Jim Stengel
WHO DO YOU TRUST?
"FEARLESS CREATIVE LEADERSHIP" PODCAST - TRANSCRIPT
Episode 275: Jim Stengel
Here's a question. Who do you trust?
I'm Charles Day. I believe that leadership offers us the greatest opportunity of our lives to make a difference. I'm asked to help leaders discover what they're capable of and then to maximize their impact. Welcome to the intersection of strategy and humanity.
This episode's conversation is with Jim Stengel. Jim is the former CMO of P&G, and he's now a hugely successful author, speaker, coach, consultant, and advisor. He's also the host of the brilliant CMO Podcast.
In our conversation, Jim and I started to lay the framework for how we think that leadership is going to have to evolve as the confidence in most institutions, including government, continues to deteriorate.
“I think there are some studies, you have probably seen them, as well, trust in so many things is down, and the trust in business, actually, has held up pretty well. And I do feel like we have a really important role to play now, and that is to be positive forces for our customers and our employees.”
Being creative on demand is perhaps one of the hardest things that we ask any human being to do. Because every act of creativity requires an emotional leap by its creator.
That's why the best creative thinking usually comes when you have confidence in yourself and trust in the environment around you.
Now, it's impossible for any of us to predict with any certainty what the next four years are going to look like. What's reasonable to expect is that they will not be “normal.” So in these circumstances, it's very likely that some of the people around you are going to feel a lot less safe than they have before. As leaders, creating an environment that people can trust, regardless of what's going on in the world, will be more critical than ever before. And that starts with giving people reasons to trust you.
Establishing trust is a simple equation. Say what you mean, then do what you say, and do it consistently.
So what do you stand for? And what will you stand for when the chips are down, and the pressure is on? Why should people trust you?
Get that right, and I promise you, you'll change your corner of the world for everyone around you.
Here's Jim Stengel.
[00:02:33] Jim Stengel: Charles, so good to see you. Always good to see you.
[00:02:36] Charles: I was looking back at the first time you and I spoke on this podcast, 2017. It's hard to imagine that was seven years ago. I'm going to ask you the most profoundly unfair question in the world. What's changed since 2017?
[00:02:50] Jim Stengel: Oh, my. Well, I mean, Charles, AI, of course. I just did a show, I did an episode for my show with who I consider to be about the best expert in the world on AI and marketing. It's a professor at Northwestern, ex-Google, senior executive, Jim Losinski. And it was a fabulous show, but he basically said, this is transformational.
It's like the internet again, but even deeper. It'll affect everyone, everywhere, in every job, in every part of their life. So obviously AI has changed. And I feel that… well, we had a weird world in 2017. It was right after Trump was elected, the US was polarized.
Populism was growing in other places. It's even more extreme now. And obviously these are deep issues. Truth, what we can believe, facts, the basis for democracy. So the social setting in which we are working, social, political, geopolitical setting, is way more complex, tricky, in many ways, sad. The wars that are happening. So, and I think it's affecting brands in terms of, where do we take a point of view? Where do we not? How do we react to our employees and our consumers when they're so divided?
So, this versus 2017, I think, is very different. On the personal side, hey, we were just talking about it before we started recording. Seven years older. And I have three granddaughters. Two granddaughters. One about to come.
So, delighted about that. That's an interesting phase in life, Charles. I don't know if you're there yet, but it makes you think…. I mean, I've always been intentional about how I spend my time. It takes it to a different level. Of course we did when we had children, but that was sort of, you know, forced.
You're living with them. They were babies. But with grandchildren, you want to be with them. It's very, it's magical. And again, their innocence, their curiosity, their humor. It's… so it makes me think even more about how I'm spending my time.
[00:05:08] Charles: You have always been intentioned. I think it was one of the things that I noted and commented on when we spoke the first time. As the world has changed, I want to come back to, actually, all the topics you raised, I think, with things that I noted down. But, as you look at the world today, as you experience the world today, how are you deciding to use your time? What has become more obvious to you, in terms of what's important?
[00:05:31] Jim Stengel: Well, I… you know, I left P&G 15 years ago, I started a consulting practice to learn more about purpose and to help others become more fulfilled, successful, happier by activating purpose in their lives and in their companies. And it's been a great run, great ride. I've been inside literally hundreds of companies, either talking about this, coaching, my team going in and helping them do it at scale. So that's how I began 15 years ago. But I have to say now, it’s… I'm a little bit more like… Ryan Reynolds is my metaphor right now. You know, he is involved in all sorts of things, kind of odd things, maybe, to the outsider. But his filter is what gives him energy, what he's interested in, what he loves doing.
And that is sort of my metaphor now. I'm still involved in consulting, of course, but I'm much more spending time and going deep with people and topics and issues that I learn and get energy from. So that's… so my life has changed a lot. I do more, I'm more into content now, obviously my podcast is one piece of it. We're looking at how we explode that, use that as a pillar and go different places as we speak. I still enjoy writing. And another part of my life that I love is, I've always enjoyed emerging companies and entrepreneurs, and the passion they bring and the insights they bring, and their outlook on life and business. So I'm part of a large fund now that is investing in emerging consumer companies.
So I'm meeting every week and looking at, we look at 450 categories. Kroger is part of this fund. So we have access to their database and their knowledge. I'm working with interesting people. It gives me energy. I learn. So that's much more my filter now, even than it was 15 years ago.
[00:07:33] Charles: What are you consciously not doing as much, or at all?
[00:07:38] Jim Stengel: I'm doing less consulting myself, almost none. And that was not the case 15 years ago. I'm doing less speaking. I had some years where I was going into 80 venues and speaking. That's a lot. And I don't do that near— I do it sometimes.
[00:07:56] Charles: I ask the question about what you do less of because I find many leaders really struggle with that. They get very caught up in the day-to-day, the immediate after, the immediate dynamic. They're obviously, there's a lot of stuff they have to react to. And I think people really struggle in those positions to figure out what's really important to them. They get task-oriented and very, very short term in their thinking. I'm sure you see that, as well.
[00:08:22] Jim Stengel: Oh, yeah. I mean, it's the activity culture, especially with all the choices we now have in marketing. I was interviewing someone yesterday with a big CPG company. We talked about what's changed in the last decade, and she said, all the basics that we're trained on are still valid. You know, understanding your customer, what does your brand stand for, you know, how are you different, and how consumer-centric is your culture. But all the choices we now have to activate on those insights are seemingly endless. So you have to be even more, I think, decisive, intentional, consistent, and not jump around all the time. So I think that's really important.
I find also some basic habits of building time for reflection. I hear that from a lot of my guests. Build in, whether it's Dick's Sporting Goods, who I talked to their CMO a couple of weeks ago. The company closes every day from 12 to 1. No meetings. No nothing. Use it to think. Use it to take a walk. Use it to go play pickleball for 40 minutes with a colleague. But, step away. Step away. So I think, and I hear that as a theme with the CMOs I talk to, building in, calendaring reflection time.
And I do that in my own life. I'm a big… thinking about my, you know, I was trained by Steven Covey back, way back when he was emerging as a consultant. P&G was an early adopter of his philosophy. I still think about those principles every day. What are the roles I have in my life? What are my goals for each of those roles?
Am I spending adequate time on those roles, those various roles? What do I choose to do this week? What I choose not to do? I do annual thinking, annual planning. So I try to be very deliberate. And I do it in a social way. I bring in people who know me, my team, my agency that I work with. And we bounce things around.
In fact, just before this podcast, I was on a group call with a research company I admire a lot. It's a new one called Nonfiction. And I did something with them in New York last week, a case study on something they did with Frito Lay. And I just find them very inspiring. And so we were knocking around, what can we do together that gives us both energy?
So that's reflection time, right? You're stepping back. Thinking, is this someone or something I want to work with? And I think we all need to do that, whether you're the CMO of a giant company, or you're Jim Stengel with a small firm that's doing things that we love to do.
[00:11:10] Charles: And to your point, calendaring it is essential, because if you don't do that, it's not going to happen, right?
[00:11:14] Jim Stengel: No. No.
[00:11:17] Charles: Are you also… how far ahead are you thinking about where you want to get to? Who you want to be? The question I ask a lot of clients these days is, what do you want to find out about yourself? As part of a life journey. How far out do you go?
[00:11:33] Jim Stengel: Well, I think at this point in my career, I'm thinking an awful lot of, what else is there in my career?
What else do I want to do? And why do I keep doing this, Charles? You know, I have grandchildren now, as we talked about. And so, I'm thinking an awful lot about, what else do I want to experience, achieve, learn about? Is there a moment where I take a very big step away, or step in a different direction?
And my criteria comes back to, am I doing something that feeds my energy and feeds my curiosity, and am I working with people that I want to be with? Am I feeling stress about stuff I don't want to be a part of? And I have to say my life now clicks all those boxes, right? And if I stepped away from it, I would miss it, and I would miss the people.
I would miss the feeling of helping someone or being part of something that turns into, you know, a beautiful thing. I was, I got a text yesterday from a CMO of a very large, one of the largest enterprises in the world, who I've been coaching and her team. And they met with the board, and they had a fabulous engagement with the board.
And it's going to take the brand in a renewed, wonderful direction. I love that 30 years ago. I still love that. So that's, and I'm at a different level, of course. I have a… my impact is different. I'm not in a company anymore, but I, to your question, I think about that every day, and I check myself against that every day, and I talk to my wife about it, you know.
And I've been able to balance, you know, we do make more time for things that we…. We took time in Croatia this summer with five other couples we love, after Cannes. And these are people that are meaningful to us, that we cherish. So I'm deliberately thinking about that part of my life, as well.
Who do I want to spend time with? And making sure that happens. And so in terms of achieving something, I mean, it's, to me, it's, as long as I'm getting energy and helping people out, and learning and enjoying life, you know, it's… but, you know, will that change? Yeah. I mean, I'm doing different things than I did 15 years, I'm doing different things than I did 5 years ago or 3 years ago. And that's good.
[00:14:24] Charles: Do you think about legacy?
[00:14:28] Jim Stengel: I do. I do. And I think that's, I think that's an important exercise. And I think it, I think of it in a way that isn't weird or morbid or narcissistic. I think about, do I, do the people I work with and touch and reach, will they remember the feeling of working together, and remember that this was a special part of our career, our life, our journey together?
That's what I want the impact to be. And at this point, Charles, you know, I'm senior, I'm getting a lot of input from people that I have worked with, you know, over the decades, coming around. I mean, the people who are leading P&G now were young when I was there. And to run into them, and to feel their energy, their appreciation, that's a wonderful feeling.
And honestly I feel I… and this, the podcast by the way, which you do one, as well, you've done one for, how long now, eight years? Mine's five years. My, you know, it's, I get into an intimate discussion with someone every week, as you do, and those keep coming around. I've expanded my network of, and I take them to places in the show, as you do, that are personal, intimate, revealing in many ways.
The biggest compliment I get from a guest is, you made me think about things I haven't thought about in a long time. You made me think of things that I want to talk to my spouse about, my partner, my team. And so obviously when you do that sort of thing, you're making an impact. You're leaving a legacy. And you're helping someone become a better, you know, better leader, better person.
[00:16:30] Charles: Yeah. I couldn't agree with you more. I feel all of that.
Where do you think purpose is on its journey? I mean, when you and I met, we met at Conscious Capitalism, I think, right after Obama many years ago had been elected. Where do you think purpose is on its journey?
[00:16:50] Jim Stengel: With all the crap that's in the news about ESG and all that, and I think that gets conflated with purpose. And all the attacks DE&I get is getting, at least in the U. S., but I think it's happening in other countries. I would have to say that you get inside companies, and you talk about how they're feeling about their brand, how they're positioning their brand, how they're thinking about their culture.
It's all about purpose. Some have backed off from using that word, but they're still doing it. So I would honestly say, and the data, I believe, supports this, versus 15 or 20 years ago. There are more brands who are thinking more deeply about the meaning of their brand, and how that comes to life with their consumers, their employees, other stakeholders, and are sticking with it.
And so I think it's weathering the storm. And I think… and by the way, I've always been of this mind. When you do it well, your business is healthier. And as long as we keep that in mind and keep that front and center, this isn't about directing your philanthropy a certain way, or cause marketing, or something to make us all feel good in a corporate meeting.
No, it's about a different and deeper meaning you're making in the lives of people, and you are rewarded when that happens. And I think that is happening more frequently with more companies than it was 15 years ago.
[00:18:26] Charles: And do you think every company has a purpose? Do you think this question is just digging deeply enough, or do you think there are some companies for whom they're just there to make money?
[00:18:36] Jim Stengel: I think there are some companies that are transactional. And there are some companies that have a purpose that a lot of us would think is maybe not good for the world. But a purpose doesn't have to be good for the world, you know, a purpose can be something different. It's a thought that unifies people.
So I think there are those that are transactional. But I feel like that's not terribly sustainable. If the companies that I have found who don't talk about purpose, who think it's not meaningful for them, it's not relevant for them, when you go into their employee base and you start talking to them, they're a bit lost, they're not sure what's important, they're putting their time in. They're not connected. I don't think they're bringing their best self or their best energy.
So I think when someone calls us and says, we'd like to go on the purpose journey, we kind of stop and say, why? What problem would this solve? And often it's about the engagement of their employees.
And when they focus on that, which obviously you want that in service of your customers, then good things happen. There is just no downside. And I say to a lot of leaders, you know, start with the conversation by pulling of some people together in your company to have coffee and just ask them, are we doing enough to make an impact on the lives of our customers?
Start there. And my guess is, you're not. And so as long as you keep the focus in that space, it's about better business. It's about a stronger organization. It's about people reaching their potential, believing in what they're doing, having conviction in their company. And purpose is a way to achieve that.
[00:20:36] Charles: The point you make about starting with, what is your consumer looking for, is one that's so obvious to say, but so easily overlooked in businesses. I've sat in any number of leadership team meetings and listened for 30 minutes, and then stop them and said, can I ask you a question? If your most valuable consumer was sitting in this room, how much of what you just talked about would they care about at all? The answer would be none.
And again, I think it goes back to that reference point of leaders becoming so focused on what's right in front of them, and lacking the willingness to step back and say, okay, hold on a second. Whether it's looking at myself and my life and what matters to me, or whether it's looking at what matters to the consumer. I mean, maybe this is an oversimplification, this is an oversimplification, but you can live a pretty healthy, you can live a pretty wonderful life if you focus on those two questions. What really matters to me and what really matters to my consumer?
[00:21:28] Jim Stengel: Absolutely, absolutely. It clarifies things, it simplifies things, it helps you with priorities. And I think we have a big challenge with people deciding priorities now. I do a lot of leadership work, as you do, within companies, across companies. I do a lot of work with Deloitte on leadership. I do a lot of work at Kellogg, at the Cannes Festival, of course.
And we always survey our classes, interview them before we start. And one theme is fatigue. And it's a theme with leaders and a theme in their organizations. And when you start stripping that back, how do you solve that issue? And of course, hybrid work and COVID, it just all unleashed lots of things. But it usually comes down to choices. And are you focused on a few things that will make a difference, and not on the thousands of things that you could be doing that are not making a difference? And is that conveyed, communicated, rippled through your organization?
Because when people are tired, they're usually doing too much with not a great sense of meaning. And with not a great connection to their colleagues and the consumer. So I really, really focus on, check your calendar, look at where you're spending your time. Is it in the right places? Are you focused on the right things? Do people know what you care about? And, hell, I just told a story to some group not too long ago about my time at P&G as CMO and that's old now. But you know, I did… the process I went through to focus on where I would spend my time as P&G CMO is still a helpful thought process for me, and it had a pretty good impact.
So this, I think, if your organizations are tired, my guess is you're not communicating what's really critical in galvanizing them around that.
[00:23:37] Charles: And the subject of calendar management - you and I actually talked about it seven years ago, but it is just as relevant and just as meaningful today.
[00:23:43] Jim Stengel: Even more so.
[00:23:44] Charles: Even more so, I think that's right. And you made the point back then that there was a process that you had recommended or had developed, whereby you felt you could free up 50 percent of the leader's time by helping them recognize where they were spending it or what was actually valuable. Is that still true from your perspective?
[00:23:59] Jim Stengel: At least. At least 50%. At least. Yes, at least. And it's such a liberating process to go through that.
[00:24:08] Charles: Yeah. I think leaders don't often realize how much influence they have, do they? And they spend time in a sort of a passive way and they allow their assistants to schedule their calendars and they don't really understand why they're in a meeting in the first place.
[00:24:20] Jim Stengel: Yeah. Tim Armstrong, you know, colleague of mine, a friend of mine, I knew him back at Google. I was on his board at AOL when it spun out from Time Warner. He had a great saying, don't let your inbox control your life. Let your outbox control your life. It's the same thought.
[00:24:38] Charles: Yeah, that's exactly right. You mentioned, obviously, the political environment in which we're all living. Within the context of this, where things that we all used to count on and rely on as being absolutely sacrosanct, right? They were absolutely foundational. The rule of law, truth, you mentioned, one of the things I wrote down. We would have different views, people would have different views of government, but overall the idea that government was there to service us and help us was kind of fundamentally believed. And I'm not sure that's true anymore, in certain parts of the population.
Within the context of all of that. What do we need from our leaders? What do we need from our business leaders?
[00:25:21] Jim Stengel: I think we need, we need to trust them, we need to hear from them, they need to be visible, we need to understand what direction the company is going in, we need to understand the values and principles of the company and how they're coming to life.
I think… there are some studies, you have probably seen them as well, trust in so many things is down and the trust in business, actually, has held up pretty well. And I do feel like we have a really important role to play now, and that is to be positive forces for our customers and our employees, and to be honest, and to do what we say we're doing, and to admit when we're not doing as well as we could be. Just people want that.
Authenticity's been a word we've knocked around for decades. It's still important. It's even more important. So, honesty, straightforwardness, authenticity, empathy, but with honesty. And I think that's… it's always been the profile of great leaders. I just think it's so much more needed today, because there are so many role models of leadership that are awful right now.
[00:26:44] Charles: Yeah. Unimaginably so, right? I mean—
[00:26:47] Jim Stengel: Unimaginably so.
[00:26:49] Charles: Yeah. We're sitting around with friends here this week, and talking about the fact, how did we get here? How did the truth become this thing that you debate? How did the kind of behavior that we're witnessing day after day, hour after hour become normalized, and accepted, and okay, and in some cases, aspirational? I mean, it's really confusing. I think on a really kind of basic human level.
[00:27:12] Jim Stengel: Been a confluence of a lot of things as we, as you know.
[00:27:15] Charles: And it's going to be a long path back to something that makes more sense, I think.
You mentioned earlier on the question I wanted, I was going to ask you anyway, which is, within all of that, how do leaders know, decide when to speak out, when to show up? It's so challenging.
[00:27:34] Jim Stengel: Well, I think you have to, you have to let your people know. We, you know, you can't stand up and talk about everything. You just can't. It's not possible. It's not right, even personally. You know, you're in business to create value for people who are buying your product or your employees.
You're creating an attractive place to work so that people can come and live a good life, earn money, and provide for those that they love and that are near and dear to them. So, in the context of that, every company competes in certain categories that offer certain benefits to people, and hires employees that want to be in those categories.
So I think anytime you choose to take a point of view on something, I think it has to be relevant and central to that. So if you're in the business of, you know, helping mothers with babies, then it probably would make sense to take a point of view about child hunger and child diseases, and things like that. I think if you took a point of view on something far afield from that, it would be a disconnect with your customers and your employees.
And it should be consistent with what you've always cared about. And so I think the company has to keep that in mind. And honor their history, their bedrock values, their principles, communicate those. So then when they speak up on something, and to be consistent about it, then I think your filter is easier.
I'm not saying it's easy. It's easier. And the other element I would add is, if you are going to take a point of view on something that will have some controversy, or that will have, just be ready for it, talk to your people about it, don't let them be surprised, and then to stick to it. You know, we… Bud Light, of course, has become the poster child for making missteps on this.
You know, I think, was it something they should have been involved with based on their category, their core customer? Maybe not. But then they weren't consistent in how they responded to it. If they were consistent with how they responded to it, it may have gone away. May have, I'm not saying it would have.
[00:30:01] Charles: How do you create the environment in that moment when everything is unleashing at you and you are literally being buried under a torrent of incoming, from inside and outside the company? How do you help leaders find the mental space, the emotional space, to be able to step back and say, okay, hold on I need to think this through for 30 minutes? I mean, in those situations 30 minutes feels like a lifetime, right?
[00:30:25] Jim Stengel: Yes, it does, it does. Well, I think the good news is, most of it doesn't reach that level.
There's stuff that comes up every day. I mean, if you're running a large company, now a small company, whatever, be ready for it. Stuff is going to come up. It just does. And if you're a large enterprise with lots of brands, with a global business, I'm not exaggerating. You'll have something every day. And so most of it blows over. 99.8% of it blows over. That's just the society we're in now. So you just have to be ready and in touch. A lot of companies have social groups, social rooms, where they're looking for what's trending. They know when something's hitting something, where they need to be a part of that conversation.
You need sort of your counsel of people inside, maybe outside your company, who are thinking about this with you. You think about the implications before you go, and once you go and make a call on something, be damn consistent about it. Waffling is the worst thing.
I mean, you know, I ask on my show, what brand people remember making an impact early in their life. Nike is the most frequently mentioned. We have others like Lego and so on. You know, they're a pretty good example of a company that has taken a stand on things that are relevant to their athletes, their consumers.
And they've held to it. They've been consistent. So I just tell, you know, be ready for it to happen, be prepared. You don't go out there alone. Talk to people who are thinking about this with you, inside and outside the company. If it's an industry issue, be sure that, you know, your competitive set is sort of the same mind.
And then be consistent.
[00:32:19] Charles: And the idea of having a personal sort of leadership advisory council around you is such a powerful idea that I think not many people really think all the way through. They’re casually formed at best for most people, and some cases not at all. Do you find that quasi formalizing that, at least in your own mind, that here are the four people and these are the roles?
[00:32:39] Jim Stengel: Oh, yeah, absolutely. Have it thought out in advance. And honestly to… oh gosh, you know, we did this when I was at P&G, so this is going way back. We would do crisis drills and we would have a fake crisis and we would sort of role play what we would all do. And I think that kind of preparation is even more important today.
[00:33:09] Charles: You touched on AI and, obviously, I mean, I did a series of podcasts in partnership with the Lions, leading up to Cannes this year, and talking to different people about AI. One of the things that struck me in all, not every conversation, but in many of the conversations I've had generally, not just on the podcast… I'm constantly finding people underestimating the impact and the power of this.
Are you seeing that, too?
[00:33:37] Jim Stengel: Yeah, I guess I would say yes to that, but I don't fault them. I think it… no, everyone knows it's here and it's important and most people are using it in some way. But I think it challenges our imagination to think about how profound this is, and I'm not sure everyone is taking that humility, or has that humility. We don't know where it's going.
And I study it, use it, listen to thought leaders, have people on my show to talk about it. And even the people who are most immersed in it are still learning about the possibilities. But I think, the show I did this week on my podcast with Jim Lesinski, he just breaks it down and makes it very pragmatic.
And he sees it as unbelievably transformational. But he basically says, you know, make five goals for yourself every month to learn about a new area, and do it. Do it, apply it in your life. And you'll learn about it. You'll see ideas and potential.
I had, we had a lot of AI case studies in Cannes this year in my program, because people are applying it now and not just talking about it. And I think an area that we all need to think more about is, the opportunities for AI to make us more efficient are there. They're easy to see. They're relatively easy to do. Although still, I think only 60% of companies are even using it for summarizing meetings and so on.
So there's still a lot of ways to go to make us more efficient. People aren't thinking enough about how to use it for innovation and ideation and growth and new ideas. And we did have some companies in Cannes this year talk, Coca Cola has done some interesting areas with leveraging AI for flavor development.
But I think that world is still largely untapped, and that's going to be really, really interesting.
[00:35:47] Charles: Do you think it gets to the point where it fundamentally changes the economic structure of the marketing communications industry? I mean, I've said this on the podcast before, but the industry is operating under one of the worst business models imaginable.
Let's sell original thinking by the hour, not for the value that it's creating in the world. And so by definition, to your point, AI is at the very least going to make the industry more efficient, because it's going to eliminate a whole bunch of tasks that agencies get paid a lot of money for.
[00:36:14] Jim Stengel: Yep.
[00:36:15] Charles: How does the industry restructure itself, if all of that just naturally progresses and evolves? How does the industry restructure its financial foundations?
[00:36:24] Jim Stengel: I don't know the answer to that, Charles. Honestly, I think, no, I don't know any of us do.
[00:36:30] Charles: Do you think it has to though, ultimately?
[00:36:32] Jim Stengel: I mean, look at how the internet restructured the economic model, and that's not nearly as profound as this is. So I don't think we know. Obviously, creativity is going to change. I think the whole agency world will be reshaped in every way. Media planning and buying, strategic planning and agencies.
And the infinite possibilities we will have on personalization, and reaching people, and content creation, solving problems. It's just profound. I mean, we're probably all going to have an agent who can speak for us. And brands will have agents. And we'll have our agent speaking to the brand agent. And so it's going to be, it's trippy, you know, it's really, really….
And so I don't, we're just going to have to, we're going to have to be agile and open-minded and see what others are doing, because there's going to be, everyone's innovating right now.
So I think, it's a great question. We're looking at the near-term things that we can do differently now. Fine. But yeah, I think the whole model will change. We're going to have, you know, what's happened in the last 10 years. We know the companies in… who have, in content/media, who have ruled the world. I don't know if that will be the case 10 years from now.
[00:38:20] Charles: Yeah. It'd be stunning if it was, in fact, right? I think we'd both be shocked if it was.
[00:38:25] Jim Stengel: Yeah.
[00:38:26] Charles: I just worry that the industry has a habit of being…. You and I have spent a ton of time in this industry and I think fundamentally love it and appreciate it. And then the human capacity for creativity is endlessly surprising and remarkable in so many ways.
But it has a reputation for being remarkably reactive and passive at a macro level, right? It allows to its own detriment, I think, market forces, I guess, for want of a better description, to play a role.
And it feels to me like there's an opportunity here for people to get together and proactively decide, look, the evidence is overwhelming at this point. At the very least it's going to do this and this and this, and we need to figure out, how do we build against that? Because the danger, I think, is that it just becomes an efficiency play. And then suddenly the opportunity to really build an industry that is sustainable, for the value proposition it provides, is going to be gone.
There's a, like, there's one, there's a once in a, not just a generation, but I think you're right. I mean, this is the internet on steroids, right?
And I'm always interested by people saying, well, you know, I tried whatever, whatever it was, this version of Midjourney, or this version of Sono, and it wasn't that great. And you think, wait a week, wait a week, right? It's going to be completely different in a week.
[00:39:42] Jim Stengel: Yeah. I think the companies, maybe the way to think of, companies with the characteristics of truly thinking about how they can power up creativity at a different level, and to apply that to brands, are the ones that are going to win.
And I think we don't know the answer to exactly how it's going to happen. But if this becomes, as you say, an efficiency game, I don't know if anyone will win and everyone will copy each other. But those that truly use AI to somehow differentiate themselves and the level of applied creativity they bring to brands and companies, I think will earn a price premium.
[00:40:25] Charles: I think that's true. I also think, and you touched on this earlier, as well, but I also think that the opportunity to redefine human creativity is sitting right, looking us right in the face.
[00:40:34] Jim Stengel: That's right.
[00:40:34] Charles: Because there are a lot of things we do in the name of creativity that are not.
[00:40:38] Jim Stengel: Yeah, yeah.
[00:40:40] Charles: And the ability to suddenly understand what we're capable of as a species, I think, is almost limitless. I mean, it's easy to get romantic about this and carried away, but I'm not sure I'm being either actually in this moment.
[00:40:52] Jim Stengel: Yeah. Yeah. And there are a million downsides, and we read about them, we listen to them, we ponder them. But that's been the case with every new technology forever. We'll have to deal with it. It's not a small issue, right? Governments aren't ready to do it. So on and so forth. So, but, there's tremendous optimism about some of the positives, and there's some dark scenarios. And I think we're just in the middle of that right now.
[00:41:21] Charles: I think that's right. If you look back 30 years ago, if you could talk to yourself 30 years ago, knowing what you know now, what would you tell him?
[00:41:33] Jim Stengel: Oh my. I think, probably follow my intuition more than I did. And be confident and proud about who I am. I think it's tough, and when you're a junior person at P&G, it is a tough, you know, it's a demanding culture. There was a type of person who was successful there. And so I think it's very databased. I just think, I think my intuition has never been wrong.
I don't think anyone's intuition is ever wrong. You just have to have the confidence to realize there's something in there that's bugging you, and you have to bring that out and understand it. So following intuition, being comfortable in your own skin and to work with people that give you an energy.
I don't think I've always done that. Obviously, when you're in a big company, you can't control everything. But you usually don't succeed if you're not working with people who you give energy to and they give energy to you.
[00:42:52] Charles: The question about being comfortable in your own skin, I think it's just fascinating. I interviewed Robbie Kaplan a couple of months ago. Robbie was E. Jean Carroll's lawyer, and beat Trump twice, and went to Mara Lago twice by herself to depose Trump. She argued… Crazy, right? She argued for and won the battle for gay marriage in front of the Supreme Court. And she talked about that.
And then, and despite all of these extraordinary accomplishments and achievements, and you look at her from the outside and you think, well, this is one of the most confident people I've ever met. I asked her the question, and she said she suffers from imposter syndrome to this day.
Has that ever afflicted you? Have you ever dealt with that?
[00:43:36] Jim Stengel: Every day. I mean, I talk to a lot of people about that. I think the first step is to acknowledge it and understand it's okay, right? In some ways, it's positive. Because you're… it keeps you curious, it keeps you humble, and it keeps you learning. So I think it can be debilitating, I get it, if you lose your confidence. But I think look at it as a positive signal that you have some adrenaline going, that you have headroom in terms of how you grow as a leader, and that you're acknowledging situations where you're being challenged.
So I think it's hard to be a senior person in a market now without some level of imposter syndrome. Because things are so, they've always been dynamic, but they're really dynamic now. And so I think just acknowledging it, not being afraid of it, don't duck it, don't let it erode your confidence.
It's, we're all dealing with it.
[00:44:48] Charles: And it's part of the life journey, right?
[00:44:50] Jim Stengel: Yeah, it is. It is.
[00:44:54] Charles: As you look at the future, what are you hopeful for?
[00:45:00] Jim Stengel: It's a cliché, I suppose, and I hear this from others over and over again, especially those who are working with students and young people. There come— the people that are in college, early in their career, they're pretty grounded. And they're pretty energetic about making a positive difference, and dissatisfied with the status quo, and low tolerance for meanness and arrogance and violence.
So I am hopeful, I guess, much as I was hopeful with the half generation before me, as they were emerging, we're just dissatisfied with how things were going politically and they create change, they create other implications, but they create a change. And I think this generation coming through has some of that energy.
You look at the attitudes of people under 30 now about a lot of the things we've been talking about, politics, strife, war, they don't want it. And I think they're going to vote that way. They're going to behave that way. And I think that's positive.
[00:46:21] Charles: Yeah, let's hope we can give them the opportunity to do something with it. Right?
[00:46:25] Jim Stengel: Yes. Yeah, we, right. Yeah, for sure. For sure. So that's a cliché, but I think it is real. And, you know, I spend a lot of time, obviously I have children, I spend time with their friends, I do a lot of work at universities. I just, you know, talk to a bunch of young people at Miami University in Ohio. The agencies have a lot of young people in them and talk to them. And I really feel it.
[00:46:53] Charles: I really want to thank you for coming back on. You strike me as being very much at peace, and you and I haven't had a chance to really sit down and talk like this for a while, but you strike me as very much at peace. And it feels to me, Jim, that that's very much the consequence of the level of intention and thought you've put into what it is that really matters to you.
And I think it's a lesson that we can all learn from and certainly many leaders can learn from. So I really want to thank you for coming back on.
[00:47:19] Jim Stengel: It's great to see you again, Charles. Thank you for the great, great chat.
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