Emma Armstrong, Gabriel Schmitt, Michael Aimette & Todd Sussman of FCB New York
What makes a leadership team work.
"FEARLESS CREATIVE LEADERSHIP" PODCAST - TRANSCRIPT
Episode 175: FCB New York
Hi. I’m Charles Day. I work with creative and innovative companies. I coach and advise their leaders to help them maximize their impact and grow their business. To help them succeed where leadership lives - at the intersection of strategy and humanity.
This week’s guests are the leadership team of FCB New York. Their President, Emma Armstrong; their co-Creative Officer’s Gabriel Schmitt and Michael Aimette and their Chief Strategy Officer, Todd Sussman.
This summer, Cannes Lions named FCB The Network of the Year. The agency’s journey over the last eight years has seen it transformed from a company that most people didn’t care about, to one that now stands as a reference point for how to unlock creative thinking on a global scale.
FCB is a case study for how to grow a business by first defining and then living through a strategy.
But, when I meet the company’s leaders - whether at the global level or those responsible for running offices - I’m always struck by the human connection between them.
“I think we all have an innate curiosity. It shows up in different ways. We all have an innate curiosity about the world around us, about creativity, about the power of creativity and also about where the world is going next, whether it's from a marketing standpoint or probably more interestingly from a global standpoint.”
According to a recent McKinsey report, 15 million US workers - and counting - have left their jobs since April of this year. “The Great Resignation” as it’s now being called has become one of the most disruptive forces in business since the 2008 financial crash, with potentially deeper and longer lasting consequences.
People no longer want to work at jobs they’re not interested by. Which seems like an obvious statement except that for decades, and maybe forever, that hasn’t been the case.
In fact the company-employee contract has long been built around the understanding that many aspects of many jobs would be intellectually and emotionally unsatisfying but would come with the promise of something better in the future.
That equation doesn’t work anymore.
As a leader, how you rewrite that equation depends on how you see the world yourself.
Are you, as Emma describes, curious about the power of creativity and where the world is going next? And are you taking people on that journey of discovery and possibility?
Or are you working to meet the expectations of someone’s else’s over-promise? And then you have to ask yourself, is that really leading at all?
Curiouser and curiouser.
Here are Emma, Gabriel, Michael and Todd.
Charles: (02:41)
Emma, Michael, Todd, Gabriel, welcome to Fearless. Thank you all for coming on the show. Emma, let's start with you. When did creativity first show up in your life? When are you first conscious of creativity as a thing in your life?
Emma Armstrong: (02:54)
I think probably when I started reading. So my mom taught me to read very early. I thought it was through a love, a maternal love and a shared interest. And I discovered a little later in life that I was apparently an incredibly annoying child and she had my second sister, and I just used to follow her around saying, "Why? Why? Why?" all the time. So she decided to teach me to read so that I would go and be quiet somewhere. But I think as soon as I understood that people wrote books, I understood about creativity and I was fascinated from that point on.
Charles: (03:26)
How did you express yourself growing up?
Emma Armstrong: (03:29)
I come from a very creative family. So my grandmother was a dressmaker, my mom is a good seamstress. And there were always paints or pencils, or a material, or something to create, everywhere in the house. So it was highly encouraged, but I have three sisters. So for me and my sisters, if you were bored, go make something, or go read something, or go write something.
Charles: (03:53)
And did you do that together with your sisters?
Emma Armstrong: (03:56)
Sometimes to my sister, but yes.
Charles: (04:01)
Gabriel, what about you? When did creativity first show up in your life?
Gabriel Schmitt: (04:05)
I wish I had a good answer like Emma's. But actually it was later in my life, because the first thing that I cared about, and for a long time, was football. I don't want to be that cliché, but here we are. And not to bring this to advertising already, but I do remember when two things clicked, meaning creativity— Or the three things clicked. Meaning advertising, creativity and then football when I saw this Umbro print ad where it had a cutout of a soccer cleat made out of grass. And I remember I saw that, I was maybe, I don't know, nine or ten? And I saw that and I was like, "Whoa, what is this?"
Charles: (04:47)
And how did you express yourself growing up other than on the soccer pitch?
Gabriel Schmitt: (04:51)
In a very anxious way. I always liked to write and I was always interested in the meaning of words and why that word was better than the other word to express. But that doesn't mean I was saying those things or anything like that. I was just thinking about those things.
Charles: (05:11)
And Todd, what about you? When did creativity first show up for you?
Todd Sussman: (05:16)
I don't remember, like, exactly what came first, but I do remember - and you guys aren't going to believe me with this story. But I do remember as a kid, I probably was like six or seven. We used to take these road trips up to Vermont every Thanksgiving. And I have this very clear memory. I was sitting in the back and I was playing with this Donkey Kong video game that I had. It was like this little portable thing.
Emma Armstrong: (05:39)
I had those. They’re the best.
Todd Sussman: (05:41)
Yeah, it was amazing. And so I remember sitting there playing with it and I just had this moment and I said out loud too, and I sort of had this conversation with my parents in the front seat. I was like, "You know, one day there's going to be a way for me to just have books in this kind of thing. And I'm just going to be able to read books and just download them."
And I just started to go off on this vision I had in my head of... I can imagine going to a kiosk and getting a book, and — I don't know I had this thing. And I remember my parents being like, "That's a really good idea." And they started to riff on it as well. And my dad was an electrical engineer, my mom was a teacher.
And it was the first time that I was like, "Oh, I just had an idea. That's cool." And people are excited about that, and I can start to talk about that. And it's mine. And I can own that thought, and I can build on it. And it was really sort of, it was a powerful moment. I still remember. I remember like the whole ride up and everything I thought of. So yeah, I think it was probably around that.
Charles: (06:40)
That must have given you a lot of confidence, that sort of sudden realization that you could have ideas that were your own, that would actually affect people that were older than you.
Todd Sussman: (06:48)
Exactly, like the fact that, here was I like, a six year old, and I was like, I have a thought. I have an idea. And that adults were like, "That's cool, let's talk about that." And all of a sudden I was having a conversation that I sort of owned and I remember feeling that kind of empowerment of like, "Yeah, I can hold my own in this conversation with adults." Even though they were my parents, they were still talking to me as if I was almost like a peer. They're like, "Well, tell us more. Like, what would it do? How would it work?" You know, and that kind of thing. It's cool.
Charles: (07:16)
And Michael, what about you? When did creativity first show up for you?
Michael Aimette: (07:20)
I feel like since I'm going last, I should have the best answer, but I don't. Creativity first showed up for me, I remember it really well. I don't know if you guys remember this, but you remember the show Batman with Adam West, it was like this really kitschy 60s show. And they used to show re-runs of that through the 70s when I was growing up.
And I used to watch that show religiously and I got to notice the pattern of how that show worked. It was always two episodes and there was always a cliffhanger at the very end. And I used to cry and I would get so upset. I'm like, "Oh my God, Batman. He's like, dead." And I have to wait 'til tomorrow to find out if he died or not. Then I started to realize that, well, Batman he's not going to die. it's going to work out for him.
And I started realizing like, what it was, what storytelling was like, how to keep people interested and things like that. I mean I wasn't able to put it in those terms, of course, but it was really intriguing to me how to tell stories and how to dig in to stories or how to make people feel about certain things. And my expression of that, if you were asking the second question.
Well, the way I express is I used to start to write the stories again. But I wrote them, they're much happier stories. There was no tension at all in the stories and everyone was getting along really well. So Batman became friends with the Joker and things like that. So it was like this very la-la-la world of like crime and passion. And all this stuff was, was gone and now they were just all getting along and they were all friends. So that was my first exposure creatively.
Charles: (08:39)
Were you a risk-taker as a kid growing up?
Michael Aimette: (08:42)
I would say risk-tolerant more than risk-taker. I wouldn't like overtly look to take risks but I think I like the idea of taking risk. I don't think I was, I wasn't like a skateboard kid who could hurt himself. But I like to try things out and think about things and talk about things. So yeah, I think I was a risk-taker in that sense. But I wouldn't say it was something I actively sought out.
Charles: (09:04)
What about you, Emma? Were you a risk-taker growing up?
Emma Armstrong: (09:08)
I think maybe more of a thrill-seeker. And I felt like I liked to go fast. I grew up riding horses and play polo, which probably everyone will hate me for now, but I do. But, I like roller coasters. So maybe thrill rather than risk. I'm the eldest child so I'm quite risk-averse. Maybe risk-calculated.
Charles: (09:28)
And Gabriel, what about you? Were you a risk-taker?
Gabriel Schmitt: (09:32)
Absolutely not. I was pretty well trained in handling pressure, which is not exactly the same thing. But because I was in sports since very, very early. And worse, I was a goalkeeper. So I remember being very, very young. And I know we talked about it, Charles, but being seven years old and going to a soccer game with not many people watching, but I don't know, 500 people watching, I'd think.
And I'm there like, "Fuck. If I make a mistake here everyone is screwed." And I remembering seven years old and really taking in the pressure which, for good or bad, I think it helped going in advertising later. So in a way that's about the thing of being able to handle and figure out pressure and risk to a degree. But that was more the nuance for me.
Emma Armstrong: (10:23)
I think… I think I've noticed, maybe not risk-taking, but almost everyone that we work with beyond a certain level is very competitive, has played very competitive sports. And you talk about it's a high pressure environment you... I think we've all done something from a pretty young age where we're used to handling that pressure. And you understand the risk-reward of seeking out the high pressure, as well. And it fuels you to some extent.
Charles: (10:51)
Yeah, I think that's an astute observation actually. It's often true of leaders as they rise through organizations, that's one of the distinguishing features that they often bring to the table. What about you, Todd? Were you a risk-taker?
Todd Sussman: (11:03)
I remember as a kid, I was probably eight to nine, my brother convinced me to jump off the stairs, and I did it and I survived. And I always remember thinking, "Okay, what's next?" And then he convinced me to jump off the deck with an umbrella to see if I would float.
I don't know if that's risk-taking or just stupidity, but I would do those types of things and I would enjoy it. But I don't know if I was like, full on risk-taker in terms of like, I'm going to put myself in a position that's going to be truly dangerous. More I'm going to put myself in a position to see how brave I am. And I think I was testing my bravery.
Emma Armstrong: (11:42)
I think that's the Mary Poppins effect. We used to jump off walls with umbrellas.
Todd Sussman: (11:46)
You would do it too?
Emma Armstrong: (11:47)
Yeah.
Todd Sussman: (11:47)
Oh, okay. Yeah.
Emma Armstrong: (11:48)
Mary Poppins can fly with an umbrella.
Todd Sussman: (11:50)
Right.
Emma Armstrong: (11:50)
Why can't we?
Todd Sussman: (11:51)
It didn't work.
Emma Armstrong: (11:52)
No.
Todd Sussman: (11:53)
For me.
Emma Armstrong: (11:53)
Of course not.
Because you're not English.
Charles: (12:00)
FCB has had a phenomenal degree of success in the last couple years, especially in the last year, obviously. And the New York office has been a massive contributor to that. What drew you to the opportunity? What made you think that this was the place that you wanted to be part of?
Emma Armstrong: (12:17)
I don't know, I think... I met everybody, I liked everybody. There's a spirit about FCB that really drew me in that is, you know, we had all worked, we'd all worked in different places, very creative places, we've all made great work. We've worked with some really great people, and in some really good cultures.
And I think FCB provided the opportunity to bring all those things together in a way that was unique. You know, you work with the great people, maybe the culture isn't so great. You make some great work, but then maybe the people aren't all friendly and kind and nice. And in FCB I think what I saw the opportunity for, I think, what we've all managed to pull together, is a group of people who are talented and kind and competitive. Competitive facing out, not facing in, which you know, again, we've all worked at agencies where that's the case.
And truly committed to making a difference for our clients using creativity as an economic multiplier. And it sounds so easy to say, but I think, anyone listening who's worked at an agency or for a period of time, knows it's actually quite hard to do.
Charles: (13:25)
Hey Gabriel, what about you? Because obviously there were a lot of things you could have done. What made you decide that FCB New York was the place that you wanted to land next?
Gabriel Schmitt: (13:33)
I was convinced by Susan Credle, our Global CCO, in addition to my ego, that I could come and maybe help reshape what FCB New York meant and maybe realize all the potential that the place had. It was definitely not a easy decision. It was not a decision that was only taken by me in the sense that there was a lot of people that came along at the same time that I did to try to shake things up.
And some of the people left, some other people came. It was definitely not a obvious place to go nor a comfortable place to be, you know? At that point in my career, you're right I could have gone to some more comfortable places, outside, but I chose, and again, I do think there's something to do with ego where you go, "Oh wow, I think I want to be part of something that is… if this thing works is going to be bigger than, can be bigger than, a lot of the other options that I could have." And in the end of the day it was a bet.
But what I learned in my career is that the good things about making decisions is that after they're done, you just have to make them work. So that's what I try to do, along with everyone else who was here and is here now.
Charles: (15:04)
And Michael, what did you see when the opportunity came along that made you think this was a good move for you?
Michael Aimette: (15:10)
Yeah, I'm very different than everyone else in the sense that people have asked me this question a lot and unlike Gabriel who came in to help build - he came from Chicago to New York - I kind of look at myself as a mid-season acquisition to use a sports term. And I think it's a good one in the sense that I kind of knew what I was getting into. I knew that there was work to be done, for sure.
And I knew that there was a great place for me. I knew Gabriel by reputation. I knew Emma. We worked together and so we knew we were a good fit. And then I worked with Todd. I started off as a freelancer right in the very beginning of January past. And I got to work with Todd like day one and I, because— and I was like, "Oh, this guy is awesome."
And I just knew the quality of the people. I knew Susan for, for years and years and years at BBDO. So again, putting all those, those players together, it just seemed really, really obvious that this is a place destined to succeed and to continue to succeed. So I was really stoked to become a part of it, so I was very thankful and energized by all the great people in it.
And again, we can count on each other to such a degree and each other's opinions is meaningful to us. You know, I'm really excited when Todd likes an idea or Emma likes an idea. And then everyone's invited to throw their thoughts into it.
So when we talk about leadership, it definitely feel like it's not a single leader, it's a four-person leadership group. And I think that inspires other people here at the agency to become a part of it too. So, it's a contagious feeling of making this kind of place we want to make.
Charles: (16:32)
Being part of a leadership team, I think, in many ways is the hardest form of leadership. And doing it well and successfully is, you know, I think we've all experienced, real struggles when we're trying to put effective leadership teams together. Todd, let me start with you. I'm curious, what do you think makes this one work particularly well?
Todd Sussman: (16:49)
It's a good question. I think, one and it's going to sound super like, just trite, but I think we do just genuinely enjoy each other's company. If you were recording the 10 minutes before we started recording the podcast, I think you'd probably get a clear answer to that question of just how much fun it is to be around these guys.
I feel privileged to be sitting at the table right now. It's fun, we enjoy each other. And I think that energy is ultimately what… why it works because I don't think there's egos, I don't think anyone here feels they have the answer and we have to accommodate that. There's a general sense, I think, because we're all doing this for the first time, I think there's also a little bit of, "Let's lock arms and figure this thing out," and sort of make it work together.
And I think it would be a lot different if Michael had been a, you know, Chief Creative Officer for 15 years already and we were joining him. We would start to have to fall in line or defer a little bit. Because it's our first time together, I think there's a trust fall that's happening and it's like "Alright, what do you got? What do you got? Let's figure this out together. This is what I think, that's what you think." And so it ends up being more of we're passing the ball between each other versus necessarily one person's a scorer and we're all trying to keep up. So, I don't know if that was a cogent answer or not, but….
Michael Aimette: (18:08)
"Shut up, Todd, you're an idiot."
Todd Sussman: (18:10)
I should say three out of the four of us get along really well. But it's still is. It's still fine. It's a stool, it's not a chair, but it's a stool, and that's fine.
Michael Aimette: (18:19)
It's stronger.
Todd Sussman: (18:19)
It works. It is stronger technically.
Charles: (18:22)
And Gabriel, what about you? What do you think is magic about the chemistry of this group?
Gabriel Schmitt: (18:27)
I think that in addition to what Todd said, that there's a much more pragmatic answer which is, I genuinely know that Emma and Todd understand creative work. And I trust what they're saying and I don't go, and pretend I'm listening or pretending I'm playing ball just because we're running this together. I'm interested in what they're doing, because I know they got their shit together in that sense.
Emma Armstrong: (18:53)
Just Emma and Todd, not Michael?
Gabriel Schmitt: (18:55)
Well, I thought Michael is a given.
Michael Aimette: (18:57)
I'm a given? Well, I hope I would be a given creatively other- What am I doing here?
Gabriel Schmitt: (19:02)
So the second part of the answer is, and I would hope that will be the same with Michael and I, for strategic stuff, or for all the other business-related things that happen in the agency, you know. So I think that exchange that happens between us, even when we're talking about things that are not core to our skill set, or should be core to our skill set. We trust in each others opinions and gut reactions and whatnot. So, that's a pretty powerful combination, I think, and leads to a pretty good team.
Todd Sussman: (19:32)
I would also add though, I think it goes the other way too, at least from my point of view. I think we all are on the same page in terms of what kind of creativity we appreciate and enjoy, what kind of strategy we appreciate and enjoy, what kind of culture we want to build.
It seems on all of the major things we need to be doing as a leadership team, we're paddling in the same direction. And I think that's the most powerful thing that we bring to the table.
Emma Armstrong: (19:55)
We've all had situations where the business, in previous lives, I think, where the business is maybe counter to a creative decision or to a strategic decision, and that's simply not the case.
We use creativity to move our clients’ businesses forward. So Gabriel and Michael will say there's no cool ideas, there's only ideas that are on-strategy or off-strategy. So without Todd and his team making great work, and without great business leadership from the account team to create that trust and the relationship with the clients, and to understand that we're actually doing the right thing for that business, it just doesn't work. And I think we're all four of us are very much on the same page when it comes to how to run the business and why we need to run the business a certain way.
Charles: (20:41)
Michael, I think, it's obvious that the chemistry between the four of you is really strong. Clearly you all have egos because you can't reach the positions that you're at without a healthy ego and a degree of self confidence. But nevertheless, you and Gabriel are making a Co-CCO role work. We've all seen that tried lots and lots of times and it rarely works. Why do you think it does work in this situation?
Michael Aimette: (21:05)
I know why it works. I think it's the mutual respect. It always starts with that. But I think more interestingly probably is that we're very complementary. And I mean complementary with an "E" not an "I." In a sense that he and I are really different people. I like to think we're both very kind people, I think. He's Brazilian, I was born in Brooklyn, we're just… we have come from different backgrounds but it's amazing.
I remember I was in a meeting and Gabriel just became CCO and he met the creative department. I hadn't even joined the creative department and I was working here, though. And he gave a speech to the team. And I was like, “That is so aligned with the way I like to think about work and about people and about how to empower creatives," that I was like, "Oh, this guy's got it. I really feel a simpatico with the way he approaches things. “
And again, you could see we were different, but we kind of end up in the same place. And I think we want to create the same kind of culture we want to move people forward, we want to give people agency in their own ideas and we want to help as much as possible. So I think while we seem different on the surface, we're very, very similar when you cut much deeper. And I think that's really why it works so well in my opinion.
Todd Sussman: (22:10)
One thing, from my perspective, that I'd add too, of why it works, I think, for the agency. And I've seen this now a couple of times. If sometimes Michael and Gabe will be on the same thing, same project, but one will have to bounce out for a week, they're on vacation or whatever it is. And this has happened a few times where, the other one will jump in, give feedback, give direction. And everyone would be like, "Yeah, that's what Michael was saying, too." Or it was like aligned with it.
And so it's not that you guys are copying each other. I think the synergy and the alignment of how you see problems and how you see creativity is so in lockstep that there's nothing jarring in the agency. Everyone can predict and be part of that decision making.
Michael Aimette: (22:48)
Yeah. It's a challenge too because that was the one thing that we were aware of when we first started was how do we work together so that we don't... People know they can talk to either of us. They can talk to both of us and how to make that work. We kind of lucked out in some ways, in many ways in the sense that we kind of come from the same place. But I think it could be problematic if we weren't so aligned.
Charles: (23:10)
Emma, obviously this team's got really strong interpersonal chemistry. As the pandemic hit and everybody had to retreat to our homes, how did you manage to maintain the value of those relationships, the human connection and the energy that's created when you're together in person? How as a team were you able to maintain that and go on utilizing that even though you're physically separated?
Emma Armstrong: (23:32)
It's a great question, Charles, and I think for the four of us and for the broader leadership team as well… I mean, you know, you're talking four of us today. We have an incredible leadership team from talent to finance to business leadership production. Everyone's very strong. I think we all sort of - eight or nine of us - we're very bonded together.
So, for us running into pandemic, it was easy because we already had that mutual respect, that mutual trust. We have about five million ways of contacting each other from text message to Slack to emails and there was never any question that we were there for each other.
I think it's harder for the broader agency and it's honestly something we've struggled with. I think our tools have helped. Sounds really silly but we use Slack and it massively helps. It's just that little bit more informal so keeping people pulled together around cultural conversations, not just business conversations.
We've grown massively over the last year and a half, which is wonderful. That means that we've got a lot of new people who haven't ever been in the office together, haven't had the opportunity to interact with us personally very much. So, as we trickle back into the office, it's something we're very, very aware of. You know, how do we make sure that people already feel connected to the culture and to the whole.
I think one of the main things that have held that together is this shared vision for what creativity can do and the type of work that we're creating at the agency. You know, no matter what account you're on, you know that that's where the bar is and that's the job to be done. And I think that does help that, that's one of the foundational pillars of our culture and I think that helps pull us all together and keep us together.
Charles: (25:12)
How often do the four of you talk?
Emma Armstrong: (25:16)
All the time. I think it's easier to ask when do we not speak. There's probably some moments where we all sleep, where we don't speak.
Todd Sussman: (25:23)
Last weekend, I went out to dinner and I happened to sit... I went to the restaurant and Gabe was in the table next to me, just happened to be there, and we refused to talk to each other because we talk to each other so much. Actually, my wife reminded me that we got the restaurant recommendation from Gabe so it actually made a lot of sense I would see him.
Gabriel Schmitt: (25:47)
Gabe influencing people. Beautiful. That makes sense.
Charles: (25:53)
And how often do you disagree? How often do you have fundamental disagreements?
Michael Aimette: (25:57)
We have micro disagreements. I think we try to see each other's point of view as much as possible. Gabriel and I, we don't always agree on things but we generally find a consensus and it's generally not hard because I think it's all coming from the same place.
We kind of all work on everything, in the sense that like I love strategy, Gabriel loves strategy, we love to talk about strategy. we work on a manifesto, and we beat it up, you know, together and Todd, you took it as working as a partner. I hope you do because I think you do.
And that, that's not necessarily disagreement. It's just, again, working towards the same thing and just coming at it from different angles. And I think, again, if you come from the same place, it's easy to have micro disagreements because you have macro agreements.
Charles: (26:37)
I'm curious because there are so many partnerships out there that don't work like this, right? So many leadership teams that don't have this kind of synergy. And it's clear that you all like each other and respect each other. But I'm wondering what else you think is at the heart of the ability to navigate such a tough set of circumstances that everyone's lived through in the last 18 to 20 months.
How is it that you're able to like each other this much after 20 months together? How is it that you're able to have positive conversations, see each other's point of view? Where do you think that energy comes from?
Gabriel Schmitt: (27:07)
Well, if you think about it, we all have one pretty clear enemy, which was the fact that we had to run a business, you know, being separated. So, you have less room to disagree because there's something that feel pretty obvious when you're doing that. You know, when everything is fine, you have more room to try new stuff and, and do different things and potentially disagree or, and learn it and whatever.
First of all, when the the four of us came together, we have two very clear KPIs that we had to achieve that were, you know, established. Which was essentially growth of the company, and spreading the creative wealth around more pockets of the agency, which could lead into a lot of disagreements, obviously and a lot of good healthy discussions.
But then when there's a global pandemic and you have to do all of that while running a company where anyone is together, I think the only way in and the only way out is actually to lock in and go together and everyone has got this one common enemy so to speak that we all have.
Michael Aimette: (28:17)
We're too busy to fight, basically.
Gabriel Schmitt: (28:21)
That's well put.
Emma Armstrong: (28:23)
I do think everything is built in such a foundation of respect. I haven't ever worked with such talented group of people. And again I mean, it's about the three people, sitting around on microphones but across the board. And, you know, running an agency it's so simple and it's so hard. Find the best people, make them even better, make it as easy as possible for them to do the best work possible, and then set the bar really high and continue to encourage them to jump over it.
So I think we all fundamentally believe that, And when you believe that, then you can come together and make some of those hard decisions.
Something interesting happens, I think, around our dynamic and I notice it all the time. There's so much respect that actually when we do have those micro disagreements, people are more willing to see the other person's opinion and believe that they're right. We automatically assume that someone… that the other person has something incredibly valuable to add beyond our own opinions. I haven't necessarily worked with a group that's had that in the same way before.
Charles: (29:24)
And where does that respect come from? Is that about professional accomplishment? Is that about the way that you show up as human beings? Where do you think that comes from? What's the foundation of that respect?
Gabriel Schmitt: (29:36)
I think we've been in tough situations right off the bat and we all had to raise to the occasion. If one of us was the weak link or two of us were the weak links, this wouldn't work, just wouldn't because this is a business and we really care about what we're doing here.
So we all love each other because we know that everyone is really, really good. Otherwise, it just wouldn't work. And I think we had several different situations where we could prove that.
As year one of all of us together happened, with all the, you know, all the challenge that we had was really tough for other reasons that, that we know. But I feel, like, obviously it's still not, not easy. But it's way more fun because the foundation's there. We all know they were really good and we can have fun together and hopefully don't fuck things up so... Am I cursing too much?
Todd Sussman: (30:27)
Just enough. You know, just to add on all that, I do think when we've all been in the foxhole together and I think when we're in there, it's easy for some people to hunker down and get defensive or be difficult to listen or whatever. I think what's one of our superpowers as a group is when the bullets start flying, we still listen to each other and we still take constructive feedback and we can still adapt to that.
And then on top of that, we all have the respect that each person in each team is going to hustle their ass off. No one's just going to punt something over and be like, "Well, that's what I have and, you know, let's just go with it." There's still a hustle and an energy to each of us. It's like, "All right, yeah, let's dig in. Let's keep pushing." And I think we've all seen that in each of us. Like, the relentlessness that I think we respect.
Michael Aimette: (31:18)
Also, the attention to detail and the kind of work that we do. I think the fact that we're all willing to get into the minutiae of the work. It's not subjugation of the ego necessarily but it's just a willingness to put the effort in and to do those things that it takes for an agency to run. And I think that earns respect really fast, I feel. When you see people dig in and do that kind of work, you're going to go like, "Oh, I want to do the same one but from, my perspective." So I think that, I think that helps a lot.
Charles: (31:45)
So I have two last questions I would like to get each of you to answer, and let me start, Todd, with you. how do you lead?
Todd Sussman: (31:52)
How do I lead? I, I think I lead a little bit by example, to be honest. I guess two things. One, by example. I think a lot of it is, you know, this is what I've learned and this is what's worked for me and so therefore I'm going to express that and demonstrate it. And I probably do that a little bit too much. I'm just like, "Let me literally show you, what I've learned in my past and how it's worked for me and why I think it's going to work."
But then I think the other thing, and maybe also too much for your judgment, I think I lead with compassion. I think I'm very empathetic to the fact that the people on my team, the people in the agency aren't just advertising people. They're people, they're humans, and they have lives, and I think we need to be really considerate of the fact that people are living other parts of their life while they're trying to do this. And how do we make space for that and room for that? And how do we understand who they are and what gets them excited, what bums them out? How do we energize that, how do we be considerate about that, how do we work around that? And really look at people as a whole. look at people on my team that's the whole person as opposed to just a Strategy Director. I try to really understand them as a person.
Charles: (32:59)
Michael, what about you? How do you lead?
Michael Aimette: (33:02)
I'd say I lead with humility, I hope. And I think, I like to think that, in order to be a leader, you need people to lead and you need those people to be working to the best of their abilities and as people and as whatever their job happens to be.
So I think, being... I think having humility and an appreciation for who they are and what they're doing is, goes a long way and I think it inspires people to do their best. So I think that's how I do it.
Charles: (33:29)
Gabriel, what about you?
Gabriel Schmitt: (33:33)
I'm going to build on what Michael was saying. There's this idea of the servant leader, which is not, honestly, is not my natural trait but it's something that I really try to exercise. I think that we are in the beginning of shaping, the first stages, or maybe a little bit ahead of the first stages of shaping our culture here. And this is not about the four of us. And I really, really believe that the more laurels that the other people here get, the better will be for them and therefore, for us.
We have this saying here between the four of us where we say, you know, “When one of us leave, two of us leave, all of us leave… If people from outside need to be hired rather than promoting someone, we kind of failed.” And I think that's a really nice framework to always take into consideration
I would love to in the future have a bunch of people here who are leading the place that came from here like I did. Next year, I'll be 10 years of FCB, you know. And the place, the organization really gave me a platform, gave me a stage and encouraged my good things and helped me with my bad things. And as leaders, we have to do the same.
Charles: (34:52)
Emma, what about you? How do you lead?
Emma Armstrong: (34:57)
I echo what all three of them say. The only thing I'd add is through curiosity. I became very aware pretty early on in my career that I am only one person. And the team can do so much more than I can do alone. So, constantly remembering that and again, going back to, find the best people, make it as easy as possible for them to do their job, and set the bar high.
But I think all four of us have a responsibility to the organization to be curious and to constantly be looking outside of the organization and figure out what's next. In addition to, you know, the people and the operations and the pieces, which is looking inward. If we don't look outside and we don't talk to our clients and figure out what next and new problem they need solving, then no one else is going to do it for us. That's our job.
And I think… you asked a lot and probed a lot on what makes us work as a group. I think we all have an innate curiosity. It shows up in different ways. We all have an innate curiosity about the world around us, about creativity, about the power of creativity and also about where the world is going next, whether it's from a marketing standpoint or probably more interestingly from a global standpoint.
So I think that that's the only other thing I'd add to what the guys were talking about from a leadership standpoint. I think we just have to constantly be curiously learning.
Charles: (36:19)
And last question for all of you, and Todd, I'll start with you. What are you afraid of?
Todd Sussman: (36:25)
I think maybe I'm just afraid of something messing this up, you know, at the end of the day. I don't know what that is but, I don't know. I feel really fortunate to just be part of this right now. And, I don't want anything to disrupt it.
I want it to keep getting better because I think it is on this trajectory and sitting on top of this rocket right now and I kind of enjoy it. And I look forward to the next… whatever is next. And I don't want that next to not be this.
Charles: (36:54)
Michael, what about you?
Michael Aimette: (36:57)
A really hard question. What am I afraid of? I mean, not dissimilar to Todd's. I mean, I think we all have this fear of failure. There's two types of motivation, to succeed and to not fail. And I've got, I probably have equal doses of both of those things, to be honest.
It goes back to the idea that we're all kind of doing this for the first time, which I think is that. And I think we've had such success. I'll be interested in how we deal with inevitable setbacks, which are bound to come, you know.
You lose an account, something, some one of us leaves, one of those things happen. So, yeah. I think that the status quo is an easy thing to sort of cling on to and I think not... The unknown, I guess, is what I'm fearful of and the unknown is anything different than what is.
Charles: (37:43)
Gabriel, what about you?
Gabriel Schmitt: (37:47)
I'm afraid of looking back, I don't know, many years from now and not feeling that we didn't realize all the potential that we have.
I really want to make sure that those how many years we are together, not only the four of us, but then the extended leadership team and then the agency at large, that it really felt worth it from, yes, we did amazing work but also, we truly had fun and it was in a light way as much as possible. Not to be too optimistic, in a light way as much as possible. That's my biggest fear.
Charles: (38:25)
And Emma, what about you?
Emma Armstrong: (38:29)
I have two things. One is a little more simplistic. One is just I'm afraid of letting everybody down. That's a big driver, you know. I think one of the dynamics that works really well with us. And also, I mean, we've talked a lot about us. There's a whole agency of amazing people out there and we feel very, very strongly about every single one of them. When we speak, we speak for all of them, I think. But, I'm very conscious of the fact that I don't want to let them down with any of the decisions that we make. They’re always hard decisions by the time they come to to us. They're never easy ones.
I’m also... And it sort of builds on something that Gabe said a little earlier, I went from one agency to another. Both were great creative agencies. But the second agency I went to that creativity was really led by a human that left whilst I was there. And the culture of creativity really dissipated after they had left. And I think building on what Gabe said about if the four of us leave or the management team leaves and we don't have clear successors and the agency doesn't persist, then we haven't really done our job.
Anyone can have a good year. Anyone could have a couple of good years. But I think what we're trying to build here is an agency that has a culture that persists long after we've gone. And that's very, very, very hard. Our industry is so much built on personalities and interactions and relationships, so creating something that has this real institutional change versus pulled along by all of us, is something we talk about a lot.
It's something that we try and keep our minds on as we make decisions. I don't want to look back in, I don't know, 10 years, 15 years, whenever it is and say, "Oh, FCB used to be a good agency." No. We want FCB to be still a world-beating agency making great work for great clients.
Charles: (40:22)
Thank you all very much for coming on the show today and joining me. Every week at the beginning of the show, I talk about the fact that I think leadership sits at the intersection of strategy and humanity. And the strategy behind FCB's phenomenal success over the last 18 months, I think, we can discern from the outside. And I'm grateful to all of you for being willing to share some of the humanity that's clearly behind it. So thank you all very much indeed.
Emma Armstrong: (40:45)
Thank you, Charles.
Michael Aimette: (40:46)
Thank you, Charles.
Todd Sussman: (40:47)
Thank you.
Gabriel Schmitt: (40:48)
As always, Charles.
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