"The Questioning Leader"
I recorded this episode just over 2 week ago. Before the world changed. It’s a conversation with Madeleine Grynsztejn - the Pritzker Director of the Museum of Contemporary Art in Chicago.
Over the last few days, I’ve thought a lot about whether to publish this episode because so much of what we talked about seems at first glance to be from a different reality.
But I think, it’s an important interview for a couple of critical reasons.
Madeleine talks about the role of art and the role of museums in both reflecting and shaping society. About the importance of constantly looking for the things that we don’t know, for breaking our own assumptions of what happens next.
Suddenly, that feels like the most important question for us to start raising as leaders.
"FEARLESS CREATIVE LEADERSHIP" PODCAST - TRANSCRIPT
Episode 116: "The Questioning Leader" - Madeleine Grynsztejn
Hi. I’m Charles Day. And since last week’s episode the world has changed.
Fearless is going to change too. Starting next week, we’re going to have conversations with leaders about how they’re adapting. What are the most important problems to solve. Where will innovation and creative thinking come from while teams are separated. What are the good things that are coming out of all of this.
The episodes will be 20-25 minutes and we’ll continue to explore both the practical and personal sides of leadership.
My hope is that these conversations will provide help and hope. That the community of listeners that Fearless has established will add to the conversations and that together we will emerge as better leaders and better companies and a better society.
Humanity has never been in greater need of innovation and creative thinking. The world is different and will never be the same as it was even two weeks ago.
As my dear friend, Karim Bartoletti said to me from his locked-down apartment in Milan yesterday, we have a chance to build a better future. An opportunity to reset society. To reflect and then to act.
What we do with that opportunity will be enormously influenced by people like you. The listeners of this podcast.
So, please reach out and share what you’re learning. If you have suggestions of people you’d like to hear from, let me know that too.
We can be better for having gone through this. It’s up to us.
For this week, I’m going to post an episode I recorded just over 2 week ago with. It’s a conversation with Madeleine Grynsztejn - the Pritzker Director of the Museum of Contemporary Art in Chicago.
Over the last few days, I’ve thought a lot about whether to publish this episode because so much of what we talked about seems at first glance to be from a different reality.
But I think, it’s an important interview for a couple of critical reasons.
Madeleine talks about the role of art and the role of museums in both reflecting and shaping society. About the importance of constantly looking for the things that we don’t know, for breaking our own assumptions of what happens next.
Suddenly, that feels like the most important question for us to start raising as leaders.
This episode is called, “The Questioning Leader”.
“So I'm always, always asking myself and my team, "Okay, what is the potential unintended consequence of that?" And- And let's get ready for that. Let's understand that.”
Madeleine has been the Director of The MCA Chicago for 12 years. She thinks about art and its role in society four-dimensionally.
She thinks about museums the same way.
In the last two weeks, some of our conversation will feel like it is from another era. Because it is.
But regardless of how much we flatten the curve or don’t, a new society will form out of the one we are leaving behind.
It is the way of human beings to evolve and adapt. And art and museums will be both a provocation for and a reflection of the decisions we make.
Every decision has consequences.
It’s important to worry about the intended ones.
But the unintended ones can matter just as much.
And sometimes more.
So whatever decisions you’re faced with today, and in the weeks to come, take a moment and flip it around. What do you see on the other side. And how might that be worse - or better - than what you were hoping for.
Here’s Madeleine Grynsztejn.
Charles: (3:26)
Madeleine, welcome to Fearless. Thank you for joining me.
Madeleine Grynsztejn:
Thank you, Charles, it's great to be here.
Charles:
When did creativity first show up in your life?
Madeleine Grynsztejn:
Creativity first showed up in my life pretty much, as I'm told, from birth. Born into a family, that,was not at all artistically inclined. So, I was a bit of a mystery and there were no tools, so to speak, immediately at hand. So I ended up making a lot of crayon drawings inside my father's books and finding out that that might not be the surface that one should first go for.
Charles:
(laughs)
Madeleine Grynsztejn:
Fast forward, I was born into an oil family. You know, like a military family, lots of moving around. And my first, encounter with a work of art was when I was 11 years old. We moved from Venezuela to London and I was taken on a school field trip to the National Gallery. And, I saw a Monet. I saw an impressionist painting of a bridge, a Japanese style bridge, arcing over a pond, which,is of course an image of Monet's Giverny. And, it completely, completely riveted me. And what was exceptional about it to me was that, if I went very, very close up to it, it became strokes of paint, and then as I moved away from it, it consolidated itself into a recognizable image. And I thought that was really, really trippy and fantastic.
It absolutely moved me, and so I was pretty much on that path from that moment on. And also for that reason continue to be in my... into my adulthood extraordinarily grateful for the platform and the opportunity that is a museum.
Charles: (5:20)
So at 11 years old you had the instinct to stand in an art gallery and get so close to the piece of art that you could actually see how it was formed, at least the medium that it represented. And also to recognize instinctively to stand far enough back and see it through a different lens. That was instinctive to you.
Madeleine Grynsztejn:
Yes. And the things that I think it points to, that I continue to be smitten by, is that if you go up to a work of art, which everybody should, you will stand in the place where the artist stood while they were making it. And so, you can literally step into the shoes of a creative person and see the strokes that they... that they left behind, and see how something is made, is constructed. And then when you move away from it, you enter into literally a public point of view. You enter into a position that is shared by others, and then you're looking at something that is a kind of consensus. That everybody has agreed is a bridge spanning- spanning a pond. And everybody has looked at, and the consensus of art history, the public, art criticism, has decided that this is a masterpiece.
So you are already experiencing the things that I love about art, which is that it sits at the intersection of private experience and public experience.
Charles:
Mm.
Madeleine Grynsztejn:
And even better, you are the agent for that move between that private and public experience. So again, what I love about art is that it gives you the tools for agency.
Charles:
What is art?
Madeleine Grynsztejn:
Art is a visual inquiry into the world. Art is the lens through which I have chosen to understand the world for my lifetime, and an invitation to understand the world perhaps beyond our immediate circumstances and potential blindspots. Art is a flashlight, and it's also, a location from which you can see the near future.
Charles:
And what is it able to do? What is its potential?
Madeleine Grynsztejn:
Art has the potential to shift your perspective. Art has the potential, quite literally visually, but then also by extension philosophically, morally, ethically. So art is an invitation to look at other perspectives than your own, and art connects you to other cultures, other people, and other ways of thinking. And so for me, I see it as a growth mechanism for humanity.
Charles:
Did you ever want to be an artist yourself? Oh-
Madeleine Grynsztejn:
Oh yes.
Charles:
Yes?
Madeleine Grynsztejn:
I began, my career as an artist. I mean, that was really the track, partly because I didn't even know a curatorial profession existed. But it was very clear to me from early on that art was what spoke to me and how I wanted to express myself.
So, originally my professional track, if you will, my college career, was that I went to school to become a visual artist. And I was in school as a major in painting and print making, and then found out within my first year that I was a really shitty painter and print maker.
Charles:
(laughs)
Madeleine Grynsztejn:
But I was a very good art historian, because part of the major required you to take an art history class. And here I will show you my age, so the minute that I walked in and the lights went down and the slides went up, I was completely hooked. And I realized that's how I wanted to comprehend the world around me for the rest of my life.
Charles:
How did you know you weren't a good artist? What was the reference point?
Madeleine Grynsztejn:
The thing is that what that track really taught me, and that I still lean on, is that I learned how very, very hard it is to be a really good artist. it is extraordinarily difficult to create an original voice, an original offering, that at the same time has universal resonance. It's a really fine line to walk. Most art is redundant. And that's an important role that it plays in terms of consolidating an understanding of art history. But it's not the breakthrough. And I was interested, for better or worse, in breakthrough moments, and I found those in art history.
Charles: (9:54)
So that was the standard you set for yourself.
Madeleine Grynsztejn:
It was. And so, I went to... Again, because for lack of knowledge, I entered an art history track, to become the greatest Manet scholar you've ever laid eyes on. So I went to Columbia to study with a preeminent Manet scholar and I still can tell a fake Manet from a real Manet drawing. And then I switched actually to American history, 19th century landscape painting, for a variety of reasons.
But the point is that I reached a point where I felt that I was throwing everybody else's ideas into a Cuisinart and I kept pressing blend and I wasn't finding my voice. So I asked myself, "Where can I go where I can satisfy this need to contribute something original? To contribute to the conversation?" And that naturally led me to new art, to contemporary art. So that's how I ended up with a fellowship at the Whitney and then subsequently curatorial jobs until 12 years ago when I became a director.
Charles:
Have you always been intention oriented? Has it always been important to you to understand clearly, "I am striving for this goal. This is my ambition specifically"?
Madeleine Grynsztejn:
I don't think I was that clear. I am that tunnel-visioned. I am someone who is, very determined and who is, I think in some cases productively narrow i in her aspirations. What really was the driver in- in my memory was the need to understand something comprehensively. And, adulthood has shown me that that's not possible.
Charles:
(laughs)
Madeleine Grynsztejn:
And that that's okay. But that was a rough one (laughs) as a person, as a matter of growth.
I also want to circle back to curating a little bit, because I want to say that I miss curating, of course, but I love directing more than I miss-
Charles:
Mm.
Madeleine Grynsztejn:
... curating.
And I became more and more interested in curating an institution as I developed my curatorial trajectory.
Charles:
What I'm struck by is this contrast between, the world in which you live, the art world, which is expansive, open to interpretation, constantly changing, constantly evolving, you have to be, especially in your position, aware of and seeking out new artists, new forms of art and so on. And combining and contrasting that with what you've just described as your tunnel vision, the ability to be hyper focused.
Madeleine Grynsztejn:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Charles:
How do you navigate those two paradigms? Because it sits at the heart, really, of how creative businesses have to exist. This ability to unlock innovative and original thinking, but also apply it with real focus towards an intended outcome towards a business dynamic. How do you navigate the contrast, the tension, between those two parts of yourself?
Madeleine Grynsztejn:
I start big and I end up really tiny. So I think about it as a funnel. So, for example, with regard to the Museum of Contemporary Art, Chicago, we have a very, very specific direction. But it started with a very, very big question, which is what is a museum's most urgent job today? And then the answer to that eventually funnels down to very, very specific ways of communicating, the offerings that you create, and the institution that you build. And that is how I toggle.
As someone who is trained in history, you are hyper aware that you live in a moment in time and that you have to stay very, very sensitized to blind spots and to the way that your industry, and your society evolve, so as to remain relevant.
So I think that that is the biggest gift that, history can give you, is to make you realize that you have to become very, very attuned to the fact that you need to stay both present and anticipatory in your every move.
Charles:
So you're constantly looking for the unseen. You're constantly looking for the gray space. You're constantly looking for the, "Here's everything I know. What do I not know?"
Madeleine Grynsztejn:
Right.
Charles:
Here's everything I'm aware of. What am I not aware of?
Madeleine Grynsztejn:
Right.
Charles:
How do you do that on a day to day, week to week basis? Are there techniques you bring, are there thought processes you bring to constantly remind yourself, it's easy to get focused on what I know. That's not my role, that's not my responsibility. My responsibility is to look for, as you said, the dark places, the dark corners.
Madeleine Grynsztejn:
And what I call the unintended consequences.
Charles:
Yeah.
Madeleine Grynsztejn: (14:58)
So I'm always, always asking myself and my team, "Okay, what is the potential unintended consequence of that?" And let's get ready for that. Let's understand that. And let's also remember that this is happening because of a decision that we made two years ago, or three years ago, and this is the waterfall effect.
Charles:
And unintended consequences, from your perspective, can be good things.
Madeleine Grynsztejn:
Oh, absolutely. Oh, I don't mean to sound negative at all. I mean, there are incredibly unintended consequences that can happen. You prepare for both, both the positive and the potential negative outcomes of your actions.
Charles:
So as you're creating an environment, an organization, that lives in that kind of reality that you've just described, how do you prepare people for the benefit of unintend... Most people like a semblance of control and predictability.
Madeleine Grynsztejn:
Yes.
Charles:
How do you create an environment in which unintended consequences are actually a benefit? These are why we are here in fact, in some cases.
Madeleine Grynsztejn:
Right. Well, I was going to say it's very, very hard to reassure your team that ambiguity is a really interesting space, and that you know that you're in the future when you're uncertain.
Charles:
Yeah.
Madeleine Grynsztejn:
And that's really good. Now, happily, people who are naturally drawn to this industry, have a greater comfort level with the unknown, But humans are humans and they want to know, you know, where they're going. So it's tricky. One toggles back and forth. And I think that therefore the toggling back and forth must include, okay, a summary of the steps that you have made towards clarity on an ongoing basis.
Charles:
So going back to the point you've made a couple of minutes ago, you said, you know, you have to define what is a museum. That provides the context. How do you define the role of a museum? What is a museum today to you?
Madeleine Grynsztejn:
What is a museum today to me? Now, let's understand that I'm in a very particular museum space-
Charles:
Yeah.
Madeleine Grynsztejn:
... which is the contemporary art museum, which is different from the Encyclopedic Museum, different from a medium specific museum. But, we ask that question, we have asked that question. And if we look out today and we ask ourselves what is a museum's most urgent job today, you have to answer that question taking into account the museum's best tools, which are art and the public. We're not the World Wildlife Fund. You know, it's not a polar bear saving organization, it's an art organization.
So if you Venn diagram that question, what is a museum's most urgent job, over what are the levers that are available to us, our most effective levers for addressing that question, the answer that we end up with is that the most important thing that museums can do today is elevate the most extraordinary contemporary art out there, new art, and commit ourselves to being a space where people feel they can belong and participate.
Because one of the really important issues that any public institution needs to address today is the divisiveness we find in our society right now. And if we ask ourselves what are the urgencies that contemporary art museums specifically can address, we get three answers.
First of all we are best at addressing what we would call the creative society. We are, about championing creativity in all of its dimensions, and creativity in the 21st century is a real skillset. So, we can deliver on that skillset.
We also are in a position to address the diverse society. We are at a point where, some say by 2024, we're going to be a majority minority nation. And we can commit ourselves to a truly diverse program in order to reflect the society that we're becoming. So we commit to diversity in all its forms, programmatically, in terms of our collection, in terms of our staff and board.
And then the third challenge is what we call the divided society, and, we can all agree that what we need right now are spaces and places and actions that create social bonds. And we believe in that collective dimension so strongly that we actually built a space in the middle of the building called The Commons, which is specifically an invitation to gather, informally gather and discuss, think about, see, and enact the society we wish to become.
Charles:
So you're literally trying to change culture and society.
Madeleine Grynsztejn: (20:00)
Yes, we are.
Charles:
You're literally trying to provoke and support and stimulate conversation around what kind of society do we want to live in.
Madeleine Grynsztejn:
Yes. We see ourselves as a buffer zone for the discussion of new ideas and ways of being, ways of seeing, ways of doing. That by bringing them into our museum and sharing them with the public might in turn then be introduced into society at a stickier level and might actually change society.
Charles:
So when you are out in the world looking at where are the gray areas, when you're looking for artists to help shine a light on those areas what are you looking for in those artists? When do you start to feel that you are in the presence of something that is significant?
Madeleine Grynsztejn:
Mm. When you ask me that question I think of Kerry James Marshall, an artist who lives here in Chicago, who is also and at the same time, you know, one of the most important painters in the world. The work is beautiful, intelligent and necessary, and those are the attributes that I recognize when I recognize that I am in front of something that's very important that needs to be shared with the public, with the larger public.
And by necessary I mean that the work is touching on urgent issues in a way that is not, like advertisement. It doesn't bang you over the head. It's poetic, it's metaphorical, but it is touching on issues that need to be discussed, that need to be surfaced.
In his case, he is on a mission to literally insert the black figure into the history of art, and not as a victim, not as a traumatized body, but as a self possessed, optimistic, figure. That is something that all of society needs to see.
Charles:
So do you feel it viscerally as well as intellectually? Is it-
Madeleine Grynsztejn:
Yes.
Charles:
Does- Does it cover both?
Madeleine Grynsztejn:
I feel it viscerally as well as intellectually. It has happened to me and it is such a beautiful thing when it happens, when I walk into a studio and I look around and I say, "Oh, okay. This is a language that is speaking to societal issues that need to be looked at.
Charles:
The art world can feel to some people somewhat removed, somewhat distant. It can feel unavailable. It can feel that it requires a certain knowledge or it requires a certain sensibility in order to really be in the art world. Obviously when you describe the mission of the MCA as explicitly as you have, and it has such a broad, far reaching desire to have an impact, you're literally trying to provoke conversation about culture and society. You need to be able to reach out to people for whom the art world is not always necessarily either at the top of their mind, or even something that they think they can be, or should be, part of.
How do you start to break down those barriers?
Madeleine Grynsztejn:
The number one lever is diversity. The biggest change in museums recently is that up until a few years ago a lot of the conversation in museums, revolved around exhibitions and programs. And if it was Black History Month, you know, what were you going to do. Right? For example. And it was very, very, very much about, solving the diversity issue through programs and exhibitions, which is, I think, necessarily is cosmetic and episodic. So that was... that was the fix for a long, long time.
We now know that that is not the way to go. We now know that with now have to develop long term structural changes in our institution. For example, at the MCA of Chicago we have been 50% women artists represented in our programs for five years.
So, without having to shout it from the hills, this is, you know, proof of concept is that a great museum of contemporary art can be 50% women represented in exhibitions and offerings.
So, we need to address issues of inequity across gender, across race, and it manifests itself today in the museum on all fronts. It is the lens that I think will mitigate and reduce this perception of elitism. And it manifests itself in questions around your program and your collection. For example, what are you doing to create a more inclusive art history, which is the number one job of museums right now, for as broad a public as possible. What are you doing about reflecting your community in your staff, in your board makeup, and in the stories that you're telling? These issues of equity and inclusion are frankly manifesting themselves, in the form of, you know, productive if difficult conversations with your staff around pay equity and budget transparency and structural accountability. And it manifests itself in your board and in understanding and acknowledging that this field has a longstanding structural dependence on a sometimes lopsided and sometimes deleterious philanthropic model. So you have to address these things, simultaneously.
And I truly believe that these are the issues that go to the very heart of how museums function today. It is not only about content. It is no longer only about the content we're putting out, it is about the structure of the museum itself. And here's the thing, a lot of people are freaked out about that and defensive about that. I think this is a really great thing, because I think this is a reflection of the love for and the belief in museums to model the behavior for rest of society. I think that we are being called upon by our public and our stakeholders to ground our institutions in the values of equity, inclusion and accountability, and that we are the models for advancing a just society. I really, really believe that museums are models for advancing a just society.
Charles: (27:00)
And I think what you've also just described is an organization that is truly purpose driven. I mean, y- y-
Madeleine Grynsztejn:
Yes.
Charles:
Right? You have a mission, you exist through that lens. But, to your point, you also are organized through that lens. It inf-
Madeleine Grynsztejn:
Yes.
Charles:
It informs and infuses every part of how you show up every day.
Madeleine Grynsztejn:
Absolutely. You're absolutely right. So, there's a lot of, what I call canon course correction going on in museums right now, and, you know, an acknowledgment that we have left a lot out of art history and that we are now on a fast track to look at stories and tell stories and acquire works of art that tell stories that include women artists, that include artists of color. This is not for its own sake, is another way of saying what you are saying. This is in order to prepare us for the future, for a more pluralistic society.
Charles:
Those are big challenges, right? Those are... Those are, one might say, big responsibilities. Is there any part of that that scares you?
Madeleine Grynsztejn:
Oh God, yes. All of it scares me. But, you- I- we've gotta do it, you know. We've gotta leave this place a little bit better than- than we found it. .
Charles:
What's your relationship with fear in general?
Madeleine Grynsztejn:
I'm not a fan of it.
Charles:
(laughs)
Madeleine Grynsztejn:
(laughs)
I grew up with fear, being more of the, default than with courage. But what I'm grateful for is that it gave me the tools to revolt with courage. Fear makes me turn around and, respond head on.
Charles:
So you confront it.
Madeleine Grynsztejn:
Yes.
Charles:
It actually activates you in- in some-
Madeleine Grynsztejn:
I think so. (laughs)
Charles:
Let's talk about the- the organization that you are leading-
Madeleine Grynsztejn:
Yes.
Charles:
...and how you go about unlocking creativity within it. When you became the director of the MCA, what did you think the task at hand was?
Madeleine Grynsztejn: (29:37)
When I arrived here, which is a dozen years ago this month, the problems were different than they are today and one of my mantras is that environments don't sit still. It is just in my DNA not to accept the given. so I am always looking for improvement and evolution.
Naturally the museum e- was not a blank slate upon my arrival, and naturally I was chosen for a reason or reasons, and naturally, the board of trustees, like every hiring agent, was working on a pendulum and was swinging back from where they had been with the previous leadership for 10 years, which was very business centered with no curatorial experience.
Well, they had reached their goal of a balanced budget. The thing that I didn't know enough to ask was, "Well, what did you leave on the table to get to that being in the black year after year after year?" And when I did the math and looked at the reputation, what had been left on the table was- was just quality work and a dedication to the central core of, creating and contributing to society through art and culture.
So, I believe I was hired to restore the MCA to its historic heights of being a maker and presenter of great art. And my curatorial trajectory at that time, at the risk of sounding incredibly arrogant, was proof that I could deliver on that.
So I came and this was, again, my first time as a museum director, so I came equipped with very little director experience, but lots and lots of books (laughs) on business. And went on my six month listening tour, went on my first 90 days. Read, you know, You're In Charge, Now What? You know. I mean, I did it. I was very studious, I mean I'm an art historian. But really, on this listening tour, really what I was asking was, what is this museum's most urgent job right now, and what will be its most distinguishing factor?
And after about a year, we came up with a kind of DNA sentence that took us through my first 10 years as a director, which is that the MCA is artist activated, audience engaged. 50/50. So at that time and for 10 years the museum has been driven by that sentence.
We are artist activated. Artists are our true north and they will take us to ideas, places and visual experiences of wonder that will change our world. Now we have always been artist activated. The Museum of Contemporary Art is famous for commissioning great work. However, for example, if you walked into the museum in 1974 and you saw the California artist, Chris Burden, lying naked under a pane of glass and you didn't get it, we didn't care. Fast forward to 2008 when I first arrived here and you better care, because audiences have shifted and because the audien-... the museum audiences have evolved from audiences that used to come here and be lectured to, to audiences who wanted to have a conversation, to audiences who wanted to provide their own points of view, and rightly so.
And, so becoming, artist activated and audience responsive as well, became very, very, very important to us. And so that is when we started upticking not just the interpretation of our exhibitions, but we also undertook a renovation of our interior space, to become more accommodating to the public and the public's need for relaxation as well as excitement. And we put in a restaurant, which by the way is artist activated by the British Nigerian artist, Chris Ofili. And, so we diversified our offerings.
This is in response to the fact that audiences have changed. Whereas a visitor would come to a museum and would stand in front of an artwork one to one, 72% of audiences according to one survey, come to a museum to be with each other. They use the museum in a triangular fashion to connect with someone that they come with, someone they love, someone they want to love, and they use the museum as a tool to be with each other.
Charles:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Madeleine Grynsztejn:
And so, the social aspect of the museum experience has become, you know, critically important. Environments don't sit still. My competitive environment is not necessarily another museum. My competitive environment might be the Starbucks down the street. My competitive environment might be a farmer's market. The idea of a cultural experience has really, really changed for audiences, so we ourselves cannot afford to remain on a narrow track and a narrow definition of what constitutes a museum.
Charles: (35:16)
How has that changed how you are organized? What are the skills that you now have to have as part of your group, as part of your team, as part of your organization that you didn't use to have to worry about?
Madeleine Grynsztejn:
We really need to understand our audiences. We need to meet them where they are in terms of how they want to be communicated to in every way, not just on the wall label, but how they want to be greeted at the desk. We really need to think about the museum as a holistic experience that communicates a welcome, to curiosity and optimism and generosity, and we need that to start not when you enter this museum's brick and mortar, but actually on the web. Because the museum experience starts when you wake up in the morning and you ask yourself, "I wonder what's happening at the museum today."
So our, campus, begins in the digital realm, begins in your home. And so, we have to think about a holistic welcome that is digital and that is brick and mortar, that manifests itself on the web and that manifests itself the minute you walk in and you feel like you belong here. You feel welcome. One of the things that really matters to me is that you may walk in as an individual consumer, but I I want you to walk out feeling that you are now part of a larger whole. And the way that that is accomplished is if we generate in you a sense of belonging. If we generate that in you, then I will have done my job, or rather then more importantly the museum will have done its job in that the museum will actually then embody the intersection of great contemporary art and civic life. That is its job right now.
Charles:
One of the things I've been struck by, picking up on that point specifically, is that museums used to be collaborations between the campuses you've described and artists.
Madeleine Grynsztejn:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Charles:
Now those collaborations become multi dimensional. You recently had a very successful collaboration partnership with Virgil Abloh in which you took that partnership and that collaboration and- and expressed it not simply through the walls or the experience of the campus, of the museum-
Madeleine Grynsztejn:
Right.
Charles:
... but also brought it out into the commercial world, right?
Madeleine Grynsztejn:
Right.
Charles:
There was a Nike popup. I was walking down-
Madeleine Grynsztejn:
Yes.
Charles:
... Michigan Avenue and it's still, in fact, present. How does that kind of relationship come about? Are you actively looking for those kinds of possibilities these days? Is that one of the ways that you bring the work of the museum out into society and out into pop cul-... is pop culture now part of that reference point for you as well?
Madeleine Grynsztejn:
It is actually, I believe one of the MCA Chicago's chosen sweet spots in that one of the threads that we're interested in is what we might call material culture, not just high visual culture. And, I think that, in that, we are toggling with our audiences and particularly our sweet spot demographic, which is the 18 to 34 year olds who are, you know, the- the near future, the future and the present, of this museum. Not only our public, but our near future, donor base and members and staff.
This is part of what we were talking about earlier in terms of really stepping up to the fact that we live in a creative society where the museum is not the only owner of creativity, where everybody has an ability and a right and aspiration to be creative.
So one of the things that interests us is let us look at creativity, critically. And by critically I don't mean negatively, I mean let's creatively question what creativity is today. It used to be that museums were a place to temporarily get away from society. Right? The temple. To my mind the best museums are a way to get deep into society and to really understand, question, and wrestle with what constitutes art today and how those lines are blurring. That interests us and it interests us because we want to give our public the intellectual muscle to be able to actually dissent from the way that creativity may be presented to them in society today.
So we want to explore creativity in all of its dimensions, we want to question creativity in all of its dimensions, and we want to honor and elevate creativity in all of its dimensions.
Charles: (40:02)
How do you lead?
Madeleine Grynsztejn:
I do two things, I believe. I have a vision. I think a leader has to have a vision. And I think as flat as your staff may tell you they want the organization to be, I think at the end of the day they do want leadership and most of all they want vision. They want something that they can believe in. I want something I can believe in.
And at the same time I consider myself to be a really great editor. So once the vision is set, there is enormous latitude with my extraordinary team to interpret that vision, and I edit it. I believe in setting up, sort of, bumpers on the side of the road, and I'll step in when I think that we're stepping outside of those bumpers in terms of the vision. One of the really, really wonderful and extraordinary things is that when you trust your people they rise to the occasion, and that is so beautiful. And I've learned that later in life, but, it's a really gratifying thing to see.
Charles:
I wrap every episode with three takeaways that I heard, that I think contribute to your success from a leadership standpoint. So let me throw these at you and we'll see where they land. First is you clearly have enormous intention. I think in everything you've described, in everything you do, you show up with real clarity about what it is that you're trying to make happen. and that allows to, as you've described, to edit down and focus both yourself and other people around, the ambition, the intention that you've described.
Second I think the description you gave of, looking at the parts of society, looking at the- the parts of, your experience that you don't yet know about and being not just open to the possibility that there are things that you don't know, but actually actively seeking them out. And I think many leaders would much rather live in a world that is contained and controlled and safe and don't want to know what they don't know. In my experience the very best leaders who are most able to unlock creative thinking, original thinking, are the people who are actively moving beyond those barriers and saying, "No, no. There are things that we don't yet know. We have to find out those things."
And then I think third, you are interested in and committed to, I think, your own evolution from a leadership standpoint and are interested always in how do I get better, how do I become more so that I can actually provide greater leadership and more impact to the people around me and to the cause in which I'm in- of service.
How do those resonate?
Madeleine Grynsztejn:
Oh, you're such a good listener.
Charles:
(laughs)
Madeleine Grynsztejn:
Um, where that takes me back to very nicely is it circles back way to the top of the conversation, which was about art, you know, where we begin. And what you remind me of is that I often talk about what we do here as we are going to show you what you don't yet know you love. Art is... It's really an invitation to grow as a human being, and it's an invitation to connect. And what I really want today, and what museums need to do today is content and contact.
Charles:
Hm. What a perfect summation. Thank you for sharing today. Thank you for being here. What a great conversation.
Madeleine Grynsztejn:
Thank you, Charles, for everything you're doing to help us all here, leaders, in this community. And thank you for the beautiful way that you hear.
Charles:
You're very kind.
Thank you, Madeleine.
