Greg Hahn of Mischief USA
What do you want more of in your life?
"FEARLESS CREATIVE LEADERSHIP" PODCAST - TRANSCRIPT
Episode 197: Greg Hahn
Here’s a question. What do you want more of in your life?
I’m Charles Day. I work with creative and innovative companies. I coach their leaders to help them succeed where leadership has its greatest impact. The intersection of strategy and humanity.
This week’s guest is Greg Hahn. He’s the Co-Founder & CCO of Mischief USA.
Two years ago he was fired by BBDO.
When we spoke, eight days after he had lost his job, he was clear about the kind of future he wanted to create.
“I don't know if this is the big aha moment, but I just think we need to bring more fun back into the industry. More joy. It seems like nobody's really happy in advertising and I don't think that should be. It didn't always used to be that way. I think we need to bring a little more... thinking just mischief.” - Greg Hahn, Episode 208
Mischief, a company that didn’t exist 24 months ago, were just named Agency of the Year by the Ad Age A List Awards.
As you’ll hear in our new conversation, the company has been built on the principles that Greg espoused two years ago.
Life comes at us fast and in unexpected ways.
What we do with every day that we get, is a choice, between hoping for a better version of yesterday or acting to create a better tomorrow.
And the key to that is making sure we know what a better version of tomorrow will look like.
So, what do you want more of in your life?
Here’s Greg Hahn.
Charles: (01:48)
Greg, welcome back to Fearless. Thank you so much for coming back on the show.
Greg Hahn: (01:52)
Thank you. Thank you for having me back. I'm looking forward to talking to you again.
Charles: (01:56)
We spoke at a very interesting point in your journey almost exactly two years ago. I think a month shy of two years ago. You'd just been let go by BBDO. The world was in the early stages of the pandemic. Everything seemed bleak. Two years later, you are leading the agency that was just named Agency of the Year by the Ad Age A List. I ask everybody these days, how have you been changed by the last two years? I'm really interested to hear your answer to that question.
Greg Hahn: (02:24)
God, it's so hard to answer that. So many ways, you know, it almost feels like… I mean, personally I have grown a lot. I think I've learned a ton. The world has changed. It's almost easier to say what's remain the same. you know? It's just hard to compare the two worlds. I remember last time we talked, it was eight days after I was let go from BBDO. So it was still sort of like a shock at that point or, you know, the world... We didn't know what we were going to expect in the next two years.
Charles: (03:01)
The change is obviously massive and monumental. And actually, I think your question is an interesting one. So what is the same for you? Let's start there.
Greg Hahn: (03:09)
Well, the same is this underlying passion for creativity and doing what we do, and just loving the making and the creating something and the building something part of it. And the form of that has changed in some interesting ways, but it's still, you know, I have a passion for creating something. And answering interesting problems. And the world has thrown so many new, interesting challenges at us that I've kind of found it invigorating.
Charles: (03:40)
Why did you decide to be part of starting your own thing? What was it about that that you found appealing as a concept?
Greg Hahn: (03:46)
I wanted to do something that felt different than what I was doing over the last few years. You know, it felt like the pandemic and this whole reset was the time to start something different. It gave everybody an excuse to kind of pause and evaluate what's next. For me, what's next, the most exciting thing, you know, I talked to a lot of people in between before I started this. And the most exciting thing just kept coming back to, what if we could create some place that doesn't exist yet and build it the way we'd want to, instead of trying to fit or retrofit into a different model.
Charles: (04:23)
And have you been able to do that in exactly the way you wanted to?
Greg Hahn: (04:27)
I have. It's been amazingly freeing. You know, like I said, when I first got let go, and I was looking around, I talked to a lot of people just to… exploring and had some great conversations and some very, very helpful talks with some amazing people. Like some of the brightest brains in the industry. And in doing that, I found this agency called No Fixed Address, which is completely different than anything I'd ever talked, any sort of business I'd ever met with. And just the way that they operated was so flexible and free and built for what's coming versus like, you know, what had been.
So, just talking with the founder, Dave Lafond, he threw out the idea of like, have you ever thought of starting your own place? And I always had it in the back of my mind, but quickly put it out my mind. It requires a lot of skills that I do not have, which is like, you know, the business side of it and HR, all those other things as a creative, I just didn't feel like dealing with. So it was easier for me to kind of picture myself jumping into something that already existed. But Dave said, "Well, what if we built something in your vision? And I took care of the stuff you didn't want to do?" And that's kind of a… that is a hard offer not to pay attention to. And we just connected so well, he's so genuine. And everything we talked about has sort of come to fruition.
Charles: (05:51)
You know, we are living in such traumatic times. Obviously the pandemic was traumatizing, obviously the situation in Ukraine is traumatizing. People are looking for ways to feel safe. You've talked in stuff that you've written about Mischief, about creating a company that allowed you to do work that you would do if you weren't afraid. How have you created that environment in the midst of this maelstrom that we're living through?
Greg Hahn: (06:17)
Yeah. All we can control is what we can control. So I can give people the space to be themselves and not worry about everything they say or everything they do getting them in some sort of trouble. If you believe in what you want to do, this is a place to come do it. I can't make the world safe for them, but I can make Mischiefs a safe place for them to express themselves in order to do what, you know…
I wanted to create a place for people come and do the best work of their lives, and I can help them get there, in control, what we can control. A lot of it, you know, is coming from a world where I was working at a holding company and you have to be very conscious about every move you make, because there's so many big clients and, and affects big business and shareholders to answer to. I just didn't want to answer to anybody. I wanted to have my control of my own future. And I always felt like no matter what level you get to in the company, you're still answering to other people. And you know, I just wanted to be free from that.
Charles: (07:24)
And the purity of this, I mean, from the outside, it looks like an incredibly pure journey where you've created an environment that allows you to do the work you want to do for the clients that you want to do in an environment that you want to create, which sounds blindingly obvious. But, to your point, is not these days in the complexity that is the advertising and marketing industry. Do you think that this represents a model for the future for other people going forward? I mean, do you think that this is going to inspire other people to say, "Why are we making this so difficult and challenging? Why don't we just create a simpler model for ourselves?"
Greg Hahn: (07:53)
I hope so. I hope so. Charles, I remember when we talked two years ago, I was listening back to it. And some things we're saying was just how hard advertising had gotten and how there's no place where people can just have fun. It shouldn't be this complicated. So that's always stuck with me in the back of my mind, is if I were to create another agency, it would be a model where we just don't get in each other's way. You know, everybody's collaborative and we're in it together and building something that's kind of what we wanted to do.
Charles: (08:25)
What gets in the way of that happening? What do you have to focus on to make sure that you are actually creating that kind of environment for people?
Greg Hahn: (08:32)
Well, everyone just needs to understand why they're there. Part of the reason I named the agency Mischief is because I wanted to sort of self-select the people who worked here and the people and the clients who were attracted to us, and we were going to be an agency that stirred things up and believed in creativity to change minds, you know, to influence things. And that was the guiding principles. We're here to stir things up and have fun with it. So when you bring people together that all understand that mission, it's a lot easier.
There's no conflicting, I guess, motivations, everybody is in it together to do the best work of their careers. A lot of times at bigger agencies, you inherit people in accounts and things like that. This is a chance to start from scratch and build it the way, you know, I thought it should be done.
Charles: (09:31)
Do you worry about being able to maintain this? What do you think are the obstacles? What are the challenges, you think, to maintaining this?
Greg Hahn: (09:36)
Yeah. I worry nightly about maintaining it. That's the thing that keeps me up. I think, you know, the bigger an agency gets, the less you have control. So that's why it's important to establish what you stand for. So, you know, there's that filter again, of clients come to you for the reason you exist. I don't think a lot of agencies these days have a strong brand, and they kind of all blend together. So that leads to, again, conflicting purposes at time. If you have clarity and vision, clarity and purpose, I think that will help as you grow, you know, remain pure.
Charles: (10:20)
And did you sit down and define that before you started the business? I mean, how intentional were you about putting these feelings and ideas into words and actions?
Greg Hahn: (10:30)
You know, I didn't realize how intentional I was until I went back and listened to our podcast. That's exactly the same thing we were talking about. I think it was always in me, and then once Dave and I started building this place, and then we brought our President Kerry McKibbin and we started to… this thing started to become real, you'd kind of have to put that down on paper. And we just wrote this manifesto about the safe place for dangerous ideas and creating a space where people could come and do the best work possible and where clients weren't afraid to take risks. You know, that's a subjective term. I don't quite see it as risky. The kind of work we're doing, I think it's calculated. There's a difference between being fearless and being reckless. I think we do fearless work. We don't do risky reckless work.
Charles: (11:17)
Well, and I think you made the point last time we talked about the fact that it's actually risky to do safe work.
Greg Hahn: (11:22)
Yeah, that's exactly, you're right. So you're right. That's a founding principle of ours, too. So, you know, it's always been baked in there. And, you know, to certain extent BBDO had that same philosophy, it's just I'm able to control it a little bit more now and build from that.
Charles: (11:40)
That's actually an interesting reference point, and maybe you can't accurately answer this, but I'm just curious about your instinctive answer. So to the extent to which you can control it differently now, how different is your ability to control the work, the experience, the outcome, compared to when you were working for a large agency owned by a large holding company?
Greg Hahn: (12:00)
Well, I don't know if this is a circumstance resulting from the pandemic or just the model that we have now. Probably little bit more than later is how close we have gotten to the people are making the decisions about the ad on the client side. There's very few layers between us and the CMOs. You know, I've text message relationships with CMOs of some of the largest corporations. And I think we've all gotten to know each other so much because we're in each other's homes virtually and much easier to connect, you don't have to fly or set up a long formal meeting. You can just quickly chat or hop on a Zoom with these people. So I think, I don't know if that's, again, just because the way the world's working now, or the model, but being very close to our clients and collaborating with them gives you a lot more control and, you know, trust to do the kind of work that you both want to do.
Charles: (12:59)
As you look back at the last two years, do you think that BBDO letting you go was actually a gift? I mean, did it just give you an opportunity that you might not have been actually able to use or take advantage of otherwise?
Greg Hahn: (13:10)
Yeah, 100%. That's been the biggest lesson is, you know, sometimes the worst endings, so to speak, are the best beginnings. You know, I think that, at the time, everyone tells you, you know, "Don't worry, it's the best thing that you, that can happen to you." And it's hard to believe that. But, I didn't spend a lot of time dwelling on it. It's like it is what it is, you know? It's the way the cards fall and, you know, fate often has a better plan than you do.
Charles: (13:42)
Fate's a risky strategy.
Greg Hahn: (13:45)
Yep. Yes, it is. But I believe, you know, you can't fight it. You just have to lean into it and make the best of it. So I'm very stoic, in that way of, you know, these are the cards you're dealt with, turn it into a great hand.
Charles: (14:02)
Yeah. And I think there's a real lesson in that. I wonder… I was wondering whether you thought there was another lesson in this, as well, which is, it's so easy to stay on the same ride, right? And you had had such a phenomenal ride at BBDO. I mean, you were feted, accomplished, awarded, recognized, compensated.
Greg Hahn: (14:20)
Yeah.
Charles: (14:20)
I'm just wondering whether looking back, the act itself of being let go, turned into… you have turned it into a real positive. Do you think there was anything to be learned about, maybe I should have initiated this myself rather than letting somebody else have that kind of agency over my own future?
Greg Hahn: (14:38)
It was such a good gig, you know. I loved the people, I loved the work. You know, yeah, I had one of the better jobs in advertising at the time, so I thought. So that's why, when I did get let go, it's almost… it was a gift in some ways, because it'd been so easy for me to just ride it out there and that's not what I wanted. It's just not in me to do that. I felt like it was a change I needed, not the one I asked for.
Charles: (15:05)
Yeah. I just wonder whether people listening to this might take away, maybe pushing themselves to create the opportunity that you've taken advantage of.
Greg Hahn: (15:14)
Yeah. The world threw me into my opportunity, but I think it would've been better, you know, if you're a creative and you're at the point where you're thinking like, you know what tomorrow's going to bring, maybe it’s time to change. That was one thing, when I was deciding where to go next, was this whole idea of, you know, life is made up of days and if you're just not excited by your days, it doesn't matter what you do. So I just wanted to jump into something that I was just like, I wake up just psyched to… I can't get started early enough, and that's my definition of success.
Charles: (15:55)
Yeah. I mean, I think that's such a healthy attitude, and I see that more and more in people, I think probably as a result of the pandemic and making us all more self reflective, that people are starting to evaluate, “What's really important to me? And how much do I want to have influence directly over my own career path and my own future, my own life,” to your point, “rather than just waiting for somebody else to decide what's right for me.”
Greg Hahn: (16:16)
That was another major lesson. This is like a school. You know, this whole pandemic, like a college course in life. But that the idea of like, I don't ever want anyone else to have control for me because, you know, decisions are made in rooms that you've never been in about your future and that's a scary place to live, right? So I really stressed in my next move, I want to be able to write my own future.
Charles: (16:45)
And are you building a company in which that's also true for the people that work for you?
Greg Hahn: (16:49)
I hope so. You know, we're all very… it's very open here. The culture here is we're pretty flat, we talk to each other a lot and we're honest with each other. And again, that comes back to, don't be afraid that you're going to get fired for something you say. So, you know, it's not the way we operate here. Dave Lafond had on his website, the very opening page of No Fixed Address website was, ‘‘What Would You Do If You Weren't Afraid?’ And that's the guiding force of Mischief [inaudible]. That you have to believe in that. Like, if you can be a space where you would operate in a way that would be true to yourself, instead of centering yourself or making you feel like you're inauthentic or you're not doing what you feel is right, then you're in the wrong place.
Charles: (17:40)
And does that make you look for certain kinds of people who inherently bring that kind of resolve, that kind of energy, that mindset?
Greg Hahn: (17:50)
People are maybe naturally drawn to that, because hopefully you can feel it in the work, that we're just a different kind of place and a different kind of energy. So maybe people are naturally drawn to that. But you really don't know that until you start working with people. And so, so far, yes, that's the kind of people we have, are just open collaborative, easy and fun to work with. Like, people could read that as being abrasive or, you know, I don't know, sort of out there and in your face. But that's not at all the vibe here. It's very collaborative and everyone's here to help each other. I think the sense is that we are building something from scratch to show people that there's a different way. And when everyone's kind of united in that mission, there's a real energy towards that.
Charles: (18:38)
This sounds such an obvious way to work. I mean, I say that with respect, because it's difficult to build a company like this. But it sounds such an obvious way to work. Why do you think more people don't just go about it the way that you have? Create an environment where people can do the best work of their lives, reward people for being fearless, create an environment in which clients are connected with directly. Why do you think the industry makes it more complicated than this?
Greg Hahn: (19:05)
Well, I think there… you'll start to see a lot of more companies like this. I think it's harder to, again, to inherit an environment and massive agency and create a place like that because they weren't just weren't founded that way or set up that way. So, if you're starting from scratch, it's a lot easier to create the environment that is built under that vision. Very difficult to come into a big agency or any business and change it that way. It's scary for big agencies to operate like that. Any time you're answering to shareholders, you operate under a different set of principles.
Charles: (19:45)
Because you built this agency literally in the middle of a pandemic when everybody was sitting at home. And because culture, as you said, is such an important part of your success. How have you created a culture when people have had so little time physically being together?
Greg Hahn: (20:00)
Yeah. It's tough in that you do spend a lot of time online. But the advantage of that is, again, it's instantaneous and also you're kind of seeing each other at home in their most relaxed environment. And we constantly text and Zoom and I'm in contact with these people, with the people I work with, throughout the night. And just not talking about work, just fun stuff or whatever. We just built this culture of like a bunch of people who were thrown into the same circumstance, learning about each other.
And some of these people I had known for past, so it wasn't all like a bunch of strangers, but I just think this unity of mission and in this spirit of we're going to do something different, has bonded us. We do have an office now, which is great. And, you know, it's just a place… more like a sort of built off the Andy Warhol factory model where people can just come and collide ideas and get some, you know, time together, and see what happens when brains kind of collide in person. It is a lot easier to collaborate that way and just decide conversations and things that spring up that aren't scheduled.
Charles: (21:18)
What have you learned about yourself in doing this?
Greg Hahn: (21:22)
Probably that I'm a lot more resilient than I would've thought, you know, give myself credit for. I was always afraid, you know, since the day I started advertising, I was always, always afraid of getting fired. So when the worst thing that happens to you, or the worst thing you think that could happen to you happens to you, and you're okay, it changes you, it makes you less… It makes you fearless in the fact that like, what else could happen, you know? I've already been through that. So I know I can handle that. So, you know, it comes back to embracing fate.
Charles: (22:02)
How has your leadership evolved now that it's your business and your responsibility?
Greg Hahn: (22:08)
Yeah. I found myself in a position where I have to really pay attention to having a vision or having something that people can follow, because, you know, people are giving up their lives and they're moving to a new city, in some cases, and they're putting their trust and their faith in me. So I want them to be sure that I know where we're going and I know what I'm trying to build, and we're going to do something that is going to last and have a profound impact. So, I keep that in the back of my head of like, I'm no longer in this just for me. I'm working for a bunch of people right now.
Charles: (22:44)
And does that change your decision making? Does that change your approach on a day-to-day basis?
Greg Hahn: (22:49)
Not really. In the fact that, again, it's all purity in mission. We're all aligned on what we want to do and what kind of work we want to create. So I've had to say no to a lot of things that would've been seemingly on paper, good opportunities or good money, but in the long term, it would change us or affect us in a way I didn't see fit. I've been able to do that because I think people have come here because they believe that we know the path to go on. So, it's made me feel more responsible than before.
Charles: (23:22)
I just want to go back to this idea of creating an environment which people are absent of fear. On a practical level, I'm just so struck by that, because obviously the name of the podcast is Fearless but it's hard to get to that place. How do you go about doing that on a one-to-one human level? What are the kinds of conversations you have with people that give them the confidence that you really mean that? How do you go about creating that environment?
Greg Hahn: (23:47)
I think we're always open to the ideas, but then we talk about it. You're never going to get in trouble for bringing an idea. But when it comes to selling quote unquote fearless work, it's really bringing the client along with us and having these conversations with them. We tell clients, we're not a tada agency where we come and here's the answer. We're more of an aha agency. We bring them along the way. And we never do anything just for the sake of doing something out there. It always is backed by really strong strategy.
So having every reason is a good way to alleviate some fear. On a personal level, having people understand. I think it's just the environment we're creating. And that comes with just process of not having a process. There's a lot of informality here and they can talk to us as if we're people. A lot of places, you talk to people that are in charge and you feel like you have to walk on eggshells, or you're afraid of slipping up, or there's a certain persona you have to adopt when talking to the leaders. And we try to have none of that artifice here. Again, we're the factory of people coming in and just jamming.
Charles: (25:02)
One of the things we talked about last time was that you thought that the pandemic actually had created space for people to be able to think. The fact that people were spending more time by themselves or at home and had peaceful, quiet environments around them, relatively, was actually… created a different kind of energy and created a different kind of opportunity for people to actually think. Two years later, do you think that's true? Has that been born out for you that giving people room and space can help the quality of thinking? Or does that not show up as actually being true?
Greg Hahn: (25:32)
Well, what I don't think it's true is that people have the time to think. At least that's been kind of the truth in our world, is that everything is scheduled now back to back to back to back to back. It's become… we've become so efficient. So again, that's why we really thought it was important to open an office where people can come in and be a little looser with their schedules and just hang. Because I do think that one thing that happened in the pandemic is we all thought that we were going to have more time, but we've all become more busy and more, more efficient and more scheduled and regimented. So I think now that the world's starting to open up, we're going to appreciate what we took for granted in having a little bit breathing space.
Charles: (26:18)
So does that actually become codified, if you will, institutionalized? You actually have to build that breathing, thinking space back into people's lives again?
Greg Hahn: (26:26)
Yeah. Yeah. I do think so. Like, in the beginnings and middles of the pandemic, we were just so in it, every moment was blocked out hour by hour on your calendar, and you're back to back to back. And I think, like, at the end of the day, sometimes you're like, “Wait, I don't even know what happened today. What did we…?” You know, I remember coming down from, you know, from working in our home and my wife was like, "So how was your day? What happened?" I was like, "I have no idea. I'm spinning right now." But it's been refreshing to kind of actually just have some space, and be with people and have impromptu meetings where you don't have to put it on people's calendars.
Charles: (27:08)
How do you lead today?
Greg Hahn: (27:14)
Not that differently than I did before. I think it's more by example than fear or anything or any sort of games. It's just, I try to put up an example as far as, like, a bar for the work to sit and just hopefully how to treat people and listen and not be the kind of leader that makes you afraid to come to them with some ideas or that you're going to get yelled at or anything like that. You know, I like people to come in, feel okay to collaborate a little bit. You don't have to have all the answers. I'm not going to grade your paper. It's more about like, what's going to happen at the end of this meeting versus what happens at the beginning.
Charles: (28:01)
And what are you afraid of?
Greg Hahn: (28:03)
Well, like we talked about ,again, it's the fear of not matching expectations. Like, now the bar's pretty high for us and I love that, but in some ways it's easier when no one sees you coming.
Charles: (28:22)
Actually, I have one other question for you, which is how's your daughter doing after two years of the pandemic?
Greg Hahn: (28:26)
It’s such a difference being in school. Like it was really hard on kids being out of school, and she became kind of, you know, glued to her camera like others, and very isolated. Now that she's back in school, it's like, a whole different world for her. She has friends sleep over, and gosh, I think this pandemic has had such a toll on kids that we're going to probably see a little bit of that in the next few years of how that's affected them. Although I will say kids are remarkably resilient and two days back in school was like the pandemic was behind us, as far as her mentality went.
Charles: (29:07)
I'm glad to hear that. Yeah, I think you're right. Such a hard time for kids. And I think for people in their early 20s, as well, trying to figure out the navigation between academia and the working world and without any kind of, you know, social cues or community dynamics really difficult. We're going to be hearing about that for years to come, I think.
Greg Hahn: (29:24)
I believe so. I think that it's a major disadvantage for juniors and people starting out, not having the ability to look over someone's shoulder and watch what they're doing day in and day out. So, again, it's sort of the reason that we want to have a space that people can come into.
Charles: (29:41)
Greg, thanks so much for coming back on the show and congratulations. I mean, you really do stand as a beacon and, in many ways, I think, a case study for what's possible when the unexpected happens and turning that to your advantage. So, I wish you nothing but success going forward. It's just a remarkable story.
Greg Hahn: (29:56)
Oh, thank you, Charles. It was really great to talk to you again. And yeah, I look forward to speaking in two more years.
Charles: (30:02)
Absolutely. We'll make a date to do that.
Greg Hahn: (30:05)
Let's do it. All right, my friend.
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