Leading In The Time Of Virus
"FEARLESS CREATIVE LEADERSHIP" PODCAST - TRANSCRIPT
Episode 119: Nils Leonard
Hi. I’m Charles Day. I work with creative and innovative companies, coaching their leaders to maximize their impact.
This episode is our third of Season 2, which we’ve sub-titled, “Leading In the Time of Virus”.
These are shorter, focused conversations in which we discover how some of the world’s most innovative and creative leaders are adapting their leadership to our new reality.
These people are among the world’s best problem solvers.
This episode is a conversation with Nils Leonard - co-founder of Uncommon - and one of the most thoughtful and original leaders I know.
Nils describes the role of leaders in moments like this as dealers in hope.
We also talked about recognizing the energy that different people bring and tapping into that. About the benefit of giving people time to focus. About what’s going to happen to society’s complacency. And why, to quote Virginia Wolf, “you can’t find peace by avoiding life”.
Here’s Nils Leonard.
Charles: (1:00)
Nils, welcome back to Fearless. Thanks so much for joining me on the show again today.
Nils Leonard: (1:03)
Thank you for having me, Charles.
Charles: (1:06)
Just tell us a little bit about where you are and what your personal situation is at the moment, just for a little context.
Nils Leonard: (1:12)
Yep. I'm at a desk that Charlotte bought me, I don't know, about 10 years ago, in our little tiny office in our house in London, which is where I spend most of my days now working from, because everybody here is, obviously, on lockdown. Uncommon have been working out of office for about two weeks now.
We're making the best of it, like everybody is, and doing what they're doing. I've put up more pictures, Charles, to try and make it look nice. But yeah, that's our situation. But feeling good, feeling hopeful, and blessed, and all that other stuff while all this happens. Not in a bad place.
Charles: (1:51)
And you've got your family there, right? You've got kids.
Nils Leonard: (1:54)
Yep, three boys and my wife, Charlotte. We're holed up. Weirdly, younger two boys, absolutely fine. 15 year old son losing his mind. Drawing art pieces at midnight and wanting to go out with his friends. Charlotte's just finished a book, actually. She's just finished her 80,000 of words. We had a few glasses of wine last night to celebrate.
Charles: (2:13)
Oh, brilliant. Congratulations. That's a real moment.
Nils Leonard: (2:17)
It is, yeah. I can't conceive of writing anything longer than a 90 second TV ad. She's smashed me on that one. I haven't got a leg to stand on anymore.
Charles: (2:26)
Well, send her my congratulations, that's a fantastic achievement. Really is.
Nils Leonard: (2:30)
Yeah, it's huge.
Charles: (2:32)
So pivoting to this, what does leadership look like to you today? What have you learned about leadership in the last two, three weeks that you weren't as conscious of before?
Nils Leonard: (2:42)
I think the biggest thing is if you know anything about Uncommon, most of our positioning is built on response to a crisis of some sort. There's a quote that we've always loved from Death of a Salesman. "I'm not interested in stories about the past or any crap of that kind, because the woods are burning."
In the book, he uses it to motivate everyone to get them to understand a response. Usually, if I'm honest, we use our positioning in order to create a sense of crisis or impending change, in order to stimulate creativity, or stimulate a movement. This is different in that there is a genuine and legitimate crisis happening. In a weird way, it's been about really living those values, actually, and coming through on them.
In a weird way, it's been very liberating because, I guess, the way we respond has just been heightened. In a weird way, it's made it real. A lot of the time when we're talking to clients, the crisis or the change we're talking about is the threats to their category, or the way we're all communicating differently, or, for sure, the world as it is.
But a lot of the crises we've been referring to have been distant. The environmental crises, for instance, in the UK is very hard to communicate because it's hundreds of miles away that it's being felt, often. Similarly, things like representation, or all these easy to miss sort of subject matters. Whereas, this is very much at home, very much in our faces. It's been about a reflection of that, I suppose.
And been very strange. The other thing that dawned on, Charles, just in response to your question is, often in a crisis of most sorts, you band together. There's a human reaction in a war, or in an attack, or in some sort of moment to come together, and that alone allows you to create an impetus and an energy, I think.
The floor of this crisis, the worst part of this is it's literally isolated us, which I think is an amazingly powerful sentiment. Not even a side effect, it's at the heart of it, isn't it? I think that's been really difficult, which is how do you... most of the trademarks of leadership in Uncommon, I think, in our company are about energy, and about each other, and about creating that sense of energy. It's how we've managed to try and do that, I think, distantly.
Charles: (5:00)
How have you gone about doing that? That's such an important point to drive home. The spontaneous connection with a company like yours has, and the three founders already had, was, to your point, was such a big part of the energy source for your business. How are you maintaining that and tapping into that?
Nils Leonard: (5:14)
Well, there's the obvious answer, like lots of contact, lots of sharing, both work-wise and fun. We're lucky enough in our work hasn't just completely disappeared. In fact, we're almost busier in a reaction to this, which is brilliant, in some ways, because it means we haven't had a dip, we're straight in, our energy levels are still high.
The biggest thing, I think, is what dawned on me, is something that dawned on me previously but has never been more important, is I think that leaders in moments like this are dealers in hope. I don't know if we've spoken about this before, but ideas aren't real, and a crisis is real. A crisis is right in front of you. It struck me that the biggest thing I could do on every call, and in every conversation we have, is inject the idea of hope. That starting something that didn't currently exist was still worth doing, and still worth investing in.
Because, in moments like this, the temptation is to either talk about everything too much, or focus on the basics, or, "Don't worry, we'll keep," and actually, we don't deal in that. We deal in the belief that something massive can happen from our thinking. So keeping that, and dealing in hope, and dealing in that energy has been critical. That's about, honestly, jumping on the phone and believing in people's ideas, and them feeling that from you.
The same rules still apply. They've got to look on the Zoom screen and see in your eyes that you're deluded enough to think you can fucking happen still. That's contagious, in a good way. That's a good contagion, which is people go, "Christ, actually, that guy still thinks this is worth doing. That's awesome." You feed off people in the same way that all of us do.
You know? I think that's so true. Yeah. I wrote this thing down I wanted to tell you, because I saw one thing was a quote from David [inaudible] now and he said, "Most businesses fail because they don't start." I thought that was amazing. I think that's true of ideas. Most ideas fail because they remain a conversation, particularly in a moment like this.
There was a great story, as a really horrific admission, this. I read a book by David Gammell, the fantasy writer. I read loads of his books when I was young. There's one story in one of these books, man, I've got to tell you. What a crisis like this does is turn the basic, everything we normally do, into something heavier, and more, "Should we do it or shouldn't we do it?"
In this book, this guy throws this person a stone and he says, "Okay, catch the stone," and this person catches a stone. Then he says, "Okay, I'm going to throw it again, but if you drop it, I'm going to kill your family, and I'm going to kill everyone you fucking know." And he was like, "Oh my God, what?" Then he throws the stone, and of course they fumble and fumble and just about catch it.
The truth is in our game, is all we do all the time is have these massively ambitious ideas. We drive our energy and hearts into a project, and we throw it all out there and hope it might change something. I think what a crisis like this does is it forces you to second guess all of those. "Well, should we be doing this in this moment? Is it the right thing to do? How would others feel?"
Super aware of the social and the surrounding noise around it all. Is it appropriate? I think a lot of what we do in our game has been forced into this conversation about, is it still right to do that? My belief, of course, is that it is. It's like catching the stone. It's like all of it. We have to remain brilliant at what we do, otherwise, honestly, there is no way through for companies like us. I think we must believe that it matters and has the power to inform some sort of change.
Charles: (8:34)
Are you finding the audience, your audiences, your clients, are they more receptive to that kind of energy, or are you having to fight even harder to get that kind of energy to resonate with them?
Nils Leonard: (8:45)
It's been mixed. Some have got more fears. So there was a project very recently that we sent to someone. The first point on that, Charles, by the way, is, as ever, we come up with ideas. The ones we can do for our own clients, the clients we founded, of course we can enact on those. But the ones we come up with for our client partners, you do the same thing you've always done, which is you hand over your thinking that you care deeply about, and then you hope in your heart that they care as much about it as you do. Enough to make it happen.
Sometimes that won't happen, but you must continue to do it. Some of our clients have just really leapt to that. James Watt from BrewDog, we sent him an idea on a hand sanitizer made from his distilleries. We looked into that and we realized if you had a distillery, you could make hand sanitizer.
We sent him that. The day before, he'd been thinking about it himself. A day later, we'd branded it for him, and a day later he was in production in Scotland creating gallons of hand sanitizer. Some of it bottled in beer bottles for the local hospital. To some degree, someone like James, who I think is a force in his own right, it was perfect for him, this sort of moment, because he works like that all of the time.
So ideas like this, he's just like, "Yeah, makes sense. Go." And that's incredibly liberating and powerful to see. Some of our clients, equally, like ITV, have acted. I think they see themselves in an immensely powerful and important place at the heart of this. They speak to 10, 12 million people every Saturday night. Now, Christ, what do we need to hear now more than ever?
And so, I love the reaction of them. Some of our other clients have been more measured, rightly. Depends on your position, I suppose, within it all. I don't just mean within your organization. I mean in the world, are you able to impact some sort of change? I think the last thing we all need is another email from a CMO saying how sorry they are about it. I don't need another CMO written COVID email, for sure. I think what we're looking for, of course, are utilities, solutions, or just moments of levity, right?
Charles: (10:44)
Yeah. I think that's exactly right. Your earlier point about the tone that you bring to a conversation resonates with me. I've found myself early on becoming a little bit too involved in the talking. Telling people stories about the statistics, and the numbers, and the trends. You suddenly realize, I'm not helping myself, and I'm definitely not helping them. I think providing optimism and hope is just such a critical, just critical component, because so many people don't have it at this point. So many people were in much worse situations than you and then you and I are in.
Nils Leonard: (11:13)
I think the truth is right now, certainly in the UK, probably in the world, actually. We're not dealing in the COVID thing, really. We're dealing in change. Every day here is different, and every bit of information every day is different. That dawned on me. The week before we all went home, it was all fine to stay at work. The week after we went home, we absolutely had to stay home.
So I think we're dealing in change, and like any moment where you're dealing in that, there has to be some consistencies from the people you spend your time with daily. The consistencies from Uncommon's point of view, I'd love to believe, are that energy, the belief that what we do matters. The belief that it's still wroth getting out of bed, and actually having a shower, and getting on the Zoom call to do your job, because we are going to impact some sort of, hopefully, some sort of positive change through our activities.
Charles: (11:56)
To your point, it's about having a values-driven business, and being true to those values, regardless of the circumstances. It's really been put to the test like never before, right?
Nils Leonard: (12:05)
Yeah, that's exactly right. I think if you founded a business... I really hope most founders would agree with me. I think if you founded a business, it's impossible to not have some values of some sort. You've put yourself out there, and you've risked your life, and you don't launch into a category. I didn't open Uncommon into a category. I opened Uncommon into the world, looked at the world and went, "Christ, are we going to fit in here? What role do we have here?"
It feels very big when you open, it feels scary big. So you must just have something, some way, some magnet to come back to. Otherwise, I don't know what those people do at midnight when you're freaking out. We go back to the stuff we wrote early doors. Lisa, Matt and I call each other and go, "Yeah, remember what we're about, though." I can hear it in their voices, when we talk. You can feel the gravel and all that stuff that made us start, and it feels good. It's like fuel.
Charles: (12:55)
How are you prioritizing your time? Because obviously living at home with your family, as you said, you've got kids who are dealing with it in different ways. Different tension points. People are always talking about work-life balance. Well, we've got that now, right? We're living that reality now. How do you decide what to do with your day?
Nils Leonard: (13:13)
Last week completely fucked it up. Last week I thought, "This is amazing. I'm going to be able to breeze out of bed, make a coffee, and then breeze into my office." Truth is, I got out of bed in a t-shirt and some pants and sat down and didn't get up until nine at night. I was like, "Hang on, that is a fucking disaster." It was literally a complete mess.
I think all those lessons, creatives are bad at naturally. Like our diaries, boundaries, and all that other stuff matter more now than ever. Leader or not, you go, "Christ, they matter massively." You must teach those to people, too, actually. I didn't know much about that, even as a senior creative leader at Grey, my previous role. Until David Patton, an ex-actual client from Sony, said, "You know, Nils, there's a thing called breakfast, and you can use that to meet new people. And there's a thing called..."
So I broke my day down. At the moment, what I'm doing, is I wake up at 7:30 AM, and my favorite part of my day is I sit down with Noah, my youngest son, and we watch one episode of The World's Most Extraordinary Homes on Netflix. It's like a holiday, and we watch these... I believe I'm teaching him some form of architecture. I'm not, I'm basically watching house porn.
We watch that and then I make everyone breakfast and I go shower, and I get dressed, and I go to work. That's what we do. As I said, just before our conversation, about six or seven at night, I sneak all the boys out to an industrial estate where no one is and we play Frisbee. These are the two fixed things I must definitely keep in my day.
But the other things are really important. There's a load of other... Uncommon is so good at this, naturally. We have such fucking amazing people. There's Friday drinks that we have where we have a disgusting version of Through the Keyhole. Do you remember that show, Charles?
Charles: (14:58)
No, I missed that show entirely.
Nils Leonard: (14:59)
Okay. Lloyd Grossman's Through the Keyhole. What he would do is he would go into a house of a celebrity, in inverted commas, because they never were. They were always sort of D-list tragedies. He would go around the house and he'd go, "Who lives in a house like this?" And you'd be like, "Oh my God, who?" And then at the end you'd see them in the bath or something, and it'd be like, "It's me!" We do a version of that, which is obscene, of course.
We're sharing a lot of music, we're sharing a lot of film. All that stuff's critical, you know. That's the lifeblood of Uncommon. We are very makey, very executional, creative company. We must keep doing that stuff. There's a quote by Saul Williams, I was just on a date with someone else, and I was like, "I can't feel any of this work." It's really hard over Zoom, we do so much musical and other stuff.
There's a quote by Saul Williams, it says, "Legislation letters..." Oh, no. "The right speech won't change legislation, but the right bit of music can make someone pick up a chair." I've just always loved that. I was like, fuck, it's so true to what we do. We're trying to keep that in our culture, even remotely, keep sharing that. It's bits of music. Make sure our decks and our presentations are loaded with all that stuff, because that's the good bit, I think. We're trying to do that.
Charles: (16:11)
Are you giving people responsibility for doing that? Are you making it that structured, or are you just trying to generally instill that across the entire group?
Nils Leonard: (16:18)
Yeah, those rules always stood, and I think it's just keeping them in an environment you're not used to being in at the moment. I've not given people crazy jobs or roles in that sense. People naturally have those and it's about accentuating them. The WhatsApp group's never been more hilarious and cutting in terms of people's Zoom photos.
Yeah. I think it's more about really accelerating what people do naturally. There was one producer who was on a call the other day. I love her. JPT, she's brilliant, Jennifer. She jumped on and you could clearly tell more than anyone, actually, on that call, she was really missing just being in the office, right? Or really missing just the buzz of people and chatting and feeling each other's energy. I just thought, "Fuck, okay. Somehow we've got to get Jenn on more calls now," because even just five minutes of Jenn at the start of the call made me go, "Oh, God, it's all going to be all right."
She was having a laugh and telling me about... Anyway, I can't say, can I, because this is public. But, you know, she's fucking brilliant. Some of those people, it's about bringing, I think, the natural assets and fireworks of every person in the company, so that each of us can experience it more. That's really hard, if a crew worked on one project. If you're working on one type project, you see the four people you've been working on. So we're really trying to make sure we switch everybody around a bit and get a bit more of that.
Charles: (17:32)
Are you seeing different sides of people's personality?
Nils Leonard: (17:35)
Yeah. If I'm honest, I am. I think some people are really good on this type of working. Some people are really efficient and very focused, and really, really impressive in a way that maybe I hadn't seen come out, which is a massive relief. Particularly on the organizational and business running side of our business. You suddenly, those people really come alive.
It's super easy in a room with creative energy and all that other stuff to bumble through sometimes with all that. In an environment like this, you really need what we... we call them bus drivers, but you really need those people who are going to get you all there. Otherwise, the whole thing will flounder. We'll all go around in circles. That's our biggest fear, that lack of movement.
It's a load of that. I also think there are some brilliant advantages to working like this. In an office, distraction, conversation, and frankly, just proximity to humans, can stop creatives being focused. Actually, this is naturally created time for some of the best creative minds in our company to really focus and deliver. I think the work that I'm looking at has never been more powerful, and it's very fast.
We work fast anyway, but it's really fast, because they're getting two or three hours on their own. Phone on flight mode. It's good and bad, right? Like an author you can wake up and be like, "Oh my God, I just sat here for five hours and made three presentations." I am seeing the work and it's phenomenal. In that way, there'll be some behaviors that I really would like to try and keep out of the back of this.
That's a very hard discipline to self-enforce. Everyone says, "Oh, we don't care where you work from." Uncommon's position has always been, it doesn't matter, but I think you're drawn to people. You're drawn to come into the office. You're drawn to that routine. I actually think I'm going to really try with the creatives, in particular, to go, "Look, get your time out. If you need four hours just don't fucking come in, go do that," and almost make them. Because, honestly, I can promise you this work I'm looking over the last week and a half has been phenomenal.
Charles: (19:37)
It's a perfect segue. As you look forward, what do you think the changes are likely to be to the way that business works?
Nils Leonard: (19:48)
Idea we make, so my natural reaction to that, Charles, is I think you're going to see tremendous amounts of similar styles of making, obviously. You're going to see gigabytes of UGC being run on mainstream channels because that's the only way to produce in an environment like this. You're going to see a massive trend toward visual artists who don't need massive crews or collaboration to make their work shine. Actually, in a weird way, I think we're going to get a raft of very, very original looking things, hopefully, that come out of this.
Like any creative, right, I'm immediately sick of UGC, because it's already been around for two and a half weeks. So I'm like, "What else can we do within these constraints?" The constraints are brilliant. As always, the blank sheet of paper is awful. Anyone tells me I can't work, so dealing with the problem is, I think. I think we're going to see a load of different ways to produce.
I think it could be an amazing time to be an experienced and brave producer, or run a production company. I think you're going to see some real innovation, and real leaps, and some new companies. The one thing I... People are going to launch brands out of this, good and bad. People are going to launch products. They're going to create new companies. They're going to bring new, different crews of people together, and there's going to be some amazing businesses that start out of all of this, like any crisis. I think those businesses are going to need all the things they usually need, except they'll be done in a totally different way. I'm really excited about that.
Any business, in my experience, born of a crisis or a problem tends to go a long way. I think Uncommon, I would argue, is born from one. I can see some amazing businesses coming out of this.
Charles: (21:24)
That is also a perfect segue, thank you. If somebody said to me yesterday, that old, classic adage of never let a good crisis go to waste. Somebody said to me this morning, a crisis is danger plus opportunity.
Nils Leonard: (21:39)
Yeah.
Charles: (21:40)
Right. What do you think are the good things that are going to come out of this one?
Nils Leonard: (21:44)
Well, like I said, I think there's going to be businesses that respond. I think there's the obvious stuff about appreciating work-life balance, all that other stuff. I don't know. I really would love to believe that people are going to understand. I saw the UN today put out a call to creatives saying, "Anyone got any ideas? We're not thinking about this in the right way. Can you guys just have a think about what we should be doing? How we get our messaging across to people in a way they'll actually listen." I think there's going to be some realizations about the power of creativity to inform massive change and impact.
I think one example of that, right, is when young people found out they weren't really dying, and they are dying, but they're not dying as much, right? But there was a really interesting thing. The early warning system of this whole thing was, actually, the young are fine. That was a rumor, right? You immediately saw them not give a shit. If I'm honest. Not in a horrible way. It's human nature, which is kind of not affecting me. I know it's affecting my relatives, but, yeah, it wasn't as urgent.
Now, I don't believe... Lucy has this great phrase, which is doing the right thing for the wrong reasons. You've seen everybody reach out to these people, going, don't do it. You're going to kill your relatives. You're going to kill the older people. If we reached out and said, "You get free data if you stay at home," these guys would stay home. Okay, now I'm just going. What you're going to see is you're going to see some rank and powerful shifts in insight. You're going to see new insights that didn't exist before.
You're not going to see as many ads that go, "Spending too much time in the office? Get home to your family." That's dead, that insight, right? That's completely dead. I think you're going to see some different stuff there. Hopefully, and this is the last thing I would love to come out of this. In our game, there's a bunch of people that like to force a choice, which is black or white. Is it famous or is it effective? Right now the choice is, should we just be servicing our clients or should we be trying to save the world? Right?
I hate any forced choice. I don't believe that there is a choice like that we have to make. If you wanted another quote from for it, which you sounds like you're quoted out, but my favorite one's Virginia Wolf. "You can't find peace by avoiding life." I don't think this is an ad agency fucking problem, or a life problem. I think it's just a problem, and we all have a role, if we want to, in helping solve it.
And we all, if we want to, can care enough and use our brains and use everything we have to improve the situation. I think we've missed an opportunity if we haven't. I don't believe that's even an argument. I think that's always been true of people. Not of our industry of people. Some people are going to care enough and want to matter enough and want to make a difference enough to act, and some aren't.
Charles: (24:20)
I believe you're right. I hope you're right, and I believe you're right about that. I do think that it's going to create a fundamental shift in society. I think that people are suddenly conscious in a different way about what time is worth to them, and how fast things can change. We've all walked around with different levels of complacency, but fundamentally complacent, for the most part. It's hard to imagine that we're all going to go back to that very quickly. Hopefully, to your point, we'll have some structural, systemic, societal changes in place, and an acceleration towards a future that I think was already coming, but not fast enough.
Nils Leonard: (24:51)
I hope so. I mean last week, Charles, I had one meeting with a guy who wants to involve us in an environmental project. He was from Australia. When I talked about the woods burning, he flew all the way around the world, gathering religious leaders and all these other people, to try and make a difference about the environment. The reason he did that was because the woods were literally burning outside his house. Right? Those fires out there were insane.
I think there is a whole raft of the world who've been looking directly at disaster, and it hasn't included us. I think a taste of that mortality, and all of the other stuff that comes with it. I'm never going to say it's a good thing, but I do think it's a real thing, and it means that more humans will be wrapped up in genuinely powerful subject matters around what matters most to us.
Charles: (25:41)
I think that's true. Somebody said to me last week, they think this is the planet talking back. You wouldn't listen, fine. You're going to listen now. Last question for you. What have you learned about yourself? What are you learning about yourself?
Nils Leonard: (25:54)
Loads. I don't know if I'm a... You always do this, right? You always make me say weird shit. I feel like I'm in a counseling session or something. I don't know if I'm good enough on a Zoom call. I don't know if I can keep it all going. That's my nervousness. I doubt things I didn't doubt for awhile. Scary stuff, isn't it, Charles? When you look at a business, we're two and a bit years old, we're doing very well. I learned that two or three of our clients have one month's runway, man. One, and these are multi-million dollar clients, and I'm like, "Christ. Okay. It can all just go." I think part of Uncommon's inertia has been not really looking too hard at some of that.
This is really forcing us to. I don't know. What I'm learning is, partly good, and partly bad. I think we do, I do, have the gut for it, but it is real, and it is scary. That's humbling and also a little bit fucking scar. I don't know, I guess I'll see you on the other side, Charles, is the answer to that question.
Hopefully I'll come through [inaudible] Uncommon will come through, and I really believe we will, but I think it's more real than just starting a business, [inaudible] this is like, "Christ. Okay." It's big stuff. I don't know if that's an answer to your question, man. I think I'm learning is the answer to your question, at the moment. I'm not sure what I've learned. Yeah.
Charles: (27:20)
I think the problem solvers will always thrive and survive and you are nothing, if not a problem solver. I have great faith in you and in Uncommon.
Nils Leonard: (27:28)
Thanks, Charles. I believe it, too, to be honest. I've got great partners, that's the God's honest truth. Here's one. I didn't really realize how much I needed other people. I've always talked a lot about dependency, and not wanting to need other people. That's why I design, that's why I edit. I have an inbuilt fear of it. In moments like this, you really do. You need your team. You really, really do. You don't want your team, you need your team. Being open about that, I think, is also a very powerful thing to do, when you can tell someone, which I did this morning. "I'm really fucking glad I work with you." That's a very powerful thing. I don't even think that's leadership. I don't know what that is. That's just a thing, but it's good.
Charles: (28:11)
It's my definition of leadership, for sure. I think that level of vulnerability is a very important part of leadership today. Absolutely. Nils, thank you so much. I appreciate your time, your honesty, as always, your insight, you're a gem.
Nils Leonard: (28:23)
Thank you Charles, that was great, man. Take care.
Charles: (28:25)
You, too.
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