Leading In The Time Of Virus
"FEARLESS CREATIVE LEADERSHIP" PODCAST - TRANSCRIPT
Episode 142: Justin Spooner
Hi. I’m Charles Day. I work with creative and innovative companies. I coach and advise their leaders to help them maximize their impact and grow their business.
In today’s world, leadership means meeting the challenges of two viruses - COVID-19 and racism. In this environment, unlocking creative thinking and innovation has never been more critical.
This week’s guest is Justin Spooner, the co-founder of the London-based consultancy, Unthinkable Digital.
Justin knows more and thinks more than anyone I know about how people learn and how they connect.
In a world that has moved mostly online, that understanding has become essential not only for our business success but for our humanity - and increasingly for our sanity.
Like all great conversations, I learned a lot from this one. And have applied some of the revelations to the problems faced by my own clients.
So, what do you need your people to understand and what problems do you need them to solve? And, how are you teaching them that?
Here’s Justin Spooner.
Charles: (1:12)
Justin, welcome to Fearless. Thanks so much for coming on the show. It's great to get you on the show finally.
Justin Spooner: (1:17)
Hey, I'm very happy to be here.
Charles: (1:20)
Tell us where you are and tell us who you are in quarantine with.
Justin Spooner: (1:25)
I am in the UK in a field in Norfolk in a caravan, quarantining with my family. Three kids, middle-aged man, lovely girlfriend. It's actually been weirdly, quarantining, like the rest of my life was because I was in a kind of quarantine mode anyway, as a digital person. I didn't often have to actually be anywhere in particular anyway. In many ways, I've totally got away with it. It feels like normal life to me.
Charles: (1:58)
Given that, what is different for you?
Justin Spooner: (2:01)
Well, something that's changed is pretty much as soon as the lockdown happens, around March, our company was busy but then it got busier and busier and busier. And this is obviously in stark contrast to a lot of people's lives and so, I count myself lucky upon lucky. But people wanted support with building new digital things. They wanted to think about online learning with us. They wanted to build courses quickly. They wanted to think about new platforms. We just became inundated. Oddly, at the point when everyone was locking down and I was thinking, "Oh, it's quite good. I'm going to hang out with my family and it's spring and it's going to be really great." I actually didn't see anyone for about two months because I was just doing eight, ten hour days. It was like, "What is this? This is too much. Don't like it."
Charles: (2:57)
Given the fact that, as you said, you built a company perfectly positioned for a global pandemic, which is strategically brilliant of you to see that coming. Given that, and given the fact that you were already, as you say, immersed in the world of digital and how do you create communities? How do you connect communities through a digital perspective and digital, physical reality? What has changed in your view other than you have a lot more people coming to you, realizing they need that? What has changed in terms of people's understanding about what they need from a digital perspective?
Justin Spooner: (3:34)
I think if you think about... I've been kind of going at this for about 20 odd years and I feel like what's happened in the last little while and, funnily enough, I think Zoom has played a massive part of this, is the obsession with saying, "Actually it's about improving the quality of our connections." That doesn't mean bandwidth. That doesn't mean the latest functionality. What it means is can we form groups, digitally, that are able to exchange ideas, express emotions, form plans, hang out, all the things that humans, it turns out, really need. And it's interesting in the learning space, in the world that we often work in. I think there's been a real understanding that education is about so many things at the same time. It's got this kind of learning experience, obviously at the heart of it. There's this idea of, "Have I understood new things?"
But it's also about a culture of learning. It's also about the idea of forming trusting relationships. It's about the idea that we learn collectively and we build each other's understanding. And the way that we have to do that is to be able to communicate freely and openly with each other. And that, in a way, has created quite a complicated way of thinking about digital. Because there was a low point in all of this, around learning and digital, where it was like, "Well, the thing is, we'll just stick some PDFs up on a learning management system and they'll just download the PDFs and learning will be done." And I think there's a very strong sense, certainly in the last six months, it's like, "No."
And not only is it no, like, "We kind of know that's not a good experience." It's also not worth the value of the price any more, if you were doing a degree or you were doing any kind of learning where you were paying a price. The idea that there's just a bunch of resources that you're going to click and download is out the window. Absolutely gone. I think there's a very strong sense from all the people that we're working with that they want to go further and deeper, consider more options, be more holistic, more joined up and exploratory than perhaps ever before.
Charles: (5:54)
Given that you have always been audience-centric. You've always been focused first on, "What does the audience need from this experience and how do we make that happen for them?" What have you learned? What did you already know and what have you come to realize, that audiences need in terms of how people learn these days? Because your point, it's not a passive, receptive, shove a bunch of information and, "Read it and then you are taught. You are now educated." A lot of us don't learn like that. I've never learned like that. What have you learned that people need in order to be able to learn?
Justin Spooner: (6:26)
Yeah. The one thing I've learned, for certain, is that not only are no two people the same but often if you get six people together, they'll be the furthest ends of the spectrum you can imagine. We did a project with a client where we did a lot of user-centered design stuff and we were talking to them about their preferences. And I swear, the group literally split into, "Oh yeah. No, we'd love to do that in an online kind of social way, where we were sharing ideas with each other and so on. And it could be really synchronous. I'd appear at one and I'd be chatting to someone,” and we're like, "Yeah, that's great."
And then another group of people would be like, "No, I hate that. No, no, no. Hate that. I wouldn't want to see anyone. I don't want to be part of a learning community. It's just making me feel sick, you just saying it. No, what I want is just like, 'Give me the plan. Here are the 12 concepts. There's the narrative thing. You've got to do this. You've got to learn this, apply it here. I'll do it all but don't get me into that other space. That's going to make me feel really uncomfortable." We're like, "Oh. Oh, that's a shame because we've got to build something that works for the both of you."
I think what I'd say is there was a theory a little while back that became popular, that was like, "Oh yeah, there's these kinds of learning styles and we've got to think really carefully about these learning styles." And I think what's actually happened is that as a theory has crumbled in people's hands. For example, Charles, it might be like you get a piece of IKEA furniture home. And you might just be like, "I'm not going to read the instructions. I've got an intuitive sense of how I'm going to build this." Maybe in that world, you're like, "No, I can do it like this." But then in another world, maybe it's to do with wells. You're thinking about the plumbing of your house. You're like, "No. Do you know what? With that I need to do deep research. Before I even ring these people up, I'm going to do a week so that I at least know half as much as them so they're not going to take advantage of me."
For every different situation, it turns out, humans construct a different learning methodology. And they're so buried, they're not conscious, they're so sort of in one's material personality that you can't say it. If you said to me, "Hey, Justin, what's your learning style?" I'll often not be able to tell you, because you're not conscious of it. What I think that means is, it’s not that you've got to find some middle way but that you've got to kind of create experiences that have options, multiple options at the same time. Different ways for different people to do things at the same time.
Charles: (9:08)
That's fascinating because it suggests to me that part of the role of education should be, it clearly is not, but it should be to discover and then teach you how you learn. Like a really holistic education system would be first focused on, "Who are you? How do you absorb information? How do you gather information? How do you solve problems? Great. Got that. Let us help you now. Let us teach you through that lens." And no education system I've ever encountered, even asked the first question around that, or you would know better than I, but most education systems fail completely, spectacularly at any interest at all in how the receiver receives it.
Justin Spooner: (9:47)
Yeah. Well, both you and me, Charles, were big fans of Sir Ken Robinson. And I rather think that his hypothesis that he put to the world continuously was, we need to move away from industrialized process of learning into a personalized process. But the problem with that, almost instantly, is it's a lot harder to take personalized learning than it is to do industrialized learning. No wonder we've set up industrial processes for everything under the sun because that's how you build things efficiently. It just turns out that it kind of only works for a really slim proportion of your population of learners. What I would say though is, if I want to pick a sort of positive out of this is, if you think of them as being formal learning, the places and institutions that say, "I am going to teach you some things." And let's say that there's a thing called informal learning, which is what we do every single day, every single moment of our lives, then I'd say that, actually, the diversity of ways in which we can learn in our informal spaces has never been better.
Although we can deride and and I think, in some ways, fully righteously deride formal education for some of its failings, I'm actually in a more positive frame of mind because I know that if someone wants to learn about how to use a music studio or if someone wants to learn how to think about photography or dance or sing, there's a million different ways that that can be done outside of the formal context.
Charles: (11:26)
So, in that case, finding the person whose ability to teach you is right for you. It's a bit like finding the right golf instructor, I guess, from my standpoint. I took lessons from about 10 different people before I finally found somebody who explained it to me in a way that I could actually understand it and do something with it. In those cases... To go back to the business that you're in and the need now that the entire world has, which is to learn in completely different ways, part of what... There's two ends to this equation. There are companies who are delivering the knowledge and the insights and the information and the "education". That's one part of the equation.
The other part of the equation is helping people to become more discerning about the ways that they actually absorb information and respond to information and so on. And I think, from a business lens, what strikes me, therefore, is that companies and leaders need to become more sensitive to an adroit at understanding, "Yes, we need to communicate a mission, a vision, an intention, a set of strategies that go with that. But we need to also be conscious that we can't communicate that in a one-size-fits-all way because people are absorbing it or in some cases not absorbing it at all." And it's one of the reasons why we've been developing this diagnostic tool over the last couple of years, that measures a company's capacity for innovation and creative thinking. What we've learned is that there are no companies we've ever found who are completely coalesced around mission or vision. There is no sort of community understanding about what that means. And when you go even further than that, we've never found a leadership team that is aligned in terms of what they think is important and what they are prioritizing in their day-to-day work. And I think part of what I'm discerning through our conversation is that one of the reasons for that may not just simply be a failure from a leadership level to communicate it but it may also be a lack of understanding about the need to communicate it in different ways so that different kinds of people can absorb the same message. Is that fair? Is that true?
Justin Spooner: (13:31)
I think that's very true. I think I probably wouldn't use absorb in quite the same way. I think I'd go with.… My version of what you've just described is I basically think that strategy and mission is almost impossible to embed in an organization without the concept of a learning culture. And I think that the concept of a learning culture doesn't mean, "Oh, we're going to do lessons in the mission," because that sounds awful. What it is is, "How do ideas move through this organization?" That's it really. How do ideas move? How are they championed? How are they built upon? How are they strengthened? How are they critiqued? And frankly, you want that critique in there as well. So it's interesting, I would be afraid of an organization that did have a kind of stick of rock, cut it in half and look, "There's the mission all the way through." That would panic me. Because what I would feel like is that you haven't got a critical, analytical, responding and adapting workforce.
And maybe that's a good thing. Maybe there were workforces that need to be entirely compliant and have got the message. But on the whole, I would say a strategy needs to be moved about, a little bit like a tasty wine, you've got to move it about. Basically, you're not getting it... Nothing's happening unless you move it about. I suppose, weirdly, there's an analogy with money, isn't it? Money has literally no value if it all gets stuck in the one place. It has to move about. And so, I think organizations... And they do often obsess about the concept of learning cultures but often what it turns into is like, "Have we created a really good repository of stuff? Have we got the posters up in the right places? Have we turned this mission statement into few enough sentences with enough kind of real core verbs that people can just say that stuff back to me, if I needed to ask them?"
And none of those things, as far as I'm concerned, have got really much to do with learning culture. I think learning culture would be something along the lines of, "Have we designed a set of tools and processes that enable these ideas to elegantly move through the organization? Have we found ways in which an entry level person onboarding into my organization can consider these ideas, critique them in some way and I would still, as the CEO, find out about a really cool idea that just popped up last Wednesday." That would be a learning culture.
Charles: (16:05)
So, very dynamic, willing to interpret the company's mission, if you will, for themselves. And the ability to define that in nuanced ways. The ability to then determine whether the things they're thinking about, drive that forward or don't drive that forward. Maybe not completely autonomous but certainly much more self-directed. Is that what you're describing?
Justin Spooner: (16:33)
Yeah, because I think, fundamentally, what I'd want if I was running a company, is a smart workforce. It's not a workforce that's fully signed up to a particular religion or ideology. It's a smart workforce. I think you've just nailed it, which is often in boiling down a mission into something that's acceptably short, you lose the nuance. But that's not because you'd want the nuance to be lost. It's because you want it to be added back in at the local and contextual level. You want the person to go, "Ah, when they're talking about the customer, always the customer first, what they mean is, in my area, this." And so, it's more like a set of guides for thinking, is the way that I would probably try and describe it.
Charles: (17:22)
So, another way of saying that, I think, is the mission is the beginning, not the end. The mission is the starting point, not the destination.
Justin Spooner: (17:32)
Absolutely. 100%, yeah. I think that... I spend a lot of time with senior teams and I know you do, Charles, and senior teams are absolutely stuffed full of brilliant people. And they generally get to being senior by being all the different shades of brilliant. But sometimes that can get in the way because that brilliance is a way of saying, “Yeah, but I understand, or I've got all this, I've got this in my mind. I've got a mental model for it and everything. I can just see how it applies in all the different ways." The work of a learning culture and the work of an educator is to think about someone who doesn't understand that or doesn't have the same cultural frame of references, who hasn't had the same education. And it's actually more important that they understand it than you do, half the time.
Charles: (18:23)
Yeah. I think that that's such a... I mean, that resonates so much with me because it explains also why I've seen what you very accurately described earlier as companies who are really, really good at boiling down mission or vision or purpose down to a very few number of words. And then, despite their best intentions and their best efforts, can't figure out why six months or a year later, you can walk through the door and the company doesn't have any feeling of any of those things. And, at best, it's very much applied at the upper levels of the company where they talk about it more comfortably. But as you go down through the company, it just loses energy, relevance, resonance. I think that's absolutely fascinating. It's so instructive.
In terms of leading in a pandemic, obviously there is already much more need as you described and much more demand for digital connections. I was just talking to somebody a little earlier today about what does the office of the future look like and how much do you think people will spend time in offices? And I think we all agree, don't know the answer to the first question, but a lot less is the answer to the second question. There will be much, much more of this kind of exchange. We will spend a lot more time dealing with people in digital environments. What have you learned is critical to creating digital programs, digital initiatives, digital tools that allow for human beings to take advantage of their best attributes and their best assets, which is often in many cases, the instincts and the connection of just being human beings together?
Justin Spooner: (19:59)
Yeah. I think something that I've heard a lot with the people that we've worked with recently about an online kind of culture of engagement is what one might call ambient togetherness. I realize that's a ridiculous phrase, but one of the benefits of office work, which I think there are very few benefits, but one of them is this idea of this kind of, "Oh right. There were just these humans all around. Yeah. And if I go over there, I can sort of hear them chatting. And then I'd go and get myself a cup of tea and oh look, there's that person. Oh, I'm going to catch up with them. And then we're having a bit of an ambient chat." It's this idea there are serendipitous moments, there were moments of connection that no one has plotted in. No one has planned. There is not an agenda for and somehow, they create the fabric, I think, the cultural fabric of an organization.
And I think we are all failing at that at the moment. Just to give you a sort of pertinent example of that. Many, many of us are in back to back Zoom calls at the moment. Zoom calls have this kind of lean forwards sort of... We've got a thing that we need to do. We've got a certain amount of time, sometimes it's half an hour, sometimes it's two hours. And there's this sort of very, what one might call on-purpose way of being together. And I think that there is a thing that needs solving.
I think we need something that feels like a much more ambient way of being together. I would say a tool like Slack is heading in that direction. It's got this sense that we're all milling around, exchanging thoughts. Something that occurs to me a lot at the moment is, a question will pop in your mind and you'd be like, "Oh God, how do you do that thing?" And then you go, "Oh, I'll ask Sarah." And you just a quick message in the Slack. "Hey, Sarah, I was thinking about this thing." And there's 30 minutes later, Sarah gets back to you. "Brilliant answer. That's it!" But you wouldn't do that in a Zoom call. Not only wouldn't you, you couldn't. You couldn't be having a meeting and you just say to Sarah in the middle, "Hey, Sarah, I just had this thought that's got nothing to do with the thing we're doing. What's your response to this?" Because she'd feel embarrassed. You'd feel embarrassed.
That is a big thing, that ambient culture. I think probably another thing is a problem that I've been pondering for ages and ages and ages, which is what I'd call modes of collaboration. How do we actually collaborate? Now, it turns out that conversations are a really good way to collaborate. So thank goodness for that because we've got so many ways to have those conversations. But actually, if you think about it, the way in which we might write documents or build diagrams with each other or create prototypes of things in this kind of world that we're now living in, I think become more and more important. We started using Google Jamboard a lot. And it's really interesting because it's like a really retrograde tool. It's almost like taking it back to nothing.
It's like, "Here's a screen. Stick some post-its on it. Maybe have a scribble." That's kind of all you can do with it. But somehow, because of its simplicity, it invites direct and easy engagement, a sort of playful engagement. And I think that that's another really important thing to sort of think about is the way that we can collaborate in easy and playful manner where we can not worry about the kind of how good looking the thing is that we're making and so on. That I think is a real area of growth for this next little while.
Charles: (23:47)
Well, and that's a great point because, and to that point, all of our exchanges are structured and formal, to your point, through Zoom. I mean the screen itself is structured. The frame is completely structured. To your point, there is a start and a stop. I've noticed everyone's become very disciplined about meeting ending, obviously because they've got another one, but it's also mutually respectful. The thing that is fluffy or kind of uncertain is how each of us show up in a Zoom because there's obviously, we've all become a lot more comfortable with being a lot more casual. And so, we're not as groomed. Our backgrounds are different. We're seeing more about each other.
So I think that the kind of the human part of it has actually gotten looser. But to your point, the structure by which we engage has actually gotten much stricter. Whereas, it used to be the other way round. The people used to be much more kind of together and formal and presented and in a box and the way we did it was very much in the way you've just described it. And you would be reading body language, which you can't really read now because you can't fit all the people on the screen on your little thing at the top either so you can't keep an eye on who's uncomfortable and who's leaning in and who's energized and who's distracted.
So understanding all of that I think is really interesting. And I think the other kind of language that's going on, there's this new kind of almost code, I guess, maybe language is the better word. But I was recently in a situation where I was introducing somebody to false start three lots of different people over three different Zoom calls. And the person I was introducing was the center of attention and their camera broke on the first day of these calls. And so, for all three calls, everybody else could be seen but they couldn't be seen. And everybody dealt with it and everybody was kind about it and polite about it but you could tell it just changed the energy. Because I felt it was a bit like walking into a meeting in the old days and somebody standing behind a black screen and saying, "You can hear my voice, but you can't see me. I can see all of you, but you can't see me." And it just created a very different dynamic.
I think that your point about making sure that we are creating environments in which people can have normal human contact and engagement, and we need technology to be able to do that for us, it has to be part of the next wave of technical evolution. Don't you think?
Justin Spooner: (26:19)
Yeah. I can sort of imagine Zoom pondering this, literally, as we speak, as a sort of a... They've done a phenomenal amount actually of, I think, paying attention to how Zoom is being used and making adjustments as we go. I seriously do applaud them. I had a bit of an argument on Twitter about Zoom with someone where they were like, "No, you mustn't use Zoom. West Coast, you can't. It's just no good. Mustn't do it." And I was like, "Well, the reality is, is it's kind of saving all of us in this pandemic. I don't want to go overly heroic on this but it's doing an amazing job at bringing us together at a very low point in humanity's story." And I did also ask, "What's the alternative?" And actually there aren't, they're not on there yet. But there are some more rubbishy ones.
Charles: (27:07)
Oh my God. Yeah. When I'm dealing with corporations who've decided Zoom is, for whatever reason, not them and they start using other stuff and you go... Everybody in the company hates them. You hate them when you have to use them. They clog up your... I mean, they're just dreadful pieces. But you're right. The ubiquitousness and the simplicity of Zoom is really a credit to them.
Justin Spooner: (27:25)
Yeah. And they've thought a lot about webinar mode or they've thought about, "Well, what would happen if we needed to put a spotlight on someone that's not the host?" I mean, they're thinking, I'd say, has gone way, way further than anyone else has ever thought. Skype, then into Microsoft. They never did that extra bit of thinking. Where they got to was, "Hey, it's like a video call. It's like a call where you can talk but I can see you as well." Whereas Zoom are like, "No, what is actually happening here is 30 people are interacting and you need eight different modalities for that and here are all the buttons for it.” And it is a bit of a mess, but it's like, "Wow." That's the bit of thinking that needs to happen. But it's interesting, you were saying about... I mean, I'm as equally shabby now as I has ever been but I do know what you mean that there is... I would say we've unshackled our professional identities somewhat in this period. And I think that's a really positive thing.
The one reason why I think it's probably going to be a really positive thing when we look back is, I do believe that corporate hierarchies are limiting. On the whole, they're specifically designed to limit the engagement of certain people. A more senior person in a meeting seems to just have a limiting effect on a more junior person because they just like, "I'm not sure if I want to say that thing." But as we become all sort of little boxes, stamps, and as we become increasingly disheveled, I think everyone's like, "Oh, I'm just going to say my thing now because it doesn't look like there is much of a hierarchy going on here."
Charles: (29:05)
That's a great point because you're right, we occupy the same screen space suddenly. So, emotionally, it's like, “Oh, I'm their equal because I fill the screen as well as they do when my time comes, if I say something." Yeah. What an interesting insight that is. I hadn't thought about that.
Justin Spooner: (29:20)
I had a really weird one the other night that's on that line, which was, if you had the benefit, for example, of being a looming tall figure and you used to use that to upon others, that's been taken away from you now.
Charles: (29:33)
Yeah. Because all I have to do is drag the screen closer to me and I get a lot bigger.
Justin Spooner: (29:37)
Yeah, now I'm looming. But yeah, I think there's some really interesting thing about sort of the democratization of voice in the way that we're going with this pandemic. That, and I think it's been supported by the rise of social media as a kind of a very strong sense that almost is inarguable now, which is everyone has got their right to their individual voice. And weirdly, those little boxes entitle you to that.
Charles: (30:08)
That's so interesting, Justin. Last two questions. I'm conscious of the time. What have you learned about your own leadership as this has all kind of swept over us? The year of the apocalypse has swept over us.
Justin Spooner: (30:21)
Yeah. Well, I mean, Unthinkable, my company that I have with Matthew, my co-director, we've done some growing in 2020. And I'm going to say that the number one thing for me has been my relationship with risk, which I think is a good theme for this podcast and where you started this, Charles. Is that I am on the surface quite an outgoing, easygoing kind of guy. But the funny thing is inside, I'm weighing up risk all the time and I've had loads and loads of thoughts about, "Oh, should we grow?" And, "Oh God, what if it stops? What if this good time stops?", and so on and so forth? What I've actually come to realize is, "Well, the whole world's in a complete and utter state so what am I thinking about here? This is the time. This is the time."
I think there's been... I've had a couple of projects over this period. I've done one project with the Royal College of Art and worked very closely with a colleague called Emma on that. And I just, again, it was that thing of like, what I really, really appreciate in leaders is a kind of humility. Maybe it's my roots, but I love the humble leader. I love the leader who clearly has a plan and clearly knows their stuff, but absolutely makes the right space for everyone else.
And personally, I find all other forms of leadership that are not like that, really just, I can't hack it. I'm too old now. I'm 47. "I can't. No, I'm sorry." But I'm very, very lucky that the people that are modeling leadership around me are really in that mode. It fits the times in every way. And I also think it's how you build digital things. It really comes from a sense of everyone's got a really positive perspective. If you're a coder, a designer, a content developer, a data analyst, all of these disciplines and pursuits, they come together with a kind of an equality that's absolutely essential. And you can really only bring out that equality if you have a humble leader.
Charles: (32:41)
Yeah. That's very well said. Last question. What are you afraid of?
Justin Spooner: (32:46)
Well, I think the thing that I constantly, what worries me, is the, "Will I have done anything of any worth?" That's the question. I'm a dilettante and I move from thing to things and Matthew and myself have built a company that, on the one hand, is doing video production or it's doing digital strategy or it's doing service design. It's doing all these different things. And sometimes I think, "Should I have gone for being a specialist and just really focused in on one thing? Maybe that's how you make impact." And I just keep hoping that the world will end up loving generalists because that's the best I can do. I am absolutely in full admiration of people that have decided to go deep. Yeah. "Pick an area, go deep." But the thing that scares me is, "Oh God, I think I've just touched everything really lightly." And I look back at it and realize that I don't know hardly anything about loads of things.
Charles: (33:57)
Well, as someone who's known you for a while, I think I can tell you whether this resonates or not but you will never be mistaken for somebody who is shallow. So I don't think you have to worry about that personally.
Justin Spooner: (34:07)
Oh, brilliant. That's good. Brilliant.
Charles: (34:09)
Thank you so much for doing this. It's such really, really invaluable insight, I think. And, in fact, you've expanded my understanding of a bunch of different areas today so I thank you for that as well. Thanks for coming on the show.
Justin Spooner: (34:21)
Thanks for getting me here.
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