“The ‘Do You, Boo’ Leader”
Sarah Moffat is the Global Chief Creative Officer of Turner Duckworth - a design company that was formed in London in 1992 by David Turner and Bruce Duckworth.
Bruce and David are still around, but they don’t run the business any more. In late 2018 they handed over the reins to two long-term employees - Joanne Chan who became CEO and to Sarah.
New title, new responsibilities, new expectations. How do you make that transition successfully?
This episode is called “The ‘Do You, Boo’ Leader”.
Three Takeaways
Knowing your own strengths.
Being in service to others.
The willingness and ability to listen to others.
"FEARLESS CREATIVE LEADERSHIP" PODCAST - TRANSCRIPT
Episode 112: "The ‘Do You, Boo’ Leader" - Sarah Moffat
I’m Charles Day. I work globally with some of the most creative and innovative companies, helping their leaders maximize their impact and accelerate the growth of their business.
It’s become clear to me that the most valuable companies in the world are led by people who have something in common. They've learned how to unlock the most powerful business forces in the world - creativity and innovation.
On this podcast, I explore how they do it and I'll help you use their experiences to become a better leader, and become that leader faster.
Sarah Moffat is the Global Chief Creative Officer of Turner Duckworth - a design company that was formed in London in 1992 by David Turner and Bruce Duckworth.
Bruce and David are still around, but they don’t run the business any more. In late 2018 they handed over the reins to two long-term employees - Joanne Chan who became CEO and to Sarah.
New title, new responsibilities, new expectations. How do you make that transition successfully?
This episode is called “The ‘Do You, Boo’ Leader”.
“If I were to give anyone advice going through the same thing, is like, do you boo (laughs). Don't try to be somebody else because that's where you can tend to struggle.”
I coach a lot of people who are stepping into new leadership positions. It’s usually a moment of long hoped for confirmation that what they’ve been doing has been recognized and valued.
But in that moment of very human affirmation - a moment when life suddenly makes sense - what often quickly follows is a sea of self doubt.
At that point, my work is to help them develop an even stronger understanding of who they are. And then the confidence to focus their time on the places they can maximize their impact.
There is a moment in that journey, when the person realizes that who they are is enough. When they stop trying to be someone else. And then... “magic starts to happen”.
Whether you’re leading now or want to in the future, ask yourself this question and write down the answer.
What do I do better than anyone I know?
If you don’t know - or the words feel forced - it’s worth finding out, why?
Here’s Sarah Moffat.
Charles:
Sarah welcome to the Fearless, thanks for joining me today.
Sarah Moffat:
Thanks for asking me to come along and chat.
Charles:
When did creativity first show up in your life?
Sarah Moffat:
It's funny I was asked this question just the other day, and my kind of reply was to say, I don't think it was- it was there from day one it didn't ever show up and I think that's the challenge, everybody thinks that we're all born not creative and suddenly we discover we are.
I think we're all born creative and the fact is we forget, so for me it's kind of when did I first discover it, I think I kind of like felt it from day one and managed to hold on to that and not forget that I was creative (laughs) unlike some people who do.
Charles:
How did it show up for you?
Sarah Moffat:
I actually, I've always liked, as a kid, really liked playing and making things and creating and doing and you know as a kid I was always into playing games on my own that I would create. I'm not particularly good at drawing so I think a lot- people started telling me, oh you're not, oh you're not very artistic which, you know really easily translates into creativity. So I went into sciences and it was probably when I was about 16 went into doing a GCSE in art just because I needed to fill my curriculum (laughs) with something else and I couldn't do any more sciences and it was kind of like the hobby and the side thing and I really enjoyed it and I used it as a bit of an escape.
And then eventually when I finished up doing science and I decided I didn't want to be a- a forensic pathologist, I went back and thought yeah I'll do a foundation year in art because that- that was my escape, that was where I relaxed that was where I kind of figured out other things and that was how I naturally kind of found my way back into it. So kind of, went on a detour having been told oh you can't draw therefore you're not very creative, to discovering actually there was so many other ways you could be creative and got back into it that way.
Charles:
Did you have to fight the voice in your head?
Sarah Moffat:
A little bit, there's so much that society tells you of, particularly when it comes to art, that that's not a career, that's not something that you -you should follow. You should be, you know, aim for being a doctor a dentist or somebody in kind of like a higher level academic profession.
And I think typically because I went through a very strict British boarding school education, particularly as a girl, it was either I was going to be, a wife, so I should learn how to cook and run a household or I should go into a high level profession that would make worth of what I was doing. So yeah, I was kind of like fighting against what the forces outside were telling me and what convention was telling me as well and you know what all my peers as well.
Charles:
Did any of them become forensic pathologists?
Sarah Moffat:
Ah, not one, no. (laughs)
Charles:
(laughs)
Were you a risk taker as a kid?
Sarah Moffat:
No, very mu- very sensible kid, the one that was never, never in trouble or is the one, first one to sort of stand in line and stand straight and be quiet when everyone was told off. So no definitely not a risk taker (laughs). But you know, somebody, I think that sort of like, stood me in good stead in some ways and not in others and I think being in a creative field is a good place for me to be, because it encourages me to do some thing a little bit more daring than I would have normally (laughs) as a kid.
Charles:
What was your first job?
Sarah Moffat:
My first job was Turner Duckworth-
Charles:
Really?
Sarah Moffat:
So I've been here for 21 plus years. I entered a competition at university that was to design a trophy for the Schweppes Eurobash and Bruce Duckworth- it was kind of the alternative to the European Song Contest on Channel Four and Bruce was helping them create the trophy and he put it out as brief to the university of like can somebody do some designs for this.
And, I entered the competition and won and my prize was a week’s free unpaid internship at Turner Duckworth (laughs). Which I should have guessed going in, what the rest of my career progression would look like. But, that's how I sort of discovered Turner Duckworth first off. And from that internship I went on to get a job after I graduated.
Charles:
That's quite a piece of design in and of itself actually, if you think about it, the prize is that you can work for us for free (laughs).
Sarah Moffat:
Yeah, Bruce is amazing like that (laughs). I can say that it should have come as no small surprise to me how my career would progress from that point (laughs) that's the basis of it.
Charles:
Yes, creative and artful. Very, very well done. So tell me your path through Turner Duckworth?
Sarah Moffat:
So it's really- started off, total entry level designer. And I've just been joking with the team here in New York today that we only had two computers and we didn't have the internet when I first started, which kind of blows the minds of some of the younger designers that work for us now.
So I started out, hired as a junior designer and really worked, a sort of in the beginning as an assistant along-side other designers. So, a lot of that kind of hands on work in the early days, but at that time not really realizing the whole time I'm complaining about how many mock-ups I have to make, I was actually learning a lot of valuable skills that set me in good stead for the path ahead.
Charles:
So very much hands on?
Sarah Moffat:
Yes, yeah very much hands on and we were, we were small then, we were only I think, maybe I was number seven in London.
So very small that's I guess, as the youngest person there, that's why I got all of the fun jobs to do (laughs) but the benefit of that being small was I sat opposite Bruce Duckworth, I also sat and worked alongside every designer of every level. So I was just like a little sponge trying to soak up from whoever I could work with, whoever could tell me something so it was a really great founding,
Charles:
Did you have an ambition back then?
Sarah Moffat:
I'd like to say oh yeah, totally had really great ambition, I really knew exactly what- no I had no idea. I just knew that I'd found a job that I really enjoyed and kind of was looking around over my shoulder thinking, when is someone going to rumble that I get paid to do this and - don't tell Bruce I probably really would have done it for free because I really enjoyed it (laughs).
Charles:
So let me rapidly fast-forward.
Sarah Moffat:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Charles:
You've been the CCO now for how long?
Sarah Moffat:
A year. I took over, being CCO at the stroke of midnight (laughs) in December and then into January last year, that was when I first took over and took over all three of the studios.
Charles:
And you'd been at Turner Duckworth for how many years before that?
Sarah Moffat:
That would be 20 years.I just had my 20th anniversary in ah, August of the previous year.
Charles:
How long ahead of time did you know that, that was going to be your job?
Sarah Moffat:
Not as long as I would have liked to have known (laughs) but having worked with David and Bruce for I think I was in London for eight years and then I moved to San Francisco after that. So, I'm in the rare position of having worked with both of them, I kind of know how they both operate and it's the fun rollercoaster of them is that they make decisions and they move fast and so it was not necessarily a surprise and I would have liked more time but I'm used to them kind of being like that.
They kind of make a decision and they go with it. So it was only a couple of months, and not a sort of total surprise that they were leaving but a bit of a big shock of, oh you're leaving and wait you expect me to do what you two were doing? And that was kind of a little bit of an intimidating thought of suddenly taking on, you know three studios and you know three very varied locations with very different staff on them. And going from being what I felt was in the trenches to suddenly being out of that and looking at everybody and oh my God they're all looking at me now and they want to know what we're doing and where we're going.
Charles:
You say you found it intimidating when you, when they first broached that. What was intimidating about it?
Sarah Moffat:
Because, it's a little bit like, I'd worked with them for such a long time, I spent more time with David and Bruce than I have with my own family. It suddenly felt like, the role reversal of your parents saying we're not leaving home, we're leaving you and it was like what? Where you going? Like you've been here the whole time and suddenly you're leaving me, where are you going? So all those childhood abandonment issues came bubbling up.
But I realized that they'd set me up with absolutely everything that I'd needed I just didn't realize it at the time, in that moment of oh my goodness, like Turner and Duckworth does that mean we're not Turner Duckworth anymore? And in fact it kind of meant we were more Turner Duckworth (laughs) than we ever were before.
Charles:
What had they given you as a platform, as a foundation?
Sarah Moffat:
I think, and it's been really interesting because women's issues comes to the forefront a lot and I've always, not that I'm not a feminist but I've always been quite shocked when people say, well you know, women are treated so poorly in the workplace, I've never experienced that and sometimes I feel like it's a little bit of a ding for me on the fact that I really admire my male bosses and it's these guys that taught me everything I know about how to run a company, how to work for people.
And I really appreciate that I've had that experience and wish that more people could have that experience too. So I think they'd set me up in every way possible that they could and they’re so generous of sharing approaches. And in particular in moving to San Francisco, David Turner is just such a great mentor in terms of, he wouldn't necessarily tell me how to solve the problem, he would kind of talk things through with me and then go, do you think you can do it? I think you can do it, go on off you go. And then, you know, I'd just have to figure it out, but that was just the best way of doing it, I learnt on the job and they just gave me the confidence that I know you think you can't do it but you've got this, go on.
So it was great, it was very caring and very supportive. I kind of always knew if it went wrong they'd have my back and that might have been a bit why when the news first, when they first broke it- well then who's going to be behind me now to catch me? And they're like you'll be fine, you won't fall.
Charles:
Do you feel like you have somebody now? Behind you.
Sarah Moffat:
Yes, I think I've got a really great partnership with Joanne who is the, the CEO.
Charles:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Sarah Moffat:
We've actually worked together for a very, very long time. We're a really interesting balance between each other because Joanne's background is very much in working the accounts side, she's responsible for all of the financials so, one of the, the people within Publicis refer to as the poet and the plumber (laughs).
Charles:
(laughs)
Sarah Moffat:
That you kind of need both, and I think that's a bit of a difference in that with David and Bruce we had two epic poets, and just that shift has been really interesting for how we go about the business and it's a little bit more balanced. We debate a lot but, if we didn't, one of us wouldn't be needed, as they say. So yeah, I feel like super supported and I'd hope to say she'd say the same thing.
Charles:
Do you worry that you've spent your entire career at one company and so, therefore, have less perspective on how other businesses have done it?
Sarah Moffat:
Not really. That's easy for me to say because I've never experienced it so I wouldn't ever really know totally what I was missing out about., But I don't think so. I haven't worked at other companies but we partner so closely with the businesses we work with, I feel like I had a career at Coca-Cola for all those years. I feel like I you know, had a career at McDonalds. So I feel like I've had a very varied experience even though I'm very fortunate that I haven't had to move that much.
And of course when I get together with my friends in the creative arena we all talk about work and what's going on and I think the challenges are the same in every company (laughs).
Charles:
I'm always fascinated when talking to somebody who has taken over from a founder because I think in many ways it's one of the very hardest things to do and especially in the creative industry.
Sarah Moffat:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Charles:
Founders tend to be charismatic and larger-than-life and big personality and if the company's been successful for as long as this one has, they're clearly hugely talented.
Sarah Moffat:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Charles:
It's a difficult position to walk into. And I'm interested in hearing from you, how you have gone through that transition. How have you found and maintained your sense of self?
Sarah Moffat:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Charles:
Within the context of this was somebody else's business vision, expression of who they were right? How have you held on to who you are and how do you adapted that into what the company needs?
Sarah Moffat:
So I think I made a mistake in the beginning of thinking that my job was to step up and fill the founders shoes. Both Joanne and I were like oh my goodness those are two big pairs of really shiny shoes, how on earth are we going to fill those? And I spent the sort of like, the first few weeks, maybe months trying to like find, find my feet thinking that was what I needed to do.
And then once I realized that wasn't what I needed to do, what I needed to do was put on my favorite shoes, and step up into them. I'll never be them, I need to try and do it my way and I'm not the outgoing, charismatic leader in the way that they are, I have a very different approach.
And I think that's the important thing of being okay that it's different. So it's less that I felt I needed to change, and more that I needed to realize I didn't need to change and that was okay and that I would adopt a different style. And that's been able to give other personalities within the company a chance to shine. So we do have some outgoing, charismatic team in the creative team in particular and it's given them an opportunity that they can step up and shine and that my role is kind of a lot more in creating a foundation that's s-safe for them to do that.
So just, finding my own way has been the best way and I think that's the- if I were to give anyone advice going through the same thing, is like, do you boo (laughs). Don't try to be somebody else because that's where you can tend to struggle.
Charles:
And how did that realization, I think that's very powerful, how did that realization come to you? Was that a- was there an incident that made you go this isn't working? Was there just an evolution over time of recognition, did somebody help you with that?
Sarah Moffat:
I think it was, something had naturally, was naturally happening, where I was coming up against a struggle and thinking what would David and Bruce do? I- bit by bit found myself, and my inner voice saying, stop worrying about what it is that they would do and just you do what you think is right.
It was not necessarily a penny drop or a light bulb moment but just constantly going you know, realizing what the pattern was and going oh, it goes better when I do it this way and I get into trouble when I do it (laughs) the other so let's do more of that. Sounds like an echo.
Charles:
You have to have a strong sense of self to be able to realize that and recognize that and behave that way. Has that always been true for you?
Sarah Moffat:
I think like in the beginning when you were asking me was I an adventurous child I think, you know, I wasn't one to go out on a limb but I am also very stubborn. And it's a blessing and a curse so I think it's probably, it's not about having bags of self confidence but, kind of if I think it's the way of doing something I will usually keep going unless there's a really good reason to change it so maybe it's stubbornness more than anything else (laughs).
Charles:
So you take on this large, significant, very visible role. You're taking over from charismatic, very visible founders. Have you either in that process or now, have you defined what the future of this company looks like from your perspective, have you taken ownership over it emotionally as well as practically to that extent?
Sarah Moffat:
Yes. We gave ourselves a year Joanne and I, we just sort of decided that, let's find our feet in our new roles. Let's go around all of the studio's and make sure we meet with everybody and talk to them and like take this year to kind of assess what's going on. And we met at the end of the year and discussed like what we feel the plan is for the business moving forward and what our ambitions are. It's quite rare for a business to survive the transition of losing a founder and keep going,
In the beginning, It's easy to think that the founders are David and Bruce, and they are the original founders. But finding that voice is like realizing oh I'm a founder too and not only am I a founder, and Joanne a founder but we're so lucky, at Turner Duckworth in particular because there's a whole group of people that have been here 20 years, 18 years, 17 years, you know, majority of our staff has been here 10 years. That we've got lots of founders so that's- it's great, there's like lots of people that you can rely on that really understand the business and I think that strong sense of culture's really important to that.
You know, We refer to ourselves as Duckies and you know people, everybody knows why they're here, what we do, what we stand for, so everybody kind of carries that torch and it's just invaluable to have that, everyone understands the business from that perspective.
Charles:
So have you defined success through your own lens?
Sarah Moffat:
I think, for me, success is, we talk about our goal is to be the most influential, we wanted a sort of crazy big goal that we could aim for and possibly never reach but that's where we're aiming for, that's where we're going. We want to be the most influential agency in the world.
It's not an arrogant goal it's not like we feel we deserve it and we should be there it's what we're aiming for and the measure of success of that is kind of hearing our voice within the industry, do we have influence over companies, over how other agencies might approach work. And I love hearing from, you know, I've been judging award shows and heard some- one of the judges say 'oh my god they just did a Turner Duckworth' and I'm like brilliant, I love that (laughs), that's influence. Like the way we're kind of known for a certain thing and we're having an effect and that's something we really, really want to build on.
Of, how can we, not just help ourselves, improve how creativity can affect other businesses but how can we all rally together as an industry and work not against each other, but together to kind of like really help change. Because used in the right way, creativity can change so much for so many people.
It can be something very simple like brightening their day, making them smile but it can be something really fundamental like through industrial design that really changes a person’s life and how they live it so. If we can get that voice together, I'd call that success.
Charles:
You talked about how the environment and culture engenders longevity, you've got a number of people you've said have been here quite a long time-
Sarah Moffat:
Yeah.
Charles:
A very long time in fact. What is it that you think this culture provides. What are the values that you live by that you think create that kind of environment that people want to stick around so long?
Sarah Moffat:
It's the bit where I usually get choked up and a bit tearful so (laughs).
So, for me it's family and it's that it feels like a family. We used to joke in the early days in London that it was the Turner Duckworth youth club because we'd come in on the weekends to hang out with each other (laughs). And it was like what are we doing here? We should probably be at home (laughs) doing other stuff but it- There's a real sense of community and family.
And it's- It's very hard to get a job here but once you're in, it's because you're the right fit, you're the right person, you think the way that we think. We certainly, we don't exclude anybody like- or anything like that, but it takes a certain type of mindset to make it here. And those that do make it find that they have kindred spirits and lifelong friends. And not only have people like stuck around a long time but, they keep coming back.
So I'm not quite sure what that secret sauce is. I'd say if I was to pin it down, it's a sense of family and a sense of belonging that we're all here doing something together.
Charles:
Companies that engender that kind of feeling and, bring those kind of values and create that kind of culture, sometimes what I find is that the flip side of that is that they have a hard time letting people go.
Sarah Moffat:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Charles:
Is that an issue here for you?
Sarah Moffat:
I'd like to say, no I don't think it is. Invariably if the people who- When we've come across somebody that there's an actual problem with, we'll work really hard to try and make it work. And I think that could be seen as oh, we really like them so we don't want to let them go.
But we actually have over the years let people go who haven't been a right fit and it's more of a case of a square peg in a round hole than anybody doing something that's not right. And as much letting them go for their sake as ours. It's kind of like if I really love you I'm going to let you go kind of a thing (laughs).
But we're really fortunate that- that there really has been very little of that, and I wouldn't say, we're very strict of, we say we don't have a B team. We really don't, we're so lucky and I don't think we've got anybody who's like cruising along as sort of like dead weight or anything like that.
People tend to move on of their own accord, move on to something else and generally people don't tend to leave to go somewhere else to do another design career. They tend to go to do something completely different which is sort of, it's sort of interesting how it's netted out over the years. There's very few people that have gone on to form another company or do something else.
Charles:
How do you find people being held to account to the standards of the company? When you've got this kind of an environment. How do you find people being held to account to the standards of the company? When you've got this kind of an environment, when you talk about, being a family-
Sarah Moffat:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Charles:
Families as we know are pretty dysfunctional right?
Sarah Moffat:
Oh yes (laughs). I'm not saying we're perfect (laughs).
Charles:
How do you make sure, how does the organization itself make sure that people are being held to account to those kinds of standards?
Sarah Moffat:
We have a document, that sounds very serious, it's called the Ill Borrow Convention and it was inspired by the Declaration of Independence or the Geneva Convention.
We wanted a document that would cement our beliefs. I think it was our 21st birthday as a company, we all went to Italy and stayed in this absolutely fantastic medieval village. It was like a tiny village but it accommodated all of us, it was fantastic. And we had a series of days to talk about things. And everybody finally had this moment where they felt they could finally speak up and it wasn't doing these usually business exercises. Somebody was just like, I'm fed up of talking like this, let's talk reality about what's going on. We had a really great conversation, David and Bruce moderated, they were really open to hearing everybody's opinions about what we were doing right and what we were doing wrong. They were very gracious about it because it was a no-holes barred, everybody just let them have it.
And at the end of it, they wrote the Convention which has become since then the foundation that we kind of stick to. And within that Convention there's this promise that we make to each other of, almost like wedding vows actually (laughs).
Of how we'll promise to generously support one another and how we won't have any skeletons in the cupboard. And that's the kind of the mantra that we repeat. And I wouldn't say that every single person knows and gets it but the core of the company is driven by that and understands that.
Charles:
So, is that actually brought up as an overt kind of reminder?
Sarah Moffat:
Yes.
Charles:
Like if somebody's acting out-
Sarah Moffat:
Yeah.
Charles:
By the way, here's the Convention, let’s remind ourselves what this actually means in terms of day to day behavior.
Sarah Moffat:
And every year we vote for what we call the Turner Duckworthy award where it's measured through, the sort of, the criteria of the Convention in a way, where you have an opportunity as an individual to vote for the person that you think is just the best of the best. And it's not necessarily that they're the best designer or the best account manager or they're the person that really looks after you. It's you get to vote for the person that you feel really makes a difference and embodies everything that is that convention.
And the award is a Tin Tin rocket because it's the- we have this sort of-
Charles:
Perfect design.
Sarah Moffat:
Shoot for the moon as well, and you know it's an adventure and we're all on it, let's go for it.
And that's- you know, we've been doing that for quite some time, I think the actually- the award for voting for your favorite person may even pre-date the Convention but that's what's really solidified it. Of finally trying to put what our culture is in writing-
Charles:
Mmm (affirmative).
Sarah Moffat:
And say this is the promise we're going to make to one another
Charles:
I have a Tin Tin rocket at home.
Sarah Moffat:
You do?
Charles:
It's a perfect expression of design, isn't it? It's powerful actually. I'm struck to in that story because when I was at Ogilvy, David Ogilvy was still walking the halls. And there was in fact a David Ogilvy award-
Sarah Moffat:
Mmm (affirmative).
Charles:
For the person who best reflected the values of the company and David had always been very articulate about-
Sarah Moffat:
Mmm (affirmative).
Charles:
These are the kind of characteristics and qualities. So I'm struck by creating environments and cultures that are that clearly and specifically defined-
Sarah Moffat:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Charles:
That you can actually identify people who are actually behaving according to them.
Sarah Moffat:
Yeah.
Charles:
And hold them up and celebrate them for that.
Sarah Moffat:
And, and we'll like quite often say, oh that person they're a real Duckie, and that might even refer to a client-
Charles:
Mmm (affirmative).
Sarah Moffat:
So it's nice to be able to, to kind of have that sense of who we are as a brand I guess. I mean it's ultimately, what we do for a living, we should be able to it internally. Sort of a good expression of who we are and how to articulate that.
Charles:
I want to talk about you for a minute or two. So, this is obviously, it's a big role.
Sarah Moffat:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Charles:
Right, it's a high profile company. It's got a big history of success. Within the context of that on a personal basis. How does fear show up for you, what's your relationship with fear?
Sarah Moffat:
Probably back to that stubborn thing, of every now and again I'll have, you know I kind of have that moment of feeling a little bit overwhelmed. But it's less and less and I think that's because I feel so confident in the team I have next to me, around me, beside me. If I didn't have that team, and I've seen, you know peers of mine who haven't got that that's what I'm afraid of is, finding myself in that position, you know if I'd be nothing without the team next to me. They are an incredible bunch of- all of them really fantastic, so I'm really lucky to say that I don't have a lot of fear other than that fear of losing them.
Charles:
What drives you forward. What makes this important for you to want to do?
Sarah Moffat:
It's just day by day and small goals in between, I don't really have like a giant end game other than the end game of this is where the company is going and making sure that we're going there., But everyday is so different, every day is a completely new challenge. And that's what- I do really like that, I feel like I'm learning something every single time.
If I didn't have that I'd probably find it really hard to drive myself forwards so the momentum of learning something new,, talking to a new person, discovering a new brand that needs to break into a new field that I've got no idea about that but I'll find out and I want to get into that.
So I say that, it's not something that I'm very conscious of but I'm just aware that probably the momentum of having that every single day. One day it's fast food the next day it's financial technology, the next day it's healthcare and it's all over the map. And if that- that gets me awake every morning and thinking and it's really engaging.
Charles:
Do you second guess yourself? Do you look back with regrets of anything?
Sarah Moffat:
Ah, never with regret. I think I'm a firm believer in what it was, it was, because you can't go back and change it. I think living in the past or dwelling on the past, I don't tend to do that, I don't think I've actually, no I'd say no regrets in that respect at all. You just kind of like take each day at a time and go that way.
Charles:
How do you learn from the decisions you make? Like what's the- the context you place around them?
Sarah Moffat:
I think, it's because I have the people around me that when I make- I do- I do totally second guess myself and- but I have a team that will totally call me out on it and go it's total bullshit why are you (laughs) why are you saying that? That's not true. And they'll keep my feet on the ground and keep me right and I do the same in return. I think that's a bit of a, sort of like a- I'm from the North of England a good kind of Northern approach to things, it's a bit more no nonsense. That's really stood me in good stead and really listening to people around me, I think that's a for me - a bit of a pitfall that David in particular was really good at teaching me of like, don't ever think that when you're at the top that the values of the people, opinions of the people that who work for you don't count. They count more than ever and you need to listen to them.
Charles:
And how do you, how do you- I mean I think that's a really positive, admirable and increasingly necessary trait for successful leadership, but I'm also conscious of the fact that there are times where you have to be able and willing to follow your own path and your own instincts in the face of sometimes quite vehement opposition. Have you found those situations coming up yet?
Sarah Moffat:
I've had a couple of those, where, I think that was in the beginning where I was trying to fill those shoes.
Charles:
Mmmm (affirmative)
Sarah Moffat:
I had a couple of those wobbles of where I felt, oh my God you guys I'm doing this for you and this- this isn't for me I'm- you know, a decision had to be made and somebody had to make it and I just happen to be the one that did it. I took some of that a little bit personally-
Charles:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Sarah Moffat:
But what I learned is, just give them time and if I gave myself the time probably more so than gave other people time and just, sort of said like, you know, I know this is the right thing to do. Give it some time, if it's the right thing to do then that will be what it is and if it isn't then let's do something else .
Charles:
And, how do you lead?
Sarah Moffat:
Probably quietly from the side or the back. What I tend to do and this is really where my personality differs from that of a founder which is where I'm in this sort of like unique position of it's pretty unlikely that I would have ever founded a company on my own so I've sort of like inherited this role I wouldn't have naturally got to.
Because my role probably always has been, in a group of friends, in any situation is to kind of lay the foundations for other people to find their paths. So that's not typically the skill of a leader but in some ways I'm just kind of shepherding is probably more what I'm doing, making sure that they're all in the right place at the right time without necessarily feeling that they've been led through a series of fields away from the wolves. I don't even want them to think about the wolves (laughs).
So, I'd say that'd be more my style and it's always been that, I've always been there, the person in a group of friends, the one that everyone always goes to with their problems, bit more of the agony aunt. For good and for bad.
Charles:
Has the company changed either subconsciously or overtly because it's now run by two women?
Sarah Moffat:
I don't think so. I think in the beginning there was a lot of trumpeting about oh, women leaders in leadership role at design agency and I touched in this at the beginning I felt a bit weird about that, I was like, why is that any different to anyone else, I want to be here on my merit not because of my gender. But I think I'm in a privileged position to feel that way because I had such great male support and I wouldn't have got that without that.
I think it inspired a lot of the young females that we have within the company because it is true in a lot of the industry it's just not what I've experienced, that there tends to be a lot of male leadership. But there's no barriers for anybody, it's- you know we encourage boys and girls alike to just do their very best and you'll get there and it's not really about gender for us.
But, it's- it's very important, like I say I have the experience I have of being very lucky, not everyone else has had that, so if it- if someone is inspired by that we've definitely supported it. But we're also saying to the boys don't worry, love you too.
Charles:
What are you afraid of?
Sarah Moffat:
I think like most people have a very healthy fear of failing. I'm- I don't let it worry me, but it's definitely the what if, the thing on my shoulder, the gut check is always there. I'm afraid of letting people down, I really don't want to do that, I don't want to let David and Bruce down because they're names, even though, they're still the chairmen and they're still involved in the business to a degree, their names are above the door. I don't want to let them down and I don't want to let down every single person that works here and so that's the fear or letting somebody down would probably be it. And, probably don't let it worry me too much otherwise I'd just waste my time doing that and nothing else (laughs).
Charles:
I wrap every episode with three themes that I've heard, three takeaways-
Sarah Moffat:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Charles:
That I think are contributing to your success as a leader. First is, you clearly have a very strong sense of self and I think it gives you an anchor and a reference point that makes it easier for you than I think many people I encounter to kind of come back to a true North and not get either distracted or overwhelmed by a lot of the external stuff-
Sarah Moffat:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Charles:
I think the transition you described over your first year is a pretty remarkable one because a lot of people I think would have found themselves trying very hard for a long time to fill somebody else's definition of what the role is-
Sarah Moffat:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Charles:
And it sounds like you got to a place where you found your own definition and realized that pretty quickly.
Two is, as I think all the best leaders are, you're clearly in service of other people. You're here to provide a pathway, a runway-
Sarah Moffat:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Charles:
Clear the way for other people to come through.
And third, and I hear this more and more actually, through my work and through this podcast is, the capacity and the willingness to listen to other people and to use that information to make a fully informed decision. Not necessarily to do what they want but to use the insight meaningfully-
Sarah Moffat:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Charles:
And contextually, to help make the decision a better, more thoughtful, richer one. How do those resonate?
Sarah Moffat:
Fantastic, can you write my school report for me? (laughs) That sounds great, yeah I've it's- when you say it like that I'm like 'oh, that's really nice'. But that sounds great, yeah that's really nice to hear as well and I've- that- it does resonate with me, like if I'm doing that, and that's what you heard I'm pretty proud of myself (laughs). So that's good, yeah that sounds, I'd say that resonates really strongly.
Charles:
Sarah, thanks so much for joining me today.
Sarah Moffat:
Thank you very much (laughs).
