably butcher but it says something to the extent of, you know, our job in the world isn't to please our parents and grandparents. Our job in the world is to inspire our children and grandchildren. That's how I always think about it. Like, respect the shit out of Dan and David and Colleen and John Jay and all those before us.
But hopefully, my job is to inspire the next person that comes and takes that takes this role, to do it bigger and better than me or anyone else has.
Charles: (31:31)
Neal, what about you?
Neal Arthur: (31:33)
I think it's just a funny question because it's like we just feel like we're so far away from being... What'd you say? Luminaries? That that isn't even the task, you know? We made the joke, in a trustee meeting, we were saying, "Hey, listen. When you're kind of following Michael Jordan, the best you can hope to become is Steve Kerr."
We got to watch him. We got to watch him. You know? We got to watch him play the game. We learned from all of them. And learned enough that we know that it's not worth our time to try and beat them. But, hopefully, maybe we can coach the Golden State Warriors, you know? Because we do get to... We feel very lucky that we get to be with this team that's incredibly talented.
And so, you know, for us, it's just more about that. It's can we… We've tried to be students of the game and to learn as much as we can, and hopefully be able to impart and share that with the others that we get to work with.
Charles: (32:39)
And Steve Kerr's legacy is pretty great. Based on what he said last week alone, if nothing else, right?
Neal Arthur: (32:33)
Yeah. Totally.
Karl Lieberman: (32:35)
Yeah. We'd be proud to be in that same—
Charles: (32:37)
Yeah. Yeah. Likewise. The world is going through massive change. Six weeks ago, I don't know about you, but I was sitting here thinking that streaming was the future of all entertainment. That Netflix was the golden god. That you should pour as much money as you can into Amazon because that was the future. All of that looks completely wrong now.
Top Gun: Maverick just opened with the biggest grossing weekend in movie history. I think most of us would've bet against the return of the movie theater. Certainly nine months ago. Apparently that's not true either. How do you look at the future of information, entertainment, communication? Where do you guys sit on the spectrum of where the future is going to be? What bets are you making at Wieden in terms of how you create culture?
Karl Lieberman: (33:20)
Neal's all about virtual reality. He is—
Neal Arthur: (33:24)
(laughs)
Karl Lieberman: (33:25)
—all in. VR. VR headsets.
Neal Arthur: (33:31)
(laughs) Thank you for that lead. I mean, I think… Karl and I are skeptics by nature, and we both have an inherent disdain for predictions. So we feel less surprised by the outcomes because we're less interested in the input. And the prediction.
So I think all that we're trying to do is to try to build something or to try to further something that stays as flexible as possible, you know? It’s the Peloton problem. If you build a business for the pandemic, you’ve got a business for the pandemic.
I think we're resisting the urge to build a specific business right now, because there's so much opportunity for an open and flexible business. And so we spend all of our time right now trying to figure out, how do you create a really strong foundation of creativity and culture that then can manifest itself in lots of different ways. And we know that there's been times where Wieden's been kind of typecast as like, anthem agency that does the big anthem things. But we're conscientiously and consistently trying to disconnect from the output, and then go, "Oh, no, like, there's just so many things that this culture and this place can make." And that's what we're most excited about. We think this business, the business of advertising, is going to get so much more expansive.
And we're going to find ourselves at the core of creativity in media and entertainment, instead of on the outside trying to figure out where we fit within it. So we get excited about that. And there's a lot of evidence about that already. I think, you know, flexibility is a big thing, is filling a dynamic, a flexible business, and then finding lots of different ways to manifest itself. We say that our thing is that, we use creativity to change the world. And it's like, what it means to change the world in 2022, 2025, is very different from what it would have been to change the world in 2010.
Charles: (35:29)
Karl, what about you?
Karl Lieberman: (35:33)
Yeah, I have a slightly different, probably exact same answer, but maybe slightly different explanation of it, which is, the place was founded on the disdain for advertising. So it didn't really know what it was, it just knew what it wasn't, which was just another ad agency. And the lore is that Phil Knight called Dan Wieden said, "I hate advertising but I think I need some." And that was what the place was founded on, which was, not being a typical ad agency, being a place where creative people, interesting people of all types, could come and do the best work of their lives. That's a pretty awesome remit through any environment, through anything the world might be facing. So whether it's streaming or Web Three, or traditional broadcast, or radio, or whatever, if you have that group of people willing to think about problems in creative and interesting ways, there's always going to be an endless source of problems to think about. So we don't have any real predictions about the future, but I'll always bet on a place like this having a place in the world.
Charles: (37:01)
You guys are at the height of your careers, you're certainly a long way from being done. Do you have any regrets at this point as you look back so far?
Neal Arthur: (37:11)
Oh. No. No. I feel like I've… you know, kind of echo some of Karl's earlier sentiment, but it's like I just feel incredibly fortunate to be at this place and have been at this place this long. It's weird, because I've never been particularly committed to things. I probably have imagined that the longest job I'd ever have was like, two years. So it's weird that I've been here for 17. And I think that's just because this place ultimately has allowed me to be myself the whole time.
So regardless of the job that I've had, or the account that I've been working on, or whatever, I've always been able to be 100 percent myself. And I think that, for me, is the end-all be-all, you know? And that doesn't mean every day's great. But I think that the ability to be myself the whole time has been amazing. So no, I don't have any regrets about it.
Charles: (38:20)
Karl, what about you?
Karl Lieberman: (38:23)
That's the conundrum, because yeah, I have, like, a million regrets. But I always think, for the most part, I feel like I'm always better off because of them. You know, the mistakes you make, the stupid shit you do, the things you spend all your time fixating on, "I wish I hadn't done that," that's always the stuff that, at least for me, it makes me better. I don't really ever know what I'm doing when it goes well. I kind of can only figure it out when it goes really poorly.
Charles: (39:00)
And last question for you both. What are you afraid of?
Neal Arthur: (39:03)
Oh, well, snakes is my—
Karl Lieberman: (39:06)
(laughs)
Charles: (39:06)
(laughs)
Neal Arthur: (39:07)
—immediate answer. That's my tangible answer. Somebody threw a snake at me when I was younger and it has terrified me to this day. I guess I'm just afraid of… I should probably get over this fear, you know, because it's not real. It's like, having to become something, you know? I feel like, in these jobs, and in this business, to start to become a caricature, you know? To become the idea of what an ad person is, or even what a Wieden and Kennedy person is.
And I really don't want to ever be that. You know what I mean? That's something I'm afraid of, is having to take on any of the trappings or persona of somebody who's kind of playing a role.
Charles: (39:52)
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Karl Lieberman: (39:53)
You get so numb in these jobs to fear that is hard to really pinpoint what is the thing. Like, you are confronted with so much bad news all the time that your mindset gets to the point that when you're not hearing bad news, you figure you're missing something really terrible.
Neal Arthur: (40:20)
(laughs)
Karl Lieberman: (40:22)
(laughs) So, to be like, pinpoint the thing, it's like, oh man. That's hard to pinpoint, because there's so many things I'm afraid of, but like, to the point where I'm almost not afraid of anything, because it's just kind of is what it is. That’s the water we swim in.
Charles: (40:41)
Well, and I was wondering, too, do you think the mindset of a company which is, push forward, explore, take risks, break the mold, chart new courses, do you think that, too, promotes that kind of mindset? Where, I mean, you don't have time to be afraid, right, with all of that. I mean, the expectations, the requirements of leading a business of this company is that if you start glancing over your shoulder, how can you possibly be successful?
Neal Arthur: (41:07)
That's a good point. Like, that's a really good point. Like, again, we just talked about it earlier. I mean, I just never connected those dots. It's like, we recognize that fear is the kryptonite of the place, so yeah, so then it doesn't leave us a lot of space to be afraid. I think that's a compliment that we get a lot. It's like, you guys just don't seem to get nervous about much. And it's not because we don't. That's not true. it's just not very productive.
It's like sitting there worrying about stuff isn't very helpful, you know? So, if we can kind of just kind of get on to getting on, we'll be a lot better off. It also helps, because that's not like, some sort of meditation exercise. It's like, we also just believe in the place.
Charles: (41:48)
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Neal Arthur: (41:49)
You know? The place has never let us down. That trust is earned. We've just… every time, we're like, man, all right, okay. And then Wieden just comes through, you know? It's not Wieden, generally. It's like, people specifically. It starts to reinforce this circular thing of kind of like, don't worry about it. Don't be afraid. It'll be fine. And then it is. You know?
Charles: (42:10)
It's a credit to the ethos of the place, isn't it?
Karl Lieberman: (42:14)
Totally. I can't remember if I mentioned this in a previous conversation, but there's a great part in Michael Lewis's Moneyball book where Billy Beane is talking about why he didn't necessarily have the right mindset to be a pro baseball player, and he's recounting the story about some pitcher who was just smoking everybody, striking everybody out. And Billy Beane is in the dugout with Lenny Dykstra, and he's like, "Man, this guy's killing everybody today." And Lenny Dykstra, chewing on a dip, spits in the cup, and is like, "I can hit him."
And Billy Beane was like, "Man, he just has what I don't, because I'm in such a reality, I know that guy's going to strike me out when I get up there. Like, I just… that's just facts." And he might strike Lenny Dykstra out, too. But Lenny is not aware of that. And that's what made him so great.” And the place does do that. It gives you a collective feeling of, nobody's going to strike Wieden and Kennedy out." So, you just have that confidence going into everything, and you are constantly entering into spaces where you should be afraid, so you don't have a lot of time to think about that.
You're just like, "Hey, we should be afraid."
Neal Arthur: (43:35)
And it does, it's passed along, Like, I think I shared with this with you, Charles, individually. But when I first got the job to be MD, you know, I was the Head of Planning, and I didn't know anything. I didn't know how to run a business. I was sitting there talking to Dave Lour, and I said, "Hey, so I don't know what I'm doing." (laughs) And he was kind of like… he was juggling his key because he was headed for the airport.
And I could tell that question was the only thing getting in the way of him just going on his airport— on his flight. And he goes, "Oh, well, listen, just don't worry about it. You’ve got to go to sleep and know that there's a lot of magic in these walls. And you’ve just got to give it the space to happen." And then he took off. And I was like, "What the fuck is that?" (laughs)
Karl Lieberman: (44:14)
(laughs)
Charles: (44:14)
(laughs)
Neal Arthur: (44:15)
But like, honestly, it's the best advice I was ever given. It's the advice that I give to everybody who takes on a leadership role. Sometimes you’ve got go to sleep and know there's magic in these walls. And then, and let it happen. That gave me so much permission, and what I didn't realize at the time, it modeled a behavior, it gave me a signal for what I'm supposed to do when I don't know what I'm doing.
Charles: (44:40)
It's a perfect summary, and a perfect wrap. I want to thank you both so much for coming on and sharing so honestly and so openly with what the last couple of years have been like in your journey at an extraordinary company. And I wish you nothing but success and the best as you navigate this uncertain future. And I can't think of a company whose ethos and culture is better suited to doing that successfully. Thank you both very much.
Karl Lieberman: (45:05)
Thank you, man. Really appreciate it.
Neal Arthur: (45:07)
Thanks, Charles.
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