Raja Rajamannar of Mastercard
How do you want to spend your time on the planet?
"FEARLESS CREATIVE LEADERSHIP" PODCAST - TRANSCRIPT
Episode 182: Raja Rajamannar
Hi. I’m Charles Day. I work with creative and innovative companies. I coach their leaders to help them maximize their impact and grow their business. To help them succeed where leadership lives - at the intersection of strategy and humanity.
This week’s guest is Raja Rajamannar. He’s the Chief Marketing & Communications Officer for Mastercard and is also President of the company’s healthcare business.
His list of accomplishments is long and significant. He was recognized as the Global Marketer of the Year by the World Federation of Advertisers, was named one of the Top 5 “World’s Most Influential CMOs” by Forbes, and one of the Top 10 “World’s Most Innovative CMOs” by Business Insider. He has been inducted into The CMO Club Hall of Fame. He has also been recognized as one of AdWeek’s most tech-savvy CMOs.
So what matters to him today?
“And you're here for a short time and how do you want to spend your time? What do you want to spend your time on? Because you only have one life to live, how do you live it well? And I think that's something which is profoundly spreading across the world.”
How do you live your life well?
That question is at the very heart of the upheaval of the employer - employee relationship. Whether we come to call it ‘The Great Resignation’ or ‘The Great Self-Reflection’ or anything else.
For the first time in the history of our society, the people who do the bulk of the work are discovering they don’t have to do it on someone else’s terms. They can decide what a ‘life well lived’ looks like on their terms.
They’re discovering that they have agency in their own lives.
The pressure this puts on leaders is almost more than we can understand. It changes everything.
And if you thought ‘it’s lonely at the top’ was true before, it’s going to become an even more meaningful cliché as we stumble into 2022.
Leaders are going to have to adapt and evolve to these dramatic societal shifts. Leadership is going to have to change at its very heart and soul.
But as you personally confront these challenges, my hope is that you will place at the center of your thinking that very same question. How do you live your life well?
Empathy, vulnerability, care and compassion are going to have to be building blocks on which your leadership is built. I don’t see a way in which you can succeed from now on without those as the foundations from which you lead.
But you can’t fake these qualities. They’re not sustainable unless they reflect the life that you want to lead.
What do you want to do with your life? What do you want to spend your time on while you are alive?
These are questions that scare us. Questions that can feel judgmental or too filled with consequence if we really confront them.
But when we are willing to confront them, the answers unleash such reservoirs of possibility, that soon we cannot imagine why we lived for so long without the clarity and the confidence they provide.
And they come with the added benefit that they will make you a world-class leader for as long as you choose to lead.
Here’s Raja Rajamannar.
Charles: (03:18)
Raja, welcome to Fearless. Thank you so much for coming on the show.
Raja Rajamannar: (03:22)
Thank you for having me on the show, Charles, much appreciated.
Charles: (03:26)
When did creativity first show up in your life?
Raja Rajamannar: (03:29)
So I think I have been a creative, I had at least crazy ideas... I don't know if you can call it creativity or not, but right since my childhood. So I used to rip apart a radio and try to make a car out of it. And of course it never worked but, you know, my mom and dad used to get frustrated. I would take things apart, try to mix them and then pretend that it's going to be a rocket, a whatever else it is. That was, you know, right from my childhood. I used to modify my own games and when I learned chess I said, "Why don't I invent a different kind of a chess?" And I would force it upon my siblings and my parents who had to suffer through all the creativity, so to speak.
But, real sense, I think, you know, it probably was a realization for me that creativity is an area that I can play well, probably during my MBA.
So I was doing my internship between the first and second years of MBA. And my internship was with a cosmetics company in India called Lakmé. And it was a large, very professionally run company. And my project was around logistics, which is as analytical and quantitative as you can think. And as I was sitting in my cubicle and my supervisor was in the next cubicle. And he was having a conversation with the advertising agency people there. And I said, "Why are these people struggling so much?" And, they were trying to create an ad to promote color cosmetics in India. And during those days, India was fairly conservative. And the popular perception was, that if you are a woman from a respectable background, you don't use color cosmetics. Because if you're using color cosmetics, you are attracting attention to yourself. And a good person of a good reputation or a good character would not do that.
So that was the kind of prevailing perception then. So I said, it's so silly. Because, you know, I know my sisters they used to use color cosmetics and they were of the highest character. And, you know, so it's not like you're being bad or anything of that sort. So I just quickly started writing on a small piece of paper an advertisement. And the heading was, "Is it bad to look good?" And I just walked it across to the room and said, "Hey, guys, what do you think about it? And why are you guys struggling about it?"
And that person was very, very impressed. And subsequently they went on to create a campaign of it and so on and so forth. And that's when I realized, maybe there is a way I can bring my creativity into my profession. And I thought that marketing was the area which would give that kind of an opportunity. So from then on, I started taking lot of marketing courses as electives in my MBA. And here it is, 36 years after I graduated from my MBA, I'm still in marketing and I love every bit of it.
Charles: (06:18)
Where do you think that you got the confidence to insert yourself into a process like that?
Raja Rajamannar: (06:23)
See, I think I always was a little bit of a crazy creative person, trying to think a different way of doing it. Just for the heck of it. There was no motivation or anything of that sort. I always like to look at things a little differently and try to come up with something. And the more tangible, the better it is. But I was also very abstract. I used to write some silly poetry. I used to edit my college magazine. I wrote a few plays while I was in college. And, again, extremely silly. No substance. But still, it used to be.… It used to give me a lot of joy. And I was a radio…. I think you call it a RJ these days but those days we used to call it 'radio anchor' for the youth program and I used to concoct all kinds of things.
So I always used to love things which are a little out of the ordinary. A little lateral, out of the box. And I used to revel in that. So it was not really out of confidence, but it was more in terms of enthusiasm. And I naturally gravitate to something which is more innovative. So you call it ‘the new shiny penny.’ Or you call it something like ‘the old shiny penny but give it a new shine.’ So I love doing those kind of things.
Charles: (07:33)
And coming from this expressive, creative background and disposition, when did leadership first show up as something that was important to you?
Raja Rajamannar: (07:42)
See, I think probably when I joined a company.… my first company was called Asian Paints in India. And it was largest paint manufacturing company then. It was a market leader. But guess what? They never had a marketing department to begin with. And I was hired as a founder flunky to start a, what you call, marketing department. It was called Product Management Group, PMG. And we were three people team and I was the junior most, I was reporting to two bosses. And, what I realized at that time very early on is that you know, firstly, you had to evangelize your ideas and concepts. And let the people know in the system that your ideas are worth investing in. So you're in kind of a quasi sales mode, promotional mode, on one hand.
The second part of it is, even if you get approval, you will need emotional buy-in of people. So just getting a budget to the project doesn't ensure the success of the project. You need to get people buy-in to do it. And then rally behind that. That's when it becomes a success. And leadership is not necessarily about bossing over a team of people, but actually carrying the organization through with you, irrespective of your level. And as I said, I was the junior most guy in the company, having just entered it.
But how do you carry people? How do you rally support behind your ideas and so on.… And so I think that's when I realized it's actually the emotional acceptance and the buy-in that matters a lot more than anything else in organizations. And organization, it's all about hierarchy. And I used to reach out to folks from research and development and from technology who were as far away in those days…. Because there was all the manufacturing side of paints. I was on the marketing side of paints. And we're pretty far apart. But then I would really go across and spend time with those folks and get them excited. Make them a part of my marketing campaign. And I actually made some of them do modeling for my ads. And they would feel invested in it. And when that happens, you get so much organizational support and, I think ideas will start really blooming quite beautifully.
Otherwise, they're quick to get organizational rejection and organ rejection, I would say. So from that perspective, I think early on I realized that there is a need. It's not just great to have a great idea, it's not sufficient. You need to be able to get that idea bought-in to by the rest of organization. And they have to put their mind behind it and bring it to life in the marketplace. That's when success happens. To me, that is leadership. Nothing about hierarchy and how many people you are managing. How you inspire and motivate your team. All that is a part of it but not in and of itself.
Charles: (10:26)
What do you think is the biggest myth about leadership?
Raja Rajamannar: (10:31)
I would say the biggest one is, if I can tell two. The biggest two will be: number one, empathy. And number two, inspiration. So most of the times, if you look at leadership in many companies, is somehow associated with hierarchy. That you're leading teams. You're leading your function. You're leading your department. The hierarchy part is more administrative, it is not leadership. Real leadership is when you're empathizing with people. Understanding what drives them. And connect with them. Get their buy-in and move forward. That is the biggest thing which is missing.
Most of the times, for example, if you look at the situation of the pandemic. Now in pandemic, people would say, "Okay. You stay at home. You work at home." Or whatever it is there. And every company will do it. Now, how can you go that extra mile, is by understanding the real situation and the feelings and anxieties of people. And doing something about it.
I'll just give you an example. At Mastercard, one of the first things that we discovered is that people are feeling very insecure about their jobs. So it's not a huge insight. It's very obvious if you only are a little sensitive. People are losing jobs because companies are losing revenues, businesses are shut down. So it's natural that people worry as to when their turn might come, when they're going to be let go. Or furloughed. Or whatever.
So one of the first things that we did was to go to our teams, the entire organization, not just Marketing and Communication but the whole organization and tell them, "You know what? We understand your fear. We understand your anxiety. But don't worry, as a company, we are healthy enough that we don't have to let anyone go." So for the entire year 2020, we said nobody will be let go based on this COVID issue. And you can just take that worry off your shoulders and off your mind.
It's a huge amount of reassurance for people, on the one hand. That matters. Now, without taking care of the basics, you cannot give some fluffy philosophy. "So we should all be around for the company. We're all doing this…." That kind of a thing just doesn't work unless you address the real, fundamental issues on the one hand.
And on the other hand, small things, like, people are having small children, babies. In the past they used to have babysitters or they would drop their kids, at a nursery or the school or whatever. Now they're all hanging at home. How do you take care of them? So we said, for example, “You would not have meetings at the breakfast time, say 8:00 to 9:00 or 9:00 to 10:00, whatever it is. Or during lunch time. Or no scheduled meetings after 5 o'clock.” You're understanding what they're going through and try to support them in that fashion. And, starting with me and my whole leadership team, we all said, "We should be available to our people any time day or night."
So actually I was going on webcast saying that, you know, "I know what you all going through. If you feel worried, scared or anxious in the middle of the night at 3 o'clock, don't worry just give me a call. Or give your supervisor a call. We are there for you. We're all in it together. We will get through it together." The amount of difference it makes to people that they are truly being cared, valued, it's huge. And that, to me, is empathy. The second part of it is inspiration. Not asking people to do a better job of what they're doing is one thing. But are you really inspiring them to do something bigger and greater? Both from a company perspective, thinking big. Having a big vision. Bringing it to life.
And the second part of it is, how can the company be really doing something to the society, to the community, to the planet, to the animals, to whatever is the cause? And, that, I think, is a very large missing piece. Purpose-driven-ness is essentially become politically correct statement that people have to make. But in reality, that's so meaningful if we embrace it properly and really, it can be so inspirational. So I think these are the two which are probably missing to a large extent in many companies.
Charles: (14:40)
Your example of the need for leaders to become more empathetic, and the way that you guys responded to the pandemic, are really strong examples of how the last two years have changed leadership, to some extent. I was talking to Faith Popcorn the other day, the futurist.
Raja Rajamannar: (14:54)
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Charles: (14:54)
And I said to her, "How do you think leadership needs to change?" And she said, "I think leaders are going to actually have to start caring about the people that work for them. Really caring, in a different way." How have you seen leadership change a result of the last couple of years?
Raja Rajamannar: (15:09)
I would say, it's probably at three or four different levels. At the human level, I think people are realizing what is important to their people. It's not just for yourself as a leader, but for your team, what is important. So for example, companies who have had very rigid policies that you shall work in this city, from this place. You shall be sitting in the office for five days a week. I think there's a profound transformation that's happening, probably out of necessity, otherwise you lose your good people. Companies are realizing the need for flexibility. But that flexibility, in that hybrid kind of a situation, brings unique challenges of how do you develop the right kind of culture and nurture. What is organizational culture anyway? And if people are all dispersed and they're all interacting, not informally but scheduled Zoom calls and things like that, how do you nurture that culture? This is one big change that is happening that the transition of that, number one.
Number two, people are also realizing, from a business opportunity, is how to completely rethink the models in their head. So, for example, everything is going remote in an irreversible fashion. So it's remote learning for your kids, for your employees, for your clients. It's all remote, remote, remote. Not just students. But I'm talking about remote everything. Your sales calls are becoming remote. Your conferences are becoming remote. Trade shows are becoming remote. Your purchases are becoming remote. E-commerce was always there, but in the last 20 months, so much incremental penetration has happened of e-commerce that it will have taken normally seven to eight years—
Charles: (16:49)
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Raja Rajamannar: (16:49)
—accelerated, in just that short period of time. It's that kind of a thing. So remote working. Remote learning. Remote commerce. Everything is going remote. Companies are now starting to rethink as, how do you reinvent yourself? So that reinvention is becoming the focus for the leadership. So that's number two.
The third one I would say is compensation. And benefits and everything else. Because what's happening is everyone is talking about this 'Great Resignation'. I have seen reports based on some surveys, so you can take it with a pinch of salt but there's directionally something in it. 40% turnover is expected in the next 12 months, in the field of marketing, for example. 40%. Like now, if every second person on your team is going to change, is the kind of you have to take it literally. So how do you retain your people? How do you attract? If there is fantastic talent out there who are looking for a change, how do you go grab them into your organization with the right kind of structure and everything else? And how do you train your people? Because, you know, for example, remote is one example I mentioned of how the world is changing.
But is your team geared up for that remote kind of marketing? Or marketing in that remote environment. So you need to train and retrain people with new technologies like artificial intelligence, augmented reality, 3D printing, 5G communications. All these are coming. Are the people on the teams actually geared up for managing those and learning? So you need to have learning. So people are really thinking about the talent strategies completely differently than what it was just two years back. And I think this is all some are very positive things.
And the last I would say is in terms of the need for public-private partnerships is being recognized by the leaders quite a lot. So leadership is not just providing leadership to your organization. But leadership to your community. Leadership in terms of your peer group, gathering together, and galvanizing together and doing something about it. Like for example, if you look at the most recent COP26 in Glasgow. I think the corporations were taking a lot bigger lead than they ever have been. The point is there is a profound transformation that's happening. Interestingly they also said there's going to be a huge turnover amongst the CEOs, as well. So it's across the entire spectrum, up and down the chain of command as far as the organization is concerned.
I would sum off those are that. And the underlying thing for me, for all these changes is, people are getting a little recentered. They're putting things in the right perspective in a COVID…. Like in my own case, I can tell you, not my immediate family members or first cousins, but my second cousins and my uncles and aunts, we lost nine of them in India during COVID. So when that happens, it feels real, not just from statistic, because I knew this uncle. I knew how he was and he was too young to go. And he went, disappeared.... And there were no oxygen, no power, all these problems. And that starts making you question, saying, that “How much is the right things in life?" And you're here for a short time and how do you want to spend your time? What do you want to spend your time on? Because you only have one life to live, how do you live it well?
And I think that's something which is profoundly spreading across the world. That's the reason why people are saying, "I'll rather sit in Florida and work from there and enjoy my time, than the drudgery of daily commute in New York or wherever else is there." And I can't find fault with that. And so we need to rethink the systems. And these are some of the perform changes that I'm seeing happen across the industries.
Charles: (20:28)
First, I should say I'm sorry for the loss that you and your family have experienced. That's tragic. And obviously it reflects in a lot of people's lives but, but I want to acknowledge that that's not....
Raja Rajamannar: (20:37)
Thank you.
Charles: (20:37)
That's a significant event. Significant events, obviously. I'm really interested by this focus because, as I talk to different leaders around the world, and we start to think about what has changed as a result of the last two years there is a complete transformation happening in the employer-employee relationship. And so the command and control structure doesn't work anymore. The expectations we used to have for the way that employees would react to the organization, to the leader, all of that has changed. The relationship is shifting, if it hasn't already shifted.
In all of that, the pressure on leaders to change is enormous. The pressure on leaders to come up with new ways of leading, is enormous.
Raja Rajamannar: (21:15)
Absolutely.
Charles: (21:15)
There are no rule books for this, right? We've never had to lead like this before. There's never been anyone who's tried this before. The responsibility and the pressure on leaders to adapt and evolve in real time, dramatically is huge. And the need for them to show up in a much more three-dimensional, human, vulnerable way is also huge. Who takes care of the leader in that situation? Who's worrying about the mindset, the emotional health, the physical wellbeing of the leader? If the leader's pouring all this energy into the organization, into the people that work for them, who's worrying about the leader?
Raja Rajamannar: (21:56)
I think that's such a brilliant point that you make. And it brings to memory one of the sayings of an ancient guru from India. Probably 4, 500 years back. So he would say that the human being's body is like a temple. And what do you want to do, it all resides in you as intentions that you make them happen. But if your temple and mind, body, and spirit is not really good, you will not be able to do anything. Even with the best of intentions, they will never become a reality. So they say, you should take care of yourself first so that you're able to be in service of others. But as a leader, if you're supposed to inspire your team, motivate them, lead them, etc., etc., what about you? How are you inspiring yourself? Who is inspiring you? Motivating you? Etc.?
So I actually have half written a paper on this. And that's why I'm able to tell you five and six points right away. Because I have been giving some thought on this very specific topic.
So the first thing is, it starts about your individual self grounding. Grounding yourself appropriately. And this happens multiple ways. Number one, I find meditation is a huge thing. I try to meditate every single day unless I'm in some transit somewhere. But every single day, I meditate at least half an hour to one hour, which makes a huge difference.
Number two, you eat sensibly. Number three, you get good rest. Sleep is really undervalued. You have to get your sleep. A lot of healing happens in the body and in the mind, and the organization of the mind and the brain all happens during sleep. Get a good sleep. So the physical aspects and the meditation is number one.
Number two, I believe that everyone, particularly the senior most levels, should have a safe environment in which they're able to express themselves outwardly and seek advice, again, without any hesitation. So the way, for example, I do this is, I have got a personal board of directors. Now, these are.... I call them 'personal board of directors'…. I don't take it in literally but these are a group of mentors in different fields. And I religiously call them. Even if I don't have any topic to discuss specifically that I'm seeking advice on, just speaking with them and having that sense that you have got a group of people who I look up to, who I admire, that these people are there to support me, gives me a mountain of strength. That's huge. Number two.
Number three, what you always find is, learning is something which has got lot of unusual benefits. Not only just giving you confidence, the subject matter, that you can actually bring to life or the ability to educate or teach or articulate appropriately to other people, etc. And learning is something which also you can see what other people are going through. Whether it is simple things like, you know, you have got MasterClasses. Or you've got Coursera programs. Or for example, Stanford has got an innovation program for two weeks. Or whatever would be the colleges and universities. I find them, they're profoundly impactful in a positive way. And I make it a point to invest in learning all the time. Leaders have to do it. Many of the times, because the leaders are not investing time for learning, they're always, to some extent, either superficial in some areas and they have to fake it.
When you are faking it, you know you're faking. And that doesn't inspire you with confidence. It doesn't excite you. It doesn't motivate you. There's a shallowness in that. So you should not have that. You don't feel wholesome. So you need to learn the appropriate stuff. And learning is fun. And it takes your mind away from other problems.
So these are some of the things which I think leaders should do. And I would strongly say, if you had your own board of directors or not, at least have one or two mentors who really have your good interest, your best interest at heart. And you can absolutely be free, frank, and open with them. Tell them your situation that they guide you. And I started doing this kind of a thing almost for about, I would say, 12 years now. And I found it so profoundly useful. So I would strongly advocate that.
Charles: (26:23)
It's a great construct, actually. And it really does bring home the need to prioritize your own wellbeing. Because there's only so much fuel that anybody has to go around. And I think it's been really draining for leaders over the last 20 months to keep coming up with having to solve new problems.
One of the reference points that I've started hearing a lot about is the need for agile leadership. What does agile leadership mean to you?
Raja Rajamannar: (26:46)
See firstly, we are at this point in time going through an unprecedented level of disruption at every single level. Literally there are two dozen new technologies which are coming at us. Each one of them, independently capable of disrupting people's lives, big time, and therefore of organizations in a big time. Number one.
Number two, there are significant cultural shifts which are happening. Whether that is around inclusivity or inclusion, or whether diversity inclusion, equal- all…. That's one part of it. Then you also have got cultural shifts in terms of nationalism that's really rising in many countries. And they getting a little bit of a protectionist. "My country should have my people vaccinated first. And I don't care what happens to some other country which is less fortunate to not have the resources," and so on. So there is that kind of a thing.
There are significant shifts happening in terms of consciousness and awareness about climate and privacy. There are so many important social themes that are emerging. As an organization, and more importantly as a leader, you should stay on top of this. You should know what is happening in your environment. It's like, the old days of where you are keeping yourself abreast of the news, it gets exponentially increased when you're trying to keep yourself abreast of the emerging trends and the future trends. Those are shifting sands and these shifting sands require your constant attention and understanding and absorption. And in that context you need to rethink or evolve or refine your strategies.
Okay. Suddenly, for example, if climate becomes very critical and everyone's talking about climate, do I just sit back and do nothing? Or do you have to participate in it just because it's a politically correct thing to do? Or is there something else I should do where I actually connect my core business to that particular purpose and make it good, not only for the community and for the planet, but also good for my business? This is something that they have to keep thinking about and evolving the strategy. Though once you have the strategy, then you have to talk about evangelizing the strategy, get the emotional buy-in for the company. Then you're inspiring people to take action. You're balancing your budgets and your investments. You are talking to partners, because nothing can be accomplished these days, within the companies, by themselves. You require an extraordinary level of partnerships. So there's public-private or private-private, what will be the kind of partnerships. There are tons and tons of them.
Like if you look in the area of innovation, there are zillions of tiny companies which are coming out of Silicon Valley, out of Israel, out of Poland, Ireland, India, wherever it is. These folks have brilliant ideas. They don't have the wherewithal to make it a success. So if you're a larger company, relatively speaking, partnering with those people, giving them the opportunity, but also getting the advantage of early entry into the market with those breakthrough concepts, could be a huge leg up. Now all these, as a leader, you have to stay abreast of. That to me is agility.
Charles: (29:53)
As you look ahead to 2022, What do you want people to say about how you lead them at the end of next year?
Raja Rajamannar: (30:01)
I would aspire and strive to live up to my own expectations. And that would be first and foremost, to lead with heart. Lead from the front. Lead with camaraderie and friendship, as opposed to authority and influence, so to speak. And lead with the North Star firmly in sight, and persistent, because we're going to have tremendous amount of challenges that we will have as we're going forward. And I think unless you keep a steady eye on the North Star, it's easy to get distracted and lose your way.
And if I had to look back at the end of 2022 and look back and say, "What have I really done, good for the company? Good for the people? And good for the world?" Like for example, this year, that's an exercise which I go through with one of my mentors, "How did you spend your year 2021?" I feel very good about a couple of things like most recent one is we launched a card for the blind people. It's called 'touch card'. Very simple solution but incredibly helpful to a person who is sight impaired to be able to make their payments through that simple card. And we were actually worked with the Royal Institute for the Blind in the United Kingdom in co-creating that card and then bringing it to the concept where it becomes commercially viable.
So I would like to always see when I'm looking back, that this year has been well spent. And that the challenges have been recognized in time and either overcome or well dealt with. And that people felt good under my leadership. and with my partnership. And as I said, at the end of the day, I'm accountable and answerable to myself. And that is where having done anything good and having been a good human being first and foremost.
Charles: (31:51)
What's your relationship with fear?
Raja Rajamannar: (31:56)
My relationship with fear. I think I'm normally not fearful. But I have a healthy respect for fear. Because fear has got, so long as it is not paralyzing, it has got a purpose it can deliver. It will keep you probably on your feet, more agile. It'll keep you more sharp. So you want to watch out. So if I had to re-articulate it, I would say that being watchful of fear will make me a better person or a better professional. And when confronted with fear, it's important to not lose your grounding and centeredness, and not get paralyzed, and to go through it with a tenacity.
Charles: (32:47)
And last question for you: As you look forward at 2022, what are you afraid of?
Raja Rajamannar: (32:52)
How am I going to keep my talent? Am I going to lose my best talent? That would be disastrous. Am I going to be able to sustain? Why is it that we are doing very well? And as a company and as a brand, it's not because of great strategies by themselves, it's because of great people. And what I'm most scared about is, will I retain my people? And, because as I said, ‘The Great Resignation.’ I may not be able for a fraction of the compensation some of the companies might throw at them. And, losing them would not be great at all. So that's something which keeps me awake at night.
Charles: (33:32)
Raja, I want to thank you for joining me today. I've always admired your clarity of thought and your warmth and humanity. And I very much appreciate you sharing with us today.
Raja Rajamannar: (33:41)
Thank you, Charles. And, hopefully your audience will find some points that resonate with them. But more importantly, I hope you and all your audience, everyone, stays safe.
—————
Let us know if there are other guests you’d like to hear from, and areas you’d like to know more about or questions you have.
And don’t forget to share Fearless with your friends and colleagues.
If you’d like more, go to fearlesscreativeleadership.com where you’ll find the audio and the transcripts of every episode.
If you’d like to know more about our leadership practice, go to thelookinglass.com.
Fearless is produced by Podfly. Frances Harlow is the show’s Executive Producer. Josh Suhy is our Producer and editor. Sarah Pardoe is the Media Director for Fearless.
Thanks for listening.
