Vincent Bragg & Joe Nickson of Con Creates
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't – you're right.
"FEARLESS CREATIVE LEADERSHIP" PODCAST - TRANSCRIPT
Episode 187: Vincent Bragg & Joe Nickson
Here’s a question. How much power do you give the past?
I’m Charles Day. I work with creative and innovative companies. I coach their leaders to help them maximize their impact and grow their business. To help them succeed where leadership has its greatest impact. The intersection of strategy and humanity.
This week’s guests are Vincent Bragg and Joe Nickson, two of the co-founders of ConCreates. They started the company in federal prison where, as you’ll hear, you can learn a lot about business and even more about life.
“I feel, like, honored to be a trailblazer from this kind of standpoint, you know. Happy to explain to folks that have been incarcerated or that just don't know that creativity is even a career path. You can literally make money with using your imagination. You know what I mean? There's honor in that.”
There are so many aspects to the story of ConCreates that it’s difficult to know which ones to highlight.
The resilience of human beings.
The power of imagination.
The capacity to look beyond the easy, obvious presentation of who someone is to see the person beyond that.
And the possibilities that appear when we become clear about the impact we want to make.
All of these truths have one thing in common.
A willingness to see ourselves not through the mists of our past - the stories we have told ourselves about our history, our circumstances, our limitations.
But through a lens that is focused on our future. Who we want to be, the difference we want to make, the impact we want to leave behind.
It is said that the greatest lesson of history is that we do not learn the lessons of history.
Unless we do. And then everything is possible.
Here are Vincent Bragg and Joe Nickson.
Charles: (01:55)
Vincent and Joe, welcome to Fearless. Thank you both so much for coming on the show.
Vincent Bragg: (02:00)
Thank you for having us.
Joe Nickson: (02:01)
Thank you for having us.
Charles: (02:03)
Vincent. Let me start with you. When did creativity first show up in your life? When were you first conscious of creativity as a thing?
Vincent Bragg: (02:11)
You know what, I haven't been asked that in a long time, but I can honestly say… My cousin had moved out from Chicago when I was probably about 12 and he was already like an artist. Like he was a rapper and I just used to love how girls would respond to it and I'm like, "I could do that." You know? So, you know, started kind of just like writing, you know, as a creative outlet. And so, yeah, probably about 12, 11, 12 years old.
Charles: (02:45)
How did you express yourself growing up?
Vincent Bragg: (02:48)
I used to be really quiet. I played sports and, you know, stuff like that, but I used to just be like really introverted and I believe music production, writing that allowed me to find a voice or have a voice.
Charles: (03:05)
And Joe, what about you? When did creativity first show up in your life?
Joe Nickson: (03:10)
I would honestly have to say my freshman year in high school, my American Literature teacher from homework, she was adamant like, "Joe, you need to write, I don't know you have, you have a gift." That's like… I remember her name was Ms. Sheer - shout out Ms. Sheer, Birmingham High School, my American Literature teacher. We need to reach out to her. But most definitely right then and there, she showed me the importance of such.
Charles: (03:40)
And did you start writing at that point? Did you take her up on that?
Joe Nickson: (03:44)
Well, it was is different because she gave me different assignments. So she catered to me, like I had a different curriculum from everybody else because she was like, she tried to shape that. So when everybody else was doing Great Expectations, she allowed me to read Manchild in the Promised Land by John Claude Brown. And do the same thing that everybody else was, but custom made it for me. So I thought that was always dope.
Charles: (04:12)
Vincent. What about you? Was there somebody in your life growing up that had that kind of effect on you?
Vincent Bragg: (04:17)
It was a few people. I would say probably like in the seventh grade, I had a teacher Mrs. Lawrence, that was the same way, who liked the way I told stories when I wrote. And so, she was definitely an inspiration. Again, my cousin Damone was definitely an inspiration because it was a different type of writing.
It was, you know, I don't know. He just had swag. He grew up in Chicago. And so he was, I always thought that they were more advanced, like their education system taught you things earlier. So he was always just like advanced, and so me trying to keep up with that, I think was a huge inspiration for me creatively.
Charles: (05:04)
You guys met in prison, right?
Vincent Bragg: (05:07)
Yeah.
Joe Nickson: (05:08)
Yeah.
Vincent Bragg: (05:09)
We happened to go to the same high school, though.
Charles: (05:11)
Is that right?
Joe Nickson: (05:12)
Yeah, imagine that.
Vincent Bragg: (05:14)
Yeah.
Charles: (05:15)
At the same time or different times?
Vincent Bragg: (05:18)
Yeah, I was right behind him. So I went to Birmingham when they were the Patriots and he went to Birmingham when they were the Braves. So I came like—
Joe Nickson: (05:27)
We were the last of the Braves.
Vincent Bragg: (05:28)
Right.
Joe Nickson: (05:29)
That was when the era where things became offensive and they were… that's one of the schools that they don't play those games. And it was like, "Don't even worry about it, we the Patriots.
Charles: (05:44)
Vincent, how did you end up in prison? What was the journey that took you into prison?
Vincent Bragg: (05:54)
I'll give it to you like this, right? So as the story goes, I had moved to Atlanta and I had two jobs and I was working at McDonald's and I was working at a steel plant. I have this scar on my head right here. And, you know, I almost died working at the steel plant. And so I told myself I would never work for anybody again.
Again, I was into music and production and so I had my own studio set up and thought, "Hey, I'm gonna go back to California and I'm gonna get some weed because artists feel like weed makes them more creative and I could have weed in the studio." And so I had a couple dollars, came back here, ran into one of my guys and I told him I wanted, you know, five.
And he tells me he could only get two. He assumed that I meant 500 pounds of weed because he brought me 200 pounds of weed and I kind of just had to figure it out, right? I had to, yeah, I couldn't take it back. Because there was like a no refund policy.
You know what I mean? No refund on the reefer, right? So, kind of just took off from there. It was, you know, just, I figured it out, you know, figured out how to get it from California to Atlanta. And, you know, just kind of got involved of in that manner.
And it just became more addicting and addicting and addicting to make large amounts of money. And so subsequently the United States of America didn't like that. And yeah, I was indicted for conspiracy to possess with intent to distribute 15 to 50 kilograms of cocaine.
Charles: (07:44)
Were you surprised when you got caught?
Vincent Bragg: (07:46)
I never got caught.
Charles: (07:48)
You never got caught?
Vincent Bragg: (07:50)
No, I never got caught. I think, you know, in the back of our mind, we always know that there's some consequences behind, you know, what we're doing. But I think it becomes a thing of invincibility. You start to feel like you're invincible and these certain things can't harm you.
Or, maybe you're smart enough, you know, to prevent that outcome, that everybody tells you like, "Hey, this is the outcome either dead or in jail, right?” And so, yeah, I think it was just the ego thing.
Charles: (08:30)
And what do you mean you never got caught?
Vincent Bragg: (08:33)
I never got caught doing anything. I turned myself in, you know, I got ratted on.
Charles: (08:40)
Somebody ratted on you. That's how this stopped, is because… and then you turned yourself in because you realized it was either run or stop?
Vincent Bragg: (08:48)
Exactly.
Charles: (08:50)
And you chose to stop.
Vincent Bragg: (08:52)
Mm-hmm (affirmative), yeah. You know, it was... I didn't get into it to… it wasn't the career, you know, that I wanted, right? It was a way out, you know, it was like a way out of the mundane, working at McDonald's, you know what I mean?
Like I said, like, you know, not too many options and all, and, in my mind at that time, you know, where I come from, it wasn't, you know, those types of options. I wasn't like a college grad or, you know, anything like that. So this looked, this looked like the best pathway.
Charles: (09:26)
And how long did you serve?
Vincent Bragg: (09:29)
I served five years, one month, 22 days.
Charles: (09:33)
Joe. What about you? How did you end up in prison?
Joe Nickson: (09:37)
So I was sentenced to 240 months in federal prison for conspiracy to commit bank robbery. Well, basically they said that I successfully robbed 27 banks by the age of 22, basically. And they were saying that I was doing these things across the country. They're saying these things were thought out strategically, no one was ever hurt.
And they just wanted to know what was going on with this. And like, who are these guys? And once they found out that it was a 22 year old kid, it was really deep because it goes to these FBI profilers, when your US dollars are being spent, right? You have to think about it. I never got caught, no physical evidence, none of this stuff.
Vincent Bragg: (10:25)
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Joe Nickson: (10:26)
And someone said something down the line, and similar to Vincent, and that's what it was. And I ended up serving 17 years, six months and three days.
Charles: (10:37)
17 years?
Joe Nickson: (10:38)
Yes.
Charles: (10:41)
How did you guys meet?
Vincent Bragg: (10:45)
The exact moment? I think when I got to the prison that I left from, he was already there for a couple years, but we just had mutual friends. We had some mutual friends and, you know, we kind of just hit it off, right? It was just, his energy is infectious. It's, his energy is big, you know what I mean?
It's like this little skinny dude, who is this skinny dude running around with this big voice, and you know what I mean? And we just kind of just became friends, like as a group, it was five of us. We all just ate together. We, you know, had our little creative think tanks together. We did all everything together.
Charles: (11:29)
And Joe, what did you see in Vincent? What drew you to Vincent?
Joe Nickson: (11:32)
Just the charisma, the same attributes I think that people see in me at times. We call it the George Jefferson walk. Like he's like, he has a walk that he's like, you know what I'm saying? Even though he is maybe 5’8”, he walks like he's 6’10” and he demands the room. So me being a leader, I demand the room as well. So, you know, birds of a feather, flock together.
Charles: (11:57)
And do you guys share the room well?
Joe Nickson: (12:00)
Very much. So this is so organically crazy. We often introduce one another as life partners. It's like the finishing the sentence is really corny, keeping it all the way solid is really important.
Charles: (12:15)
So what was the point at which you decided to go into business together? Forming a business partnership is a difficult, challenging, fragile process at the best of times. What made you guys decide that you wanted to be in business together?
Joe Nickson: (12:28)
Destiny. It was like, it was like, you know, when we don't know when the Creator puts lightning in a bottle, but we learned it very quickly.
Vincent Bragg: (12:40)
Right.
Joe Nickson: (12:41)
Very quickly that we were in the intersection of passion and purpose.
Vincent Bragg: (12:46)
And I also think too, it's easy in prison or in those kind of situations to dream together, right? We're all kind of wishing we were outside of this environment. And so it's easy to dream together and I know a lot of guys feel that way. It's like, "Oh, you know, my friend got out and then life kind of just took over." And, you know, maybe they don't stay in touch, you know, or maybe some of those, those ideas that they might have had, or those dreams that they had, fall to the wayside. So I was always one of those people who was like, "You know, I'm gonna do what I said." Like my word, I made a promise to my guys, you know what I mean? So, you know, I think that was also a huge defining factor, right? It's just like keeping our word. We dreamt about this together. We talked about it together, so we're gonna do it together.
Joe Nickson: (13:39)
And we did accidentally make ads that actually were in Super Bowl while we're in prison. Like it was kind of dope.
Charles: (13:47)
So tell us that story.
Joe Nickson: (13:50)
This is the origins, we're gonna give you the concise origin story of ConCreates here. So buckle up. So this is a day. This is a Thursday. And what we do is we often watch television in the television room because it's segregated by race. They all stay on certain televisions. So you have one that is on the news, one that's on sports. Then we have to differentiate.
You have one that has to stay on CNN News and one has to stay on Fox News because everybody has to be satisfied. So it's the thing. But this is the meeting spot. So what's going on, on the sports television is like, "Wait a minute. What's going on here?"
Football player by the name of Joseph Randall. He was the running back at the time for the Dallas Cowboys and what’s going on, all over the media saying he was arrested for stealing underwear, arrested for stealing underwear, arrested for stealing underwear.
Everybody always, especially nowatimes, they just throw you under the bus like it was... Well, us, being in a situation and being prisoners, we always want to like, "But did he really do it?"
Vincent Bragg: (14:54)
Right.
Joe Nickson: (14:55)
So we dissect—
Vincent Bragg: (14:57)
What was the circumstance?
Joe Nickson: (14:57)
What was the circumstance? Because it's not making sense for a football player to steal underwear. So as we do our research, we find out this gentleman was actually shopping and he purchased things before, and his son was accompanying him, and his son was going through his terrible twos.
So everybody knows if you have a kid, how that goes. And to calm his son down, he took his son out the store to calm him down and he didn't purchase the underwear and the cologne that he intended to buy along with the other stuff.
So it's all over the media. Well, we happened to be in prison with a founder of a startup company named MeUndies. “Hi Jonathan.” And we convinced Jonathan to like, "Jonathan, I have an idea.”
“We need to partner these guys up." First of all, if he was with your company, you're an online company anyway. And he wouldn't even have to worry about being in the store. Second of all, we need to turn this negative into a positive. Let's pay this, let's do something.
Let's implement these gorilla marketing techniques. Well, this happens on a Thursday, little wrist turning, finally pull the trigger. Sunday morning, Adam Schefter reports, “And news, Joseph Randall partners with MeUndies.” And it went through the moon.
We're on the Wall Street Journal, and we're everywhere. This is going crazy. But as this happens, we don't see our designated cook, Vincent, for two days. And we normally see each other every day and I'll let him tell this part of the story.
Vincent Bragg: (16:32)
So I had what he calls the Moses moment. And so I go to the top of the mountain, which is my cell. And I start really thinking through, "What if we actually had an agency? What if we started an agency to do this for other brands?” And so after—
Charles: (16:52)
I just want to clarify you're in prison at this moment, right?
Joe Nickson: (16:55)
Yeah.
Charles: (16:55)
You are both in prison, thinking through this process. Okay. I just want to make that we're clear about the context by which this has happened.
Vincent Bragg: (17:02)
Controlled movement, everything. I'm talking, federal prison. And so I come back, I come back, because now, you know, they're sending people to come find me. They don't know if I done went to the hall, they don't know what's going on with me. So I go back, I see Gree-, or we call him Greece, but I see Joe, and I ask him, "When you see a McDonald's commercial, who do you think does that?"
And he's like, "McDonald's." I was like, "No, these companies hire people to come up with ideas and to shoot ads and to, you know, do all this different stuff." So if we had that company, right, what would we call it? And him and all of his creative genius was like, “ConCreates, you know, convicts that create.” And so then that's when we started walking around the track, and really just like ironing out what this could look like as a business.
And so we started to now look at each other differently, right? I stopped looking at him as a bank robber. I started to look at him as a strategist, right? What are the skill sets that he possesses to even pull off those, those particular types of crime that are transferable into this industry or to this business, right? I didn't look at myself as a drug dealer.
I looked at myself as operations or a logistics expert. I looked at the tattoo artists as art directors. All of the different sort of positions that you need. We ironed it out, you know, then we had another success from behind prison and I'll kick it back over to Joe.
Joe Nickson: (18:46)
Oh, this was fantastic. This was like the drop the mic moment. Like, "This is too easy. We not doing this no more." Another football player by the name of Marshawn Lynch, Beast Mode.
Vincent Bragg: (19:01)
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Joe Nickson: (19:01)
Beast Mode kept on getting into trouble for grabbing at his crotch. Cause this, he was making, in the cultures perspective, he was running so hard when he jumped in the end zone, he was making a vulgar gesture. Like, "Y'all know what it is. Y'all know what I just did." And you know how the NFL feels. They're like, "Uh-uh (negative) buddy, knock it off."
I was like, guess what though? We need to grab him. We need to holler. We need Marshawn Lynch. And guess what? Why, in this small world, is Marshawn Lynch's cousin happened to be in prison with us, too. So yet again, we pulled this trigger, orchestrated yet another deal.
And he scored in the Super Bowl that year. When asked why he didn't grab at his crotch simply, "Because I wear the world's most comfortable underwear." Guerilla marketing technique at it's finest. We in the building. ConCreate.
Vincent Bragg: (19:57)
And that went crazy. We talking earned media out of this world, over hundreds of millions of impressions, sales for MeUndies skyrocketed. And these were kind of their two breakout campaigns, and what's even crazier about it is it came from the relationship or some folks sitting in prison walls.
Joe Nickson: (20:22)
As mentioned a great deal in the Entrepreneur magazine. Yeah. You guys should check it out. It's really interesting.
Charles: (20:29)
It's an absolutely incredible set of stories. I mean, it's remarkable to have been able to recognize these skills, tap into them, do something with them. That would be remarkable if you weren't serving at the pleasure of the American government, but to do it within the context of that is just extraordinary.
So obviously you realize you have a business capability, right? You have a partnership, you have the ability to tap into other people, to have culture forming ideas. I mean, there's so many aspects of this that it touches from a leadership standpoint. At what point did you decide to formalized the business, and were you coming out of prison at the same time?
Vincent Bragg: (21:07)
I came home first. And so, you know, I know Joe always tells this story about the day before, you know, I was leaving, right? I had made this promise that I was gonna build imagination’s playground. So because that's really… all we had in prison was our imagination.
And you know, so I came home first. I joined the prisoner entrepreneurship program called Defy Ventures where I learned the fundamentals of starting a business. I had excellent mentorship. I think I had more mentors in that program than anybody in that program.
Like folks really liked the idea of ConCreates and lended their expertise to help us really shape the core values making sure we're maintaining our integrity, you know, all those good things. And so one of my mentors introduced me to a man named Tim Jones at the time he was over at 72andSunny New York. And so, he understood it immediately.
Now mind you, I'm going everywhere. I'm knocking on all the doors, I'm trying to get investment to get this thing off the ground. I'm looking for partnerships, I'm knocking on agency doors, I'm talking to holding companies, all the things, and you know, nobody really saw the value, if you will.
And so Tim Jones did, he got it immediately. He understood the importance of our existence in this industry. The demand for out of the box and fresh thinking, fresh perspectives. And so he wanted to partner with us. So he linked us up with Evin, who's now the CEO of 72andSunny. I think it was like an hour meeting that turned into like four hours.
And now we're meeting with leadership over at New York office, and so 72andSunny took a liking to us. They helped us with our visual identity. They helped us, you know, with all these different sort of things that maybe we weren't really thinking about for ourselves.
We were thinking about doing the work for other brands. And so in July of 2019, July 17th, to be exact, they launched us into the media.
Joe Nickson: (23:25)
That's crazy. The irony of such, now think about this, and I've never told Vincent this, just the kudos to keeping me up to speed in these three years before I came home, while I was gone. So you have to think about it as we're trying to do this. I'm fully immersed in marketing and the culture. So I have all of this time.
And Vince is like, okay, Vincent is grabbing briefs from companies. And he's like sending four at a time and I'm just devouring. I'm like, I'm finding my skillset, now I'm finding my purpose. Now I'm like, "Okay, okay." Then I have Jonathan from MeUndies, he's sending me briefs. So I'm so immersed in this culture right now, getting ready, but without relating to what he was saying, I am released two days after we, or I, after we launched.
Vincent Bragg: (24:17)
No, two days before.
Joe Nickson: (24:18)
Before we launched. I do not get a proper time to become acclimated. I've been gone 17 and a half years. And soon as I get home, I'm in Diddy's office. I have a podcast, I'm in this Fast Company magazine. I'm like, "Oh my goodness. It's on. Get out of here."
Charles: (24:37)
And just to put context around that, 17 and a half years ago, the iPhone didn't exist.
Joe Nickson: (24:43)
Exactly. So put it this way. I had… the tools of communication were the Motorola two way page, that was the breaking line of Nextel phones. That was going on.
Charles: (24:59)
Yeah. So you're walking literally into a whole new world.
Joe Nickson: (25:03)
But with my imagination, like you would swear that I was never gone. They're like, "How do you know these things?" I just have to actually get them in my hand, I've read every Apple magazine. I've read every mag- I've devoured it. Just put it in my hand. I'm not that far lost, but just let me see it.
Charles: (25:23)
How different did this feel to you compared to what you were doing when you went into prison? I mean, you were running a business when you went into prison, right? You were running a multi-hundred million dollar business when you went into prison. How did this feel different to you?
Vincent Bragg: (25:36)
The risk wasn’t the same. There was no death involved. There's no prison involved. It's like the same thrill, right? It's the same thrill of, you know, coming up with a plan and an idea and executing it and getting away with it.
But the risk isn't the same, right? There's nothing more scarier than United States of America versus insert whoever's name, right? That's a scary position to be in.
And so, yeah, it doesn't feel different. It feels safe, right? It's safe. It's like, I can be comfortable and have peace of mind in what we're doing as a career path or as a business. And so, and then it's just fun.
Like, I have fun, you know, sitting with Joe and the team and cranking out ideas and we have our creative thunderdomes, like we like to call them. Where, you know, what we used to do in prison was people would bring ideas to the table and we would poke holes in it.
And we would do everything in our power to try to strengthen that idea. So, we kind of trained ourselves to do it naturally. For me it feels… it's a lot. I feel a lot when it comes to this business, you know. I feel like, you know, honored right to be a trailblazer from this kind of standpoint, you know. Happy to explain to folks that have been incarcerated or that just don't know that creativity is even a career path. You can literally make money with using your imagination. You know what I mean? There's honor in that.
Charles: (27:24)
And I don't want to over index on this, but I'm just curious to understand kind of the emotional dynamic. I mean, building a business is a thing, is a major achievement, right?
I mean, the fact you solved the problems you solved in the business that took you into prison is still… I mean, you still proved something to yourself that you have the ability to do that. Did you feel pride in that business in a different way? Were there things about that that made you go, "Hey look, what I can do,"? Or was it simply there just to solve a problem for you?
Joe Nickson: (27:54)
For me, it was different. And I’ll put it in the context like this for you. So, when I was robbing these banks, I set out to be colder than Dillinger. I wanted to be colder than Jesse James. I wanted to be the polite one, I wanted nobody… I took pride in doing it. I want to be the best like Tom Brady. I want to be the best like Jordan. As we come in this space, we want to do the same thing.
We want to be the Lee Clows. We want to be better than the Jimmy Smiths. We want to be, we're in here. This is what we're here for. So that sense of that different thing is like, "Yeah." When I see these old ads, these Nike, LeBron ads that my mentors did, I'm like, "Yeah, I see that. But I'm gonna kill that though. I see you."
Vincent Bragg: (28:41)
Right, right.
Joe Nickson: (28:42)
You know, you know, I see that. So that sense of it, that’s just amazing to me. That's what it is for me.
Vincent Bragg: (28:49)
Yeah. I think there is that friendly competition too, right? Where it's like, all right, you know, this is legendary, you know, this went down in history. But like, "Well, wait ‘til y'all see what we got in our vault." We have those moments where we like, "This one going to break the internet." Or, you know what I mean? Like whatever. So, again, like I said, it's fun. Like, this is a fun… it's a sport. Like, this is a sport just like any other sport. And you know, right now is to see who comes with the greatest ideas.
Joe Nickson: (29:25)
Vincent and I battle.
Vincent Bragg: (29:27)
Yeah.
Joe Nickson: (29:28)
We on it, like, I see like that, that was cool, but—
Vincent Bragg: (29:30)
Right.
Joe Nickson: (29:32)
I would've did it better though, but like, I feel that, I'm gonna encourage it, but...
Vincent Bragg: (29:36)
And then I like it too, because it's like he might come with an idea and then we might add what we call the sauce. You know what I'm saying? We might put the sauce on it. You know what I mean? And so it's become like friendly competition, even amongst our team is like, you know, just who's coming with the heat, you know? Who's coming with—
Joe Nickson: (29:59)
Same thing that like the culture, when it comes to hip hop, like, I feel you, me and NAS and Jay-Z, we super friend. But when I get on this mic I'm gonna cut y'all head off. We not in here to be friends. In here for me to be the best.
Vincent Bragg: (30:13)
Right.
Charles: (30:16)
So you guys have expanded this a lot since those early days, right? I mean, you have a lot of people working here. How many people are working for you now?
Vincent Bragg: (30:25)
I mean, our core team is probably about 17, but, you know, on the freelance side we looking close to about 800 folks that we can outsource or, you know, bring in to projects that we're working on.
Charles: (30:42)
Are all those people convicts and or former convicts?
Vincent Bragg: (30:46)
Absolutely.
Charles: (30:47)
All of them?
Vincent Bragg: (30:48)
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Charles: (30:48)
So is that, that's a prerequisite for joining the company.
Joe Nickson: (30:52)
It was, but as we're scaling, it's turning into something else, but yes. And, yeah, I mean you got some of the dopest agencies in the world, talent coming, like, "I'm messing with ConCreate." You got to consider it.
Vincent Bragg: (31:06)
Right.
Charles: (31:07)
So you're starting to open the doors a little bit to non-convicts?
Vincent Bragg: (31:11)
Yeah. Yeah. We don't discriminate. I think, you know, that is the core of our mission though. That's the core, that's our unique differentiating factor, right? As an agency, that's the thing that makes us stand out. Talent is talent.
Charles: (31:29)
And when you are looking for talent, as you said, you look beyond the immediate expression of that, and recognize the talent that lies beyond it, right? So you talked about looking at a tattoo artist and saying, “This is an art director,” for instance or an artist of some kind.
Vincent Bragg: (31:45)
So, we have a question. I mean, we have several questions. But one of the questions, when we start to think about how do we assess talent or where we put people is, if you have $5 million in all twenties, how do you get it from LA to New York? And this is… there's no right answer to it.
I think it helps us to kind of see, "Hey, is this person thinking strategically?" You know, are they thinking creatively, you know? And so based on some of those answers, you can kind of assess where someone is creatively, right? So, that's kind of one of the things we do. And I like to think about who can simplify, right?
Like the ones who simplify the pathway, right? Who can, you know… the least amount of steps, you know, how do you get directly from there to there, is also, you know, a skill set within itself.
Charles: (32:49)
One of the foundations of any creative business is the capacity to engender and maintain trust. It's foundational for every great creative business that I've ever come across. How do you look at the issue of trust? What is your expectation of the level of trust that you can build with a company that is founded on people who have been convicted of crimes?
Vincent Bragg: (33:11)
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Well, I think people, because it's prison, I think people have the preconceived notion that there is no honor amongst thieves, right? But the individuals that we surround ourselves with are very honorable, right? There is respect, you know, honor is important, to how you move in life, how you treat people, and you know, all of those sorts of things. Then granted like we're humans, so we all fall short of that.
But the ability to recognize that and work on it, you know, you sit down in prison, there's a lot of self-reflection going on, right? How do you become a better human? And we say this all the time, there's only really two types of people in prison. Those that want to become better criminals.
Because some folks are like, "All right, how do I not get caught? I'm still gonna do the same thing, but how do I not get caught doing it, right?” And then there's those other folks that actually want to become better humans. And having the opportunity and the tools to become better humans is what determines the success rate or the recidivism rate of folks going back.
Charles: (34:22)
And do those groups naturally divide in prison? Are you conscious of which group you're dealing with at any particular moment or what kind of person you're dealing with, as you're developing relationships in prison? Was it clear to each of you that you were people who wanted to figure out, how do I make more of my life rather than how do I become a better criminal?
Joe Nickson: (34:39)
Very much so. Those were the discussions in the think tank, where you feel that energy, you feel that like, they're the individuals who, who are sitting there, who are watching music videos and things of no substance and exercising and doing things that are not working, the biggest muscle.
And that's that mind muscle. So you feel then, and we're gonna have these things, you're gonna have the market like you mean it. But because I know your strength and I see this book and I think you'll like it. It's just, it's very organic. You feel it. And that's what has no color.
That's what has no color. That is what makes us humans. That is why the Rolodex is so big. Like some of my dear friends to this day have swastikas on them that I've met in prison. And I totally understand them as humans, because one thing about society is that you guys, we don't get to do out here, is that something that you don't like, you can easily discard it because you don't have to be around it.
Vincent Bragg: (35:42)
Right.
Joe Nickson: (35:43)
Well, sooner or later, this white supremacist is in your next door to your cell. You guys are gonna have some interactions and these interactions are gonna sooner or later become human and then they're gonna start discussing it. And then you're gonna discuss and then, you know what, you're gonna be like, "Damn, you're a person."
Vincent Bragg: (35:59)
Right.
Joe Nickson: (36:00)
No matter what your ideology are, you are a person. And who am I to say, it's right or wrong, especially the things that I've done before. But I understand that you are a person and those are those human moments in there.
Charles: (36:15)
So in that situation, your ability to recognize the person standing next to you, who has a swastika tattoo on their arm, and your ability to see beyond that and see them as human, your experience is also that they can see you differently, right?
They're looking beyond the color of your skin to see you as a human being. Are those relationships, in your experience, one to one, or can that relationship transcend beyond the intimate and become more general? Like, can you—
Joe Nickson: (36:43)
No, they expand. So one of our dear friends that I think he was a friend of Vince first and I'm talking about Bam.
Vincent Bragg: (36:53)
I know.
Joe Nickson: (36:54)
That expanded to everyone.
Vincent Bragg: (36:55)
Right.
Joe Nickson: (36:56)
Because that specific relationship started with him and Vince. And then you get group texts. Like he's like, he's on Facebook, man. Because somebody called him a racist and he calls us first. Like, "I'm not a fucking racist." I'm appalled, actually, that you said that.
Vincent Bragg: (37:14)
Right, right.
Yes. It's interesting because you have those sorts of folks. We used to, what was the one guy that used to run a ticket with the N tattoo on his head? I can't never think of his name.
Joe Nickson: (37:29)
I don't recall.
Vincent Bragg: (37:32)
Anyway. He always used to be like, "I don't have no problem with black. I never seen a black. I'm from Idaho. Like I never seen a black person."
You know what I mean? Like, “I don't have a problem with black people. I don't know any. No black person has ever done me wrong. No black person has ever treated me right. I don't know any,” you know what I'm saying? And so, you know, in prisons, it’s a microcosm of the world. Everyone is in there, from every religious background—
Joe Nickson: (38:04)
Every profession, judges, I mean this is the federal government here. This is your Congressman. This is everybody who was greedy. Your doctors, all of this stuff are in here, from graduate staff to Crenshaw High School. It's all in one melting pot.
Vincent Bragg: (38:20)
Yeah.
Charles: (38:22)
I mean, it sounds like you have come out of prison with a much expanded view of humanity than you went in with. Is that fair?
Vincent Bragg: (38:28)
Absolutely.
Joe Nickson: (38:29)
Absolutely. I always tell people one thing, that I've met more good people in prison than I've met bad people outside. And when you ponder and think about that, we often have times where the human aspect is lost out here. It's a sad day when you have more people that say, ‘excuse me’ and then ‘thank you’ and ‘how you're doing’ in prison than you do out here.
Vincent Bragg: (38:52)
Right.
Joe Nickson: (38:53)
Because everybody is so absorbed with themselves, and that human connection without those devices, when you are forced to be a human, it's totally different.
Charles: (39:04)
So one of the problems with the market communication industries that you guys are now such a powerful and important part of, is that the talent supply chain has been built to deliver predominantly white and predominantly male candidates.
And you are clearly blowing that up in an important way and a vital way, actually. What advice would you give companies who are still stuck in the traditional talent development, talent acquisition mindset? What advice would you give them that would help them to break free of those constraints and those sort of norms and practices?
Vincent Bragg: (39:39)
I think the answer is in the conversation we were just having, you know. It's like, you know, they look at paper like, "Who is this person on paper?" What art school you went to, like, you know, that sort of stuff. It's like getting indicted. Like, I'm listening to these people talk about me like I'm just a horrible person. I'm like, "Wait a minute, like does it really say that on paper? Like, when do I get to speak? When do I get to let somebody know, I'm just a person?" I might have did a bad thing, that doesn't make me a bad person.
And so, you know, my advice will always be to look past the paper. There could be a huge reason why you see a gap in someone's work history, for instance, right? If you're looking at someone's resume, what could be that gap, right? Did you… somebody could have been sick in your family that you had to take care of.
There's honor in that, that doesn't make you less capable. That was a decision and a choice that had to be made, you know? So sometimes you just got to look past what stuff says on paper, because that doesn't necessarily define who someone is.
Charles: (40:47)
Joe, what about you?
Joe Nickson: (40:50)
Well, a quick answer would be binge-watch Mad Men and then just look at the success of ConCreates right now and watch what's going on. It is this space that's going on that is so exceptional right now. To be able to shake, just please get out of your own way. And I'm specifically talking to a former client, because you almost missed history. Get out of your own way. We have a pulse on the culture.
You guys, such so long, the industry has been waiting to ride waves, because the data shows it. But the industry forgot one thing, that wave started from somewhere. So let's get used to providing the waves instead of riding them. Let's make these waves, let's test it before it's hot, but we have to be on that pulse to let it know, "Oh yeah. It's bubbling. It's bubbling." And I think that's where we're experts at.
Charles: (41:50)
Vincent, how do you lead?
Vincent Bragg: (41:55)
Democratically, right? Sometimes there are decisions that need to be made. And so I will ask the network, like even when it comes to taking on certain clients, right? Like we've definitely turned down way more money than we've made, you know, at this point.
And you know, there are brands that we just wouldn't work with, you know what I mean? And so those kind of questions always have to be brought to the collective, rather than, you know, just me kind of saying, "This is what we're doing."
Charles: (42:26)
Joe, what about you? How do you lead?
Joe Nickson: (42:29)
Due to my executive coaching, I attempt to do it democratically. "Let's vote on this." And, in certain instances, when it deals with integrity and morals, there's times when I'm not gonna bend, know what I'm saying? That's when you're in the business and our guidelines. Like, I'm not gonna allow you guys to bend to do a project with that. If that makes sense. And, yes, that's how I choose to lead.
Charles: (42:58)
And what are you afraid of?
Joe Nickson: (43:00)
Afraid of not being afraid, if that makes any sense. So, the things that I've done in my life, you can imagine, like, the fear factor is very, very high. So, I got to the point where, like, not being afraid and like, a story. When I came home, quickly, Vincent and I, we were out. And there's a big scuffle. People started to run. It's a music festival. And people are starting to run. And I stopped and I'm, like, trying to go straight to whatever's going on. And, Vince is, like, "Bro, like, what are you doing?"
I'm like, "We have to find the problem. We have to stop it." "This is the wrong thing. We're gonna get trampled if we do it this way." So, just afraid of not being afraid.
Charles: (43:47)
Vincent, what about you?
Vincent Bragg: (43:53)
I guess if I looked at it, like, the pandemic, right? When the pandemic first started, it kind of killed us, right? There's was, you know, everybody was shifting the way that they wanted to do communications. We weren't on the top of everybody's list to work with, right? So, I felt like the representation, I'm afraid that this representation goes away. I think that's my biggest fear in the beginning stages of this upward growth of ours.
It’s, like, this representation matters. If we go away then there's no other representation of formerly incarcerated folks, or just this level of perspective. So, that would be my fear, that the industry doesn't help to foster this type of perspective.
Charles: (44:52)
I want to thank you both so much for coming on the show today. It is such an incredible story and it's obviously a story of creativity and innovation and ingenuity and resilience. But I think, above all else, it is a story that so powerfully demonstrates the possibility that exists, I think, within all of us. But you guys are such incredible living examples of what is possible, even under the most challenging of circumstances. And I just thank you very much for coming on and sharing both of your stories today, and I wish you nothing but luck going forward.
Vincent Bragg: (45:25)
Oh, thank you so much for having us.
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