David Kolbusz of Droga5
Redefining the status quo.
"FEARLESS CREATIVE LEADERSHIP" PODCAST - TRANSCRIPT
Episode 161: David Kolbusz
Hi. I’m Charles Day. I work with creative and innovative companies. I coach and advise their leaders to help them maximize their impact and grow their business. To help them succeed where leadership lives - at the intersection of strategy and humanity.
This is Season 3 - “Leading The Future.” These next few months are going to be chaotic. Industries are being reformed, culture is being redefined. New rules are being written and rewritten. It’s happening already. Decisions are being made today, literally today, about how to compete for talent and relevance in this new world. So, how should leaders lead as we meet a world of new possibilities and expectations?
This week’s guest is David Kolbusz - the Chief Creative Officer at Droga5 in London.
He’s worked for many of the most iconic agencies in the advertising industry. BBH, Goodby Silverstein, Wieden & Kennedy and Droga.
Most of the time, he’s found a great fit. Occasionally, he hasn’t. But at every step of the way he’s brought a distinctive perspective and point of view.
David talked about the fact that he does not consider himself a risk taker.
But he is absolutely willing to see the status quo for what it is. An artifice. And a falsehood.
“Life is one big cosmic joke, I think we can all agree if we really focus on the thing in front of us and kind of go, we've all agreed to behave in a certain way and be guided by certain sets of principles. Some based on geography, some based on who governs us. It varies. But none of this is organic or real or true, it's all constructed.”
Leading inside the lines is a choice. Pushing against them is another. But recognizing they don’t actually exist is perhaps the most powerful starting point for any form of creative leadership.
In a world in which everything we thought we knew has been thrown up in the air, playing by an old set of artificial rules will get us to one place fast - a broken version of the past.
Leading the future starts when you imagine the world without rules. And then let the most powerful force of all - your imagination - run wild.
Here’s David Kolbusz.
Charles: (02:23)
David, welcome to Fearless. Thanks so much for coming on the show.
David Kolbusz: (02:26)
Thanks for having me.
Charles: (02:28)
Tell me, when did creativity first show up in your life? When were you first conscious that creativity was a thing?
David Kolbusz: (02:34)
Wow. Coming in really hot there, Charles, with the first question. Pretty early actually, pretty early on. If we're looking for markers, I think probably when I was in first grade, which puts me at around six. I was hopeless at everything, like sports and any of the early measures of childhood accomplishment. But the one thing that I got was an avid reader award, which is one of those dubious honors, isn't it? Because on one hand it's like you haven't really done anything except for just you read a whole bunch of books, it was volume more than quality. But yeah, I remember getting that award and being like, "Okay. Yeah, I guess that makes sense."
Charles: (03:35)
Do you still read a lot today?
David Kolbusz: (03:37)
I do. Yeah, yeah. Fits and spurts. I mean, we all have periods where... I think, of course, over the course of my life as I've broadened out my interests and they encompass so many other artistic disciplines, literature finds… and non-fiction of course, finds its way into the quiver of arrows or the... Analogies, I'm terrible with analogies, but you get what I'm saying. I mean, I'll go through a phase where I'll read so many books, and that will be the predominant source of art that I take in. Then I'll shift and it'll be film, and I'll shift and it'll be dance, and then will shift and it'll be operas. And I go through periods of obsession, but yeah, no, reading always figures prominently, and I've always got my eye open for the latest thing.
Charles: (04:30)
Were you obsessive growing up? Was that a trait that you are conscious of as you look back?
David Kolbusz: (04:35)
Oh, yes. Yeah. I think there's no question. Yeah, it's always been a hallmark of my character, and you just have to live with it and manage it and deal with it and hope that it manifests in positive ways rather than negative ones.
Charles: (04:51)
What are the positive ways it shows up? When do you like it as a character trait?
David Kolbusz: (04:55)
I think it's just that, isn't it? It's like being able to, having the capacity to take in a lot and consume a lot and be stimulated by a lot and follow those wormholes. Yeah. I have a natural aptitude for making connections and reading or watching something and finding the most interesting bit of that thing, and then following where that leads and it takes me to a new place, so it becomes this, my entire life. My entire mind is a spider map of arts and culture, and I find that enormously gratifying. And I'd say that's probably a good thing, because it comes in handy when I'm trying to work or lead or whatever.
Charles: (05:50)
So you're always looking for inputs, you're always looking to be in the middle of stuff?
David Kolbusz: (05:54)
Constantly. I think it's an integral part of what we do. Yeah.
Charles: (06:02)
So curiosity is pretty much the driving force for you?
David Kolbusz: (06:05)
Yes, yes. Curiosity, 100%. Yeah. It's what drives creative people, I think, and what makes them consistently relevant even into their dotage. I wish I knew how to... I'm terrible with computers though, so if you hear the occasional chime it's because I haven't... My curiosity stops at figuring out how to turn off alerts. The last time it happened the other day, I was trying to do it and then basically I switched to a new default browser. I won't mention brand names or anything, because I don't want to offend anyone, but it's not a default browser that I enjoy, Charles, and I couldn't change it back. And it was very, very disconcerting. Yeah. So I think anyone who remains creatively vital into their old age is because they keep feeding the mind, feeding the beast, constant inputs.
Charles: (07:18)
Were you a risk taker as a kid?
David Kolbusz: (07:21)
No. And nor am I a risk taker now. I've always played it very, very safe. That doesn't mean I'm not crazy and the things that I do aren't perceived as risks, I just look at them as safe within the bounds of my very specific reality. If that makes sense.
Charles: (07:40)
So what are the bounds of your reality? I think that's such an interesting reference point.
David Kolbusz: (07:44)
It's the prism through which I see the world as specific to me. And I consider myself safe and the things that I do safe, but of course my perception is going to be different than others who might perceive me as being a bit of a risk taker. But in my head, there's a certain safety, because I believe that I've done the creative equations in my head.
Charles: (08:11)
So what would you consider risky?
David Kolbusz: (08:19)
What I would consider risky is making something that I wasn't particularly sure was going to turn out well. I kind of always have to know that something's going to turn out well, or at least interesting. There's always danger, but as long as you know that there's a way to stick the landing. God, I'm making so many analogies today, Charles, and all of them are terrible, but I hope you understand. It's a hallmark of my character that I'm terrible at analogies, but I keep trying. It's the only thing that I'm really, really bad at that I keep trying and consistently fail every time, but anyway.
Charles: (08:54)
How did you end up in advertising? What was the path that brought you to advertising?
David Kolbusz: (08:57)
I think I wanted to get into film, but I didn't want to... The only pathways of which I was aware were getting coffee for people, and that seemed logically in my head not the... I love instant gratification. I'm not great at waiting for things. And so, it was kind of, "What is the shortest distance between my desire to make film of some kind and being able to roll a camera?" And it seemed like advertising was probably that path.
Charles: (09:36)
Were there certain kinds of films you wanted to make, were there certain kinds of stories you wanted to tell?
David Kolbusz: (09:41)
It's funny, because when you're young and creative and you have lots of ideas, it's just kind of anything and everything that pops into your head and occurs to you and you think, "Oh, that could make an interesting film. Oh, that could be an interesting idea. Oh, that could be a good TV series. Oh, that could be an interesting book." You're young and impetuous and crazy, and sometimes it works out and sometimes it doesn't. But then I think as you grow older, you start to see patterns and you figure out some things that you're interested in. And interestingly enough, or whether you're aware of them or not, there seems to become a thread in the things that you do and you write and you create.
I think where I've got to over time is that I have a much better sense of what it is that fascinates me and the things that I look for in my own creative pursuits. I write on the side, of course, as well, too. So the screenplays that I've written for instance, or the play plays that I've written, are all connected with certain themes. And I think my analytical brain, which was developed during my college years, I think, have enabled me to have a clearer view of what those themes are.
Charles: (11:17)
What are those themes? How do you describe them?
David Kolbusz: (11:19)
Mostly, fraud in a way and the arbitrary nature of the bureaucratic systems that surround us. And I address them differently in different... Life is one big cosmic joke, I think we can all agree if we really focus on the thing in front of us and kind of go, we've all agreed to behave in a certain way and be guided by certain sets of principles. Some based on geography, some based on who governs us. It varies. But none of this is organic or real or true, it's all constructed.
Charles: (12:02)
So are you always pushing against those boundaries? I mean, is that part of your life's journey?
David Kolbusz: (12:06)
I'm always exploring them. I wouldn't say I'm pushing, because I think I'm quite good about following rules. I understand that they're there, but I'm fascinated by the fact that they're there and I'm fascinated by the fact that at any point anyone could just go off and do something else that doesn't necessarily subscribe to those set of rules. And there's a way of doing it that results in negative consequences, and then there's a way of doing it which is mildly subversive and won't get you arrested. And I'm kind of curious as to where the line is at all times. It's kind of fascinating to me.
Charles: (12:46)
So you're not a revolutionary?
David Kolbusz: (12:48)
Not even slightly, I'm far too scared as a human being to be a revolutionary, no.
Charles: (12:54)
What are you scared of?
David Kolbusz: (12:56)
Punishment. No, it's comfort is a big thing. It's the whole reason that I went into advertising as well, too, instead of running and getting coffee and eventually gambling on whether I'd get to make a movie or not. I'm much more comfortable doing what I'm doing and knowing that one day, in time, when I've built up the connections that I have and they see the value in the things that I've produced outside the world of advertising, that some day, in all likelihood, someone will allow me to make a film or two or three. It might happen sooner than we think. In conversations with other people about those types of things now. Doesn't invalidate what I'm doing in the present. I love what I do. I didn't always, but I think I've gotten good at it again now. And I'm curious about it again and excited about the possibilities. Yeah.
Charles: (13:57)
What is it about film do you think that so draws you to it?
David Kolbusz: (14:02)
It's weird that I keep defaulting to film. I'd also love to write a book. Actually, weirdly, in the last six months I thought to myself, "Oh, that could be a book." I've actually got an interesting idea for a book now. And it was just something that I always kind of felt was like, "I'll never write a book, who writes books? You'd have to be crazy and have so much focus." And I had an idea and I was just like, "Oh, actually, maybe this is a good place for all these ideas."
I think film, there's something magical and enveloping about film, isn't there? And there always has been, it's an escape into a world that is so foreign to yours and potentially better or worse, but it's a window into new experiences, ones that you can't possibly... Life is filled with so much stuff, and you're never going to be able to experience all of it. And a film is a tiny window, a little snapshot of someone else's life and you can just escape and live in that place for a brief moment. It's brilliant for time travel, mostly 20th century. Yeah, so for those reasons, and different experience and different philosophies. I'm a hyper-empath as well, too, I've just made that word up, or I did at a certain stage, I just assume. I actually haven't looked up whether that's a thing or not. I do take on a lot, i.e., pain and happiness, and I just feel a lot of what other people feel. I have the ability to get very, very into whatever it is that's put in front of me.
Charles: (15:45)
Does that quality, that hyper empathetic quality, does that mean that the environment in which you're living and existing and working is incredibly important to you?
David Kolbusz: (15:58)
It's the connections that I make with people are incredibly important. And I feed off the energy of other individuals. That's always why I find… the clients that I work with the most important thing is... People say, "Who's your dream client?" And expecting me to say something like, “Nike,” or blah, blah, or whatever. Nike's always the default, Nike or Apple, seem to be is everyone's dream client. My dream client are people who I have a spirit of community with, a meeting of minds, someone who has similar ambitions, whose energy matches mine, and we can work together to make the most exciting pieces of communication possible.
Charles: (16:41)
You alluded earlier to the fact your career hasn't been a straight line, and in some places you've been really successful, in some places less so. You just mentioned the environment in which you operate is really important. You're a Canadian operating and leading in an English company. What are the conditions that you look for that you know you need in order for you to be successful?
David Kolbusz: (17:01)
Well, for me, the way that I've always tried to operate, and the work that I respond to and have always done on both sides of the Atlantic, is work that connects with people on a deeper human level and that is reflective of universal behavioral truths. I find that far more interesting than anything geographical. I'm at my happiest when I'm creating work that even if it's got dialogue in it or it's something that will feel almost true anywhere in the world. And of course, sometimes cultural nuance plays... I don't look at borders as a means of dictating the type of work that I do. I like my stuff to play well in well-functioning democracies, I suppose, and the odd dictatorship.
Charles: (18:06)
What are the conditions that you're trying to create, from a leadership standpoint?
David Kolbusz: (18:12)
That's interesting. Conditions where people can feel free to explore the limits of their imagination, but within the bounds of good taste. I think one of the things that I think I bring to the party is a high taste level. And I think the last thing I ever want to do when I'm working with other creative types is to hem them in and make them feel forced to do something that is not true to themselves or their abilities. So I believe in a degree of reciprocity between the person who is creating and who they are creating for, in the creatives’ case, the Creative Director. I like to find something that is authentic to the creative person, but I apply my taste level to that. I like to help people realize their creative ambitions, but with my taste filter.
Charles: (19:34)
When does that become difficult for people? When is it difficult for people that work for you to receive your taste level on top of their work?
David Kolbusz: (19:44)
I think people trust me. I think the people that work for me trust me. The one thing that I think I will say about my career, whether you like my work or whether you don't like my work, I think you'll find that one of the running themes is that everyone thinks that I have good taste. And so, it doesn't really become that much of a problem as we're going through the creative process. I think people take it as tacit that the taste level that I'm bringing to the party is going to help or make things better. But I also, like if I'm having an off day or if I’m calling into question my own... If I'm not sure about something, it's not just confidence and brio in absentia of any fallibility, I'm also curious about myself and why am I feeling this way? And is this opinion wrong, and is it movable? And I like to overexplain and be hyper analytical with people. And I like to be fallible with my team, as well, too, and let them know that sometimes I get it wrong.
There's a project that I was working on most recently, where I saw things in a very specific way and my creative team, who are much younger than me, felt pretty passionately about their vision for the film that they wanted to make, or the campaign in totality, but the film specifically in this case, and our sensibilities were really jarring at a certain stage. And it would have been easy for me to go, "No, no, no, we're going to do it my way," but it was harder and more interesting for me to go, "Maybe I've got it a little bit wrong. What if we follow their vision for this thing?" And I forced my director to get on board and follow their vision. And we apply our taste filter, it's a director who I work with a lot, and so we've got a meeting of minds here.
It was just, "Let's go with them on this journey and let's try and make it as much like they want it as possible while still applying our taste filter." And that's what we've done. The team is really, really happy, because they've made something that's truer to their original version, and we're really happy because we made something successfully, I think, touch wood, client presentation tomorrow, that feels like we have stepped outside of our comfort zone and made something that is true to what we do, but different enough that it feels fresh and interesting.
Charles: (22:13)
How long have you been able to see the potential value of somebody else's input like as you've just described? Is that relatively recent for you? Have you always been able to do that in your career?
David Kolbusz: (22:22)
No, I think I've always been able to do that, because there's things that you're confident in and there's things that you're less confident about. No one knows everything, and you always have to be open to the fact that you're wrong, because that's the only way you learn. There've been periods in my life where I've felt strongly about things and probably been slightly misguided in my convictions. Yeah, more often than not, I've always been perceptive to other... But I always approach it analytically.
Charles: (23:04)
What's the toughest part of leadership for you?
David Kolbusz: (23:07)
Leading. Being expected to lead. For all the reasons that we've talked about, because I don't believe in leadership. I believe in leadership by default. I believe that anyone who's perceived as being a born leader is usually full of shit. Because at any stage in our lives, we could take a knock or we could lose our talent or anything could happen, and then the entire system collapses. It's the whole Prince and the Pauper notion. Yeah, so for me, being straight-faced and standing in a room full of people and going, "This is where we're headed, and this is our North Star."
It's the vision thing, right? I've always struggled with it. What's our vision? Our vision is to do... What's your job? Your job is to make incredible work and put beautiful things into the world. So just do that, that's the vision. No, but what's our vision? Well, the vision is to take all the blights on our landscape, the billboards and the shit that is streamed into our homes that people fucking hate, and try and make them less hateful. And in so doing shift a whole bunch of your client's product or service, that's the vision, that's the job. Anyone who suggests that it's something other than that is a snake oil salesman, in most cases, I think, unless you really do rip it up and change the model, but how fucking rare does that happen?
Charles: (24:38)
You mentioned… you said something about you might lose your talent, what did you mean by that?
David Kolbusz: (24:45)
There's a long rich history. And this is my current theory, which is that if I keep feeding my mind and feeding and taking in and taking in and taking in, then I'll stay relevant. It's the Susan Hoffman theory. A mutual friend of ours, Susan Hoffman, who was my colleague and later my boss at Wieden Kennedy, is still creatively brilliant and vital. She's been in the game, what, like 40 plus years and she's amazing every day, because she is constantly feeding. It actually wasn't until I met Susan Hoffman where I was like, "Oh fuck, you can still be that sharp and sharper than kids, at any age." And it's because she put me to shame with the amount of stuff that she would watch, listen to, smell, taste, touch, put in front of her eyes.
But yeah. But you do see examples where people slide into irrelevance or they stop producing great work. And it is a constant worry of the creative mind that you're going to... There's no mathematical equation to creativity. There can be mathematical equations to what is good, but I think the creative mind is far too mercurial to be able to be pinned down. And so, there's always a fear of losing that.
Charles: (26:14)
Are you ever looking for your mind to be at rest? Does just the state of rest scare you?
David Kolbusz: (26:21)
Of course. No, it doesn't scare me. I'm suspicious of it, because it feels inauthentic to who I am. If I take a week off a year, then that's pretty good. If I can just park my brain and just let everything settle. But even then, it still becomes a bit of a challenge. Like going to the beach, I always have to have something with me to look at or to enjoy. I can't be 24 hours away from... I need to have a newspaper close by or something. Otherwise, it just kind of feels strange to me, definitely. Yeah.
Charles: (27:14)
Do you like being the outsider? Is there a part of your character that just revels in the tension that that creates and the perspective that that provides you?
David Kolbusz: (27:23)
I wouldn't say I like it, I'm ambivalent. It's how I survive, I guess, is the only way to put it. I am me, I can't be anyone other than me. I am often considered an outsider and it's the way that I get by. I learned very early on that I can't become someone else. And I tried, I think, for many years, in many different facets of my life, whether it was being the cool guy who's able to talk to women, or to be easy with friends and to have a large friend group. I'm too jittery and neurotic for that. It's like, "Oh, maybe I'll figure out how to enjoy sports." No, it's not me. But you try to wear these different hats or masks and it just feels inauthentic. So people have branded me an outsider or slightly odd or slightly dark and you start to embrace it, not because you particularly like it, but because it feels like there's no other option, I guess.
Charles: (28:52)
How would you like people to think of you?
David Kolbusz: (28:55)
Kind. I'd like people to think of me as kind and like I've contributed positively to their lives in some creative way, I think, because I do prize creativity. And I don't think it's a lie to say that I like it when I make things that people enjoy, it makes me happy.
Charles: (29:24)
And how do you lead?
David Kolbusz: (29:27)
By example, I think, is the default, where I've got to, what I’ve become comfortable. My leadership style is I do or I can explain very well. Yeah, so by being hyper analytical or doing the thing that I've asked other people to do or by providing them with an example of how something should be done, they can get to better results themselves. And I think, hopefully, in most cases people aren't too shy to ask me questions.
Charles: (30:12)
And what are you afraid of?
David Kolbusz: (30:21)
Boredom, I guess. But less so, increasingly. Weirdly, the pandemic has actually made me very comfortable with the fact that there will be always something to do. No, but it's interesting, because also when things opened up slightly back in, I want to say October, November, and the city was a little less populous, and the stores were half-full, and there were less people engaged with culture and commerce, that scared me a little bit. Because it made me realize how important people engaging with culture was to my enjoyment of culture as well, too. I love the zeitgeist, I love the cultural zeitgeist, I love phenomena.
It's not just enough to have art. There's that Twilight Zone episode where the world ends and he was in a bunker and all he wanted to do was read. And then when the world ends and it's just him and he's alone with all the books in the world and then his glasses break, and that's the twist ending and blah, blah, blah. But to me, that is not an ideal scenario. To be alone with all the culture in the world is not enough. I need to be able to talk about it with others and share it with others and watch how it evolves and experience how someone young has taken something that they've seen or heard and reinterpreted it and brought their own.
There's nothing worse than when old people are like, "Oh, if I was going to listen to that music, I'd just listen to Led Zeppelin or something like that." It's just like, "No, no, no. They're a young band who just learned Led Zeppelin or learned of Led Zeppelin. They've heard Led Zeppelin and they're excited." I don't know why I'm using Led Zeppelin. They're writing their own songs, and they're trying to emulate Led Zeppelin, and perhaps failing on some level, but they're bringing something new. They've taken that input and they're adding their own thing and creating an entirely new thing. And sure, there are parts of it that are derivative, but my God, what are they going to bring to the future?" Something probably exciting. It's connections, it's connections, isn't it? Am I making any sense?
Charles: (32:38)
Yes, I think a great deal of sense. I've always been struck by your energy and the vibrancy that you bring, and I want to thank you so much for sharing so much of that today. I just think it's such an interesting journey that you're on it and such an interesting perspective you bring to the world.
David Kolbusz: (32:53)
Oh, well that's very kind of you, thanks. And I've always enjoyed your energy too, Charles, which has made this chat a pleasure.
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