Laurie Howell & Toby Treyer-Evans of Droga5
Where does your impact end?
"FEARLESS CREATIVE LEADERSHIP" PODCAST - TRANSCRIPT
Episode 202: Laurie Howell & Toby Treyer-Evans
Here’s a question. When you’re the leader, where does your impact end?
I’m Charles Day. I work with creative and innovative companies. I coach their leaders to help them succeed where leadership has its greatest impact. The intersection of strategy and humanity.
This week’s guests are Laurie Howell and Toby Treyer-Evans. They are Executive Creative Directors at Droga5 in New York and have been partners for a very long time. They have also been responsible for important and extremely impactful work, including the New York Times campaign called The Truth Is Worth It.
But as their careers evolve and the world changes, it is their impact on people in the immediate vicinity that has their attention.
“As we've developed, you become way, way more conscious of how your decision making, or the things you decide or the clarity you bring can affect the rhythms of everything. Like the way someone works, the way someone feels, the way they sleep, what their week looks like, and I think taking that responsibility for that is really important.”
It is a truism of the creative industries that the people who get recognized for coming up with the best ideas are eventually put into positions in which they are suddenly responsible for the professional well-being of others.
Not everyone navigates that evolution successfully.
And to add to the challenge, the bar has just been raised.
Today, it’s not enough to plan only for the professional development of the people that work for you. You have to worry about how their work is affecting their personal lives too.
To use Laurie’s language, how you lead affects the rhythms of the people that you lead. From how they feel to how they sleep.
In a pre-pandemic work-life relationship, the employee was responsible for adapting their rhythms to the needs of the job.
Today, when you take on a leadership role, the need to adapt the job to the person falls on you.
So if the question of what’s keeping your employees up at night isn’t keeping you up at night, perhaps it should - at least until you know the answer.
Here are Laurie Howell and Toby Treyer-Evans.
Charles: (02:30)
Laurie, Toby, welcome to Fearless. Thanks so much for coming on the show.
Laurie Howell: (02:34)
Thanks for having us.
Toby Treyer-Evans: (02:35)
Yeah. Thank you very much.
Charles: (02:37)
Toby, let me start with you. When did creativity first show up in your life? When are you first conscious of creativity playing a role in your life?
Toby Treyer-Evans: (02:44)
I guess I figured out quite young, that at school you could use your creativity to get out of doing the so-called academic stuff as well as you should be doing, you know, it gave you a lot of leeway. For example, if you wanted to write a song for an assignment on sedimentary rock formations, you could just get away with it. It distracted the teacher from what you were actually saying, you know, you could, you could just say, sing a song about, you could say sedimentary rock formation over and over again in a song, and probably get a half good grade for it. And I think that was when I really realized, the power of creativity, I think, and probably, that's when I started to lean into it.
Charles: (03:28)
How did you express yourself growing up?
Toby Treyer-Evans: (03:32)
Through the things that I felt I was relatively good at. So, music played a big part of my life growing up, so did sport, and so did art and design. And I think that was what I really lent into, and that's how I expressed myself. I think it definitely formed a big part of my character.
Charles: (03:56)
And Laurie, same question for you, when did creativity first show up in your life? When were you first conscious of it?
Laurie Howell: (04:01)
I think we were always, always making things at home. But really, I'd probably say food. I think, like, cooking. I mean, my dad was always trying weird things, like trying to cook salmon in the dishwasher or, you know, make his own ham in the shed. And I think that must have had like an influence on me. I mean, I still love it and play with it, and I remember being a kid and trying out simple things like sandwiches, but like the odd things, trial and error, you know, pride of finding that crazy combination and eating a winner, and I guess also wanting other people to try that too. And I guess if it wasn't that… Do you remember Fimo?
Charles: (04:44)
Mm-mm (negative).
Laurie Howell: (04:45)
So Fimo was like this plasticine that you used to put in the oven. And you used to make a model, and then when you were happy with it, you'd bake it, and it would basically make it into a rock solid thing. And I grew up in Bristol, which is the home of Aardman Animations, and—
Charles: (05:00)
Yeah.
Laurie Howell: (05:01)
...and Wallace & Gromit was big then, still is, I guess. And I remember making characters out of that. And I remember sending one that I was really, really, really proud of, to Nick Parks, called Rudy, this rabbit which had headphones, and sending it to them. And I remember getting a very polite letter back, saying, thank you (laughs), but no, thanks. Yeah, those two things are, I guess, are like formative memories.
Charles: (05:27)
And how did you express yourself growing up? What was your medium of choice?
Laurie Howell: (05:31)
Well, I mean, the food thing continued. It's always been a big part of my life. Design, art, making things, playing with things. I mean, me and my brother, you know, we always used to kind of graffiti the garden shed with, like, really bad stencils, trying to emulate all the kind of skate culture, and things that we were liking as we grew up. just, just constantly making really, that was the thing.
Charles: (05:59)
Where did you guys meet? How did you guys get together?
Toby Treyer-Evans: (06:02)
We actually met at university when we were 18. So we've been working on and off for quite a few years now. We both studied industrial design, and there were lots of group exercises on that course, and we ended up working together quite early on in that course. And then we kind of just felt like, I guess, it was relatively organic, but we felt like we worked quite well together. And in our final year at university, we decided to start a little clothing label. I mean, it's quite a big name for what it actually was, but we sold bobble hats, essentially. We made and designed and sold bobble hats using what we knew about design and manufacture. And that was when we did our first thing that wasn't university together, and we felt like it worked really well. And from there, we continued our working relationship through product design, and later on, advertising.
Charles: (07:05)
Laurie, what was the entrepreneurial journey like? Did you enjoy that? Was that something you always wanted to do?
Laurie Howell: (07:10)
Yeah, I mean, it's great. I mean, when you do industrial design, you're always trying to imagine what your… the thing you are coming up with could, how it can live in the real world. I think like we loved that process, we ended up with us driving out like weekly to this little factory in Leicestershire, and there was this kind of… They'd seen a better day, and it was his father and son team with, I think it was about seven grandmas in the back. And they were really fun to work with. We basically tell them what we wanted to do, and they had these big, I think they were like digital looms, and we just, like, work with them to see how we can make things and, try to get the thing, which was in our head into reality. And that was, that was really great.
And then working out how to sell it, I think, and, you know, building a bit of a story around it. And, you know, we did all sorts of things like, you know, market stalls in Portobello Road, and trying to get grants, and just sharing that, and it was really fun. And that whole bringing something in your head into a physical thing that people can like touch and hold is a really great feeling.
Charles: (08:19)
What is it about each other that sits at the heart of this partnership? Because, obviously, it's multifaceted, it's gone on for a while. You've done a lot of different stuff together, you've made a lot of different life choices together. What is it about each other that makes this work for each of you?
Laurie Howell: (08:34)
it definitely starts simply, you know. You get on, you know. We started working together as friends, when we were 19 or so, through university, and then out of that. And I think that's an important thing. I think you have to get on, I think you have to share a lot of the same, I guess, in some ways, love the same work, share the same idols in some regard, like the people you, like, like the work of, talk about, all of those things. And then I guess just trying to share, trying to make things together. And also, to be honest, when you do it and it works, you want to do it again, and I think that's what leads to the longevity, is being able to keep doing it and it not feel either like stretched, or boring, or difficult. I think that’s it really. Not much thought really goes into it. I'm sure with any partnership, it's just keeping it going as long as it feels good.
Charles: (09:35)
Toby, what about you? What works about it for you? Why does it work for you?
Toby Treyer-Evans: (09:40)
I think more than anything, it's fun. It's really fun working with a mate. You share the highs, you share the lows, and there's so many times where… I mean, you obviously need each other when there are the lows. But when things go well, it's amazing being able to share that experience with someone else. I think that's a massive part of it. I also think we both make each other's work better, and there's an acknowledgement of that through everything we do. And I guess, hopefully, we are greater than the sum of our parts in that sense. We push each other, there's a kind of inbuilt expectation that what each other does is going to be as good as it can be. We're not actively pushing each other, but there is a kind of standard that we have, and that, as a result, hopefully makes the work better, and as Laurie said, it's kind of really rewarding when it is good.
Charles: (10:41)
Have you guys ever become close to breaking up?
Toby Treyer-Evans: (10:44)
(laughs) It's never something we've spoken about. Maybe Laurie's been thinking it, and hasn't said it out loud. But no, I think, I mean, we've been lucky in the sense that there's always been something that's kept it going (laughs). And if we ever get bored, we'll always move on to the next thing. And so maybe you could call that distraction, but is working for us at the moment.
Charles: (11:09)
I'm fascinated by partnerships that work in the ways that yours does, for as long as yours has, and with as much success as yours has, because it's rare. I think it's rare in any aspect of life, not just the creative industries. I mean, it's essentially a marriage, right? You guys have essentially got a marriage of sorts, it's mutual trust, mutual respect, mutual love, mutual support. And so it's just rare, I think, in this day. How did it work during COVID, for instance? Like, were you able to get together? Were you in the same part of the world?
Toby Treyer-Evans: (11:39)
No, we were actually miles away from each other. I got stuck in England, I actually left a week before everything went into lockdown, and I went to, actually went to Scotland to live in a hut, completely off grid, no internet. And when I came out… I put myself in lockdown, and when I came out, everyone else was in lockdown. So I, I was just (laughs) stuck in England. And so Laurie and I were working 10, 11 months apart, which I actually think was probably quite a good thing. You do do so much together, sometimes it's good to have that space.
I mean, it is a really interesting thing, we don't spend much time examining it really, because it works. But what's also quite rare and quite hard is that the pace of your life outside of work is often different to the pace of your life within work. So even though Laurie and I are doing the same things and going at the same pace and doing the same career in work, often things change and things go at different paces outside. And I think that's when it starts to, not get difficult, but you have to talk about it more, and probably be more open with each other about where you want to go and what you want to do. And that's definitely something that we've found we've had to do more since COVID.
Charles: (12:59)
And do you guys do that instinctively? I mean, Laurie, was that something that just came naturally, in terms of raising issues that you hadn't talked about before? Were you guys pretty good about that?
Laurie Howell: (13:08)
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we've always talked about everything, and, you know, got into debates and arguments. I think the COVID thing is a really interesting one, because it brings up new conversations. They become really about the big stuff, outside of work, and it's all very connected, I think. But yeah, it is a natural thing. We will always, kind of, like, start a conversation somewhere, and you can tell that it's about talking about that properly. I think with everyone, during these last two years, it's been really interesting to see how your outlooks change.
And I think it's been really great too to see that, you know, with that space and distance, we are able to run things well, and I think having worked together for so long, has probably helped that, because you have a shorthand or your own language. And I think that gives you a lot more understanding when you have a difficulty of communication or hours or time differences or situations. So, yeah. It's probably really helpful to have had that time before things like a pandemic arrive.
Charles: (14:19)
Having a partnership dynamic when you are responsible for the work, whatever the work is, whether it's industrial design or advertising, and the fact that you guys get on so well, that you obviously have such trust and mutual respects in each other, that's a really powerful foundation. How has the partnership informed your leadership, as your careers have evolved and you've taken on more responsibility? How does being a partner influence how you guys lead, both individually and together?
Laurie Howell: (14:45)
Yeah, I think that's actually a really interesting question, because it's also how the partnership is defined. And I think in advertising, particularly, there's obviously a team dynamic, which is, as a creative team, you're in a head space for a really long time, of, like, pushing upwards, and focusing on your ideas and your work, and you have to shift that to kind of leading a team. And it’s kind of going from that really healthy energy that creative teams have, which is, “Us against the world, let's see what we can do here,” to helping and pushing, I guess, younger creatives or other creatives to get there themselves. And I think there's that dynamic shift, but then, you know, you put that into a partnership, and I think it's an interesting question, because leading as two is a different thing to leading as one. I guess like anything, it's about finding your own way, if you can.
We are lucky that we do still. And it's a really great thing, just, like, think the same things often at the same time. And I think it's just really good, because it means that you're not having to establish how you lead and then lead, you can just do it instinctively. But then, I guess it's also just remembering what you're leading. And I think, if you have that focus on the work and the ideas, then you kind of have a bit of a blueprint for the thing you should be sending your energy into. And then it's kind of establishing what your job is, is to help that work be great, you know, and to lead that work to where it needs to get to. And that's something we've kind of been learning, over the last few years, together.
Charles: (16:22)
Toby, what's the toughest part about leading when you're part of a partnership?
Toby Treyer-Evans: (16:29)
I guess when you have a vision for something, and Laurie doesn't have the same vision, and we have to kind of figure it out and debate the way forward with a load of other people in the room (laughs), which we try to avoid. I mean, it doesn't happen that often, but it does happen. And it often means we have to just kind of take an hour for ourselves and figure it out, and then come back with a singular piece of feedback. I mean, people tell us that we kind of start talking in shorthand. We have this strange language apparently, where we mumble to each other in meetings, and we know exactly what each other is saying, but no one else can understand a word. So sometimes we often do that, which also helps.
But, as Laurie said, we are really lucky, we do think often the same things, and we often share the same vision for where we want the work to go. So there aren't that many instances where there are problems per se.
I actually think it can sometimes be an advantage, because we can kind of hold each other to account, we can check each other, and help each other grow as leaders. And we can be very honest about that, as well, because we are friends first and foremost, and that's something that we, I think, are quite lucky to have.
Laurie Howell: (17:51)
I think it's also like any partnership, creative one, is recognizing that you need space to own things, regardless if you're doing things together, you still need to find, like, openings for your kind of own personal time or, I guess, expression. And I think we've got pretty good at working out where each of us is stronger or where it'll be really fun for that person to take that on in different parts of the process. And I think that plays into leading, too, you know. Projects are long things, and there's different moments where different things are needed. So sometimes one of us will step back and the other will take that space up, and just, like, have fun with that. And I think that's really important too. It's just like any creative person, you need a bit of your own ownership over anything, and I think it's really important to recognize that.
Charles: (18:46)
When you've got this level of connection and level of intimacy, as you said, Toby, basically your own language, do you worry that that creates the situation for some people where they might feel isolated, or they might feel like it's hard for them to create a kind of connection with you, that they would otherwise be able to if it was just dealing with one of you? I mean, does it create a sort of a almost invisible wall at times? Do you worry about that?
Toby Treyer-Evans: (19:09)
I mean, it's something we are definitely cognizant of. I think that's when it's great to be able to have to share a vision, essentially, because both of us will essentially be saying the same thing, and hopefully be pushing different parts of the project, but all going in the same direction. So I really hope that people don't see it as a barrier. I don't think they do, necessarily. I kind of just hope they see it as twice the power. When I say power, I mean engine power, not power power. So I think, yeah, I mean, hopefully not, and I think we are cognizant of that, and try not to let that get in the way.
Charles: (19:56)
And do you find that you gravitate towards different people? I mean, do you find that, is every relationship you have with everybody that works for you between the two of you and them, or do you find sometimes that you have individual relationships with certain people, depending on personality, type, or whatever?
Laurie Howell: (20:11)
I mean, we definitely don't walk around, you know, as a two.
Toby Treyer-Evans: (20:17)
We always try and walk separately.
Laurie Howell: (20:19)
Yeah, we definitely do gravitate towards different people. We obviously like a lot of the same people, too. I mean, it's good to break down those barriers and have personal relationships with everyone that you work with. So we try to do that.
Charles: (20:32)
Yeah, I mean the reason I'm so intrigued by this is because, you know, I don’t have to tell you, that leadership is changing so dramatically as a result of the last two plus years. And the definition of leadership, I think, is changing. People trying to figure out how they lead is changing minute by minute. People trying to figure out what they need from their leaders is changing minute by minute. And so understanding, I think, the dynamic of leadership through multiple lenses is incredibly helpful right now. And I would imagine that having a really close partner, trusted partner, where you can work through the kinds of stuff that most people are working out by themselves in real time, and mostly they just are really struggling with all the inputs, all the changes, all the variations, their own sense of what used to work, their understanding now of what doesn't work anymore and what should work.
So I think for people listening, trying to help them understand, when is it great to be able to compare notes and share stuff? And when does the moment come where you actually have to just stand up and be counted by yourself, or stand up and make leadership decisions by yourself?
Laurie Howell: (21:29)
Yeah, I mean, that's something that we're really conscious of as well. And I think it's also part of growing, you know, certainly for both of us. Kind of, like, have fun with more work and work with more people, I think. You have to be able to lead on your own. You know, as I said, like, always together, always able to confer. And I think you have to have confidence in each other's decision making, and know that if, you know, you go away for two weeks and you come back or, you know, things are almost, like, still moving in the same direction. I think agreeing on where you're trying to get to is part of it. And then I think everything is really natural.
I think you do have to be able to stand on your own two feet as a leader. I think, it's also… it feels like one of the big parts of what people want from you is clarity, and a decision either way. And we've found that, you know, as we've developed, you become way, way more conscious of how your decision making, or the things you decide or the clarity you bring, can affect the rhythms of everything. Like the way someone works, the way someone feels, the way they sleep, what their week looks like. And I think like taking that responsibility for that is really important.
And I think we're always trying to make sure that the decisions that we make, if we do make them, or that we all make together, are really kind of clear. And it kind of comes back to what Toby said, and I think I mentioned, is that the only way you can do that is kind of having a very concise ambition or clear ambition of where you want to get to. And it helps, as well, because it informs all the decisions that you make.
Toby Treyer-Evans: (23:10)
It's definitely something we try and do with every project and every piece of work. We always set out with the kind of… try and figure out the greater ambition for the work as a whole, something we can all get behind. So, for example, in the New York Times project, we did a piece called Life Needs Truth, and we kind of started with the question of, like, how can we get people to hear the rhythm and cadence of a poem without it being read out loud? So that became the greater ambition and vision for that project. And once we had that, it was something we could all align on, our team internally, but also for the client and most importantly, for the creative team. And once you've got that, all the other decisions are swimming in that direction.
So if it means Laurie has to make the call on something, that's cool, if I make a call on something, that's also cool, or if neither of us make a decision and it's done without us, we know, or at least we hope, that it will all be leading towards that greater ambition. And I think if you can achieve that and it succeeds, and you reach that common goal or ambition, I think you start to create a space where everyone feels like they're succeeding simultaneously, which is, I think, the key to everyone being happy and also creating amazing work.
Charles: (24:28)
Yeah, I think that's well said, and, and easier said than done, right? I mean, one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you guys was because you've been responsible for, both personally as part of your group, you've done some really, not just exceptional work, but some really important work. And actually just picking up on your point, I'm interested to understand, how do you create an environment when there is so much mayhem? I mean, in that situation, the New York Times work obviously was about political mayhem, and more than mayhem, right? Political destruction potentially, and now with the pandemic, we've got another whole set of emotional drivers that are affecting all of us. How do you create an environment for yourselves, and also among the people that work for you, that gives them the security, the competence, the emotional safety for, to use a topic, subject matter that I've been talking about a lot recently, how do you create emotional safety for the people around you in that kind of environment?
Toby Treyer-Evans: (25:17)
I mean there are some things that we definitely do that are things like protecting the creatives and protecting the people. But when I say protecting, I don't mean, like, mollycoddling them, or making sure that they're all right every second of the day. I almost mean, like, protecting the idea that they've got in their head, and ensuring that that thing that they've got in their head can reach the outside world with as little damage and interference as possible. Because I actually think that it's incredible how intertwined the person and the idea are.
And you always feel it, I mean, if you've been working on a project, and you've got an idea and it dies, it's the worst feeling in the world. But if you create an idea and it reaches the outside world and it succeeds, it's the best feeling in the world. So I think if you can protect that idea and kind of back it all the way, in every meeting and every decision along the way, it helps create a space that people feel comfortable in. And more than anything, it allows them to not have any fear when creating and thinking up these ideas, which I think is really important.
Charles: (26:31)
Laurie, what about you? What's your take?
Laurie Howell: (26:34)
Yeah, I agree with that. I think it's in many ways another enemy of… kind of another enemy of doing good things is process. I feel like people always want to find recipes and find formulas, and kind of create lanes and, I guess, tracks to get to the next piece, even if the thing you've done before was all about doing or trying to do something different. I think part of it is, as you say, rightly, there's, like, lots of forces that are trying to take you in different directions and change things. And I think part of it is, there's a good active energy in trying to break down some of those recipes and processes.
No one's trying to do it out of any ill will, but it's just like a natural… it's like the shortest way to get there. And I think a lot of the energy that me and Toby invest is in trying to keep this project, because if we want it to be different, and we want it to end in a different place, it almost needs to get there a different way. And I think we try our very best to try and disrupt those processes, not in an archaic way or just like a kind of pointless way, but just in a kind of way that just keeps this thing that someone's thought of as free, to go where it wants to go as, as it can be. So yeah, we try our best to do that.
Charles: (27:56)
And how do you think the last two years have changed your leadership? What's different now than it was two years ago, in terms of how you lead?
Laurie Howell: (28:04)
That's a great question.
Toby Treyer-Evans: (28:06)
You know, I think, I mean, certainly a greater consideration for people's time and their lives beyond work. I think that's really important, certainly checking in with people far more, meeting up with them when we can, and giving them as much love as we can give remotely, I think is really important, because so much goes unnoticed and unchecked, and you have no idea how long people are sitting behind the screens, or how little time people are sitting behind the screens. And I think it's important to check in for both those reasons. So I think that's definitely something we've tried to do.
Charles: (28:51)
And how are you guys taking care of yourselves? Because I'm conscious every week, when we talk to people about how the last two years have changed them, and there is so much generosity that I hear back from leaders, and so much care and concern, rightfully so, I think that we've never needed more empathy. But I'm also conscious of the fact that it comes with a significant personal cost, right? I mean, you guys were affected by the pandemic as we all were, perhaps you, like I, have been touched relatively lightly by it, compared to the trauma and tragedy of a lot of people's lives. But nevertheless, I think we've all been pretty badly affected by it. I think we've all suffered a different kind of trauma. How do you take care of yourselves and each other in times like this?
Laurie Howell: (29:32)
I think the pace of things, you know. It's hard to know exactly where you were before you are now after this two years, in a way. It's almost like you're… I don't know if you have the same thing, you're trying to remember what your rhythm was, you're trying to remember where you were, and in some ways, we… I'm trying to work out whether we think we're in a far more different place than we actually were, and (laughs) it's got way back more close to normal, or whether it's miles away. But I do think being more open to people having different rhythms and different paces of doing things, I think that's been really great, actually, although there's probably some negatives to it. But I think the last two years has allowed people, a big baggy bit of time back, to kind of shift and morph things to work around the same job.
And I think between us, we've noticed we used to be way more on the same rhythms in literally the kind of day to day rhythms, and, and now we're miles apart in terms of what we're doing. But we are essentially coming back together at the key moments, when we need to be together or when we need to work. And I think that's been a great thing. And you can, like, take that into all of the team, everyone that we work with, you know. All trying to get somewhere, but, like, really now, everyone's just doing it their own way. I think that's a really good thing, actually.
Charles: (30:51)
So do you guys think the partnership is stronger as a result of the last two years?
Laurie Howell: (30:55)
(laughs)
Toby Treyer-Evans: (30:56)
(laughs) Yeah, I would, looking at each other to see who's going to go first. I think definitely, yeah, definitely. Having space has definitely helped. I feel like we're, as a result, hungrier than ever, have more energy, I think we're really optimistic about the future. I mean, I'd say so, for sure.
Laurie Howell: (31:19)
No, I completely agree with that. I think it's also… it allows you to work out where you want to go next, what you want to do next, how to get there, and come to the same conclusions together. So yeah, that is a great thing.
Charles: (31:34)
Last two questions for both of you. Laurie, let's start with you. How do you lead?
Laurie Howell: (31:40)
I think that's something which is changing, actually. It kind of almost asks too definitive an answer, in a way. How do you lead is actually… depends on what you're leading, it depends on who you're leading, it depends on where you're trying to get to. I do think you made a good point, that people are asking different things of leaders now. And I think there's so many different ways that you can do that. And I think a lot of our conversation's been about our partnership, but you have to work out how you want to lead yourself too, and do that, in your own way.
I think a sense of clarity is important, and trying to be consistent, so that people know who they're working with (laughs), you know, that doesn't change, all the time, you know, that's what we're seeing. Continuing to remember the great people that we've worked with, and take the bits that you love, and try and mash them together, and work out how that works with you. I think being kind is something which is underrated. You know, I think it's something that we try to do, and I think you can get to amazing work by giving people the space to do their own thing. And I think that's a really good thing, as long as there's a clear place to get to. So, yeah, and it's a really hard question, to be honest. I'm sure if you talk to us in two more years, we'll have a different answer.
Charles: (33:08)
Well, and before I get Toby to answer the question, I just want to commend you. Because in 250 something episodes, you're the first person that's pushed back on the question, and said it deserves context. Toby, what about you? That being said, how do you lead?
Toby Treyer-Evans: (33:22)
I guess it's kind of maybe two-parter for me. I think firstly, like protection, and that's a kind of broader term for genuinely trying to care about the people and the creatives, as well as protecting the idea. I think it's actually a really hard thing to genuinely care about people. It takes a lot of confidence in your own ability and who you are. It means you have to be totally open to other people's ideals, which is quite a hard thing, to put your own ideals and ideas and ways of doing things aside. And I think it's also, with that, it's kind of, in part, trying to create a space where, not so much hierarchy, but everyone can achieve what they're achieving at the same time, and all feel like they're achieving the same things at the same time.
So I think part of that is the protection and the love and the looking after it, and the second part of that is the direction and really trying to set a genuinely exciting ambition for the project. And I think that they go hand in hand, because if you feel like you're achieving that goal, you will feel you're happier, and in order to make amazing work, you also have to be happy. So it's a cyclical thing. And I feel like if you can do both of those, and hopefully people will be inspired, and also feel like they're loved and feel happy, and then everyone wins.
Charles: (35:10)
The last question, what are you afraid of?
Laurie Howell: (35:15)
Wow. Yeah, what a question. Everything and nothing? I don't know. I think it's… I think there's obviously loads of existential things that we can worry about and be afraid of. I think, in a weird way, you have to just let yourself go a bit, and I think go with that. And I think that's probably one of our strengths, is that a lot of the time, really know what we want to get to, where we want to get to, I mean, with the work that we're doing. So you don't really have time to be afraid of anything, and it doesn't really matter, too, because it's not really about that at that point. I think if you stop, you can be afraid of a million things.
Charles: (36:12)
And Toby, what about you?
Toby Treyer-Evans: (36:16)
I think I'm equally afraid, but also equally excited about the future, as in, not the next couple of years, but 20 years in this industry. I really hope we'll look back at this time in this industry and see this as the way in which brands interact with a consumer as a very one-dimensional, single plain way of interacting. I hope that it will seem and feel really archaic, because at the same time, I hope the future is going to be a completely different way of coming up with ideas. I really hope that the future is going to be a place where ideas can still live in weird and wonderful ways, but has moved on from the current industry norms, like the TVs and the posters and the ads.
And I feel like the future could actually be incredibly exciting if we rethink about how brands behave and how they show up in people's lives, and the way in which the platforms are also developing alongside that, the metaverses, and even like robotics. In that world, you think, actually, suddenly advertising comes incredibly relevant again, but in a completely different way. And so I guess I'm afraid of it not moving along far enough, but I'm really excited by the idea that it can.
Laurie Howell: (37:52)
Yeah, I think also, just to add to that, I think there's a fear sometimes that there's no new ground. And, I think you see it in everything, you know. I saw something the other day that said Hollywood had run out of ideas, and I find that really interesting. How can you run out of stories? And I kind of half believed it, you know, I feel that's a really interesting thing that we're seeing.
Like, I don't know if the world's got smaller or bigger, or the fact that we're seeing everything, or we're just seeing so much all the time, that, you know, we are all searching for that new thing or that new ground, that new kind of idea. And I wonder if it is finite, you know? (laughs) And so I think that's a really good thing to try and continue to wrestle, try and find that original space, try and find that new bit.
Charles: (38:36)
I think it's such an interesting point. As a species, I think we often worry that we've run out of original thinking, and we consistently surprise ourselves that we're able to imagine new and wondrous possibilities, even at the worst of times. I want to thank you both for coming on. I think, as I suggested, the future of leadership is evolving so rapidly, and leadership has always been a lonely place to be. I think in many ways, it's becoming harder and harder, because there aren't any rules anymore, which you guys experience every day. And I think part of the challenge for the evolution of leadership is going to be, how do you support yourself as a leader, and then how do people support each other?
And I think the example you guys have given us today, of your partnership, how it works, the insights you've been willing to share, on an interpersonal level, as much as anything else, explains a lot about why you have been, and why you are so successful in the industry that you are currently choosing to play in. And I'm really interested to see where you guys take this partnership. It's clearly a profound one, and it's clearly capable of driving enormous change, I think, in almost any area. So I'm really interested to see where you guys take it. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing today.
Laurie Howell: (39:45)
Thanks, Charles.
Toby Treyer-Evans: (39:46)
It’s been very fun.
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