Leading In The Time Of Virus
Welcome to Fearless Creative Leadership - and with this episode we mark the three year anniversary of the podcast. Thank you for sharing the journey so far, for your support and your feedback.
When I started this podcast in 2017, none of us could have forecast the state of the world three years later.
One thing has become obvious - creative and innovative thinking has become even more critical as we start to build a new future.
And leaders who can unlock creativity and innovation will be the most valuable and sought after resource for every business.
This episode is our tenth of Season 2 - which we’ve sub-titled, “Leading In The Time Of Virus”.
These are shorter conversations in which we discover how some of the world’s most innovative and creative leaders are adapting their leadership to our new reality.
These people are among the world’s best problem solvers.
This episode is a conversation with Rosemarie Ryan, the co-founder of co:collective. co: describes themselves as a creative and strategic transformation partner for purpose-led businesses.
They are some of the best strategic problem solvers and business builders I know.
Rose talked about creating a sense of community within your company, about being willing to confront your company’s biggest problems out loud, and explains why listening is the most important leadership attribute.
Here’s Rosemarie Ryan.
Charles: (1:35)
Rosemarie, welcome back to Fearless. Thanks so much for coming back on the show.
Rosemarie Ryan: (1:39)
My pleasure.
Charles: (1:41)
Tell us where you are and who you are quarantining with.
Rosemarie Ryan: (1:45)
I'm quarantining with my husband, my daughter and my dog in Shelter Island, New York.
Charles: (1:52)
And what are the things like out there?
Rosemarie Ryan: (1:54)
Quiet, very quiet.
Charles: (1:56)
Good.
How's your business doing? How's co: doing?
Rosemarie Ryan: (1:59)
Good. I would say that, you know, we are a project based business for the most part. So normally I can see four or five months ahead. I can probably see one and a half, two months ahead right now in terms of where the business is taking us. But yeah. So I mean, I think really understanding what's going on, how could it happen on the other side of this is where we're, you know, kind of focusing our energies and our efforts.
So yeah, so all in all, I think better than most. And I would say that we’re also fortunate enough not to have clients right now who are in the middle of dealing with the worst of it themselves, the airlines, the hotel companies. We're not, most of our clients right now are not in that space. So mostly in the technology and the health space is where our clients are and they have not been as adversely hit as some of those other industries.
Charles: (2:51)
How far out are you looking? I was talking to a mutual friend of ours, Emma Cookson, and she was talking to me about a company she'd come across who had broken their view of the future into three distinct teams who are responsible for different timelines. There's one team looking at the two month window, there's one looking at six month window, and there's one looking at 12 months out. How far out are you guys looking?
Rosemarie Ryan: (3:11)
So I think you got to look immediate term, make sure you're taking care of kind of business and you know, and that is actually critical because most of the folks on the ground have never experienced anything like this before. So getting your own team and some of our client's team through this is important. And I think you have to look ... I mean I guess I would say six months. I don't know that 12 months is probably too far for us. I would say six months into the future, which is like how are we taking care of business right now? What are we thinking about in terms of shoring it up for the next three, four months and then six months from now, what might that mean? And I think that a lot of the things we're learning now and in the next three months will inform what our business is shaped like a little bit, I would say, in six months from now.
So we're doing, I mean, shorter, faster sprints with most of our clients. So there are, you know, people can really see where they're at one week, two weeks, three weeks, four weeks out as opposed to the usual 12 week projects. So, I think that's actually working really well for us because I think communication goes up and the deliverables are clear and everyone knows exactly how they're measuring the success on that particular project. So I see more of those. We've also been offering folks the ability to do a story doing session with us, a two hour story doing session where we put that kind of, we put that out onto LinkedIn into our networks and said, you know, "If you want to a two hour session, an hour to kind of talk about what do you think your story is and then an hour maybe to talk about what exactly you need to do with that right now,” for free.
So we've been offering that and that we got tremendous response from that. So both from clients, immediate past clients and some net new clients who are dealing with issues. So that's been great on a couple of fronts. We're meeting new people, but I think we're also learning about more and more businesses and kind of what they're doing and then how to apply that to others. So, you get creative in these times. So I feel like, I think we're going to come out even better probably on the other side of it. I think we'll have learned new things.
We also spent lots of time on planes and in other markets. We really, we're collaborative by nature. That's a big part of our model and we're learning that you can actually collaborate with Zoom and some of those other tools. So we're using more and more, experimenting with new things and again, that for the most part is going well. So I don't think we'll be spending quite as many ... I don't think people would need or won’t feel the need to be on planes as much even though they have no desire to, you know, they did have, even if it was possible, I think we're going to probably ... that will shift a little, which I think is good.
Charles: (5:47)
The idea of offering services or relationship foundation for free has obviously always been ... I don't know if controversial is quite the right word, but there's been people who've had a mixed point of view about that, haven't they? Do you think that's one of those things that is likely to continue going forward? I mean, do you see that as a long term business building strategy?
Rosemarie Ryan: (6:08)
You know, I think it depends on how much we're giving away for free. Right? I would say that, you know, in the old agency model, pitching for four weeks, giving away all your strategic thinking and your ideas. I don't know that that's smart or advisable
Charles: (6:25)
Soul destroying in fact, soul destroying, in some cases.
Rosemarie Ryan: (6:28)
Yes. But I do think getting, you know, starting a dialogue, giving people an idea of how you think and the kind of team you can put around a table. It's very helpful. So even though we don't pitch, I think we always spend a lot of time being really thoughtful about what the engagement is going to look like and how we want to engage with folks. And when we find ourselves in a room with those clients, I would say 9 times out of 10 we get that business because it really is truly a dialogue, and they see the dynamic of the team.
You know, clients always say they weren't buying work, they were buying the chemistry and the kind of the old agency days. I think that's still true. You've got to be able to have a kind of conversation, and people need to feel good about what that communication, what that teamwork feels like. So, I don't know whether it's giving it for free. It's more of like, let's get to know each other. Let's spend a couple of hours with no real agenda other than kind of where you go from here, where you might go from here, and let's just get to know each other and have a conversation. That's been helpful.
Charles: (7:36)
And what's important is of course you're doing it on your terms as opposed to their terms. You're creating the framework and saying, "We are willing to and happy to have a two hour conversation based on these parameters."
Rosemarie Ryan: (7:45)
Yes, exactly.
Charles: (7:47)
So you're controlling the investment.
Rosemarie Ryan: (7:48)
Yeah, that's right. And I think that's also important as well. And so, you know, we have to discipline ourselves because, you know, I'd say if we had a fault, we're kind of all A types. We want to make everything perfect. You know, if you try and tailor every single one of these engagements, that could be very difficult. But we, you know, we have a quick questionnaire, “What is it that you need to kind of focus and put your energy into?" We have like you know, a kind of a way of kind of managing that conversation, which we share ahead of time to make sure that's kind what everyone's looking for and we don't tailor it a huge amount because the tailoring happens in the conversation, actually. I mean, like you go down different paths, as long as it's like tight enough to be usable and flexible enough to actually be meaningful, then you find yourself in, you know ... and I can't even tell you how much fun it's been. I mean, everyone is really enjoying meeting these new people talking about different kind of like kind of problems and solutions. It's been great
Charles: (8:43)
And you must be meeting a lot of new people and finding out which ones you are like minded with, which is obviously to your earlier point about chemistry, such a fundamentally important part of your business.
Rosemarie Ryan: (8:53)
Completely.
Charles: (8:54)
You've said that you're a collaborative, and obviously you are fundamentally as a company. How are you maintaining and enhancing that level of collaboration while everybody is hanging out at home?
Rosemarie Ryan: (9:05)
So I think first of all you've got to have a kind of sense of team, right? So with established relationships, it's easier because everyone kind of knows each other. It's kind of a more of a natural rhythm. You know, I guess through the tools. Understanding what Zoom is, understanding some of the other tools that we have on the table. I'm trying ... I think it's called ... why can't I think of it? It begins with M. But it's another really interesting tool where people can be kind of like breaking out into groups, building like, you know, notes and sessions and then coming back and presenting. So it's been fine. I think the… for us it's how we as a team at co: collaborate with each other, right? So keeping the team spirit alive and making sure that everybody has an opportunity either privately or publicly to talk about how they're feeling and what's going on has been essential.
So we have, you know, with a core company, we have a Tuesday morning meeting, which we always have. It's called “Coffee,” where we spend half an hour talking about whatever's on people's minds. Sometimes we have a presentation, and then on Thursday morning we do the same thing, although that tends to be more open ended. And then each person inside the company has a person that they can talk to and that they check in with once a week because what we discovered early on is that not everybody likes things the same way, right? Some people are like really comfortable talking in a big group of people and asking tough questions. Others much more comfortable speaking kind of one-on-one. And so you know, the whole extrovert-introvert thing has been a really interesting process. It's kind of, we've gone through this because you know, people communicate differently.
So you do that. And then we also have a thing called “Community Service,” which in the office it's really about making sure you're doing your part keeping the office running, and everyone gets assigned, everyone in the company one day a week. So now everybody has to find a way to bring joy to the community. And that's been so much fun. You know, like first of all somebody got all the baby pictures and everyone had to guess who was who and you know. So we've done a lot of fun around that and that's been kind of great. And so we all got to know each other, I'd say, in some ways better than, you know, when we were in the office.
Charles: (11:20)
I was going to ask you about that because one of the things that I've heard from a lot of people is that people are taking more time at the beginning of sessions to ask legitimately, "How are you? How are you doing?" People really genuinely interested in that answer. It's not cursory when you walk into a conference room. It's actually a real engagement and people are looking each other in the eye. You're finding the same thing?
Rosemarie Ryan: (11:38)
Absolutely. But again, when you ask that question, not everyone is going to feel good about answering it. So the other thing we do is we send a survey out once a week just saying like five questions, "How are you doing, from great to feeling really overwhelmed? And then are there any questions you have for us?" Which we then answer on the Tuesday morning coffee thing. You know, because they have some real questions like, "What's happening? How is business? What’s it going, you know, like are we going to be fired? Is there going to be a furlough? What does all of this mean?" Because they're seeing all of their friends dealing with very different circumstances. So we've been completely transparent with everyone about exactly what's happening and we answer the questions we can answer, and unlike some people, like our president, we don't answer the questions that we don't have the answers to.
And I think as a leadership challenge, listening more and being able to also say, "You know what? We don't know. Here's our best guess. But it is just a guess. So there are no guarantees here. But here's what we're putting in place. Here's what we're trying to do together with you. Here's how you can help. And soon as anything changes, we'll let you know." And so that's been, that's been great actually. People like not knowing is much worse, you know. And also for me, knowing that I don't actually have the answers, that I can't tell you that it's all going to be great in six weeks or twelve weeks because who knows.
Charles: (13:07)
I'm glad you brought up listening because I think it's one of the most underrated leadership skills around. It's clearly one that is being enhanced and developed through this entire set of circumstances. How is leadership showing up to you? What have you become more conscious of in your own leadership in the last few weeks?
Rosemarie Ryan: (13:25)
I think, you know, actually asking questions and spending, you know, really giving myself the time to listen to how people are answering them, listening to the verbal and the nonverbal ways people have of communicating, which I think I've always done. But that becomes even more important when you're not in a room with someone. Personally, I'm pretty intuitive and I can read a room fairly well. You have to work extra hard when you're on a Zoom call to really hear what people are saying or not saying, as the case maybe. So, yeah, I mean, and just getting comfortable with not having the answers. It's hard, but it's, you know, it's important.
Charles: (14:08)
I think that is such an important kind of reference point because you're right. People who are instinctive, people whose leadership instincts are very tightly attuned, are really good, as you say, sitting in a room and reading the room and they're conscious of little movements in body language and little shifts of expression and they're seeing this out of the corner of their eye. And when you're sitting on a Zoom call, you miss an enormous amount of that, don't you? Because if you've got a lot of people on the screen, you can't see them in much detail. If you've got the screen set up so that the speaker is coming to the fore you can't see what everybody else is doing and how they're reacting. Yeah, it's a very important point, actually. Not one I've heard anybody else raise. And so the importance of getting past the two dimensional layer and finding a way to create that connection and maintain that connection is so important these days.
Rosemarie Ryan: (14:57)
Yeah. Asking more. Just asking more out loud and then also sometimes sending a chat to someone saying, "Hey listen, I noticed you said that. What does that look like or feel like to you?" Because again, not everybody feels good saying things out loud in front of ten people. Other people need to have a more one-on-one dialogue. So that's the other thing, because you know I am, you'll be surprised to hear, naturally an extrovert, but really understanding, you know, how it feels. I mean, and Ty actually who's my partner is an introvert, so we kind of communicated a lot, but really focusing on those people who are more introverted and making sure they have the space and the time, because as hard as that is in a room, it's even harder on a Zoom.
Charles: (15:39)
Yeah, that's right. I think that's exactly right. How are you empowering people? How are you giving people room to be able to take the initiative?
Rosemarie Ryan: (15:54)
So we have like, you know, so obviously net new business is an importance. So you know, these sessions that I was talking about, we're running, I'd say, probably running 10 of them a week. And we have small essentially assigned against each one depending on their passion and their skill-set. So they are empowered with delivering that session without, you know, a partner or a leadership person being engaged and they are loving it and they are shining. I have to say, it's just amazing to see it. And I guess we're, you know that we're also saying to them, you have, I mean our business is primarily the leaders chip who's bringing in the net new business. We're saying, "Guys, who do you know in your network that you think we can be helpful and useful to at this moment in time? And feel free to reach out."
And so everyone, I mean, people are coming together in remarkable ways so that, you know ... I think they are all ... and I think everyone understands that we're all supporting each other as a community. So we're in this together is what I would say. And so I think that creating that sense of ownership, not just of the problem, but the solution has I think been really liberating. I mean, we have a great team anyway, but it's been really wonderful to see how they're all kind of pulling together through this and taking care of each other, you know, not just their clients.
Charles: (17:15)
So more sort of peer to peer responsibility.
Rosemarie Ryan: (17:18)
Yes. Much more. Yeah.
Charles: (17:21)
Yeah. It's bringing out the humanity of so many people, isn't it?
Rosemarie Ryan: (17:24)
Yeah, it's kind of great to see. And then also we have people in different circumstances, right? So I have, you know, I have parents who've got kids and they're at home with their partner who also is working. That's seems really, really stressful. Then you've got folks like myself, which is much less stressful. You know, my daughter's 21. She's an adult, you know. And then I've got other folks who are, you know, young and living in apartments with flatmates who they're not necessarily particularly close to or are not being very responsible. So again, helping them all navigate those situations has been a big part of it.
Charles: (18:04)
What are you learning about yourself?
Rosemarie Ryan: (18:08)
So I actually really miss being in a room with people. I miss it a lot. I mean, you know, I find these, I'm someone who is always, when I'm in a room focused on what's going on in that room. So Zoom isn't terrible for me in that regard because it's just about getting even more focused. But actually being in the room with people is hard and yeah, and also I'm someone who kind of works and thinks a lot. So when you're just in one space. I miss going from one space, not even realizing, going out to grab your lunch or that commute to and from work. Those things are so critical to kind of get out of your head and just you know, and experience something else. So just not being out and experiencing other things I miss terribly and just being with other people. I get my energy from people, and I love my daughter and my husband, but I'm probably taking too much energy from them right now.
Charles: (19:06)
And how have you seen your leadership improve do you think?
Rosemarie Ryan: (19:10)
I guess the listening part, again. I keep coming back to that, but I think it's been fundamental for me. Taking a deep breath, not letting ... I mean, I guess the other thing is, you know, the not knowing, the anxiety that comes with that, just kind of taking a deep breath and realizing that I'm actually not in control of a lot of this and so I need to focus on the things that I can actually be useful and helpful on and not worry about the stuff that's out of my control and giving some of that over to other people.
Charles: (19:44)
What do you think is going to be different about the way we do business going forward? What do you think is really going to stick or evolve out of this?
Rosemarie Ryan: (19:54)
So I think there's a belief that we all have to be in a same place to get things done. I certainly think I have that belief because it's my preferred mode of operating. Right? I don't think that that actually is true. This has been proven that it's true. I mean, you need some degree of it, but I think whether it's clients working with, you know, with the companies they work with or us working with each other, we don't actually all need to be in the same place. We can actually get a lot done and probably be more productive, I would say. So that's the other thing. I think everyone's more productive on some level. Meetings start on time, they end on time. Everyone's clear about what the decisions are that need to be made in that moment. There's no passing each other in the hall. I think people are over-communicating and I think that's a good thing, right? Because nothing gets lost in translation.
Yeah. I would say that we don't all have to be together to get to great work. It's okay for people to be in different times and spaces and it can be as good if not better. You're not kind of somehow ... it's not one level less good, you know. There's no real degradation. I suspected there was degradation. I believed, I had a bias that there was degradation when you're away from people, and it's actually, I don't think true.
Charles: (21:12)
It's interesting, isn't it? I hadn't really thought about this until now, but you're right. One of the problems that businesses have is ending meetings on time. That's one of the reasons why people get held up, right, and delay, and there's something so clean and simple about just clicking the screen off. Right? And we all do it at the same time. Okay. Meetings over. We don't feel embarrassed or uncomfortable about it, we have to edge out, or, "Sorry, I've got this thing." We're all equal from that standpoint. I wonder whether that will actually create a different emotional reality for all of us saying, "It's fine. We can all leave this meeting on time without offending each other.” We just go, ‘click’.
Rosemarie Ryan: (21:45)
Yeah. That's just how it works.
Charles: (21:47)
That's just how it works. Yeah. That's very interesting. Last question for you. What are you afraid of?
Rosemarie Ryan: (21:54)
Well, the unknown. I think like most people, I'm afraid of what I don't know or what's on the other side of this. But you know, my belief about that is, I can't control that. I just can control what's happening here and now. And the other thing, you know, when I'm fearful of what the unknown or the future, for me that involves, I go to the kind of worst possible place, look that straight in the eye, realize that actually it's survivable and come right back again so I can focus on what's happening now and not worry about ... if you worry too much about the future and it's important to have a plan, but if you spend all your time there, you're not going to get there. You've got, you know, and I think we live in a world that's that way these days.
I mean, you know, the future was actually in some ways much more predictable. It's been not that predictable for a very long time. Right now it's particularly difficult, but I think that's just the reality of the world we're living in today. So, you know, that's why for me a 12 month plan, that sounds nice. I think having an immediate one, a three month and a six month plan in our business, and every business is different, is the right focus for us.
Charles: (23:07)
I do think one of the things I spend a lot of time working with my clients on is help trying to encourage them to confront the biggest problem they fear, their greatest fear, actually, because if you do, you'll find it wasn't ever as bad as you thought it was going to be.
Rosemarie Ryan: (23:19)
Absolutely.
Charles: (23:19)
And there is a way through it, the other side, which will make you feel a lot better and empowered, actually.
Rosemarie Ryan: (23:25)
So I think it's confronting it, Charles. It's also actually saying it out loud because I think we all kind of confront it in our own ways, but we don't always deal with it. When you actually say it, you're like, "Oh, okay. So I've said it and the world hasn't fallen apart." Right? And once you do that, then you're right. You can then focus on overcoming whatever those things are that are going to get you to that place.
Charles: (23:49)
I think that's true. I think if you can say it out loud, you tend to do that in the cold light of day, whereas otherwise it shows up at four o'clock in the morning confronting you, right? That's a much harder place to deal with it from a calm, rational way. Absolutely.
Rose, thank you so much for taking the time. I know you're really busy and I appreciate you coming back on the show and sharing your insights.
Rosemarie Ryan: (24:10)
Thank you, Charles. Lovely, as always. I'll speak to you soon.
Charles: (24:12)
I hope so. See you soon.
Rosemarie Ryan: (24:13)
Alright. Stay safe. Bye bye.
—————
Let us know if there are other guests you’d like to hear from, and areas you’d like to know more about or questions you have.
And don’t forget to share Fearless with your friends and colleagues.
If you’d like more, go to fearlesscreativeleadership.com where you’ll find the audio and the transcripts of every episode.
If you’d like to know more about our leadership practice, go to thelookinglass.com where you’ll also find links to articles I’ve written for Fast Company and for the Profitable Creativity blog on creative leadership.
Fearless is produced by Podfly. Frances Harlow is the show’s Executive Producer. Josh Suhy is our Producer and Editor. Sarah Pardoe is the Media Director for Fearless.
Thanks for listening.
