Neil Waller of Whalar Group
What's the ‘this’ in your business?
"FEARLESS CREATIVE LEADERSHIP" PODCAST - TRANSCRIPT
Episode 281: Neil Waller
Here's a question. What's the ‘this’ in your business?
Hello, I'm Charles Day and welcome to Fearless Creative Leadership, now in audio and video.
Here we explore how people in all walks of life, from business leaders, to artists, to athletes, unlock creativity and innovation in themselves and in the people around them. And in the process, how they move the world forward.
This episode's guest is Neil Waller. Neil's the Co-Founder and Co-CEO of Whalar Group. They're a global creator company. Whalar have done as much as anyone, and more than most, to catalyze the creator economy. And as you'll hear, it was inspired by a conversation with and an unforgettable provocation from Sir John Hegarty. But behind their success lies a characteristic that I find is often underappreciated and therefore in short supply, among most creative leaders. Commitment.
“How do we increase our rate of learning such that we get the signal and we improve from there? And I think the stuff has to be balanced, but it's that notion of this is what we're doing and we're going to make sure we get the learnings and if we need to change the path, we'll change the path. But like, I think that's the faster route than it being sporadic or undefined or no one's really willing to push for fear of it not working or getting told off in some way.”
I've mentioned before on this podcast that we've developed a diagnostic tool that can tell, is your company deliberately unlocking creativity or just hoping that it shows up? One of the gaps that shows up over and over again is a leader's commitment to the company's goals.
Companies and leaders say one thing and then often do another. But when you find leaders that are truly committed to building a business that delivers world class creative thinking and answers, then how fast they can do that suddenly becomes an incredibly valuable conversation
To create is to learn. And the faster we can do both, the better your business and the world becomes.
So what's the ‘this’ in your business? And how committed are you to making it happen?
Here's Neil Waller.
Charles (02:25)
Neil, welcome to Fearless. Thank you so much for coming on the show.
Neil Waller (02:26):
My absolutely pleasure. Thank you for having me.
Charles (02:27):
When did creativity first show up in your life? When are you first conscious of creativity as a force in the world?
Neil Waller (02:33):
I love that question. I think, you know, ironically late in the process of things, where I didn't realize that it had been a part of what I'd been doing and what my co-founder and I had been doing for a long time. So, you know, I think this is quite a nice flex actually in a way, although it's not meant to be, it was through Sir John Hegarty of BBH fame who I got to meet in 2016 when we had, you know, pretty much two months into launching our current company. And I was speaking at an event in London, the Business of Creativity, no, what was it? It was a fashion event of some kind, and he was speaking. And we then met in the green room and had, having heard each other speak. And I didn't truly until that time realize the kind of creative endeavor that I was on and the impact that creativity had on the world and the impact and opportunities these creators in kind of democratizing creativity, as well. So I didn't even truly realize that I had known much about marketing and advertising. You know, I'd been an entrepreneur building businesses, and of course, if you can't communicate what you are doing, if you can't reach audiences with it, then it's not going to be a very good business. And so we had learned a lot, just without realizing it.
Charles (03:56):
How did you express yourself growing up? What were your medium of choice? Your media of choice, I think I should say.
Neil Waller (04:01):
I was definitely always entrepreneurially driven. Like, I was the kid that was trying to launch little business endeavors at one point. I think that's actually a funny story along the lines of me putting a sign up outside our house offering to do people's laundry. But I was trying to get my sister to then (laugh) do it and outsource work to her.
And then I was big into sports, tennis, football, rugby, you know, team games like that, you know, that term, you know, what is it the, the Phil Knight, you know, if you've got a body, you are an athlete. I think what was interesting is I never considered myself a creative individual. And in truth, to this day still at times, don't because I just respect the craft of creativity that so many do. But just in frameworks of thinking and seeing opportunities and things like that, that kind of has given me a realization that, actually there are many different types of creative outlooks that perhaps weren't obvious initially to me.
Charles (05:06):
To that point, do you think we need to reframe re…what I'm looking for, redefine how we think about creativity? Because I think that this, you are the second person in the last week who's come on the podcast, who clearly is creative, I think by every definition, and said to me, I don't think I am, or I think other people are more so. I mean, it's such a valuable quality, isn't it? And characteristic it feels like we should be better at being able to help people understand that creativity is a multifaceted, multi expressive capacity that humans have. And we should not be maybe quite so either reserved or shy about proclaiming that we have it as well, if it, even if it doesn't show up as art on the walls or music in the ears or any other of the forms that we typically associate with being “creative”.
Neil Waller (05:53):
I think in short, yes, it's also interesting because it's one of those things with labels like that, like, perhaps you're not able or shouldn't give the label to yourself, if you know what I mean. It's more in the eye of the beholder. But yes, I think, ultimately, you know, in that sense is the definition of creativity about a curiosity and an innovative nature to things. Being interested in finding new ways of doing things, asking the question, why? And looking for new ways and you know, coming up with, I mean they often say like in business rooms, like, find me a creative solve to this. That's not a creative outlook of an art thing, but it's like, find me a different approach to this. Get more creative in your thinking. And so, yeah, I think that's a very fair comment, and actually perhaps is something that is even more valuable now to people to understand that given we live at a time of a rapid changing landscape of just society tools, technology, everything around us, is the core DNA of understanding creativity and how to unlock that in yourself even better, perhaps more of a important thing than ever before.
Charles (07:05):
You recognized earlier than almost everybody, and a really compelling way that this construct, this concept of there being a creator economy, that this was actually, there were actually a group of people out there that are making stuff that had more value than perhaps even they perceived. What was your first instinct or recognition that this group of people existed and they could be brought together in such a powerful way?
Neil Waller (07:29):
You know, I'm still close enough to that journey - we started nine and a half years ago - to not have, I think the rose-tinted glasses that you can get later on. There was no genius spark in myself and my co-founder that saw that before anyone else. We were in the right time at the right place with the right level of curiosity to build. And then the opportunities unfolded in front of us, and we chose to walk that path, and build towards it, and chose to, like, look and listen, and then respond with things that we thought would help grow it. You know, nine and a half years in, I couldn't have dreamt of what the creator economy is labeled and looks like today, and what its future potential is. And if I'm honest, when I meet most entrepreneurs, I think that's how most things started with them.
You kind of have to have a naivety about it, because if you wait for all the answers to be clear, the opportunity's probably not there anymore. You probably don't have a particularly interesting insight in it. And so I'm going to be honest, through a number of things that we'd done throughout our career, we just saw an opportunity, we felt like we had an interesting take on it, and we built from that step. And it's been one step after at a time. I do think, and you know, it was a lot of what Sir John Hegarty gave us, because he gave us this mission of liberating the voice. So he actually elevated creativity in what we did in a way that we didn't know, and we didn't know the advertising ecosystem. So we've certainly had the benefit of a, I think a longer term view than most people take things.
And I still think we embody that now, where it's like, you're trying to take lots of incremental steps that are going to grow you further. I actually often describe our business as like a snowball rolling down a hill. It started off small and in each roll, the surface area is increasing, and you are therefore picking up more snow. And of course, sometimes it decreases and sometimes it stumbles on a rock, but in essence, it's rolling down a hill and it's cumulatively getting bigger, to the place where it's like, wow, on each role now, we're able to achieve so much. But it has just been actually this cumulative and consistent roll over time that has made the difference as opposed to one spark of genius or one lucky moment. I suspect it's the way most things go. I'm sure there's some people that, like, do just get those absolute genius moments and have those change. But I think generally speaking, things, like, were a lot more incrementality and consistency than it looks from the outside, when you've actually built it inside.
Charles (10:10):
When you talk about seeing the opportunity earlier on, nine and a half years ago, what was the opportunity that you identified?
Neil Waller (10:16):
Well, so we had our own direct consumer watch brand that in 2015 became the top selling fashion and apparel brand on Shopify. And what we had learned was that influencers back then, creators were the most powerful marketing channel we had at our disposal. We were able to connect to audiences from throughout the globe. We were able to get perspectives on things. They were our current customers and our prospective customers. And essentially through that experience, we had seen the power that it had had. The flashy part of the story is the prize for being the top selling fashion and power brand on Shopify that year was a week on Necker Island with the founding team of Shopify and Sir Richard Branson, and other entrepreneurs from other categories. So that was a insane week. But what was interesting, from the winners of other categories, was learning the impact that influencers and creators had had on their business.
And so literally the day we landed back in the UK from Necker Island, is the official incorporation date at Company's House of Whalar. And so it was seeing that this thing that had disproportionately worked well for us had also been consistent in the other winners. That there was probably an opportunity here to build something. And it was really like, the initial build was, how do we do it better? How do we streamline? How do we make this work better for both us as a brand owner and as well for the creators and their experience in working with brands? And that was the genesis 1st of October 2015, and then we launched the business in March 2016.
Charles (12:04):
How do you distinguish between creators and influencers? The terms get used all the time these days, and I think in some cases interchangeably when they're not really interchangeable, right?
Neil Waller (12:13):
It's a great question. To be honest, they can be interchangeable, and they can also be viewed as not being interchangeable. And I don't think there is a legal standard terminology with it. And so I think it's on your point of view. I would think what people would say is that an influencer is somebody that has a celebrity, that has influence over an audience. And a creator is someone that has built a media or entertainment business channel endeavor through which they have influence over an audience.
But those lines are very blurred because, you know, I think the… if you say ‘influencer’, probably the name that comes to mind for most people is Kim Kardashian. But that is a business, that is a media and entertainment business. There are more billionaires in the Kardashian family, self-made, than many other families. So I'm not sure whether kind of lines cross over.
I think it's more that influencer got some sort of bad connotations with it, whether you think fairly or unfairly so is a kind of a whole different conversation. I'm sort of of the view that, when did it become a negative thing to have influence? It's how you then use it, but what a incredibly positive thing to be able to have over people. Teachers have influence. Entertainment, Hollywood has influence. So I feel like it slightly got negatively routed. I think the thing about the term creator is it feels a little bit more respectful of the creative craft and the endeavor of what they do. And I think it's more reflective as a whole. But yeah, personally, I think the term ‘influencer’ is slightly unfairly viewed.
Charles (14:00):
And maybe it becomes semantics after a while. But it strikes me listening to you that maybe the way for me to think about it anyway, is that you can be a creator. I mean, I guess by your definition I am, because this show is a media platform. So I am, and I have influence as a result of the show, but I don't see myself as an influencer. I'm not overtly trying to make somebody buy something or purchase something or show something. So I think maybe it's possible to be a creator without being an influencer, but it's hard to imagine you can be an influencer without being a creator.
Neil Waller (14:30):
Yeah, I think that's fair. And look, also, there's just an element of, by the way, which is understandable, things need labels so people can understand them better. My big thing right now is, I think the stat is 40% of all online content consumption is spent on creator-led, produced content. At what point is that not just part of the traditional media?
A journalist that leaves a traditional news publication and becomes a Substack publisher is still a columnist, a journalist, a podcast. This could have been an interview on a TV channel back in the day, a TV channel focused on creativity. But this is the medium through which it's done now. Why does it have to have a different label? I always have this list that I keep that is 20 creators in different niches from science and technology to adrenaline, to food, to finance, that are creating 20 to 30 minute episodes that for me are no different from a documentary entertainment on TV.
But we like to call them a creator, and the label made sense. Now the label becomes a little bit at the stage where it more puts them in a box and keeps budgets away. Because I think the other stats are 40% of online content consumption and then less than 4% of digital ad spend, as well. And it's sort of like, because it's seen as this different form, but it really isn't now. And again, at what percent of audience attention does it become mainstream? This year for the first time, three creators and their shows are up for Emmys.
You know, and I remember when Netflix started winning some awards, it was a real kind of game changing moment. Or I think the other stat, YouTube in the US is consumed on the home TV more than any other device, more than phones, more than tablets, the home TV. And on the home TV, YouTube has a 9.6% share of watch time. I think it was Netflix was 7.2, and Amazon Prime was 3.4.
You know, for me it's… okay, Whalar Group is a creator economy company today. Do I get to rebrand at some stage to, we're an entertainment company, and our creators, entertainers, and media companies, at what point does that just become part of the lexology? Or is it just when you say ‘creator’ in the same way you think about a streamer now? I don't think you think about Netflix any different from how you might think about other things in terms of… you know, a show White Lotus exists on HBO, but had it existed on Netflix, it would've had the same level of success and be viewed in the same way. I think we'll get to that place with the creator economy.
Charles (17:29):
It's such a great point, Neil. And arguably the inverse has become true, because if you see something is on Netflix or HBO, you're actually drawn to it because you don't have to go, you don't have to watch commercials, right? You've paid for the privilege of not watching advertising, which is I think kind of an endemic problem to the advertising industry that people are willing to spend literally billions of dollars, pounds, yen, a year to avoid looking at your output as an industry, but that's a separate conversation. But I think it's such a good reference point that we do get caught up on labels and we do get hung up on, we allow ourselves to behave in old ways because we think about stuff through old names and yes, why isn't Whalar an entertainment company? It makes perfect sense. I was thinking about your stats. I'm sure my YouTube percentage on the home TV is higher than 10%. I'm sure it is. And I'm sure you're also right that it's the thing I probably watch more than anything else. So it's a compelling reference point to say, let's stop not only, we're not living in the past, but let's stop calling things by the way we used to call them in the past because it, it's, it's limiting.
Neil Waller (18:31):
I'll give the counter, although it's not so much a counter, you know, we've been going nine and a half years. I remember nine and a half years being in a meeting with one CMO, who, it wasn't a conversation, Neil, why should I be working with influencers and creators, nine and a half years ago it was Neil, why should my brand invest in Instagram?
You know, we've come a long way in nine and a half years. And again, I think that that zoom-out context, it was unimaginable for the creator economy. Three creator shows are up for an Emmy right now. You know, creators are these media companies and entrepreneurs and it's a thriving, growing industry still in the early innings. And you know, that delta between 4% share of digital ad spend and 40% of attention, that's only going to close and create more opportunities as a result. So it's an interesting one.
I remember at that time because of our experience with our own brand and the success we'd had with the watch brand, Instagram were kind of like, and Facebook were having us go out and do case studies for them and interviews. And what I remember from that time is they said, please don't use the word ‘social media’, because we don't want to be in the social media jail from a budgetary and advertising perspective. What's interesting is I don't think that jail is thought about in the same way now.
So it's not that it's not called social media, and it didn't take a rebrand or a change of the label, it's just the label became common knowledge and commonly accepted. So I don't know whether it is Whalar becomes an entertainment company or the creator economy just gets to that same place. That will be the interesting piece of what does it take to get there. But I'm always kind of reminded of that and that, like, now you wouldn't think twice, albeit arguably there's still not the level of spend on social media relative to what it drives compared to other things. So maybe it would've been better to be with the rebrand route, but nine and a half years, it's changed and grown so much. It's sort of like, it also doesn't feel right to complain about it (laugh), but I'm always going to want more and I'm always going to advocate for it, but it's trending in the right direction.
Charles (20:42):
Yeah, it's becoming our nature to complain, hasn't it? We're all used to everything happening so quickly that we're much too quick, to your point to jump on the criticism bandwagon.
Neil Waller (20:49):
I don’t know who's the reference of this, but I do love the quote, you overestimate what you can achieve in a year, but underestimate what you can achieve in whatever is the other timeframe, 10 years. And I truly think that's, you know, the zoom-out context of this thing. I don’t know if you, you know, I just enjoyed watching Rory McElroy win The Masters and I love what his caddy said to him. You know, after he fluffed the putt on 18th that would've won it, and you know, it was a putt that he would've made nine times out of 10. His caddy said, “Well, pal, we would've taken this on Monday.”
Charles (21:24):
Yeah, it was a great, it was such a great piece of coaching, wasn't it?
Neil Waller (21:28):
Context, right?
Charles (21:29):
Brilliant. Yeah, it was a brilliant piece of coaching.
Neil Waller (21:31):
Zoom-out context of where you've got to and where you come from that in the frustrations of where you want to be in the minute and how you'd like things to be better and faster. The zoom-out context is so valuable to these things, and I think gets lost a lot.
Charles (21:45):
What are the truths that you've begun to identify or have identified about people that are most successful in the creator economy? What makes somebody a successful creator?
Neil Waller (21:54):
That's a great question. I think my interesting answer and I think it's that, you know, I'm a little bit predisposed to always try and make something not feel so incredibly new that it's scary or hard to accomplish. And it goes back to, to John's, principles remain, practices change. I think the reality is, it's the same thing that makes anyone successful in most endeavors. A good idea, resilience, consistency. You need a few lucky breaks in all of this, as well. And it's kind of like, the same answer would be, what makes entrepreneurs successful, what makes business ideas successful? And resilience and pivoting and trying new things and testing. And you know, I had the opportunity to speak at the United Nations a few weekends ago to 1700 students from across the world and was asked, like, what are the things that I thought should be taught?
And I said, curiosity, resilience, communication and teamwork. I think those are four fundamentals. They're probably fundamentals you could have said a long time ago. But those are the fundamentals that will help drive people forward to success. And I think the creators that represent that, and I think the interesting thing around the creator economy is that, over the last few years at the bleeding edge of it, creators have made the leap from understanding that they're a creator that was a solopreneur, to now being an entrepreneur and a business owner of a media and a creative endeavor. Which by the way, I don't think takes away from it. Someone that started a film, you know, you don't go, that JJ Abrams sold out because he created this company Bad Robot from just being an individual at the start. But it's understanding that this is a business now, this is an entrepreneur, and how you build a good organization within that, I think that's a challenging thing to do. But I don't think it's any more challenging for creators than anyone else. So I think it's the same principles that can be applied to so many walks of life, that maybe brings us back to where we started, which is, what's the definition of being creative in creativity? Maybe broader than I was first thinking at the start of this school.
Charles (24:06):
Do you see people reach a point of inflection where they go from producing content that satisfies them and rewards them on an emotional basis, on a personal basis, it's an expression of who they are, and then suddenly realizing or realizing at some point this could be and perhaps should be the thing that I do full-time and I need to get serious about that? Do you see, as you are paying attention to the creator marketplace, are you conscious of those changes happening, those moments of transition happening?
Neil Waller (24:34):
You know, again, to take it to other fields, it's why some brilliant musicians never enter the professional musician sphere. Because they go, that's not the life I want. That's not what I want to create. I'm happy with it being this outlook for me. And I think those same truths and principles apply to the creator economy, which is why out of all of the breadth, the people that could be in the creator economy, it is going to be a few small percentage that make that breakthrough way. But I think it's the same as someone that's talented at tennis or football, do you know what I mean? Like, it's going to require a level of dedication and journey and building that takes it to something else, if you want it to become a professional endeavor. But yes, certainly see that with creators. And I think what you've seen over the years is, there are… there is far more education and information and stories told by creators of the journey they've been on, for others to hear from and learn about, and perhaps therefore go into with a little less naivety. Although I do think naivety is a super weapon to decide to do things, because if you knew everything, would you do it? I mean, probably yes, because most entrepreneurial people are slightly mad. But naivety is a helpful weapon. But there is a lot more visibility than understanding around that. And there is a lot more sort of viability of it as a career path. You know, there's now a venture fund in the US called Slow Ventures that is investing in creators, you know, so the environment is changing with that.
Charles (26:06):
How are they deciding who to invest in? What are the qualities or characteristics they're looking for?
Neil Waller (26:11):
It's a great question. So I know the team there pretty well. We have the Lighthouse, which is our college campus space in Venice, and they're actually located inside it. And it is no different a criteria from what they would base on having previously invested in entrepreneurs with business. It is fundamentally, do I think this individual can make it? Are they going to be a good leader? Can they build a team? Do they have the drive, the desire? Do they have the resilience? You know, it's about the same principles, backing people.
Charles (26:42):
I've always thought about the creator economy as individuals showing up and putting stuff out into the world, and building audiences, and gaining influence as a result of that. When does that morph into, they need to be part of a team, they need to put a team around them. What does that look like when they reach that moment?
Neil Waller (27:00):
Ah, it's happening quicker and quicker because the revenue opportunities available. And I think if you go back to the origins of the creator economy, you had bloggers, then you had Instagramers, YouTubers, TikTokers, podcasters. I think what you have now is people are multi-platform, multi-format publishers, which is about achieving two things. It's about achieving more sustainability through diversity of being able to reach audiences. You know, you're on rented ground, it's the algorithms that control what you reach. So you want to be able to reach people in multiple formats.
And it's also about being able to tell stories through different formats in different ways for the community. With that and the different monetization opportunities, becomes the possibility of having a team and building something around it. And by the way, not every creator has to be a leader. Like, every team can have a different makeup. I think it's often about, like, finding that right manager to support you and then finding that right first hire. And it's not a one size fits all.
You know, some creators will be like, I actually want to hire a CEO for this business that's going to be the right person, and I'm the creative director. In some instances, the creator’s the CEO. And I don't want to overblow it. I mean you do get to place now where you've got creators that can have teams of 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 people building really big businesses and media companies. But you know, you can also be very successful just as a solopreneur creator. But I think the path more is, these are media and entertainment companies, and they're going to build businesses. But again, I go back to, is that any different from Spielberg and JJ Abrams and Jimmy Iovine and, you know, it all started off somewhere with one person and then they go on the path.
Charles (28:46):
And within that context of creators suddenly adding teams around them, do you see situations where the creator is no longer the face of the content of the output? I mean, does that ever happen? Do they, are they building something that is beyond simply their expression of an thought or an idea or a concept or a position or a point of view?
Neil Waller (29:07):
Good question. Mostly no, given the nature of it. What you do see is them starting to introduce new talent, and build a stable of talent, and introduce people to other characters, and collaborate in those ways. And I do think that's going to be more a part of the future to be honest with you.
And I think most famously done by Mr. Beast. You know, there's a steady roster of four or five creators that he works very closely with that are in his content, that have their own brands, that become part of that empire. And I also think you'll see, like, as even if they've got a team, a solo publisher, meaning it's just that creator's viewpoint, whether there's a team around or not, I think you'll see them start to come together in collectives and create the next networks of some kind. You know, I think it's a next natural evolution of it. And it's about defining the right ownership model to work with that.
I mean, I'll put this out there publicly now because we've been saying it a lot sort of privately in conversations. The next thing we are wanting to do at the Whalar Group, we want to go get MTV and recreate MTV for the creator generation and bring creators into that project as co-owners and co-creators, and like, bring a brand like that back for what it represented. But with creators, where you don't end up in this echo chamber of just one creator, societally, that's not necessarily good either. You want people to have some adjacencies of topics and interests. And I do think that's going to be an interesting opportunity next, that we see in the creator economy, because again, principles remain, practices change. It's the same thing. It's nothing new.
Charles (30:45):
So this is the ultimate democratization of creative talent that we're living with and through and in.
Neil Waller (30:51):
It's a change in the ownership model, right? Like, they own their IP, they don't own the land that they're distributing it through, but they're building different ways of building direct communications with the audience. And like, at the end of the day, it's a way to reach people. But they are… one of my favorite creators is called Cleo Abrams. She was a journalist at Vox Media in the US, and you know, had a great career there. But she left and she started a channel, it's on YouTube, well, it's across all platforms, but Cleo Abrams is her handle. I think she's got five and a half million subscribers right now. She's been at it for two or three years. And her channel is called Huge If True. And she talks about scientific advancements that are huge for society if they turn out to be true.
She went to CERN in Switzerland to talk about the Large Hadron Collider. She went to Google's Quantum Computing Lab. These are 20 to 30 minute episodes that are getting millions of views. And she owns the IP, she owns all of that. Or I'm a golfer, so I'm a fan of Good, Good Golf. Like they have two hour long videos that have millions of views that are playing golf competitions and doing interviews. And Phil Mickelson's been on it, John Ram's been on it, Sergio Garcia's been on it, interviewing and launching their channels. They have a range of clubs with Callaway. They put on their own golf tournament. You know, it's a democratization of creativity. Going back to the mission that Sir John gave us, liberating the creative voice. It's a liberation of creative voices.
Charles (32:22):
And in the process, is providing, and I mean I don't want to over index on this, but it does seem to me that, on the most profound human level, right, I mean this is an incredibly fulfilling experience for people to go through, to discover in many cases that they have a creative voice that they didn't recognize before, that they have a way to get that out in the world, to get validation for that, to get feedback on that. I mean, this podcast is eight years old and certainly wouldn't have been, wouldn't have been around for eight years if some people hadn't come up to me nicely, kindly, at various points and said, I listened to your podcast. It really helps. So it, I mean it really does provide a fundamental human truth, doesn't it? Which is, we all have something worth saying.
Neil Waller (33:04):
Two things. One is also, you know, we're talking about shiny examples in the ones that I've listed off that are, you know, exist at the top end. What I think is also often missed, and there's sometimes some talk about the creator, middle class, big non-existent. And those tend to be conversations that come out of London, New York and LA. Cities I love, cities I spend a lot of time in, and I live in LA.
But they completely miss that. An individual that lives in Arkansas or Middlesborough, covering both sides of the pond, earning 50 grand a year through being a creator, telling their story. Like, yeah, that's not the millions that the people I'm talking about. But that's a profession, that's an income. They live a great livelihood from that. They're doing what they enjoy, and they're serving a community with value. And who knows, maybe it could keep growing into something even bigger, but you know, it only tends to be in these, you know, big cultural city hubs where they're like, that's not a career.
I'm kind of like, are you allowed to swear on this? I don't know, (laugh), I'm kind of like, f*ck you, what do you know? Like to these people, they're, like, this is my choice and I love it and I live a great life for me. You stay in your expensive cities where you think that stupidly. That's number one.
There is a societal piece that's interesting with all of this obviously, where, you know, yes, everyone has a creative voice. Was it Picasso that said everyone's an artist, but not everyone should exhibit? These voices have a disproportionate impact on things. You look at the US elections, some of them, [inaudible] did the podcast elections, you know, staying apolitical. But you know, it, there is a societal impact to this and you know, where do the lines of responsibility lie with this stuff, and free speech, and who should have a voice and how do you vet things, you know? But then I think media is, traditional media is more controlled than it often claims to be or not to be, if you know what I mean. So I think there are some societal things that we have to be mindful of as well. And then you throw AI into the mix, what's real, what's not real. The pros massively outweigh the cons, but I think it's important to also be mindful of these things and think about how to solve them the right ways.
Charles (35:22):
What is the content that draws audiences? What have you learned over the years of studying this and being involved in this and helping to shape this that allows you to identify early on, this has got something to it that's going to attract an audience to it. What are those qualities?
Neil Waller (35:37):
The reason it's hard to answer, although maybe in this exists the answer, so I don’t know if you've ever come across a creator called Christopher Byrne. He's 84 years old and every day on TikTok he reads a piece of poetry. And he has an affiliate link to an Amazon store selling poetry books. Not his poetry books, just recommending poetry books. His channel’s Byrne Poet. And you know, I'm just looking now, he's got 263K followers, 2.3 million likes. He's got videos with, you know, thousands to millions of views. He found a niche, found an audience, spoke authentically to what he was passionate about, and people discovered it. There's a YouTube called Chris Ramsey that's a magician that I love following. And I think it just speaks to your interest. The thing John Hegarty said to us is, and this was like, nine and a half years ago, creators are the modern day magazine publishers.
You’ve got the big lifestyle ones, and you've got the niche publications speaking on certain topics. There's space for everyone and it's what fits your interests. And I think I go back to consistency, like, Christopher Byrne is posting every day a piece of poetry. You know, just consistently doing something. Consistency is often what breeds out. you know, getting to the point of success in the end and many things. And again, I go back to the Whalar Group story and the snowball, it's cumulative. It doesn't tend to be these rock moments or even if you do have a virality moment, like, if you don't remain consistent, it can then drift away. So I think the nice thing about this is like, it's sort of, you know, have a point of view on something and share that.
Charles (37:15):
Are there things that definitely don't work?
Neil Waller (37:17):
I don't know that there are things that I would say definitely don't work topic-wise or thematically. My obvious answer is saying, being inconsistent. But to give something new and helpful. It doesn't work repurposing content across all platforms. You need to build native, specific to each platform, and the audiences and the tools that mediums that those platforms represent. We've seen that time and time again through these things and you just get massive drop off if you're just trying to repurpose things. You know, building for specific platforms I think is key.
I'm sure to a degree, but I bet you there are examples where even what I'm about to say isn't true and people have succeeded, but I'm pretty sure if the definition of starting is that you want to be famous and rich, probably not going to get there, because I don't think you'll remain consistent and push through, through those hard times.
Again, it goes to musicians, it's been ages. You know, I love that, I remember seeing an interview with Ed Sheeran who looks like an overnight success and on the interview he is like, you, I have been grafting for a long time and by the way, here's my first songs. Listen to how sh*t, these are (laugh). I had to like run the tap and get the dirty water out to get to clean water. Like, it takes time. And so I think you've got to get into it for the right reason.
And it can be that I'm getting into it because I know there's a business opportunity there that I hope could be big. But I'm not getting into it just to try and be rich and famous. I'm getting into it because this is what I want to do.
Again, I bet there are some examples and there will always be exceptions where people have actually succeeded with that first thing as the aim. But I would say generally speaking, it's got to be for the right reason that you, that this is what you want to be passionate about doing and telling and see it for that reason.
Charles (39:11):
This might be the most profoundly self-indulgent question I've ever asked in—
Neil Waller (39:14):
Okay.
Charles (39:15):
—Eight years. But let me ask it anyway. So if you were me and you had built a podcast over eight years, the only ambition of which is to help people inform people and give people a way to think about themselves, their leadership, how they show up in the world, what would you do now to take this forward?
Neil Waller (39:35):
Two things, and apologies if you're already doing any of these, but two things. One, I would find some mechanic of IRL, some experiential element of what you can do to take this into real life. People like meeting in person. People like the community, you have a community. How can you take that forward to some experiential thing? So that'll be point one.
Second, do you come across over your time or do people come to you with interesting tools, learning resources, whatever it may be, that can help fuel people to do more of that? Can you get involved in some way and help market those, co-brand things, and things like that? And like, you know, all the things I'm saying, what's important is, they're monetization opportunities for you, but they're all rooted in providing value to your audience and providing something that they would enjoy that would help them.
And the third is, is there some kind of, I want to say super fan, that might sound a bit too ethereal, but you know, is there some, like, subset of your community that you can create some kind of membership around, that gives previews of things, gives a higher level of information, gives workshops, gives group conversations, some kind of thing where you can take those, and again, it's about providing value to them.
And I think what's been interesting with creators on this journey that are often very happy to do advertising related deals that make sense, but quite concerned over the idea of monetizing through their audience, because they feel like, does that cross a line and their audience, like, help get them to where they are? What I've seen every time when it's done respectfully, when it's done based on those values, the audience celebrates it and love it and want you to succeed and do more and build a bigger business and have bigger impact, as a result. As long as you're staying true to the values, and you believe behind what you're doing, I think that's the way to achieve those things.
Charles (41:41):
Thank you for that. That's incredibly helpful. And what I heard you saying there, regardless of who's asking the question, is that you have to be focused on what is valuable to the audience, and what is respectful of the audience. And if you start from that place, you're probably going to be fine.
Neil Waller (41:57):
So there's a creator that we manage called Ashley Alexander. She's a first generation Asian American, she's been a YouTuber for six years now. She has, I think, like, one and a half million subscribers on YouTube. So decent, but by no means, like, are we talking a mega mega star.
And she's a matcha tea aficionado, and wanted to be an entrepreneur, and she also see that many matcha tea brands are all male-owned. And so she set about on this journey to build her own matcha tea company, and she took her audience on that journey for a year. Within her audience, she created a group called the Matcha Mob that people opted into, and she got 69,000 people in the Matcha Mob. And she was like, I'm in Japan now, what do you think of this logo? Do you like this pouch or this package? Like, they were taken on the journey with her, helping her understand what were the decisions, like, as a focus group with the audience, and also then, like, making them more invested in what she was doing. And she was leveraging that superpower. When she launched it sold out in three minutes of the first drop. She did a pop-up store in New York, 1500 people came to it. In the first three months, it was seven figures of income. Not 1 cent spent on marketing. Your tool is the audience. That's your advantage, like, leverage them, ask them, take them on the journey. Ultimately, if you're trying to deliver value for them, and you might have some great insights just through the knowledge anyway, but ask them, find out.
Charles (43:27):
That's a great case study and I'm thrilled by the fact that somebody's been successful with based on their enthusiasm and passion for tea.
I'm conscious of your time. Let me just touch from a couple of minutes on your leadership and how you have developed and evolved your leadership of this remarkable business that you've built. What have you learned about unlocking creativity and the people around you more intimately?
Neil Waller (43:51):
It's a journey, not a destination. You know, it's not like a certificate of achievement. And I'm still learning every day in this. I think I go back to what I said about what I would say to students. Curiosity, resilience, communication skills, and teamwork. You’ve got to constantly work on those things. I think the things that I have learnt, a ship that goes off course by 1% doesn't look like it's going off course until it's f*cking far off course. And if it's a big ship, it takes a long time to get back and turn back. The importance of conveying the values that you want to represent, and the places you are trying to get to, so that everyone can row in the same direction, and Whalar Group is the ninth company that my co-founder and I started. We were college dropouts, went to University of Bath, did three years, and then dropped out.
We've learnt a hell of a lot along the way. I don't think we ever understood the point I'm making as much as we've understood since starting Whalar and making it. Like, it's a team effort, and getting everyone rowing in the same direction, and making it so that you are not a bottleneck. And so that people are empowered to make decisions and through what you've communicated and embodied in the company, they're more likely to make those decisions that keep you on course.
And make decisions quickly, because speed is an important piece in all of this. Like, that is probably the most important component of it all. I mean, I want to be clear, we screw up plenty of times at this, like, the notion that it's should ever all be perfect is also a fallacy in it. It's about trying to do better every day and get it right far more times than you get it wrong.
Not having fear of failure. I love the Barack Obama quote, sometimes you've got to be 51% certain and that has to be enough to make a decision. I'm like, the president of the United States can say that? Then I'm good with a company, like, saying that type of thing. So I don't know, it's a journey.
I'm fortunate to have a co-founder. I couldn't imagine doing it without a co-founder. Like, just so that, you know, we kind of operate with the philosophy, and I think people can embody this in teams, by the way. We operate with the philosophy, one plus one equals three. And what we know to be true is, it's not always one plus one. It might even be zero plus two, sometimes. It might be 0.5 plus 1.5, or the other way round. What we know is it always equals three. And so it's also, like, you know, how the teams work together and work on all of that stuff. But yeah, I don't think I'm the expert on this topic, still learning, still working away.
Charles (46:39):
It is a lifetime’s work. I think your point about leadership alignment, I think, is really critical, and I think often misunderstood and at least misrepresented. We've developed a diagnostic tool that allows us to measure how companies are unlocking creativity within their own people, and what they're doing inadvertently to get in the way. And one of the biggest issues that we find is that leaders and leadership teams are very rarely aligned in the ways that they think they are. That if you start asking them interesting questions, what you discover is that they're not actually focused on the same things, and the waste of potential and opportunity that that generates is enormous. And I think what I've seen now increasingly is that, when you come across a company where the leaders are connected and really in sync in terms of what they're trying to achieve and what matters to them and how they define success, that is where you see the greatest amounts of original thinking, creativity, innovation being unleashed on a day-to-day, hour to hour basis, in fact.
Neil Waller (47:34):
I mean look, it gets talked about a lot as kind of coined over here, ‘founder mode’ and there's pros and cons. But you know, ultimately, I think what it represents is, we are doing this everyone, this is what we're doing. It may not be right and we'll get the learning quickly in the signal and we'll pivot, but this is what we're doing. And at least that is action and momentum and learning.
And it's an interesting topic given the US right now. But I got to go to SpaceX a while ago and I got to meet with, like, Employee 10 at SpaceX who had worked with Elon forever there. He's like, we are truly focused on rate of learning, like, how do we increase our rate of learning such that we get the signal and we improve from there? And it's with the intent, and that there's whole flip sides to this, as well. And I think this stuff has to be balanced, but it's that notion of this is what we're doing and we're going to make sure we get the learnings and if we need to change the path, we'll change the path. But like, I think that's the faster route then it being sporadic or undefined or no one's really willing to push for fear of it not working or getting told off in some way. You know, but it's kind of like the founder story.
Charles (48:54):
It really is. If you could go back and sit down with your 25-year-old self, what would you tell them? What have you learned that you'd want them to know?
Neil Waller (49:02):
I’ve kind of got two answers for this. Like (laugh), maybe one's a bit too romantic. You know that movie, Sliding Doors?
Charles (49:11):
Yeah.
Neil Waller (49:11):
Like, don't f*cking say anything (laugh), you're on your journey. Like, what variables do you change?
I think I also, there's a Tom Hanks quote, and I don't think he's the original, but it was quoted at, like, The Actors Round Table thing and he said, you're on top of the world, it will pass. You're on the bottom of the world, this too will pass. It's the notion of, like, enjoy the journey and don't get impacted by the highs or lows too much. Which is also like emotionally like a bit sad (laugh), in a way, but it's also the way to deal with things and go through it, and that kind of resilience muscle, which is to say like, I'm very happy with the journey. So I don't know that there is much I would go back and change.
Caveat with that, there is so much I would say because there are so many opportunities missed, screw-ups made, things that could have been done. But it's sort of like, I don't know, if you reflect and dwell on that too much. You know, I go back to Rory McElroy's caddy saying, we would've taken this on Monday, pal. Maybe it's a bit too much romantic. I don’t know, maybe it's too blinded, but I'm kind of like, not a lot.
Charles (50:24):
There are three things I think that I've identified that have driven your success from a leadership standpoint. So let me throw these at you and see whether these resonate.
One is, I'm struck by your peripheral vision, your willingness and ability to really see out of the corner of your eye about things that are beginning to come into view before other people see them, and your interest. And you've used the word curiosity a number of times, but I think your curiosity about that. And you have to be willing to be able to see sideways, I think, in many of these jobs, and certainly the one that you have.
I think two is your ability to take all of that, which is a vast amount of information, possibility, and filter it down into some really specific, actionable, intentioned areas of focus. And I think that's a real asset to be able to combine those two.
And then third, I think, is your sense of optimism and possibility, that we don't need to be constrained by the way that things have been done. That these things are moving and evolving, and we can be participants in that journey. We can help to shape that journey. But there is real progress to be had if we're willing to allow ourselves to see the potential of what lies ahead. How do those three resonate?
Neil Waller (51:37):
I mean they're all very nice comments. So (laugh), you know, I don't want to remark on them too much. These are things that you know, you can't really say of yourself. I think that the… two things, first of all, I think the missing ingredient from all of that, and I, I remember Sir John saying this to James, my co-founder and I. He said, you boys are wonderfully naïve; never lose that. You know, we don't get fazed by things, we don't get scared by things. We feel like without hopefully bordering into arrogance, we feel like we could accomplish anything if we just set our minds to it and try and attack it one step at a time by what we've done and achieved. And I think, you know, we don't rely on having the plan and all the answers or even the experience to feel like we can go and take something on and try.
And obviously, like, there's scales to doing that. There's approaches, like, you don't, how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time, kind of mindset. But I do think sort of like, naivety, meant in a nice way is a (laugh) or not nice, whatever, but is an important characteristic on it.
And then I think there's, like, the time horizons by which we think. So, when James and I are asked and we sort of define our roles, we define them more by timelines than function, and obviously within that we have functions, but I sort of talk about it like, the way we think about it, our team deliver the zero to 12 month vision. They deliver what's on the roadmap for this year. There's still plenty of innovation and decisions within that, given how quickly things change. But they're very focused on, like, what we say at the start of the year, where we want to get to at the end of the year and working that out.
I kind of exist in the six to 18 month window of, like, bridging the two worlds, enough eye of innovation on the future, but how do we scale things? James, my co-founder lives in the 24 months out. Like, what is on that future horizon that we need to be learning and exploring? And I think it's kind of in that way of like, thinking in this time horizon. People have always said, it's interesting when I say that because they don't hear it from other people. And it's just that way that we kind of like look at this journey that we're on and what we're trying to achieve, and again, ladders up to a bigger vision. Not one we've necessarily got all the answers on, but it's kind of like being prepared for different phases of the journey.
Charles (53:56):
That is as powerful and as strong a piece of self-awareness as I think I have heard in a very long time, and explains a great deal about why both of you are successful in what you do, and why I think this company will go from strength to strength. I thank you very much today. This has been a huge education for me as well, actually, and I really appreciate that, and your advice back to me. So thank you so much for coming on the show, Neil, it's been an absolute pleasure.
Neil Waller (54:23):
Not at all. I loved every minute of the conversation. Thanks, Charles.
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If you'd like to know more about our work with the leaders of highly creative and innovative businesses, go to fearlesscreativeleadership.com. There, you'll also find the audio and the transcript of every episode. Or, go to our YouTube channel for the video of our most recent conversations.
Fearless is produced by Podshop. Sarah Pardoe is the show's producer and handles all guest inquiries. You can reach her at sarah@fearlesscreativeleadership.com.
And thanks for listening.
