Nils Leonard of Uncommon
What Happened When He Slowed Down.
"FEARLESS CREATIVE LEADERSHIP" PODCAST - TRANSCRIPT
Episode 152: Nils Leonard
Hi. I’m Charles Day. I work with creative and innovative companies. I coach and advise their leaders to help them maximize their impact and grow their business.
Welcome to Season 3, which we’re calling, “Leading The Future”.
How do leaders lead when none of us have ever been here before?
This episode’s guest is Nils Leonard - the co-founder of Uncommon, the London-based Creative Studio. They were just named Agency of the Year by Campaign UK.
He believes that, 'Good things happen to people who do stuff’. He’s got enviable energy. And he’s in a hurry.
He’s not alone in that. Most leaders are in a hurry. Sometimes constructively. Sometimes not.
People are really going to be in a hurry this year. They already are. To go back. To move forward. To not get left out.
Those instincts can take over. Progress becomes everything and the quality of that progress becomes secondary. Sometimes, it even becomes a nuisance.
Nils told me that he slowed down earlier this year. He was diagnosed with COVID-19 and ended up in hospital. Suddenly what was important became clearer. Some things became even more so. Some things dramatically less.
It’s human nature to be in a hurry. We want to make progress. It’s how we’ve survived as a species.
And making progress is critical to leadership. It’s how we keep our people interested.
But progress is relevant. It requires context. From where to where? And why?
Take away that context and you have no way to judge what is important and what isn’t.
In that sense, context is the leadership equivalent of a hospital bed. Only less frightening.
What are you doing today and why? How are you making progress?
Here’s Nils Leonard.
Charles: (02:01)
Nils, welcome back. Thanks for coming back on the show.
Nils Leonard: (02:04)
Charles, it's lovely to see you, mate. Thank you for having me.
Charles: (02:06)
How will you look back on 2020?
Nils Leonard: (02:10)
Honestly, oh God, such a crazy mix. In a weird way I think the start of 2021 has been a more touching and scary and maudlin year. 2020, it was like a crisis that I think myself and the people around me took the best sort of road through that we could. And, for Uncommon, the company that feels like a part of my life, it was one of the best years we've ever had.
So I'm really mixed. It's a very... You're massively high emotions and of energy sort of troughs and highs, but ultimately our company and the brands that we work with and the endeavors that we've placed our time and energy into came through on every scale. We ended up being Agency of the Year.
So in some ways I look back and it will be a seminal year for us, typical of Uncommon, of course, to be Agency of the Year in the year of a fucking pandemic. And, kind of moving in that way. So in a strange way, Charles, I think I'll look back with fondness and it will be a real memory and hopefully, I'll feel like I do now, which is that myself and the people around me really just forged ahead and did the best we could have with it.
Charles: (03:22)
And as you look back at the things that you can point to now that you think that was important, doing that was critical?
Nils Leonard: (03:28)
Yeah, definitely. In terms of the business, yes. I mean, I think the first thing is that our overall positioning. We have this quote from “The death of the salesman”, ‘I'm not interested in stories about the past or any crap of that kind, because the woods are burning.’ We have this whole ethos of responding to the crises or opportunities around us, that's Uncommon's view, right?
And we've had that from the start. It's never been more useful than in that year. And I think us talking about purpose and everybody talking about purpose, the best articulation of purpose I can think of now is it's this simple. What does your company or brand do in a moment of crisis? That's why you need a purpose. So, you know.
And I look back on that and go, just having that positioning and sharing that positioning with some of our clients like ITV and a few others, that was the secret to really how we decided to work during that whole year.
Charles: (04:21)
How long does a crisis work as a catalyst?
Nils Leonard: (04:26)
That's a great question. Being really honest, it's really hard this, because someone asked that question a different way and they sort of went, what if something isn't a crisis? And on our interpretation of it, that was my read on that year and make no mistake, that year was a crisis, right?
But the idea behind opposition, the idea behind finding a purpose, because the woods are burning, is about forced change, not necessarily crisis. It's about the spirit of opportunity and movement. And the idea that something on the horizon is saying to you, "Are you cool? Do you need to move things forward?"
Now the majority of people that come talk to Uncommon don't come because they want a 1% uplift in sales. They come because they want radical change that's usually forced by something. Be that new management, new leadership, challenging economic uncertainty, their category, whatever it might be.
So more often than not, when we say the woods are burning, we mean something is forcing this change, in a good way. And we see the positives in that, and I think, so in that sense, that's endless. There is always a certain bunch of people being forced either by their internal inertia or by the events of the world to change what they're doing. And we end up being the people for them in my experience.
So, it is a great question. I do think it's a healthy exercise to look for what's driving decision-making. You can feel the lethargy of not seeing the world, if that makes sense. You know, the people who exist just in their category very rarely have the energy to make real change. I think people who exist in the world see it and go, "Well, hang on a minute, where are we in that conversation? What is our role in all this?" And those are the people we tend to work best with.
Charles: (06:07)
Yeah. I think it's a very important distinction actually. And on one level it strikes me in some respects as the distinction between leading and managing. I think that the group of people who are open to the broader conversation tend to be the ones who are most comfortable leading and the others tend to be the ones who were more about, how do we maximize resource allocation, questions like that in that situation, which feels more to me like management. Important, but not potentially industry or business saving in moments of crisis.
Your description of 2021 as we started today really struck me. I know you've been personally hit by COVID. How do you look at the year so far? What do you think are going to be the challenges?
Nils Leonard: (06:47)
2020 was an out and out crisis. We're all screwed. You're in the same boat, lock the doors, batten the hatches, let's all go, and that's the spirit I personally invested in and Uncommon did. And I think maybe the UK did or the world, right? There's this spirit of, right, we've got to get through this guys and let's have it. 2021 things are opening up, change is happening, absolute radical, almost impossible breakthroughs in medical science have meant we might all be okay. And do we all believe it?
Do we really, in our hearts? There is a poignancy to it, and a tragedy. We've lost people and friends and seen things that are scary. And I also think there's a bittersweet energy, certainly in London and in the UK, which is, yeah, there's a jubilance around, yeah, we're going to go out in the streets again and we're all going to be together. But there's also this strange reticence of, we've hunkered down. We've never recognized family and tribe so much. We've never looked each other in the eyes so much, and really just had to be okay with each other or alone. And I think that with all of that comes some other stuff.
So I think it's mixed. I think hope is one thing when everything's bad, it's a very powerful force. As the reality of hope starts to break, I think there's all sorts of uncertainty. I hope that people are seeing brighter futures and the return to employment, the return to financial gain and all of those other things. I want to recognize that. I just think in the middle of that is a strange... There is a strange maudlin vibe happening, which I think is odd. I don't think it's as obvious as, let's all get back out there, put it that way.
Charles: (08:28)
You know that I'm interested in the personal journey that people go through and how that affects their leadership. And I don't want to pry, and I don't want to put something out there that you're not comfortable with, but to the extent you're willing to share, you were personally hit badly by COVID. I mean, you got sick and you were hospitalized. How has that changed your perspective about what's important? Has it changed your perspective about what you do from a work standpoint and how you lead?
Nils Leonard: (08:51)
Yeah, for sure. So, I hadn't been ill. I'm lucky enough to have my parents, as is my wife and our family. Right? And I say all this, because really, we've not had to look anything as large as mortality in the eye properly at all. And so, we all got ill and my oxygen drops and I actually weirdly felt fine, but my oxygen dropped and all the warnings are, get yourself to hospital if it goes low. So it got low. And I went in and when you have to put on a hospital gown, things change. And I'm there on my phone, WhatsApping people, telling them to send me cuts of an edit and all that, but I'm looking in the mirror at a bloke in a hospital gown.
And so, yeah, I had a bit of a cry up and was like, "Fuck, okay." And didn't know what to do with that. And thought to myself, "Jesus." And I'm in a ward and I'm sat opposite three other guys and then, well, and that was really, really, really scary, really scary. And in loads of ways. You suddenly aren't in the theory of anything anymore, and you're hearing people talk to their wives and their parents and you're watching these doctors who you're looking at and you know that they've seen people die. Right?
And you're like, "Fuck, okay, this is real." And so, how did it impact? Well, it massively. In some ways, obviously it brought back the realization of family, but that hadn't gone missing in a strange way. I think I'd seen that throughout this period, but it just brought back all the classic stuff, Charles, like luck and humility.
And I was incredibly, incredibly grateful. They gave me some steroids and I don't remember this conversation because I think I was maybe off my tits a little bit, but I called a few people and was telling them how overjoyed I was that I work with them, like a fucking idiot. And I did a bit of that, but it was, yeah, it's a load of that going on. And I mean, being really honest, man, I mean, we deal with a lot of campaigns that deal with the issues of our time, be that mental health or other ones. And it brought back how real that stuff is. That's not crap for case studies and ITV had taught us that with the work we've done around mental health. You see the reality of that work.
So, it made it very real. Uncommon’s always felt very real though, Charles, it's my company. I think if I were back at Grey or leaders of companies that aren't theirs, all I would say is, there is a moment where you believe it's yours or you lead it like it's yours, but it's not the same, you know? And, you're sat looking and you can see people are all invested in the same thing. So, yeah, it's on a knife edge all that, when you don't feel well.
Charles: (11:40)
Well, and especially to your point, when it's that stark and that real and you suddenly realize this could all end very differently.
Nils Leonard: (11:47)
Yeah, yeah. I think you do. So how many of us really think about all that? You know? We don't really. I wonder if I stay so busy that maybe I don't want to look at it and all those things get raised. That's probably true of a lot of leaders, a lot of busy people. Probably true, that we can say what we want to say, but do we drive ourselves like that because there's other stuff we maybe don't want to look at? Probably.
Charles: (12:11)
Yeah. A psychoanalyst friend of mine once posited to me that he thought every successful leader was actually dealing with a severe childhood trauma, very much for the reason that you've described and that what they were actually doing was deflecting energy away from having to confront and deal with that or trying to put that right in some fashion. So I don't know that I would say every single one, but I'm sure there is some aspect of that, that resonates with me, for sure.
Nils Leonard: (12:35)
Here's a great exercise, you should try it. I don't want to tell you the things that are in mine, but any period in your life, look at the things you've taken a screen grab of in your phone during that particular period. So, go back over your photos. That's a really interesting exercise, right? Because I usually have a mix of yeah, family photos, things I've decided to snap, quotes I've seen on the internet, that entire period. Right? Who the fuck am I in that period? Because you read some of that stuff. I've got quotes like, "death twitches my ear, liberty says, I'm coming." I'm like, what the fuck? Where was my head in that moment? Right? So that tells you everything you need to know, put it that way.
Charles: (13:13)
How did the people respond to you that you reached out to, in that moment, in that drug induced moment?
Nils Leonard: (13:20)
Beautifully, I was off my tits. I mean I've... No, no, no. I mean, lovely. I think some people would... Look, man, I think the truth is much more rational and brilliant people than me were more scared than me earlier than me because they knew what it was. I think I went into kind of going, "I'll be all right." And then was suddenly hit with a moment of fear. Not like stood, looking at myself in this mirror on my phone. Whereas, the moment I told a few people that I've got to go in for a night, they were like worried and scared and brilliantly supportive.
There was a family friend of ours who works with people in palliative. She's in palliative care. So she's around this a lot. And she was incredible. She was honestly incredible. Her name's Ruth. And she called me at almost every other hour, sending me texts. And I'll tell you what you need in those times is just, I didn't know I needed it, it's just the truth though. And the lay down of how shit's going to go.
Well, certainly I needed that because otherwise you're lost and you're just left with your own head, and of course your fears, much more your fears than your hopes in those moments. And Ruth was calling me, right? "This is how it's going to go. This is what they do. This is what this drug does. If your oxygen falls below here, you're going to end up here. That's okay, because there's still a level below that."
And it was the bleakest fucking picture. But weirdly I was like, "Oh, well, I don't have it that bad." It's like when someone goes, "Oh, you've only lost a leg." Well, you only lost a leg, yep? And it was like one of those, it was like, "Okay, Nils, you're here, so chill out. You're not here." And in a strange way, hearing all of the dark ways it could get worse, made me feel better. It's very odd.
Charles: (15:01)
I think it's absolutely true. And through a different lens, I've always believed that context was absolutely critical to leading. But I think context is actually critical to life because I think for the very reasons you've just described, knowing where you are in relationship to what it could be or where you'd like to be, is just the most enormously empowering reality you can live in. I mean, and it allows us to make better decisions. And I think you're right. It allows us to talk us through our darkest moments. It's really extraordinary when you don't know. That feeling of being lost, is just terrifying.
Nils Leonard: (15:30)
It's horrendous. But what a wonderful gift it is as well, to be able to not only, like the truth, right? What a powerful, powerful thing. Everybody talks about it, but how often can we tell the truth in a way that is that clear, that candid, that inspiring? Even in our jobs, right? When you're talking about having to lose somebody or when you're hiring somebody, all that stuff. I just thought it was such a powerful thing.
Charles: (15:58)
I have to say, it's the part of my work that takes the longest to get to, that relationship where the trust is so complete that you are able to actually tell the person everything they need to, hopefully empathetically, hopefully supportively, but in a way that they can hear it. And when that moment happens, you suddenly realize, okay, now we can really do some stuff that's going to be good here.
Nils Leonard: (16:18)
Yeah. I think that's right. Talk a lot about candor at Uncommon. It's a similar thing. The ability to be able to say something possibly negative without involving ego. It's hard. It's a skill.
Charles: (16:28)
What do you think are the lessons that are going to stick with us coming out of this year? How do you think leadership is changing?
Nils Leonard: (16:35)
I think mine's still changing.. I think everybody will look to finding, creating, or recognizing something within their company that can keep them going in moments like this. I'd love to believe that and you can call it purpose or fire or all those other things. But I think that that will become powerful now because it's not theory anymore. People are going to need that to move forward, I believe.
And so they're going to look for that more and they're going to understand that, I think that was the difference in this period between companies that really mattered and companies that didn't. I think we're going to recognize there's a limit to the amount of yoga classes and bake sales and what they can do to truly lift spirits.
My experience of that at Uncommon is you've got to be around people for sure, but an 8:00 AM yoga class every morning is not going to tell everybody it's cool. What's going to tell everybody it's cool is you continuing to keep them busy, prolific, moving forwards, so the ability within any crisis or any moment to not give up on people's careers.
And then I think the biggest one for me, which I'm still learning, is it's a miracle that you keep going in a situation like this. Let's just say that and recognize it for a second. It's super hard. But of course, what goes missing are our vision, our genuine... Those big long-term plans, those things that felt audacious and brilliant to talk about with your legs crossed outside a wine bar, they all went completely missing. And, whether you liked it or not, everybody started focusing on... there was an Adidas running ad. Don't know if you ever remember it, it was just a road. And it had just to the lamppost, just to the car, just to the whatever.
And it started to feel like that, which is if we can just make it to September, if we can just get this, if we can... And of course that removes any ability for innovation or pivoting or all that other stuff. I was giving a talk to everyone at Uncommon. We call it Uncommon sense. And various people from our company just speak on stuff. I was talking about art direction. My background is design, as you know, and one thing I got to was this thing that I realized might have gone a bit missing in general, but certainly in this period has gone missing, which is, there are some people, right, who live like they work. So, they embody their work in the way they live, the books they read, the cafes they drink at.
So most commonly it's like music, right? The way they dress, the vision they epitomize. That is... The best of us do that. The best of us are these characters, right? And advertising, ironically, I would argue is more full of those people. Art definitely has them. Peter Saville was one of those in my mind, the designer. He wasn't just a great designer. He had lived this experience. That's so hard to do when you can't fucking go anywhere.
How do you live the experience of an artist? How do you... And I know it sounds incredibly soft, doesn't it? And kind of, well, what use is that when... Well actually, it's massive. The ability to not live like others, to live unconventionally, to read unconventionally, to be around weirdos, that's incredibly hard to do in this period. And I actually just think that's one of the things that I've found most interesting is watching people who still managed to live on conventionally in this period has been really interesting. And the fight for that.
Charles: (19:53)
I think weaving both of those points together. One of the things that's always struck me that it's been obvious to me is that the most talented people, more than anything else, want to make a difference. And I think the ability to make a difference is so connected to what you've just described, which is the ability for them to be exposed to unusual thinking, provocative new ideas, different ways to see the world. And when we're all constrained to a five by three inch screen and the four walls in which we live largely for what now? 14 months and counting, that becomes incredibly challenging. And I think coming out of this, we're going to see a myriad of different kind of responses.
I said this to somebody last week and talking to you today makes me think this is even more true. This has felt, we've all talked about the fact, we've all shared the same experience, except we've all had completely different versions of the same experience. My version of this, while identical to yours, is also completely different to yours. It's really remarkable actually how we are going to have to start to spread this apart and stretch this out and understand that your version of COVID and your family's version of COVID, while exactly the same in its construct at a superficial level, is entirely different than my family’s version of COVID.
Nils Leonard: (21:02)
You frame something that we'd been talking about earlier in the studio, which is, if you think about the totems in our lives that express what we want from the world; I think that the Google search bar is one of those. And I would argue that maybe we're putting the same words into it and we're all thinking of something else. So, I just thought that was interesting you landed on the same thing because I think this summer, this year, we're all going to be putting the same words in there, like holiday. But we're all going to have all sorts of juicy, weird stuff under those words that we all want from the world. Does the world owe us something? Definitely.
Is there going to be some righteous indignation about self and my time and all that? Yeah. Loads, probably. I tell you what I think we're going to experience a bit of is different stages. So you know that frustration people have when they are through something and have gone somewhere in their head and then, you meet someone and they're going through what you went through four months later. And that's frustrating and annoying to you. I think there's going to be people at different stages of recovery. I call it recovery, but also just mean progress.
And so I think it's going to be mixed and messy. And I think there's going to be people saluting the heavens for stuff that I think some people are going to be like, "Well, what are you on about? I pivoted, I launched new businesses."
There's two guys in Brighton selling kebabs from their kitchen window, man. They reinvented their lives. Absolutely smashing it, chicken heart kebabs for 14 quid a go, out of their kitchen window. You know? So I think there's going to be... I think it's going to be a mess, man, a really beautiful mess and I think that's amazing. Like I had no idea how we're all going to feel. You know? I don't know. It makes me just think that there's going to be some amazing things, that it's going to be a really interesting, really interesting time.
Charles: (22:49)
And how will you reconstitute the company in terms of coming back in, staying out, there's all these conversations happening now, what are you guys thinking?
Nils Leonard: (22:57)
Yeah, well, no, we're being very open. We've always been very fluid. Our model's always been kind of open in that way, but we are a making studio. We're not an ad agency in that sense. We have photographic capability, making capabilities. So the making part, the part where you need to collaborate very closely has been very difficult. So people are already going in for key moments, on a very sparse thing. And we're going to grow that as we go, particularly around moments where we do need to be together. So, end of a design project, collaborative editing moments, things like that.
We're also into a lot of other ventures. We're producing our first feature, which has been interesting. Now, if you look at the nature of productions and not just ad productions, but movie feature productions, they've been managing for much longer than us to still create a business and still run a business. So there's loads of learnings there. Those guys are an example, I think, of what I mean when I say that people are going to be further down the line than others. They're going to be like, "What are you talking about, man? We didn't stop making fucking movies. You've just made an ad, well done, chill out." You know? And so I think there's a bit of that.
But we're trying to still diversify. So what's going to be interesting is looking at the new rules of that. We're doing a load more work, Charles, with brands in the States and Europe. This has completely thrown off the shackles of well we need boots on the ground. You know the old statement. We got to the final meeting, but we need boots on the ground. We don't need that anymore. So there's a load of work we've been doing that I think will change, you know?
And lastly, do you remember that stuff we used to have to get on a plane, fly to maybe Sweden or somewhere for an hour and a half meeting and then, fly back. I think that's dead or rather, I hope that it's dead. The idea that I would need to take two days out of my diary now to go for a two hour meeting somewhere. I'm really hoping that doesn't come back because that's a waste of time.
Charles: (24:46)
Yeah. A lot of people are talking about that. Do you think that's sustainable? I hope you're right. I really hope you're right.
Nils Leonard: (24:52)
I think it's going to be mixed. Being honest, no, is the short answer. And I'll tell you why, because even recently we had a meeting where we were appointed to a new piece of business, which was brilliant. And they said, "But the CEO wants you to go travel, go see him." And I was like, "No." And they were like, "Yeah, but it's a real... It's a big thing for him. And he really wants you guys to go." And I was like, "Well, no." We've done this whole thing on a screen. Why do I now need to go and risk all sorts of people's health to shake someone's hand?
And so, that, whether it's old school or new school, whatever you want to call it, that mentality, I think, is still going to be there where people are going to want to look each other in the eye. I also think, being really honest, man, there's a natural impetus for people to want to be together. Think about the formulative staff in the use of your career. Everything you really learn, not the trading over someone's shoulder. I mean the bits where you got somebody brilliant and senior with two glasses of wine in them, telling you the absolute truth. That stuff's gold.
Now, that only happens in person. So I think whether we like it or not, I think we're all going to do that. We're not going to know we are, but we're all going to start swimming toward each other.
Charles: (26:06)
The dynamics of human magnetism. Is there anything you look back on in the last year and regret?
Nils Leonard: (26:13)
Wow. Yeah, I think I could have taken more time to call people and just say, “How you doing?”. I've worked with some brilliant people and patient people and wise people, but I think I could have just done a bit more of that. I could rationalize it to myself, that I was pushing for progress. And that was ultimately what we all look for. And, as a company, did we get through it? Well more than that, but I think there are just periods of a really shit and very, very hard work and very hard work on top of all this is borderline impossible, I would argue. So I think I could have done that a bit more.
No, other than that, you know what? I'm really proud of what we've done and how we've kept going. And it's been very tough. So yeah, I wonder if there's going to be a bit where everyone breathes out and some people won't take another breath. I mean that as companies.
I wonder if there's going to be a bit where the adrenaline of this moment, like any moment, any fight… in my fear for Uncommon now is we all go, "Oh, through that?" It's like, no, we're not. That's the game. You know what I mean? And not the panic energy or any of that stuff. I just mean there's a ferocity that I think we've certainly picked up that I've adored, you know? And, I think we're on a level and I think a little bit of me maybe selfishly adores that.
And I think we've got to watch that. I think there'll be an interesting period where it's like, "Well, we all deserve a good break." I remember once in the past having this conversation and some people will listen to this and be like, "Oh my God, no, you didn't." We had this conversation where we were getting more new business than we could possibly have. This is in a different life. And we said, "Oh, should we close the doors for a bit?" In inverted commerce, "Should we shut the doors for a bit?" That's fucking suicide. Never shut the doors for a bit, ever. Have a word with yourself, widen the doors, deepen the corridor, get more people in and make the most of those opportunities. Choose more wisely for sure, but never shut the doors because reopening the doors is fucking tough.
And, I just look at this and go, there's a bit of me going, the speed we're running at, the lessons we've learned, we probably shouldn't exhale and get fat toward the end of the year is how I feel.
Charles: (28:34)
Yeah, I think that's so true. I know that when we were building our film editing company, Chris, my business partner, and my wife had a sticky on her phone, which was a Terence Conran quote, which was very simple. "Stay humble and nervous." And I always thought that, every time I walked into her office, I looked at that, and it just reframed my whole perspective about where we were and what we needed to do next. And I do think the question about where do companies and where do leaders get their next burst of adrenaline from is going to be really challenging.
What do you know now that you didn't know a year ago?
Nils Leonard: (29:06)
I now believe that our positioning and our purpose is powerful. I thought it was before, I now believe it. Concretely, like I could articulate to absolutely anybody, even people outside of our industry, why having a purpose and believing in one is important catalyst for getting through life. And I'm like, I just believe that to my core. So I think that's kind of compelling.
I know that the team I have are excellent. I think everyone has a plan until you get punched in the face, that whole thing. I think everyone has a crew until you get punched in the face. And then, you see the ones that come through, and you see, I think there's a lot of talk as well of rock stars or brilliant people or whatever, but brilliant people are the ones who just get it.
Charles, I remember having conversations… like the people at Uncommon, man, when it's your business and you're asking people to do things like talk about their pay or painting a future for them where you might not be able to pay them because you have to have those conversations because you don't know what's in front of you. Their reaction is everything and at that point, you ask yourself who works for who, right? And I remember those conversations and everybody at Uncommon was just unequivocally behind it and was soulful and got it and were wise enough to have these conversations in the most brilliant ways. Now, we've come through it and in a good way, and I won't go into the details, but it's like those moments are really trying. In loads of ways, not just, will they be okay? How they react tells you everything about the culture you built, you know? And I realize that the people I have, I'm really, really, really lucky to work with, you know?
Charles: (30:50)
What have you learned about yourself?
Nils Leonard: (30:56)
I’ll try not to sound like a prick, that I might die one day. Real stuff, I guess. Yeah. Family, time, how precious it all is, how precious health is. I'd ignored those things. I'm reasonably young, it's gone all right. I've not been involved in a car crash or anything. I took a lot of shit for granted, I think, which I don't now. I've gone grayer. I look at a photo of me a year ago, I certainly have. I think I've learned, I've always viewed my energy and that whole thing as a benefit and a super power and all that stuff. And I try to listen more and I take more time when I speak. And you learn that from brilliant people. You only learn that from brilliant people when you see it in action and I've been lucky enough as well to surround myself with a couple of people recently over the course of this period where you see that wisdom in action and that's really inspiring.
So to slow it down a bit, to be more concrete, be more thought through, to say less. And I think our work is doing that too. I think we make a lot of work, but I think it's got more pointed and more sincere, I'd like to think.
Charles: (32:12)
Nils, it's always a pleasure talking to you. I want to thank you so much for coming on again today and I wish you and your family good health and good luck going forward.
Nils Leonard: (32:21)
Mate, thank you so much. And it's always great to talk to you, dude. I said it earlier, it's like kind of weirdly coming home. I think we've managed to speak at almost the key junctures of all of this. So just thanks a lot for taking the time and hope people enjoy it.
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