Evin Shutt of 72andSunny
How do you greet change?
"FEARLESS CREATIVE LEADERSHIP" PODCAST - TRANSCRIPT
Episode 199: Evin Shutt
Here’s a question. How do you greet change?
I’m Charles Day. I work with creative and innovative companies. I coach their leaders to help them succeed where leadership has its greatest impact. The intersection of strategy and humanity.
This week’s guest is Evin Shutt. She’s the Chief Executive Officer of 72andSunny, a role she took on in March of 2020.
“And as someone who has always thought, embrace change, figure out how to high five it and look for it, it has definitely challenged me to new levels in the last few years for that. But it's amazing perspective when other disruptions happen now, of how severe is it, how quickly can we embrace it and evolve from it, and find the opportunity in it?”
Taking on the senior leadership position of one of the world’s most creative and innovative companies, at the very moment the world is shutting down, will instantly reveal your relationship with change. Do you look for it and high five it? Or work to minimize it?
During the months and years ahead, and across the entire spectrum of leadership, that difference in mindset will become more and more obvious.
The leaders we remember will see change as opportunity and currency, and they will seek it out.
They will recognize that they are living in a moment in which more is possible than at any point in human history, and they will quickly create new expectations that two years ago seemed unimaginable.
They will open the door and invite change and all of its relatives, uncertainty, unpredictability, apprehension and yes, fear, to come in and sit down.
They will offer it the best room in the house and the best seat at the table, and they will treat it like their oldest and dearest friend.
For one simple reason. It is. The best friend any leader interested in leading could have.
So, the next time your phone rings, your text chimes, or your email sings, hope against hope that change is calling. And then do everything you can to make it feel welcome.
Here’s Evin Shutt.
Charles: (02:20)
Evin, welcome back to Fearless. Thanks so much for coming back on the show.
Evin Shutt: (02:23)
Thanks for having me. It's great to see you.
Charles: (02:26)
What have the last two years been like for you? How are you different as a result of the last two years?
Evin Shutt: (02:32)
Oh, good question. Well, I'm tired. I think everyone's tired. It's been… you know, I think the level of change and evolution that you can take on at a certain time, I think that threshold has been raised of, like, when there's a disruption, what used to feel like a world-changing moment, maybe doesn't feel so much anymore, because we've literally had quite a few world changing moments in the last few years and you know what those feel like now. And as someone who has always thought, embrace change, figure out how to high five it and look for it, it has definitely challenged me to new levels in the last few years for that. But it's amazing perspective when other disruptions happen now, of how severe is it, how quickly can we embrace it and evolve from it, and find the opportunity in it? But, all that said, that takes a lot of energy to do that on a continual basis. And I know all humans around the world have faced that for the last two years.
Charles: (03:29)
And where do you get your energy from these days, given the fact you have less contact with human beings, which I know was a big source for you?
Evin Shutt: (03:36)
Yeah. It's the human contact still. You know, I think part of the reason I love this industry and this career is the industry is the people, and the people I get to interact with every day, and the inspiration and creativity, and their constant resilience are… you might be having a down day and you get on the phone with someone else who's very inspired by something and they're sharing it. And that inspires me. And then even on the days you get on the phone with someone else and they're having a hard day. There's a human connection there that, even through a screen, I think is really unmatched in our industry compared to others, of just that shared collective, like, why we're in it, what we believe, what we want to create. So, that's huge for me. It's the people.
Charles: (04:19)
How has your leadership changed?
Evin Shutt: (04:22)
Quite a bit. I think, like most people, when you say, how are you? It has a new depth of meaning. I think part of it is, during this time, being invited into people's homes and seeing their parents in the background, or their kids, or their dog, or even their bed at times. You just have a new level of the whole person. And I feel like the catch ups that you have that maybe don't have an agenda, but are just important to check in on a person, have a new level of importance for me. And I think I'm less worried about the, like, “We just have to get this done,” and taking the time to understand the humans. And so that together, I understand what they're going through and can best support them. That's been a huge part of the last two years for me.
Charles: (05:04)
And is that designed into your week and in your calendar now? Because obviously, so much of what you are faced with when you're running a business as complicated as 72 is, stuff coming at you and your calendar getting filled. So, are you consciously designing your week to make time for those kinds of exchanges?
Evin Shutt: (05:19)
Yes. Yes. And, you know, I've got an incredible partner in Jamie who helps me with that, but she knows how important it is of, like, you know, you can't always call people just when you need something. You need to make sure you're fulfilling what they need and you understand what's going on in their life. And so, I probably have five to 10 of those a week, of just checking in on people, and making sure that their cups are full. They have what they need. And then yes, I have lots of asks of people, that's part of the job all the time. But, you know, that wouldn't be fulfilling to me if I also wasn't doing the reverse. So it is a lot of blocking out time for that. But I find that you have to do that, whether it's clients or our people internally. That's a real difference maker, and it's why I do this. Again, it's about the people, wherever you sit.
Charles: (06:05)
You mentioning Jamie, actually makes me think of something. I never talk to people about the relationship they have with executive assistant or the chief of staff and people have different titles for it. And actually, I think, just spending a couple of minutes talking about your relationship with Jamie would be really interesting, because I think it's one of the most, either underappreciated or in some cases misunderstood relationships. What do you look for in the person that has that role, as a starting point?
Evin Shutt: (06:30)
I mean, they are my partner. I say it all the time. I could not do this job without her. So trust is number one. There's nothing she doesn't know that's going on. So someone who is, like, 100% trustworthy is super critical to me. Because I realize if she doesn't know why I'm agitated coming out of a meeting and that not at her, or that this is a really important meeting coming up and all the context behind it, and how to help me prep for it, our days aren't going to go well. Or saying that my son has a baseball game that I really want to make it to, and understand the dynamic of my life. So trust is super critical. Life experience is important to me, as a mother, it helps me to have a partner who also understands that responsibility and the complications and the, “Oh shit, I forgot to schedule the physical for school,” type stuff.
And the guilt sometimes that comes with being, you know, a working mom that all of us, I think, try to fight, or a working parent or… and it's different for everyone, right? Whatever that thing is in your life. But having life experience helps because someone else is understanding what I'm going through. And then a desire to learn is critical. Jamie is always hungry for more information and proactively doing research for me and sharing things with me that I think we can feed each other to make us better at what we do. So, those are unbelievably important. And I'll say, I think it's a learning experience, as you become leader, of how to find that trust for someone and how to get it right. And I feel like once you do, it is such a game changer. I'd heard that repeatedly from leaders of like, "When you get it right," and I was like, “Well, how do you get it right?”
And I do think it came down to, like, some of it trusting my gut. If I'm honest, in the past, I think I made some hires where others were like, "This is the person." And I was like, “Okay, okay. Maybe I just don't know.” And, I know with Jamie, I was like, “Yes, she's the person who I feel 100% loyalty to,” and I know, she feels the same, which is great.
Charles: (08:37)
Part of the role is for them to protect you. How do you know that they're not overly protecting you? How do you know that they're not actually isolating you from stuff that you should actually be exposed to?
Evin Shutt: (08:47)
We have that conversation, and part of it’s true. I'm like, you… and she knows it. She represents me in all interactions with people, and she watches what's important to me and how I treat people. And she's, you know, smart and does that herself anyway. And then I think she more has the reaction of, check in with me. We probably talk 500 times a day, even remotely of, like, "Hey, this meeting request went in, is this one you want?" Or, "I was going to move this." And I'm like, "Hold on. Here's why this is important." And it's just constant communication. And that's the person that you always have to make time for, because you can't do it alone. You need that strong partner. And if you're not in constant contact, it doesn't work.
Charles: (09:32)
And do you ever ask people around you how she's showing up? Do you vet it out, as well?
Evin Shutt: (09:38)
I do. Yeah. And we do growth plans and performance plans for her. And I don't gather the feedback purposely, because I want to make sure people feel that they can be very honest. I think, at times, when you have a title like CEO, you don't always get the truth. And so having truth tellers around you, which is another important part of this, is critical. Jamie's one of those people for me. But having others to gather that information, and I repeatedly hear back that she's inclusive and problem solving and things like that, which is good.
Charles: (10:09)
You wrote an article what, a couple weeks ago, I think three weeks ago in Campaign US, and you talked about the 72andSunny Employee Recovery Program. Can you just talk a little bit about what that is intended to do, how it came about, and how you're hoping it's going to work?
Evin Shutt: (10:24)
Yeah. I mean, for the 20 years I've been in this industry, I think it's no secret to anyone, it asks a lot from people and the hours can be very long. Creativity is hard to put a timeframe on, and the disruptions in culture are endless. And it's also the thing, I think, that keeps people coming back, of that adrenaline hit that people love to be a part of in this industry, but it wears you down. And so I feel like I've spent 20 years trying to be, like, “Could we work this way? Would that be more sustainable for people?” Or, “What if we try that?” or, “Can we do three days a week for this role?” And have had a lot of failures, if I'm honest, in doing it. And then coming through the last two years and seeing the amplified intensity on people, one of the observations, as a former college athlete, recovery is super important in training and sports.
You have to have down days for your body, and it's, you know, scientifically proven you will perform better with that recovery time. And I thought about it, and I looked at our data of how many people had taken PTO in the last two years. It was jarring, and I just started to think we have to do this differently. And at the same time, we were surveying our people repeatedly on what they wanted, and it kept coming back to freedom, flexibility and recovery were the themes. And I was like, okay, well, that's pretty clear. We have to think differently about this. And if we don't take a really big swing, we're not going to make any progress. And I think even in some of the things, and we can talk about them, I don't expect us to hit 100 on that.
In fact, I think it's going to be really hard. We're already learning a lot, three and a half months into the year with some of these programs. But if we can nudge closer into more time, and even people get five more days of recovery than they had before, on our leave policies, or our PTO policies, or our holiday policies, then we're a better company for people. And people are coming back more with cups filled and ready to contribute. And especially in a creative industry, you need time to go get inspired. If you're just constantly having to give, we're not going to perform for clients, let alone what we're doing to the humans involved.
Charles: (12:30)
I still see so many business who are trying to get back to some version of February 2020. Do you see that too?
Evin Shutt: (12:37)
Yes. Yeah.
Charles: (12:38)
And this works hard against that idea, right? I mean, this is very much… at least, the way I read it, was that this is designed to create an entirely new set of expectations.
Evin Shutt: (12:47)
It is. It is. None of us know what's going to happen, right? So, let's just start there. We're not sure, but we're starting with the people who make up our company and what they want. Instead of trying to write the rules for corporate America from 2019, we're starting with who is in our company today, which by the way, the workforce has changed quite a bit. And we have younger people that have come into the workforce with different expectations, which was going to happen anyway, pandemic or no pandemic. And then we have people who've been in it whose lives have changed and are asking for different things. And we want those people, we need those people, as part of this industry and as part of the workforce in America. So, we've got to figure out ways to, not just accommodate, but also make sure they can thrive. And I think the company will be better because of it, too.
Charles: (13:36)
So, what have you already found out in the last three and a half months about what works and what might not work?
Evin Shutt: (13:42)
Good question. We, like many tech companies and ad agencies, have had unlimited PTO for many years, and we found out that not many people were taking it. So, we added this mandated or required, you know, obviously legally, I can't remember the term we had to use, three weeks. People need to take PTO regardless if they're going somewhere or not, which was a common theme, obviously, during the pandemic, right? “I don't have anywhere to go anyway.” But just step away from your screen. And so when we added that, we said there also has to be a way to make sure people take PTO. I think all good, incredible managers are the people who are constantly asking, “What's your plan?” It's really hard to do remote. It's really hard to do in our industry in general, when resources are lean. So, let's just hire someone. She just started. So, I don't have anything to report on that yet. We'll see.
Charles: (14:29)
(laughs)
Evin Shutt: (14:30)
We know there's a need for her, just looking at the first three months. And then I think that the other challenge is the holiday calendar. So, we went from four weeks of holidays to seven weeks this year. And we did that taking three week bank holidays and adding the Friday before it, and things like that. I will say in, I think it's January, was tough. We had Super Bowl and Martin Luther King Day back to back. So, we had almost two day work weeks in there. That's really hard to manage. So, there's just some learnings of, where can you do that? Where can you not? And then, you know, the realities of even sharing with clients that this is how we're going to keep great talent in our company. You come to us because we have great people. This is part of it. Get on board.
There's also deadlines that are real, that will creep up in there. And so I think we have to do a better job of communicating, this is our ambition. If we can get everyone who only took five days last year to move to three weeks of their own time, and who maybe missed all the winter holidays because they were working on a launch campaign that was in the spring, to finally move to five weeks of time off through holidays instead of just four or instead of two, or whatever it was, that is progress. But it doesn't mean we have to hit it 100%. I mean, for 20 years, we've celebrated 72andSunny Day on the same day, every year globally, and never been able to fully shut down. So, I know that we can't achieve perfection on this on the days we're closed, but I think in the rolling of this out, maybe there was… we weren't that clear always to our employees of, it's not going to be perfect, but it's going to be progress.
Charles: (16:06)
The intention behind it is palpable. And I think, if not unique, it's certainly really rare at the moment, in my experience of looking across multiple companies and multiple industries. One of the things that I've always admired about your company is that you're so willing to share what you experience. I mean, there's nothing... It never feels proprietary. You generally want to make this better for everybody. So, I'm really fascinated to see what you guys learn from this. What do you think the office looks like? I know that you said to me before we started recording, that you've been hiring people who don't live in the city in which they attach to an office. How is that working, and what do you think an office is going to look like for you guys moving forward?
Evin Shutt: (16:42)
Yeah, you know, our office now is more like a Starbucks, It's a meeting place. It's a gathering place. There's no assigned desks. You book your desk the day before. Priority for conference rooms goes to client meetings and group meetings when you need to come together. And for culture building moments, where we want to get the full office together. That's the plan right now in how we bring people together. And we just opened, and I say open, because there's no return or go back to 2019. This is a reopening of how we see our office and how it's set up. We reopened in North America last week. So, it's very fresh. It's very new of, you know, how do you handle the all company meeting that has been totally virtual, to now is virtual plus in real life, and make sure everyone feels a part of the culture?
But what are the moments, if you live in Mississippi and work for 72andSunny LA, that you come to the office, and how do we manage that? And you know, each person has a budget of how we think about that and make sure they feel a part of it, even as more people might come in more often, is our plan right now, but we're learning. And I think we're learning what… to give people a reason to come into the office. I think we had the moments last week with great attendance and then, I was in yesterday and there were very few people in. And that's okay.
There weren't big meetings on Mondays, but, you know, if the strategy department is having a weekly meeting, that's a reason to come in and work from the office that day and connect with your team. I think pitches will be a big part of it. That's been one of the hardest things during this time, is kind of the last push in looking at the work on the wall. And so I think it'll evolve over time and we're just open to learning. It's an experiment, and we're very open with our people of, this is an experiment.
Charles: (18:29)
Well, I think the important shift in that conversation is that you're focusing on why people should come in the office as opposed to when. And it feels to me that when people are focused on number of days, that that kind of gets away from the point entirely. I don't think people are interested in that conversation anymore.
Evin Shutt: (18:43)
No, I know a lot of companies are, like, Tuesdays and Thursdays are the day to be in the office. And I just know this industry well enough that if you roll that out, on Friday you're going to need a bunch of people at the office for a client meeting. (laughs) That is inevitable of how it will happen. And so, may we get that, where it's like, okay, leadership is there every Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, or something like that. So people know if they want in person meetings, that's a day to be there or certain things like that, maybe. But I think the requirements of, this day and this day are in office, the world is too constantly evolving and our jobs and culture to do that.
And if you think back pre-pandemic, there was always someone on the phone, and there was always someone traveling and having to dial in or not there. How many days were you physically in your main office, if you were working with key clients who are not based in your city? There was a lot of travel. So, I think this is a similar thing of someone's always going to be on a screen or on the phone, and so we just think of it that way.
Charles: (19:48)
One of the great challenges of creative service businesses is the transition away from the original founders. Where are you guys in that evolution?
Evin Shutt: (19:57)
So, Matt, John and Glen are all chairman of the company now, and very much, at the service of us, of what we need, and whenever needed. But we've appointed, in the last two years, two new chief creative officers, globally Matt Murphy and Carlo Cavallone, based in LA and New York, both have been with the company for eight plus years. So, really have a sense of 1, a pedigree of creating some of our most famous work, and 2, who 72andSunny is and where we go next. We've brought in a new Chief Growth Officer, Damaune Journey, a new COO, Patricia Rothberg. So, we've really evolved the company in a lot of ways, in what our leadership looks like and who we are and where we're going, but still really heavily rooted in the belief and the power of creativity.
So, I think being values based and those values being a part of a broader group helped a lot in this evolution, because it wasn't just Matt, John, and Glen. I think not having their names on the door helps, which was always their vision. This company is everyone who comes into it today, which is everyone beyond that group I just named. It's Kelly Schoeffel, who leads strategy in LA. It's, Brett Edgar, our president in New York. It's everyone's company from day one. And that belief has helped in that transition a lot. But, you know, Matt, John and Glen are huge advocates and supporters, and I'm definitely in many meetings a week with them. And I think people are often surprised to hear how closely involved in the business they still are and want to be, and in supporting what 72andSunny of the future is becoming.
Charles: (21:36)
That simple notion of not putting your names on the door is remarkably obvious when you look at it through one lens, but very hard for people to do, isn't it, when they set up their own business? So, they clearly had a really strong understanding about what they were trying to build when they just made that decision.
Evin Shutt: (21:52)
And, you know, it's interesting, it just allowed us to make it not about them from day one and to make people feel ownership of the company. And I think this spirit of entrepreneurialism and a startup, even 20 years in, is alive because of that,
Charles: (22:09)
It seems, like… this is shifting gears. It seems like these days we've got a lot of expectation on business leaders to have really clear points of view about social, cultural, political issues. I think 10 years ago, that was much less the case. You were a subject matter expert. You knew about your industry, you knew about your company. And if you were asked a question about those two things, you're expected to have an answer. These days, clearly we have different expectations. So, like the CEO of Disney, for instance, struggling with the Don't Say Gay legislation in Florida, which got him and the company into a lot of trouble.
After the Will Smith assault of Chris Rock, I think it was Glen who posted about violence in the media, and immediately got all kinds of pushback, and then wrote a piece following up on that. Without getting into that particular issue, how do you think leaders can navigate the complexity of this? Because there's no way you can be a subject matter expert in all of these things. What do you think we should expect of leaders in terms of having points of view about societal, cultural, and political issues?
Evin Shutt: (23:06)
I think, well, one, I think, culture and society have spoken that silence is consent, right? That when you use the Disney example or you go back multiple years to George Floyd and the many murders since that, or you talk about Ukraine. And so I think that's become very clear. And I think it is pressure on companies, first and foremost. And I say that because I think even the lessons from the last two weeks, are when leaders speak, that you're seen as the voice of the company today. There is no definition and line there. That's become very clear too. And I think that's partly of this pandemic, of the blurring of the lines of home life and humans and work. It's really become more integrated. So, for me, the expectation of leaders, I think, is to have a really clear point of view for the company and what your company's line and process will be.
And so for me, I always start with, what's the relevance of this to our company, and to the people who make up our company? And what do we believe? And is this a statement that we need to make out loud? Is it just something we need to make internally? Is it something I need to have one-on-one conversations with small groups, with an ERG group and hear their point of view, so that can inform what the company should do? I always start with listening. And, you know, probably 95% of my time, my focus is on the humans inside our company and making sure they're okay in what they need and taking their guidance.
If it's not an issue that is as close as home to me based on my ethnicity, or race, or gender, I think it's important to listen to them first. But I think oftentimes the leaders are either speaking out on their own personal beliefs, or are afraid to act because it is not in their realm. And you have to stop up and listen first to what the people inside your company are feeling. Which, by the way, they're not all going to agree either, inside different groups. And so I constantly say I'm going to make the best call I can on what I hear, but I know not everyone's going to agree with it, but I think that's part of the influencer and decider set up, right? If I'm a decider, I agree to show up and listen. And if you're a listener, you're going to show up and give your point of view and we're all going to get on board with what we decide. But it is a constant learning curve.
Charles: (25:28)
So, from a practical standpoint, in situations like that, do you have to gather together and say collectively, “Do we need to say something? And if so, what?” I mean, do you think that's the only way that companies can navigate this? Because obviously cancel culture is everywhere. No matter what you say, somebody's going to try and cancel you at the moment. So, do you think this has to be a considered, thoughtful, collective response, whether it comes from one voice or multiple voices?
Evin Shutt: (25:55)
That's the way I do it. I think, first of all, we don't have enough representation in leadership in any industry. And most of the things that come up for a white leader to speak out on it, without first checking in with the communities most affected, I think is a… for me, I always want to start with, how are you? And then what could we do to support you? Is it important for the company to put out a statement on this? And so, you know, we've created, in the last three years, really a committee of people who is, you know, we're watching the news and if we see something, we ping it to each other.
And then we're like, okay, let's get that group together and first of all, check in on them and then understand more of the dynamics of what's happened that we might not understand. And then we can decide, is that an email to the company? Is it an all company meeting? Is it a statement on our LinkedIn? Is it something that I should put out? Regardless of how I'm feeling, I start with the humans, because that's who's affected in all of this, always.
Charles: (26:51)
Yeah, that's for sure. 72's always had a reputation for building a really clear culture. I mean, you've always been, I think, very specific about the kind of environment you're trying to create. What does that look like now in a, if not post pandemic, then at least hopefully a slightly calmer pandemic world? How do you go about creating a culture now that is based on some people being around physically and other people not?
Evin Shutt: (27:17)
It's a good question. When people ask about our culture, I always start with our people. I'm like, “You mean our people?” Our people are our culture. And so, even as we were hiring people during the pandemic and we were all remote, there were all these questions of, how are they going to feel our culture? Is it going to be okay? And what we kept hearing back from new starters was, “I just feel it's different because of the humans I'm interacting with, and how I'm treated, and how I'm communicated with, and how we communicate with our partners, and how we show up listening and asking questions, and genuinely wanting to understand and not with a different agenda.” And so for me, it's come down to just, make sure we have the right people who are pushing us forward, and that we're listening.
All that said, the events in person that we used to have, we're trying to figure out, how do we do those? When do we bring people in? What does that look like? What's the right cadence of it? When I'm traveling or different leaders are traveling to different areas, how do we make sure we, “Oh, hey, I'm going to be in Florida. We have four employees in Florida now. Is that a chance to get together with them and just break bread?” I think those are key moments. But for me, it's so much of just about the people that want to opt in to building this community that we have, and continue to progress it and evolve it, that's dictating our culture even virtually.
Charles: (28:34)
You've obviously made choices throughout your career. As you look back from where you are today, do you have any regrets?
Evin Shutt: (28:44)
I don't think so. It's interesting. I feel like I just take it all as learning. Yes, there's things I wish I hadn't said, or I wish I'd taken time to learn. I think it's the old, the older you get and the more experienced you get, the more you realize what you don't know and how much you don't know (laughs). And so if anything, I look back and I'm, like, “Oh, I really thought I knew that. That's funny.” And now it's about using that as the inspiration to stop and listen, and ask the questions.
And, you know, sometimes you do have to make decisions and you don't have time to ask all the questions you want. But if you don't just make those calls, you're not going to move forward. Now, I think it's less regret and more learning of, like, “Oh, I should have done it that way. That would've been better.” But I think from a career standpoint, my objective has always been to just create opportunities for myself and others, so that you have it, and we can choose to take it or not.
Charles: (29:47)
You have such a relentlessly positive perspective, I've always found. Where do you think that comes from?
Evin Shutt: (29:54)
That's a good question, too. I don't know. I think just the choice of… there's a lot of things that are hard in life. Maybe even from when I was a teacher and saw people in a lot harder situations than I was in, but the belief that if you can find the opportunities, and for some of my students, we could find the opportunities and education was access. There's ways to get through it. Not saying there aren't things that are hard and there aren't obstacles, obviously there are many, many, and many people have much harder ones than I have ever imagined. But there's so many stories of perseverance that it's hard to look at any situation, acknowledge it's hard, and not find, what could we do to find a way through it? There has to be a way, to make this better.
So, I don't know. I find dwelling too much on what's wrong can, in our industry in particular, can just lead to more negativity and sarcasm and all of those things. And I think it's important to have those conversations and then move forward of what do we need to do, whether that's more learning, whether that's more listening or action. There's always ways to be better. It's a thirst for learning, probably, is a big part of it. Everything's a learning opportunity.
Charles: (31:15)
Yeah. It's such a positive perspective. Positive energy begets positive energy. And I think, to your point, there is nothing like enough of it in the world at the moment. One of the topics I've really been drawn to over the last few weeks and months, I think, in talking to people both on the podcast and in my own work, is the question of emotional safety within the workplace. I think with businesses that depend on creative thinking and innovation for their success, the idea of emotional safety seems on the surface, like a really good thing, but we both know that there's a tension that's necessary to do really great work.
I was talking to somebody yesterday who's about to create a piece of work next week and said it's the most challenging thing they've ever done. And he said it with a smile on his face. What do you think is the role of emotional safety in a company for whom creativity is vital?
Evin Shutt: (32:04)
Oh, I think it's critical. But I think you only get to that point if you have a brave and safe environment, where it's okay and people are inspired by it and want to push boundaries, but I think it's so complex. You know, when I think about conversations we've had internally over the last two years, in particular around diversity and representation and being able to bring your whole self to work. And especially when you come to creating work and people evaluating work who have different backgrounds than those who are bringing it.
And I think if we can't unlock how to embrace that and how to allow people to do that, we're never going to get to great ideas and we are missing out on so many great ideas that can change business, that can change culture, and evolve really the world, I think, in many ways. So, I think it is a huge priority. I would be the first to say, I don't think we've cracked it at 72andSunny. I think we have moments and pockets, and we're definitely on the journey to it, but I think it's a huge part of how you get to great creativity and ideas, is creating environments for bravery, and for full emotional presence.
Charles: (33:21)
And what have you learned about establishing that kind of environment? What has to be true?
Evin Shutt: (33:26)
You need creative leaders who are open to great ideas, can look different, can come from different backgrounds and not just what you know. I think we are really lucky to have quite a few creative leaders who bring that, and a lot of that is diverse representation in those disciplines themselves. I think one of the challenges often is, while you might have it on an agency side, then a client doesn't. And the client's not comfortable with it, because it's not an idea where that is comfortable to them, even though their target audience, it might be. And so I feel like we're just constantly trying to... That worked, what worked about it? How do we learn from that and share that training and knowledge across the board? And what I really think we're still navigating is how we help clients on that journey then, as well. Because I think sometimes you can create it inside your own little bubble in an agency or a team, but it's not the same as when you go to the clients.
And so how do you get the clients comfortable with that? You know, we do a quarterly book club and it's really been an internal conversation, around race, and diversity and inclusion. And we've talked about, do we bring clients into that? Do we not? And so much of it is where we were as a company for many years, we needed it to be internal, but at what point can we bring others in, so it can help us in conversations to get to better work and more security in presenting those ideas? So, we're still figuring it out, if I'm honest (laughs).
Charles: (34:57)
Yeah. A lot of people are struggling with this, I think. And I think there is a competitive advantage built into the way the agency has always gone about it, because I think so many people are suddenly realizing, “Oh, this is something we've never really considered, and we're going to have to actually start to build an environment.” And it's hard to play catch up, I think, in this, because it has to come from a place of sincerity and authenticity, to use a cliched word.
Evin Shutt: (35:20)
That's true though. Yeah.
Charles: (35:21)
Yeah. It is true. There's no question. Last two questions for you. How do you lead?
Evin Shutt: (35:30)
How do I lead? I think… I'm trying to, you know, step out of myself on that one. I think I start with... I always start with probably three questions. It starts with, is that the right way and the modern way, for where we are today and where we're going? And for me, that encapsulates for our people, for our business, for our clients, for the marketing landscape in the world. And then, what impact is that going to have on all of those pieces? And it starts first with the humans and that human could be the CMO at a key client. That could be the executive assistant at our office in Amsterdam. Of, is this going to help us be a better place for them for growth and for impact?
And I usually start there because, as much as 72andSunny is lauded for our culture and our people, I'd never want to be a really great company with no business either. And I think we have to constantly remind ourselves of that. Of, we are a business who is building a really rich community and has over the years. But we are a business and we have to make sure we're delivering those results and thinking about our clients' business through that lens in order to do so. So, while I start with the, what's the modern, the best way to address it for humans, it's also pretty often closely tied to, what does this mean for the business and how do we think about it?
Charles: (37:09)
And what are you afraid of?
Evin Shutt: (37:14)
I tend to be an impatient person. Although my husband says I'm very impatient. I say it's because I use up all of my patience all day.
But, you know, I think part of this role is planning two years out, and waiting for changes to happen when you're slowly making them happen, is hard. And in this time where change has been so accelerated and our business has evolved so quickly, I mean the conversation about the metaverse today on every single blog that you look at versus what even six months ago the talk of it, and how fast that has become a big part of the zeitgeist, makes me very anxious of, we've got to make sure we're changing fast enough and evolving fast enough, and staying true to who we are and why we're relevant to be in this world and a leader in this industry. So, for me, it's the balance of change and impact, and how we manage that, I think, like many leaders probably (laughs).
Charles: (38:17)
Thank you so much for coming back on today and sharing. I've always appreciated and marveled, actually, at your willingness and your ability to look at problem three dimensionally. But when you combine it with the humanity and the generosity that you bring, I think that combination of attributes, from a leadership standpoint and a human standpoint, is so incredibly rare. And thank you for coming on and sharing today.
Evin Shutt: (38:36)
Thank you for having me. And, right back at you, thank you for this platform and the stories you share. We all learn a ton from you.
Charles: (38:42)
Thank you. So nice of you.
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