Leading In The Time Of Virus
"FEARLESS CREATIVE LEADERSHIP" PODCAST - TRANSCRIPT
Episode 138: Marcel Marcondes
Hi. I’m Charles Day. I work with creative and innovative companies. I coach and advise their leaders to help them maximize their impact and grow their business.
This episode is part of Season 2 - which we’ve sub-titled, “Leading In The Time Of Virus”.
In today’s world, leadership means meeting the challenges of two viruses - COVID-19 and racism.
In this environment, unlocking creative thinking has never been more valuable or essential.
This conversation is with Marcel Marcondes - he’s the U.S. Chief Marketing Officer for Anheuser-Busch.
We talked about what he’s learned about leading a culture that embraces minorities after experiencing racism in his own life.
And about the need to show up as a human being first and a leader second.
We also talked about why he’s listening now, more than ever. And then turning what he hears into action.
That last point is especially important, I think.
Listening has become a new metric for leaders. But if listening is all you do, you’re hoping someone else will make the tough calls.
In this extraordinary time in which we’re living, some leaders are stepping forward and it’s remarkable to see. Others are sliding back, behind the cover of chaos, their communications and digital body language filled with excuses and justifications for decisions that they hope no one will notice or they hope will soon be forgotten.
Hope is necessary for all of us. But it has never been a strategy and it is not a substitute for making hard decisions.
So, as you look at the people you’re responsible for, maybe ask yourself this.
Are you leading? Or just hoping?
Here’s Marcel Marcondes.
Charles: (01:54)
Marcel, welcome back to, Fearless. Thanks so much for coming back on the show.
Marcel Marcondes: (01:58)
Thank you, Charles. Thanks for having me again. It's a great pleasure to join the show one more time.
Charles: (02:04)
It's really good to see you, and looking well. So tell us where you are? Where are you at the moment and who are you hanging out with? Who are you with?
Marcel Marcondes: (02:11)
I am in the epicenter of the chaos now, in Miami, Florida, with my wife and three little daughters.
Charles: (02:19)
And how's that? Are you homeschooling?
Marcel Marcondes: (02:21)
They're on vacation now. We've been here for a few months. So they were homeschooling before. It was interesting, interesting dynamic. Oh my God. Now they're on vacation, so it's a different kind of challenge, but, well, we cannot complain. They're healthy and we're being very careful. We're playing really safe. So, so far, so good.
Charles: (02:48)
I'm glad to hear that. It's a really tough dynamic for so many people with young children. I can't imagine how working full time and trying to take care of your children, from a mental, and a health standpoint, and an educational standpoint, it's got to be a stressful dynamic?
Marcel Marcondes: (03:03)
Yes, it is. Yeah. It's a blessing as well, because you can stay close to the family and for longer, right. But it brings together all that crazy dynamic, as you just said. So it's challenging. So, but I think in the end, it's all about seeing the glass half full, and trying to maximize the opportunities. That's what I think we're all trying to do, right. But yeah, in some moments it's crazy, and we laugh not to get nervous, right? When you're having a serious meeting and then the kids start running around and then get into the room where you are, the dog comes together, and there's that whole chaos in the middle of a serious, sometimes heated debate. But, yeah, but these are the fun things that we're going to remember once this whole thing is over.
Charles: (03:50)
Do you feel like you're, in some way, closer to your family as a result of this?
Marcel Marcondes: (03:54)
Yes I do. Yes, I do, Charles. Yes.
Charles: (04:00)
Yeah, and to a point, I'm sure the memories and the bonds that are being formed are unique, right? You wouldn't have had this opportunity to have built relationships in quite this way.
Marcel Marcondes: (04:11)
That is true. And that's what I try to maximize every day. Every little thing that I can do with them, that I was not used to doing before, I tried to take the opportunity.
Charles: (04:21)
How has your relationship with the people that work for you changed over the last, what is now, four months, I guess, since this all started? How do you feel differently about those relations? What have you observed that is different about those?
Marcel Marcondes: (04:33)
Well, everybody's in a different location. So I miss the human contact. I miss the chemistry and the energy of being together in the same room. So this is maybe the downside of the new reality. The upside is that things tend to get more organized, because we have no time to waste. Even if you need to call somebody to say, "Hi," you need to schedule a 30 minutes zone meeting to say, "Hi." Right? So the meetings are better organized. "These are the topics we have to cover. We have 30 minutes for that, one, two, three, that's it." So I've been thinking a lot about how to connect the best of both worlds as we move forward, to rise from this situation on a much better place.
Charles: (05:20)
Do you feel like you know people differently? Do you know them better?
Marcel Marcondes: (05:25)
Yes. In a sense, yes I do. Because I also see their dogs. I also see their kids. They have to expose a little bit of their personal lives as well, when they're talking. Right. So we definitely deleted that virtual line that we thought existed to separate the personal life from the professional life. Now it's officially just one thing, and this is the kind of persona that we're seeing from… that's what's going on with all of us. So yes. I'm seeing a different angle on the people, for sure.
Charles: (05:59)
And are you conscious of showing up differently?
Marcel Marcondes: (06:02)
Absolutely. Absolutely. And then this is something that I reflected about since the beginning. And then I said, "You know what, I'm going to embrace it. So I'm here wearing my hat. I'm not pretending like, "Okay, let's get dressed for this occasion." This is me doing what I'm doing, being where I am. And this is just the reality. I think we all feel lighter this way, and this is liberating, somehow.
Charles: (06:31)
Do you find people are responding to you differently as a result of the fact that you're showing other sides of yourself?
Marcel Marcondes: (06:38)
It's an interesting question, Charles. I don't know. I hope they are. The whole point, for me, is for us to have a more human relationship and that's, in the end, the bottom line for me, that's the bright side of this situation. I think maybe two big elements that I have in my mind every day. One is, we cannot miss the opportunity to learn from what's going on, so that we can get better. Better as a person, as a father, as a husband, as a friend, but also better as a professional. We're facing so many changes and so many disruptions. We got to learn from this and get better.
And then, within this topic of getting better, maybe the number one element that I have on my list is to be more human. So this is why I think I try to show up in a more, it's weird to say in a more authentic way, it's not that I was not authentic before, but even more, right? With being literally who I am, doing what I'm doing, being where I am. And I think people have the same tendency, because they're at home with their families, they're not on the stage of the office, right, performing as a role A, B or C. So I think we have a beautiful opportunity to have a more human relationship. And that's what I bet behind big time. I think this can take us to a much better place.
Charles: (08:10)
I'm sure you're right about that. It's interesting to see how people are reacting to the fact that the, to your point, we're showing up in a little bit more relaxed fashion, almost, right. There's less preparation, there's fewer airs and graces, we're not so concerned about the image that we're portraying and making sure that we're fully professional. We are just showing up as more fully-rounded human beings, with more flaws, I think, that are evident, and that clearly, to me, has changed in the dynamic between leaders and the people that work for them.
Marcel Marcondes: (08:40)
Completely agree.
Charles: (08:42)
Are you finding that the work is different? Is the thinking better in some way, or do you find people are challenged by the fact that you're not physically together? What are you seeing as the change in terms of how the work shows up, and how and how the thinking shows up?
Marcel Marcondes: (08:58)
I think we maybe had two phases, Charles, because we were hit by a massive disruption that none of us were expecting. So I think at the beginning you feel lost, and I think it's normal and pretty much everybody probably felt the same way. Like, "What is going on, and what do I do?" And so we, for example, we re-did all our plans. We re-did everything. So that was phase one, trying to find the right direction to take.
And then phase two was when we decided, which I think was the right decision to make, and maybe that's the most important role of a leader in moments like this, which is exactly to stick to the values, and to the principles, that you have. Because I think we all, although we think that we're changing and transforming things every year, we all have a natural tendency on playing by inertia. We do the same things all over again, year over year, at a certain extent, right?
So when you get hit by a massive disruption like this, first you feel lost, and then I think we need to stick to what you really believe, to the real principles and values that you have, because these are the elements that will guide you through reorganizing everything, but still on a direction that makes sense. Otherwise, you just get lost because you lose all those things that you are used to doing, they don't exist anymore. And so that's what I've been trying to grab and share with the team, and these are the elements I have been using to conduct all the conversations, our values and our principles. In our case, it's all about putting people first, adapting our business to better serve people out there, instead of trying to convince people out there to adapt to what we do and what we make.
And so that's the direction we took, and the more we got into understanding how the lives of people were changing, understanding their new needs, their new routines, the better we could pivot our plans with a clear direction. So that we could serve them better, so that we could adapt what we do to better address what they need. And this is what's taking the quality of the work to a better place by the minute, and we feel super excited about it because we feel like our brands and our plans are getting even more relevant than they were before. This is exactly the point that I do not want to let go once this chaos is over.
Charles: (11:31)
When we talked a few months ago, one of the things that struck me was how principled your leadership was, and how much you believed in the importance of having values, as you just described. Have any shown up as being more important than you already understood? Have any come to the fore, that you now realize, these are really, really essential from a leadership standpoint?
Marcel Marcondes: (11:55)
Yes. Which is maybe, simply put, it is all about listening. Because although we always liked to believe that we were consumer-centric, that we were moving fast, that we were evolving very fast, so on and so forth, this is a reality that put us to the test, in terms of our ability to listen to what people really need, to pay attention to the shifts of behavior, because everybody changes the way they live very fast. So it's all about listening first, observing people behavior first, and then we adjust and we reflect about everything we have afterwards, instead of thinking about our plans first. So this is something that became absolutely top priority, now, more than ever.
Charles: (12:41)
As you look forward… it's interesting, I ran into somebody last week, when I said to them, "Hey, how are you doing?" And he said, "I'm actually, honestly, I'm kind of depressed." He said, "I've talked to a lot of people who are feeling the same way." This was the Tuesday or Wednesday after 4th of July. And I said, "Oh, interesting. Why?" And he said, "I think so many of us had 4th of July as a reference point for, okay, it'll be summer. We'll have this celebration, we'll come through it, and we'll feel like things are getting better." And he said, "I think we came through it and realized things aren't getting better. In fact, this looks like it's going to be really a significant part of our lives for the foreseeable future. And so I'm feeling challenged by that, and depressed by that."
As we get through that phase, and you start to look ahead, you talked about the fact we've gone through two phases. What do you think the next phase looks like? What are you preparing for, over the next four to six months, through the rest of this year?
Marcel Marcondes: (13:36)
It's a very good question, Charles. We're getting ready for, one, living with uncertainty, because this is not going to go away. We're still going to have one decision in one week, and then something's going to happen, that decision's going, like, "Right, it's going to be allowed. Restaurants will be open." Restaurants are closed, right? "Bars are open." Bars are closed. So, uncertainty. So we have to have plans A, B and C. We cannot rely on the reality as it is today.
And then, the second point is to keep the radar super turned on, 24/7, to keep observing the shifts in people's behavior. Because depending on how fast we're going to evolve, getting out of this, this is what's going to dictate how people are going to live and therefore, how we are going to work. So that needs to be another clear priority.
And then, Charles, it's all about bringing people together, even my own people. That's one of the things that I paid most attention to, I think about it every day. How can I bring people together? Because I think that we're also having a crisis of points of view and perceptions, because there are so many disruptions going on that whenever you have more than three people, more than two people, more than one people together, you'll have a, "What about Black Lives Matter? What should we do about it? Are we doing enough? What about the actions? Why aren't we doing this, this and that?" So you always have somebody that is happy, somebody that is angry. And then, "Okay, and what about the Facebook boycott? Why in? Why out? Why this, why that? Should we go back to the office? Is it safe?" "I think it is." "I think it's an absurd, right?" "Should the schools reopen? I think, of course." "Oh, how come, you're crazy. This would be so dangerous."
So for everything you talk about, right, there's no easy conversation anymore. So it's very easy for people to fragment and for you to start losing this feeling of… this group conscious, and this team spirit. So bringing people together is something that we leaders need to think about every single day. And that's one thing that we're going to have as part of our top priorities for the next six months too, for sure. And this is why over communicating becomes a very tangible thing that we all, I guess, need to apply.
Charles: (16:15)
It's a great reference point. To that point, there are such extremes in the world at the moment, aren't there? Everything you've just described, my 84-year-old mother-in-law, who lives down in Florida, was screamed at, in a grocery store yesterday, because she was wearing a mask and she wanted to know why this 30-year-old guy wasn't wearing a mask. And he screamed at her that it was his absolute right to not wear a mask.
From a leadership standpoint, how do you find that you are navigating the fact that you have people working for you that might hold two such extreme views about an issue that has nothing to do with business per se, but is a massive stressor for people just trying to live their lives these days? How do you help people come together and find the middle ground at a time when you've got such extreme thinking?
Marcel Marcondes: (17:03)
I've been trying to focus on two elements, Charles. First is to make sure that they all, that we all, have a voice. I think what is tough is when you feel something, but you feel like you don't have the right channels to express yourself. So I think that just by expressing your point of view about whatever topic we have makes everybody feel like, "Okay, I am in a safe environment. I am in an environment that respects my points of view. And I need to get used to respecting somebody else's points of view as well, because this is how we live." So this discipline is vital. Everybody needs to feel like, "I can have a point of view and I can express myself."
And the second thing is to channel, as much as possible, those conversations into actions. So, and when we talk about actions, actions - I think this word has never been so important, because everybody's trying to surf the waves of the controversial topics to be on the news, right? And people are using those conversations as stages just to show up. But what really matters is for us to take actions, and this is what takes us back to the values and principles, because they need to calibrate the right actions. Otherwise, we step into a territory where we don't have credentials to play or to be at. So taking actions, channeling those conversations for action, is very important. And as we do that, we discover that some actions must be taken, but others we should avoid, exactly because we should not jump into all the conversations that are happening out there. There's too much noise. We need to separate the ones that really matter, the ones that really connect to what we stand for, and the ones that don't.
Charles: (18:50)
Yeah, I think that's so well said. It is such a difficult time to try and navigate this, but it really does require calmness and thought and reference points about what you think is important so that we don't just react emotionally in every situation.
I want to talk about the sudden, dramatic increase in awareness of, and expansion of, Black Lives Matter. How did that affect you when it first happened, on a personal basis? What was your reaction to it when it started to take on such an important role in society?
Marcel Marcondes: (19:30)
It was shocking, first because of how critical those events were, right? I think we had the sequence of events that are impossible to ignore, and that are shocking, right? They're shocking. So being a Latino, right, I always felt that I understood what some segments of society have to go through, because I feel it myself. I feel a lot of issues myself. And even in times like this, I have relatives, they cannot come to visit me because they don't have, they were not given a visa. I have a travel ban in practice now, to my country. So I have serious limitations to have contact with my family, for example, on top of the things that I live here.
So I thought I understood what some people go through, but this, first and foremost, showed me that we're talking about a totally different level. We're talking about death and murder. So this really shocked me, to see the intensity of what we're talking about. So that was my first reaction, and the point that I started to acknowledge that I have much more to learn and understand about this, and that's what I'm trying to do now.
And then the second point was, I turned on an alert inside of me, like, "I need to get much closer to the ones that I have in my team, to the Black people in my team, because I need to, first to listen to them, or to learn from them more, to give them better support, and to create new channels of conversation, so that again, we can drive actions." So I guess, those were the two key elements that struck me as this whole thing started.
Charles: (21:31)
Have you experienced racism yourself?
Marcel Marcondes: (21:34)
Yes.
Charles: (21:35)
And how do you navigate that sense of, I would imagine, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I would imagine it feels like personal injustice, to be separated in somebody's behavior and action towards you because of your race, because of your background. How do you balance, or how do you reconcile the fact that it has happened to you with the importance of what you've, as you just said, of from a leadership standpoint, and a human standpoint, doing everything you can to make sure it doesn't happen to other people?
Marcel Marcondes: (22:10)
Yeah. It goes back to having a human approach to these conversations, and to bring more humanity to our work relations. So that's all that I can think of now, and that's what I'm trying to bring to our routines, and to our everyday life. We need to feel like it's a more human environment, where we can be ourselves, where people feel welcome, where people feel like they don't need to hide, and they have a voice, they can express themselves. In the end, I really believe that this is the most important thing for us to do.
Of course, we always spend a lot of time talking about what should we do as a company, thinking about an external impact, right? Or, how can we better use our brands to have not only a better voice, but also to deliver more tangible actions, so that we can make a difference, leveraging from the power of our brands and the power of our company? That is extremely important, and we've been thinking and doing a lot on that front, although we know we need to do much more still. But I really believe that it all starts by making sure that we're going to provide and have a much more human work environment as we move forward. This is the beginning of everything. The company is made of people. The business is made of people, and this is a people matter. This is a human debate. So it all starts from there.
Charles: (23:32)
I saw about three or four years ago at a talent conference, two members of the Wieden+Kennedy talent team from Portland came along and gave a presentation about racism in the workplace. And they put together a really powerful film in which one of their Latino employees talked about the fact that, in this person's case, they had never felt like they could show up as a true version of themselves at work, that they felt like they were essentially two different people, the person who was at home, and then the person, the version of themselves, that they had to present at work in order to fit in.
I'm struck by the fact that as there is now a much greater awareness of, and feels like a much greater intent by businesses of all sizes and shapes to bring greater awareness, and focus on eliminating racism, reducing racism, of having populations, staffing, that is representative of culture and society and so on. One of the things that is not yet being addressed enough, I don't think, is that it's obviously important to be able to say, "Look, our talent and our employment numbers from a ratio standpoint now reflects society."
That's important, but not enough conversation's happening around, how do you create cultures within an organization that is accepting and supportive of every different kind of race? So, how do you create a culture in which a Latino can show up and be who they are, right, all the time, in which a Black person can show up and be a Black person? So it is not a white culture that is accepting of other people, or allows other people in, but it is, in fact, a culture that's capable of supporting all races in their own rights, through their own lenses. How do you go about making sure that the culture that you're leading is welcoming and embracing of a wide range of different cultures?
Marcel Marcondes: (25:35)
Well, it's a great point, one more time, Charles, and I think it all starts by bringing what you said to life as a principle, this needs to be a conversation that has to get connected to our culture. If we address this as another crisis, only, this is going to come and go without making a big difference, right? And this is why people used to stick to the numbers, to be defensive, "But I have X percent people of this, and Y percent people of that."
I do want to have a… I do believe that the marketing team should reflect, as much as possible, the diversity of the consumer base out there, and that's what we have as a philosophy as we build our team. However, I am intentionally avoiding to talk numbers because this is the immediate defensive approach that people take. I think what you said is what really matters, to make sure that this conversation gets connected to our culture. And then, for example, I think that a decision that we had as a company was to make D&I and tangible actions about it. Part of our leadership evaluations every year, it's now part of it. So it's literally part of our culture now.
And then we're incentivizing the creation of groups within the team, so that the Asians can get together and talk about what's going on freely. And everybody knows it exists. And it's part of our routine and part of our life that we embrace and incentivize. So we have Asian groups, we have Black groups, we have LGBTQ groups, and Latino groups, and from there you go, so that people can find others that are going through the same situation, they can talk and propose things.
And then we, by doing that, we learn every day, we learn more. We bring the conversations to the big forums with much more agility. We take more seriously, all these points. I think we're evolving in a much better fashion, and much faster, because people are having a voice and because we're incentivizing them to speak up, and we're taking action and learning.
But in summary, I think you nailed it. It's all about making sure it becomes part of the culture, and not another point of the agenda that you need to address, and then you turn the page and move on.
Charles: (28:04)
I think that your point about the numbers is so important, because you see companies racing to publish their numbers. And if you look at those numbers, you really have to question, when you look at the columns that say, "Percentage of people in a leadership role who are Black, or Latino, or LGBTQ, you have to really question about, how are you defining leadership for instance, right? Is a leadership role somebody who has the ability to tell a copywriter what to work on? Is that leadership? Or is leadership somebody who has the ability to change the direction of a company and the decisions it makes?
And so, if you start from a false premise in order to make the numbers look better, you're not actually working very hard to solve the problem, or not hard enough to solve the real fundamental problem, which is, if we don't want to be having this conversation in five years, if we want to be living in a society that is truly welcoming and supportive of all, we have to be really honest now, when you're running a business, in order to say, "We are here. We are not 20% better off. We are really here. This is the gap we have to fill. This is the work we have to do." You have to solve the real problems.
Marcel Marcondes: (29:11)
Absolutely. This is the more challenging route for sure, right? It's the deepest route, it takes longer, it's tougher, but it's definitely the right one. I completely agree with you.
Charles: (29:24)
Two last questions for you. First is, what have you learned about yourself in the last, what is it, four, four and a half months?
Marcel Marcondes: (29:32)
I learned, first, that I have a lot to learn-
Charles: (29:38)
Haven't we all?
Marcel Marcondes: (29:39)
Yeah, right. I've always known that, but now I know that I have even more to learn, right? And I guess I'm learning as well. I'm starting to have even more confidence in the power of behaving as a human in the workplace, in driving all of our actions, our plans, having humanity as a central point. That's for me, maybe then the number one thing. We were talking about it before, but I guess now more than ever, it's crystal clear that that's the way to go, and this is what matters in the world. This is what matters to people. Therefore, this is what has to matter the most for the business, as well. We need to build brands that are human, that see consumers as people. And we need to add value to them in their lives, and that's the future of brands. That's the future of business, because that's what people need.
Charles: (30:47)
So well said. And last question, what are you afraid of?
Marcel Marcondes: (30:52)
I'm afraid of the situation getting too long to go away, because we're all going crazy at a certain level, right, as well. And I'm afraid that, that's one thing, two fears. That's one. Second is that we miss the opportunity to learn from the situation, in case it goes away fast, there's a risk we will forget about it and just get back to normal. Normal should not exist anymore. We should be much better than the old normal, moving forward. And that's something that I fear, that I think about every day, we need to make sure that we will learn and get better.
And the third thing is actually that the world gets even crazier, and situations like this start to happen more often, because it seems like we're exposed to these risks in a crazy way. So I just fear that this is the first of many, and I really hope, of course, that it's not.
Charles: (31:54)
Yeah, we're all desperate for some kind of stability in some part of our lives, aren't we?
Marcel Marcondes: (31:58)
Exactly.
Charles: (31:59)
Marcel, thank you so much for coming back on the show. I think your voice is so important, now more than ever, and I really appreciate you sharing it today.
Marcel Marcondes: (32:06)
Charles, it really is always a big pleasure to talk to you. Your approach is totally different, and that this is what I think makes your show and this conversation so special. And I appreciate, big time, the invitation one more time. It’s always a pleasure to be here.
Charles: (32:23)
Likewise. Please stay well, my friend.
Marcel Marcondes: (32:25)
Stay well, thank you so much.
Charles: (32:27)
Thank you.
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