Sir John Hegarty of Bartle Bogle Hegarty
Are you willing TO DARE?
"FEARLESS CREATIVE LEADERSHIP" PODCAST - TRANSCRIPT
Episode 261: Sir John Hegarty
Here's a question. Are you willing to dare? I'm Charles Day. I believe that leadership offers us the greatest opportunity of our lives to make a difference. I'm asked to help leaders discover what they're capable of, and then to maximize their impact. Welcome to the intersection of strategy and humanity.
This episode is the last in a series of conversations that I'm having in partnership with the Cannes Lion Festival of Creativity. For the weeks leading up to Cannes and during Cannes, we focused our study of leadership through a single lens. The impact of Artificial Intelligence on the Creative Industries.
Are we moving fast enough? Are we going far enough? Is this an opportunity to fundamentally redesign the creative industries? Or should we adjust and iterate, slowly and carefully? There are opportunities and risks around every corner.
This episode's guest is Sir John Hegarty. He's the Co-Founder of Bartle Bogle Hegarty and one of the most original thinkers of the last 40 plus years. Sir John is a reference point for an industry that has changed a lot, and also not very much over those four plus decades.
The through lines that mattered, then still matter today. Confident, disruptive thinking.
At a time when the future is waiting to be invented, like never before, Sir John's description of the atmosphere that leaders need to create is time tested. Only time will tell whether it is timeless.
“Ultimately, creativity is about confidence, the confidence to dare, to really go out there and try something very different as opposed to, well, I know this has been done before, so it'll be okay. I don't want okay. So you've got to create an atmosphere of fearlessness and the sense that there is no wrong answer, but there are just some that are better than others.”
Next week, we'll have a couple of bonus episodes before I wrap up the series, and give you my thoughts on the impact of AI on the creative industries, based on the conversations that I've been having. In the meantime, thanks for listening, and here is Sir John Hegarty.
Charles (02:18):
Sir John, welcome to Fearless. Thank you so much for coming on the show.
Sir John Hegarty (02:21):
My pleasure. Great to be here.
Charles (02:24):
This is going to be the final episode in the series that I've been doing in partnership with Cannes Lion, and we've been talking about the impact of AI on the creative industries. As a starting point, what do you think of the state of the creative industries today?
Sir John Hegarty (02:36):
Well, it's a very, good question. It's one we constantly debate. I don't think they're in a great place.
I think.. it doesn't need me to say this. All the evidence is out there with research and everything like that, that we are producing a product to the increasingly, people don't like.
And the quality of creativity has undoubtedly dropped. Talk to anybody who watches or consumes advertising, who are the general public, and they will all say, "Why are the ads so bad?" I get that question thrown at me all the time. So we're not in a great place. I think there's a reason for that.
My theory is that whenever you have a profound technological change that digital technology has created, what happens is, creativity takes a backseat, because you've created this amazing kind of plethora of opportunity, but nobody knows quite what to do with it. And therefore, creativity steps back and you get this kind of, well, we'll leave it to the scientists and it'll all be about data and algorithms and what else, and we'll forget about imagination and we'll forget about creativity. And this isn't the first time this has happened.
I mean, you know, if you think about Gutenberg, when he created, you know, the movable type and the printing press. He was a technologist. I mean, that was what he did. But what did he print? The Bible. Well, that'd been around for a thousand years, goody. What else you going to do? Well, he didn't. He didn't do anything else.
There are reasons for that, which I won't go into.
But, this happens all the time. It took, you know, another, maybe 50, 60, 70 years before people realize that you've created the publishing industry, and that you could publish all kinds of things. You could tell stories. Lumiere brothers invent the moving camera, gave up on it, went back to photography, didn't realize they just invented Hollywood, because they're technologists at heart.
Les Paul, he's in the rock and roll hall of fame, not because he wrote Rock Around the Clock or a great piece of rock and roll, but he created one of the great electric guitars. Technologist. So what we have is a dominance of technology, not a dominance of creativity. The reason for that is, you don't know quite what to do with it.
A lot of creativity is about subverting what is there. Well, if this new thing has appeared, what do you subvert? And everybody gets fascinated with the technology. But eventually, we will begin to kind of go, "Okay, yeah, now I've done that. I've had all that. It's stealing my data. It's interfering with me. I want to be engaged and entertained." And creativity will come back. In a way which we will, you know, fundamentally appreciate, is my view of it.
Charles (05:33):
Many of the developments of the past have had a certain time span to them.
I mean, sometimes decades, sometimes years. The one that we're dealing with now, the rise of the digital age has been around for, what, 15 years, 20 years, something like that? AI is moving so fast that the point of pause is hard to see from here. Do you think that's going to have a different outcome?
Sir John Hegarty (05:53):
I think that's a very good point. I think you can look at it and you can go, well, you know, this is going to keep on going. We're never going to get through it. And after all, Gutenberg's printing press and movable type, we, you know, within no time at all, got that. Now we can do this, but you've got this innovation coming along all the time.
I think, I think in a sense, you can't suppress human desire, human emotion, human needs, human requirements. You can go on feeding this stuff. In the end, people tire of it. And I think, AI, the latest development, is kind of like an iteration of that.
But we've got to understand what it is. I always have this thing, I always say, always think about the name. Whatever it is you're doing, the name says something, like creative director. you're creative and you direct, right? It's very simple. That's what you have to do. Film director. You're working in film and you direct the film.
AI is artificial intelligence. Two words, one, artificial. Okay. That's, you know, that can be okay. And intelligence. So basically what that is telling you is, it's artificial. In other words, it's just man made. It doesn't come from the soul. It comes from a kind of, an accumulation of information And it's intelligence.
Now intelligence is wonderful. It's absolutely fantastic. But basically what intelligence does it takes what's out there and it reconfigures it.
That's intelligence. You know, I know that this happened. I know that, but it's essentially backward looking. It can't project forward. That's why imagination is fundamentally important, and AI can't use imagination.
So intelligence perceives what has been, what is there. Imagination perceives what could be.
Now, creativity then is linking both those two things. It's taking intelligence, I can see what's out there, and I can imagine a better way of utilizing it, a better way of doing it.
So AI is going to be a fantastic tool. It's going to help you in all kinds of ways of which we don't know yet. Like all those bits of technology. You know, nobody knew that texting was going to be amazing. They didn't realize that. So we'll have to work with it to find out what it can do, but remember, the human brain is just phenomenal, and it's compact, and it doesn't need to be plugged into anything.
I don't need to use a wind farm of energy to generate an idea. I can just do it. I think, as somebody pointed out, I think it's quite interesting. I mean, how long do you think we've been working on driverless cars? 15 years?
The estimate is we won't get there until about 2035. Alright that's what is currently debated.
A human brain can do it in 22 hours. You can train somebody in 22 hours to drive a car.
Charles (09:08):
What a brilliant reference point.
Sir John Hegarty (09:09):
You know, so, AI, wonderful, marvellous, it's going to be fantastic. Engage with it, would be my recommendation. But just understand how genius your brain is. Just understand what it can do, and how amazingly adaptable it is, and how it doesn't have to be plugged into a network.
We're not, we don't, you know, you have to use all that energy. It's there.
Charles (09:33):
So do you feel that human connection, this instinctive understanding about what it is for a human to create an idea and for us to respond to that, though, somehow, we instinctively understand that was generated by a human being that this was not. Do you think that's going to be a through line through this? Do you put a lot of emphasis and hope into that?
Sir John Hegarty (09:53):
I don't worry about that because I think it's like, in the world of food, we talk about manufactured and we talk about organic. And you can see the desire, if I can afford it, to have organic because I feel it's better for me. Whether that's a good analogy for AI or not, I'm not sure, but I think it is relevant to the debate.
But I think if you want to progress, then certainly you're going to have AI as a tool, but you've got to have imagination. And if you don't do that, all you're going to be doing is constantly regurgitating what's there. And remember, AI scoops up all the sh*t, as well. , it doesn't discriminate. It doesn't know, that's a rotten idea that, or that's not true. It just scoops it all up.
So , you've got a very unreliable, in my view, tool on your hand, and you've got to be very careful with it, and very careful how you use it. But it is, I can see all kinds of things it's going to do, which are going to be absolutely fantastic, but we don't know yet.
So play with it. Enjoy it. Understand it has limitations like everyone. And of course, remember, as my grandmother used to say to me, "John, you know, consider the source." That was always her phrase when I said, "Grandmother, you know what he said? He said that..." and she said, "John, consider the source."
Who's telling you this is genius? The technologist. Oh! That's funny. I think I want to sell a bit more of what I'm doing. Yes, well you would say that, wouldn't you?
Charles (11:24):
I heard something just this morning, actually, of somebody who is raising money so that every commercial ever created in history can be uploaded into a large language model, and from which, the theory is, we can then create any kind of commercial obviously to your earlier point, they will all be based on things that have already been made.
Sir John Hegarty (11:44):
Yeah, so, you know, I kind of go, yeah.
But I spent my life, as most creative people have spent their life, of trying to move it forward. You know, I look forward, I don't look backwards. All you're doing is looking backwards, and yes, you can create, you know, imagery and you can create all kinds of things, but it's not going to be fresh.
And surely, what I'm trying to do as a creative person, as a practitioner, I'm trying to create something different that has value. Well, if it's already out there, of course I can reassemble things and make it appear different, but it will have a ring of, that's familiar, as opposed to, wow, I haven't seen that before.
So I see it in many ways as a kind of wonderful opportunity for creative people to really push the boundaries, because there's no point doing something that's already out there.
You know, I always used to say the most disappointing thing that would happen to me in a present if I was presenting ideas and somebody would go, "Oh, yes. Great, Johnny. I've seen something like that. It's going to be really good." You go, "Oh, no,” you've got to whip it up and start again.
Charles (12:50):
Sorry, that one's not for sale anymore.
Sir John Hegarty (12:52):
That's... I've taken that off the table.
Charles (12:54):
Do you worry that clients are going to look at this as an efficiency opportunity, and use the tool that AI represents to some people as simply that, and extract a lot of economic foundations out of the business?
Sir John Hegarty (13:07):
Of course they are. You know, of course they are, because every business is trying to produce everything they do for less, and sell it for more. I mean, that's the basis of a business, isn't it? Create a product for as little as I possibly can and sell it for as much as I possibly can.
So, of course they're going to use it. But what they're going to miss out on is that sense of standing out, that sense of kind of being different. And the problem there is, then it's going to cost them even more to get their idea listened to, watched, taken up, because they're not stimulating the imagination. So I would argue that it's going to be, I mean, it'll be a backward step.
And the other thing I'd like to point out, is we cannot go on pushing out average. You know, your global footprint, your energy consumption will not permit it. And there's going to come a point, and I talked a bit about this last year at Cannes, when, you know, we're going to start looking at companies and saying, why are you spending so much on your communication program, pushing out more average stuff? That's not sustainable. So if you are concerned about your carbon footprint, then, you know, a better idea is a greener idea. And that's what we should be looking forward to. And that, again, is what the imagination or creativity, combined with intelligence, can give you.
Charles (14:38):
This is an industry that I would argue has been built on perhaps the worst economic model in history. Selling creative ideas by the hours strikes me as a terrible idea. Do you think this is an opportunity to, quite literally, completely restructure the economic foundations of the industry? Could we get that out of this?
Sir John Hegarty (14:53):
I think it would be good. I think it was a retrograde step. And I remember at BBH, we had a big debate about it. And to some extent, we were kind of forced into it. But I think we made a mistake in going, you know, pay us by the hour. Because of course, you know, if you are really good, you got paid the same, or even less, because you got to an idea faster, not that's always the case, than the people who are slightly incompetent. So it seemed to me a very unfair way of pricing things, a very unfair way of charging for your talent, which ultimately, you know, if you believe in capitalism, you know, it's about the most efficient way of getting value for your money. And I think it was a monumental failure.
Whether this will be a way of kind of reframing that, I'm not sure. I mean, it's one of the great, well, it's bizarre in a way, that, you know, you, the great phrase of, you know, that great saying about the last piece of value a company has is a brilliant idea. How so few companies use that. How so few companies go, we've just got to have better ideas that stand out.
I mean, I had a wonderful conversation with the founder of Liquid Death, of the ater Company, and I think what they've done is utterly brilliant. And you think it's water. And the company is now worth $1.3 billion, maybe two, maybe three. I mean, at one point, you know, who's going to argue about… And what it's been done on is brilliant thinking, fabulous branding, daring thinking, and a wonderful imaginative use of creativity.
And you go, isn't this a lesson? Could some other people go, wait a minute, what have they done that we have not doing?
I was chairman of a wonderful brewery, a crop brewery in the UK called Camden Town Brewery. And they launched their lager, they called their lager, Hells. And I always know, it actually comes from Helles, which is the, the correct word for lager. But they just took the E out and we could've got Hells Lager. Now imagine how many brewing companies, you know, traditional brewing companies, oh, I don't think we can do that. Hells, that's not very good. And maybe we should do some research on it, or maybe we do... And, you know, it was a brand that took off. It was a beer that sort of was, it was a good beer. But it was brilliantly branded, daringly branded. And it's become one of the UK's bestselling lagers.
But how many companies would've gone, oh, I'm not sure, we've got to do some research. And that's the problem. We have average people producing average outputs. If you employ average people, you'll get average outputs. If you employ brilliant people, you'll get brilliant outputs. So I think that's a fairly simple equation to make, isn't it?
Charles (17:52):
Liquid Death is a great example of cultural change, which this industry has been typically very good at over the last 50 years. You would know better than I. But we're not so good at social change. Liquid Death strikes me as kind of verging on the edge of social change, right? So at least starting to make us think differently about the water that we drink and where we get it from. Do you think as an industry we should be paying more attention to, how do we create social change?
Sir John Hegarty (18:18):
I think, I'm not sure about that. I think, to a certain extent, it's overstepping our responsibility. I think our responsibility is to create outstanding creativity that communicates in a way which is effective and does as little harm as possible to the planet. I think that's our job.
I think once you start saying, I think I'm here to create social change, I think, for me, I get concerned about it, because I think it misses the point. Of course we want social change, but we do it through making our industry better, more engaging, more entertaining, more valuable, in a way which is efficient for the planet and for the brands. That way, we create change. It's too easy to jump on bandwagons and say, I'm doing this. And I seriously, I'm, I worry that Cannes has become obsessed about it. And all I see is ads for social change. I don't see ads for a better toothpaste. And I use toothpaste every day. And nobody's telling me about a better toothpaste. And that's the way you change the planet. You don't change the planet by lecturing people that we need to have social change. Here's how to do it, you know? And I, so I do get concerned about that, and I look at it and I go, is that what we want to do?
Charles (19:52):
What about the role of the industry in politics? I mean, you know, in America, I think most of, certainly the people I spend time with, feel like democracy is literally on the ballot in November. I think that this is our, none of us have lived through a world war, and suddenly it feels like this might be the fight of our generation. Do you think the industry should be paying more attention, more involved, more proactively engaged in those kinds of issues?
Sir John Hegarty (20:17):
Again, I think I am wary of that.
When we started BBH, we said there were two things we wouldn't work on. One was smoking, because I felt I couldn't work on something and then go home and tell my children not to smoke. That would be dishonest. And I think honesty is something that we should all try and look to.
The other thing we said is politics. Because Nigel Bogle, my partner, quite rightly said, “None of us are as good as all of us.” And I think people have different views on politics, different points of view, different aspects to it. It becomes a very divisive subject. So I'm always wary about stepping into that, or the industry taking a kind of a particular stance on. I think if you are dealing with principles, that's a different thing. And if you can fathom some way of saying, there is a principle here that I think we should uphold, then I think that's different. And what that principle is, I'm not sure. I haven't thought of articulating it, but I'm sure there is a principle within that about, you know, upholding the law, upholding the right of disagreement, of living by your constitution, if you're American. Those things I think we can talk about. But when we become political, as opposed to philosophical, then I think we enter a terrain that we should be wary of.
Charles (21:46):
You reached a point in your career where you could have walked away, for a moment, you kind of did, I think, and then came back. Why did you come back? What is it about this industry that keeps you so closely connected and so vital and vibrant?
Sir John Hegarty (21:58):
I didn't really walk… well I sort of walked… I left BBH, and because Nigel and I, we were the two remaining–
Charles (22:04):
Didn't you buy a vineyard?
Sir John Hegarty (22:05):
I did. For all kinds of daft reasons. If there's one piece of advice, please don't buy a vineyard.
A friend of mine said, it's a very elegant way of losing money. So if you want to lose money, then please buy a vineyard.
I didn't really, I went into, we started an early stage investment company where we were helping young entrepreneurs, not young, necessarily, entrepreneurs get their ideas off the ground. We helped them with finance and we found finance for them, and then guided them on building a brand. Because we kept saying that whatever you do, you know, somebody will copy your idea, somebody will copy the technology. What they can't do is copy the brand. So now, what's your difference? And gave them to understand that creativity isn't something that you occasionally engage with, but actually creativity is core and fundamental to your business development.
You know, in fact, starting a business is a creative idea. You know, you have to have, what are you going to make? What are you going to do? What are you going to call it? How's it going to look? All these things are creative decisions. And then the ongoing success of that is about innovation. How you going to innovate? That is a creative process. So in a way, I've always been around it and I loved it. And I do love it. And I think it is the most wonderful industry. I don't like seeing the fact that people don't regard it anymore, that it is disregarded. I feel very sad about that. And if I can do my little bit to try and help or point out how we could change it, then I will go on doing that. Because it gave me a wonderful life. And I will never, ever, you know, turn back on that.
Charles (23:42):
What did you learn about leading creative people? How did you learn to unlock their talent?
Sir John Hegarty (23:47):
I think the permission to fail is very important. And ultimately, there's no wrong answer. That there are sometimes better answers, but there's no wrong answer. So that feeling of experimenting, of playing, of being completely stupid, is something that I completely encouraged. And I felt that it was right to do that. Because I knew how I felt as a creative person when I was being creative directed. How did I respond to it? And so I just took that learning and that feeling into running a creative department.
And also, you know, when somebody's coming and showing you an idea as a creative director, it's a very exposing moment. You know, you really are going, this is me, this is what I think, this is what I believe in. And to sort of knock somebody down, in a way which is very destructive, is very bad for helping them develop an idea in the future.
So I would always, even though I might internalize, this is a completely sh*t idea, I'd always find something about it. You know, what I like about this is that, and that's really interesting now. But I think it doesn't, so you,, the person walks out with confidence because ultimately creativity is about confidence, the confidence to dare, to really go out there and try something very different as opposed to, well, I know this has been done before, so it'll be okay. I don't want to, okay, so you've got to create an atmosphere of fearlessness in the sense that there is no wrong answer, but there are just some that are better than others. And in that way, you encourage a fun, and… I mean, I used to start meetings by, if I was in a kind of, you know, with a couple of teams or something, we would talk about, well, where should we go with this? You know, I don't like brainstorm sessions and a kickoff meeting. I'd come up with a completely stupid idea. You know, this now is a stupid, and, and everybody would laugg. That is a really stupid, but hey, you never know. You know, off you go. They're going, you know? And then they'd go away feeling, well we just had the most stupid idea in the world. Maybe I could have one that's actually not so stupid, but really better. And that way you give people confidence.
Charles (25:58):
Yeah. And permission, right?
Sir John Hegarty (25:59):
And permission. Totally. Totally. It's really important that.
Charles (26:02):
Were you also conscious of hiring a certain kind of person? Were you looking for certain attributes when you hired them?
Sir John Hegarty (26:07):
No, I was open to anybody. I like diversity. I think creativity thrives on diversity. I think that's fundamentally important. So that to me was crucial. I love the diversity of a department of people from everywhere and anywhere. And that to me was enjoyable.
Charles (26:25):
And there wasn't a mindset you were looking for as confident?
Sir John Hegarty (26:27):
No. It was obviously somebody who could, you know, have brilliant ideas. And you sense, it's very interesting actually, because I used to get this, you sense people who got it, you know, they, I get it. I get what we are here to do and I know how to push it. I know how to take it in a further direction. And that to me was always interesting. And I think probably if you are a film director or if you are theater director, or if you are, whatever you are doing, people have that similar thing. I get what we are here to do and this is how I can make it even better. As opposed to not understanding that and kicking at the wrong walls, you know, kicking at the walls as opposed to doors. You want people to kick at doors. There's no point kicking at the wall. You're only going to break that down.
Charles (27:16):
When BBH was at the height of its powers under your leadership and your partners, how conscious were you about being really clear about what the environment was? How often did you articulate that in specific ways or how much of that was just a feeling that was created by the three of you?
Sir John Hegarty (27:30):
Oh no, we were very aware that the right culture created the right opportunity. Very aware from the word, go. We led by example, that principled leadership was fundamentally important.
Charles (27:43):
How did you define principled?
Sir John Hegarty (27:45):
Whatever the issue was, it was about the issue. It wasn't about the money. So if a client expected us to do something that we felt was wrong, we'd go and tell them. And if that meant we had to stop working with them, then we would stop working with them.
And we took a stand on all kinds of issues about, transparency was one, about payment, and on fees and things like that. We took stands on things to say, this is the way it should be. It should be completely clear. So I think that sense of being open and honest then permeated down for everybody else. And we had a very clear view that we, we constantly said from the word go, all roads lead to the work. That's what matters. Nothing else matters. So politics very rarely occurred at BBH because nobody gave a sh*t. You know, it says, what's the ad like, what's your idea like?
And I always used to explain to the creative people, you know, in most companies, are a triangle. Think about it. As you go up, you get more power and more power, then there's a person at the top, you know. There's Rupert Murdoch or there's Steve Jobs or Elon Musk or whoever it is. I said, our industry was the other way round. The triangle was up the other way round. I was at the bottom and they were all at the top. My job was to recognize that brilliant idea they were going to come up with, because they could change the fortunes of BBH and the clients they worked on with a brilliant idea. Because a brilliant idea can change everything.
And so it was important that they understood that. And we talked about that. And we talked about the need for just great ideas. And I used to, we used to see everybody… when they joined BBH, they'd always have an interview with, meeting with myself or Nigel or John when he was there.
And my pitch was always, we're a pain in the ass for our clients. We only have then, you know, six offices around the world. Well, you know, Y&R or Thompsons have got 306. So that could be a problem. We probably charge more than the others. That's a problem. We disagree with them all the time. That's a problem. The thing that changes their mind is our ideas are brilliant. And they go, that's why I'm with them. So that's what it, that's what matters in this agency. If you're doing that, you're doing a great job.
Charles (30:09):
As you look back, if you could roll the clock back 30 years, what would you tell yourself?
Sir John Hegarty (30:15):
Keep going. What would I tell myself?
Charles (30:17):
What do you know now that you didn't know then?
Sir John Hegarty (30:19):
Oh, I'll tell you what I know now. Well, it's not so much what I know now. I'll tell you what, I think I'm a better creative person now than I was when I was 25. Not because my ideas are better, but I can get to the issue faster. I understand how to clear away the dross, get away from that, get away from that. This is what you've got to do. And whereas when I was 25, I was not particularly good at that. I used to come up with mad ideas, and think that was great. And I wasn't able to focus so much. I've learned to focus, and time gives you that, time teaches you that. So I don't think I'm any different. I think that's the ability I've acquired over the years.
Charles (31:02):
What do you pay attention to these days to keep yourself sort of active and stimulated? What are the sources of inspiration?
Sir John Hegarty (31:07):
Everything. I think, you know, take the headphones off, you know–
Charles (31:11):
Get out of the screen.
Sir John Hegarty (31:12):
Get out, you know, get out of the screen. You know, you don't bump into people on Zoom. Meet people, talk to people, be inquisitive, curious, engaged, enjoy it. I've always said great creative people are optimists, so don't become a pessimist. Because if you are, that kills creativity. I think it's in your DNA, you're either interested or you're not. You know, you can't make people interested. I read the Financial Times, you know, and I promise you, 95% of it I just don't understand. But occasionally I come across something that is absolutely brilliant. And the point about that is, I'm one of the few creative people who's reading the Financial Times. So I have an advantage. So always look at having an advantage. And that way you keep growing.
Charles (32:01):
Is there anything you still want to find out about yourself? Anything you want to learn about yourself?
Sir John Hegarty (32:07):
I'm always surprising myself. You know, people say, oh, I understand the consumer. I say, really? I hardly understand myself at times! Why did I do that? That was a completely stupid thing to do. Or, oh, that's amazing. I didn't know I'd like that.
So this idea that you understand yourself or you understand, is nonsense. You keep discovering things about yourself, and the capacity to do that is just huge. And you go on being inquisitive about stuff and that makes life very interesting.
Charles (32:40):
Any regrets as you look back?
Sir John Hegarty (32:43):
I'm sure, but don't, don't, you know, what are you going to do about them? You know, they'll only haunt you, they'll only… Yeah, of course, I'm sure, so what, you know, everybody's going to have that. You know, look to the positive, not the negative. And the more you do that, just as you know,one of the things I say to people is, you know, read sh*t, you'll think sh*t, you'll create sh*t.
So it isn't that I'm not aware of terrible things out there. There are. There are terrible things out there, but how is that going to enhance my creativity? What's it going to do for me? You know, it was like when I was at art school, we were never told to, you know, I don't know, in the UK, in London, you can go to Piccadilly on a Sunday and people put up on the railings, the most terrible paintings that you can go and buy.
They never said, oh by the way, I think you should go to Piccadilly and look at those paintings. They went, no, go to the Tate Modern or the Tate. I wasn't there then, the Tate Gallery because there's a Ruben's exhibition on, or there's a Goya or there's a whatever. Go and see it. Be inspired. And I think in the hope that it rubs off. And I think that's, I think, essential for creative people. I really do. It doesn't mean to say you are not, as I've said, aware that there are terrible things out there. I mean, Picasso, you know, painted Guernica after the terrible bombing of that city, you know, and he channeled his creativity into doing something about it. Of course that goes on.
But, you know, use your creativity to move forward, to communicate more effectively with people, with more inspiration, with more value. And you know, you'll be more rewarded for it.
Charles (34:21):
As you look at the future, what are you hopeful for?
Sir John Hegarty (34:23):
It's funny because my future's diminished. You know, I'm 80 years old, you know. What do I think? I mean, I've got grandchildren who are just truly wonderful. I hope it goes on creating opportunities to do great things, to have a kind of, an enhanced life. A life that has meaning to it, that has enjoyment in it, that is inclusive, not exclusive. The great thing about creativity is how it tries to include. I think that's what I hope for.
Charles (34:54):
As you look back at your career, are there things that you thought were really important at the time that now seem remarkably unimportant?
Sir John Hegarty (35:02):
I always talk about, and I've written about this, and one of the things that happened when I was a young, just in the industry, is that if an idea didn't get sold, I used to really throw my, you know, toys out of the cot. I mean, I used to be that classic creative person, you know, got really, and I didn't like it. You know, I always walked away thinking, I don't like being like that. Why am I, you know?
And at the time I was being, I loved tennis and I had these wonderful tennis lessons from a brilliant tennis player from the thirties, this is a long time ago. WHD Wild. And he got to the Wimbledon finals in the doubles twice. He didn't win. And he was teaching me the backhand. And I was not very good. Forehand, I had a lovely forehand. I was very weak backhand.
Anyway, he was teaching me the backhand. John, good. I stepped on the front foot and all that sort of stuff. And anyway, I hit the most wonderful backhand, just beautiful, down the line into the corner. I thought, ah. And I always remembered, he was a very old man. He wandered up to the net and he said, that's very good, Mr. Hegarty, we’ll now move on to the overhead smash.
And I said to him, but I've only done it once. And he walked away that point from the net, and he had that sort of, and he turned, and it's like a bit of film, I can see him. He turned and walked back to the net. He called you Mr. Hegarty, he didn't call you John or anything. He said, “Mr. Hegarty, if you can do it once, you can do it 1,001 times. Ee'll now move on to the overhead smash.”
And what he was saying was belief.
And the thing that I didn't have, I thought, there I am back in, you know, my advertising. I've been given 500 great ideas. Now I'm down to 499, now I'm down to four hundred and ninety eight, four hundred. And they're not being, they're not, and so I, and I realized, no snippet this. And so the next time somebody came out with an idea that wasn't bought that I thought was great, and I said, well, why didn't they buy it? Okay, we'll have another one. And so I had another idea. So that was the great lesson I learned. And I learned that from being taught tennis by the most wonderful tennis player in the world.
Charles (37:21):
Just showing you can learn lessons from anywhere in life.
Sir John Hegarty (37:23):
Absolutely.
Charles (37:24):
I want to thank you so much for coming on the show. You've been a reference point for those of us who value creativity for such a long time. And I'm really glad that you're still providing us with that. So thank you.
Sir John Hegarty (37:32):
Well, my pleasure. Really enjoyed it. Great chat.
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Frances Harlow is the show’s Executive Producer. Josh Suhy is our Editor. Sarah Pardoe is the show’s Producer.
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