“The Opportunity Creator”

Dame Carolyn Fairbairn is the Director-General of the Confederation of British Industry. The CBI represents 190,000 British businesses, and campaigns the government for policies that support the needs of companies up and down the land.

When Dame Carolyn took the job in the summer of 2015, a vote on whether Britain should leave Europe was a David Cameron election promise. A year later, Brexit had become the greatest driver of uncertainty and hostility in the British economy. Almost four years after that, it still is.

It’s much easier to lead when things are going well, the future is clear and results are trending up.

It’s a different story when you’re faced with endless uncertainty and personal attacks. In those conditions, staying the course and showing up every day requires something more than short-term goals. Something more than quarterly earnings reports or the next industry award.

You’ve got to be clear of the difference you want to make.

Three Takeaways

Define your intention in every situation.
Know who you are and what you bring to the table.
Listen.

"FEARLESS CREATIVE LEADERSHIP" PODCAST - TRANSCRIPT

Episode 107: "The Opportunity Creator" - Dame Carolyn Fairbairn

Hi. I’m Charles Day.

I work globally with some of the most creative and innovative companies, helping their leaders maximize their impact and accelerate growth.

It's become clear to me, that the most valuable companies in the world are led by people who have something in common. They've learned how to unlock the most powerful business forces in the world - creativity and innovation.

On this podcast, I explore how they do it and I'll help you use their insights to not only become a better leader but become that leader faster.

It’s much easier to lead when things are going well, the future is clear and results are trending up.

You’ve got to be clear of the difference you want to make.

This episode is called, “The Opportunity Creator”.

"One of the reasons I wanted to do the job, is I do believe, really fundamentally, in business as a force for good. I do believe in the power of business to create real opportunities for people.”

Dame Carolyn makes a lot of points in this podcast that I could have highlighted. The time she realized that people’s perceptions of her leadership changed depending on whether she walked to the left or the right of the photocopier.

Her recognition of the damage that can be caused to any organization when leaders look to place blame.

And the importance of leaders who are willing to kill ideas quickly because when failure isn’t fast enough it deadens creativity.

But I chose to focus on her determination to create opportunities for people because through all my work, a simple truth has emerged.

The best leaders want to make the biggest difference in the lives of others. They overcome obstacles and hard times and self doubts because they’re drawn to something that is more important to them than any of those.

Because obstacles and hard times and self doubt are temporary.

And making a difference to others is forever. It might be the only thing we can take with us.

So what difference do you want to make? And what is that worth putting up with?

Here’s Dame Carolyn Fairbairn.

Charles:

Dame Carolyn, welcome to Fearless. Thank you so much for joining me.

Dame Carolyn Fairbairn:

An absolute pleasure to be here, Charles.

Charles:

What's your first memory of creativity, growing up. When did creativity first show up as a thing in your life?

Dame Carolyn Fairbairn:

It's one of those things isn't it? You don't really recognize creativity when you see it, but I think I always liked ideas. I actually always liked art, so right from… It was one of my favorite... if I'd been better at it, I think it's something I would like to have done. That idea of putting together different mixtures of things, and coming up with something different, was always part of what I did. And then, I suppose, when I became a journalist, that point of listening to lots of views, coming up with something original. It was probably the first time, when I was working for The Economist, that I consciously think of myself as using creativity in a job.

Charles:

Were you looking for stories, as a journalist?

Dame Carolyn Fairbairn:

Very much so. I think stories are the most powerful thing, I think the business world can be very dry until you bring it to life with real people and real stories. I remember covering very, very colorful characters. I covered Robert Maxwell when I was at The Economist, and being able to tell his story in a way that was, yeah, I'd like to think it was creative. So, from a pretty early age, I think.

Charles:

Were you a risk taker, growing up, as a kid?

Dame Carolyn Fairbairn:

I don't think I was, really. It is interesting. I have watched many other risk takers, and actually, I think I'm probably more a listener, I pull together ideas, and I try and solve problems. But I've never been somebody who thought I could, or wanted to really, start my own business or forge out on my own. So, probably not, although I'd like to think I took risks in the ideas I had.

Charles:

Oh, that's an interesting perspective. But you never saw yourself as a business owner, or an entrepreneur?

Dame Carolyn Fairbairn:

It's really interesting, no. I married one so, maybe that was something. I think two in one family can be something. I think, for me, the risk taking always came in the challenge, the pushing out ideas, but I don't think I ever saw myself as somebody who would run a business. And I probably never actually, at the beginning, really saw myself as a CEO, although that is what I am now.

Charles:

When did it first occur to you that you could be one?

Dame Carolyn Fairbairn:

I do actually remember it quite vividly, because I think I had always been an ideas person, I'd always seen myself as, yes, creative, yes, challenging, I was an economist but I put that together with journalism, I went into the media, all of that. So I saw myself as a creative person in a problem solving media environment. And it was really only when I was at the BBC. So, I'd been at the BBC about three or four years and I'd done pretty well, and I found myself working for Greg Dyke, who was Director General of the BBC, and he was somebody who always said, "Come on, you can run that project. You can do this. You can do that."

And so I found myself in charge of more things. And I suppose that there was a time when, we had a particular project, we were launching a brand new television service called Freeview, it was in the early 2000. It was a creative idea, it came from actually Greg and I having a coffee one day, and just having this idea, and he put me in charge of it. And it was a real success. And I thoroughly, I loved it. I loved it. And I think that was a moment when I thought, "Yeah, I can run things." And so from then on in, I've just been gradually doing more myself.

Charles:

When you first had the experience, did you like being in charge?

Dame Carolyn Fairbairn:

To be honest I did, actually. I think because I'd had-

Charles:

I think the best leaders do, don't they?

Dame Carolyn Fairbairn:

Yeah, I did like it. Because I'd started off, as I said, as a journalist at The Economist, I then, was it McKinsey?

Charles:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Dame Carolyn Fairbairn:

Where I was pretty happy in my consulting role, I did a lot of really interesting things, but I wasn't running anything. And I thought, "This is me. I'm perfectly happy not running things." And I liked being part of a team. And it was at the BBC when I really did get the sense of actually being in charge of setting a direction, bringing people with you. I still think I built on ideas, so the ideas that came, in terms of running things at the BBC, I think I brought all of that with me, if you like. The fact that I didn't have to be telling people what to do. I don't think I've ever been very much in that mold. But no, I did. I did enjoy it.

Charles:

How do you define creativity? From a business standpoint.

Dame Carolyn Fairbairn:

Yeah. I think it is understanding your world around you really well. I then think it is looking into the future and what people think that you want now, but also will want in the future, and putting all of those different elements together into something that is genuinely new. And I don't think that has to be a new product, I don't think it has to be a TV service, it could be something relatively small. It can be the idea for how you improve small things about the way a business is run. I was always very struck by the Team Sky philosophy of, "An inch at a time. A small step at a time." But I do think it comes from listening, and understanding your world around you, and understanding a little bit about the future.

Charles:

That Team Sky reference point I think is really a valuable... I think I mentioned it before in this podcast, but it came out of Dave Brailsford originally.

Dame Carolyn Fairbairn:

Yes, that's right.

Charles:

Incremental marginal gains, a 1% improvement every day doubles your capacity over 91 days, I think, mathematically.

Dame Carolyn Fairbairn:

It is extraordinarily powerful stuff, and I think that, it's one of the things that I feel more and more strongly about, that you need to be able to encourage people to be creative in every job they do.

Charles:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Dame Carolyn Fairbairn:

Because, I think sometimes we can define it as the big break through, or you need to be Michelangelo, or you need to be inventing the internet, whereas actually everybody in an organization is doing something that they could do slightly better. And, particularly in digital where... A lot of my career has been trying to make digital work for people. I'm not a technologist myself but I've always just about understand what it does for people. And it can be the small things. We've just launched a new website at the CBI for our members, and actually the most valuable things have been, in some ways, the smallest things. It's about creating a particular network to connect different kinds of businesses. So, one of the things I think is really important, is to let people know that people have belief in creativity as being something you could influence every day in your job, no matter what you do.

Charles:

Yeah. And I think you're also right. The most creative businesses in the world produce creativity from every corner of the organization. They don't isolate it as a different discipline or different skillset and say, "These people are responsible for driving ideas, and everybody else just do your job." There's a much more universal understanding of what creative thinking and where it comes from.

Dame Carolyn Fairbairn:

I think that there really is. And it's one the things that, in my job now, because we represent, we speak for other businesses and we try to really help businesses, in whatever sector, to perform that little bit better. And there's a sense of which we have the creative industries, that's one thing, but actually we have creativity in our car companies, certainly in our tech companies, in our manufacturers. And I think it's actually one of the things the UK is actually very good at. One of the things that I've really keen to do is try to really make this a core UK strength, that for all the creative people to feel that they don't have to be boxed into any particular sector that says, "This is a creative sector."

Charles:

Well, and obviously, as the world continues to evolve, and heaven knows you're stuck at the middle of one of the most dynamic debates around that. The importance of companies being innovative, and original, and being able to provide different kinds of answers to different problems becomes more and more fundamental, because-

Dame Carolyn Fairbairn:

Completely.

Charles:

Right. You're losing geographic.structure and cohesion. And so companies have to exist on their own merits even more than ever before, I think.

Dame Carolyn Fairbairn:

Completely. Completely. And challenge everything. And one of the things that I think we've all become better at, and I've certainly spent a lot of time thinking about, is how you do get ideas coming from every part of the organization. And we come from a pretty hierarchical place, where the guys at the top are supposed to have the ideas, and the people who join new are learning, and, actually, I think that so much of this is on its head now. And I certainly find that, at the CBI, that so many of the best ideas we've had have come from people who've been relatively new into the company, and to the organization. And that's a new thing. That's a really new thing.

Charles:

And a challenge for leadership, because you have to learn how to listen to the entire organization. Which, structurally and almost emotionally, we're not built to do very well.

Dame Carolyn Fairbairn:

We're really, really not built to do it. And, as much as anything, it is about how you make those new people, really sort of interesting, diverse young people come in, feel that they can challenge, can have ideas. And there was a value... I learnt a lot at McKinsey, McKinsey had lots of values, but the one value that stuck with me is, if you joined McKinsey, you were told that you had an obligation to dissent. The obligation to dissent is part of what you are told on Day 1, as a kind of fresh faced new thing, and I've remembered that. And I think, if you're not careful, young people come into organizations not believing that they have, not even the obligation to, but the right to. And I think that's a real leadership change that we've seen. It certainly something I [inaudible] to.

Charles:

I agree. I'd never heard that actually, and it explains a lot actually. Because you're right, human beings want to belong, and want to connect, and so therefore deciding I'm going to walk in and start disagreeing is counterintuitive, and actually unnatural to many people. But, from a business standpoint, yes, you become much more valuable when you are promoting, "Think differently." Right.

Dame Carolyn Fairbairn:

You're supposed to think differently, and that's your job is to think differently.

Charles:

Right.

Dame Carolyn Fairbairn:

Jobs become more interesting, and... But I think you're absolutely right, Charles, hierarchy is easier. It is easier to have command or control. And I think we've... I've certainly had to become, one of the things, you know listening has become so important. And I think the other thing I feel that we're all grappling with, is how we create true inclusion in organizations. Because, there's absolutely no doubt that's where good ideas come from, when you have-

Charles:

That's absolutely... Unquestionably.

Dame Carolyn Fairbairn:

Real diversity. But not everybody feels that they... Inclusion is quite complicated, I mean it really is, and I'm learning that more and more. And I think we're getting better at gender, long way to go, but how we create real inclusion across all backgrounds and all different kinds of ethnicity, and all of the different dimensions, that's a big part of creativity, I think.

Charles:

Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more. And it's interesting because it's such a struggle, I think both genetically, because I think men like to step in, feel responsible for-

Dame Carolyn Fairbairn:

Yep.

Charles:

And I think it's a real struggle for many, even who are conscious of the need to develop female leadership and have an inclusive, equal dynamic in the leadership team, you literally watch the genetics take over. And they don't realize they're doing it until you step back and point it out and say, "Did you notice, when you did that, how she reacted in the room?", for instance. And, "Did you see that she felt slightly bullied by that dynamic?".

Dame Carolyn Fairbairn:

It's completely right. And, I think, despite being female and having... I think I'm so much more aware of it now, that you can have all sorts of situations where, and I observe it now, where women, they just wait to speak, or they start something with almost an apology. But there was a woman I had the most enormous admiration for, Helen Alexander, a truly great leader, and I do remember, though, her saying something to me, which has always stuck with me. Because I've always said to young women I work with, "Don't start with 'I'm sorry but I've got a point to make', 'Do you mind if I do this?'", and Helen said to me, "Well why shouldn't they? Why is it that women have to become more like men to be heard?" And I thought that was a really powerful point.

If women do want to, or anybody, I don't think this is necessarily a gender trait, want to be heard in a different way, maybe it's up to us to hear them in a different way. We're learning, also, quite a lot about how this plays out across different kinds of faiths. We have different ways of being heard. And I think one of the things... I feel I've grown up in a generation where women have had to be quite a lot like men, I think that's changing, and that would be a good thing.

Charles:

Are you conscious in yourself in that? Do you feel like you've had to show up like a man more often, in order to be successful?

Dame Carolyn Fairbairn:

I think my early years were more like that than they are now. I think from the point where I did start having more responsibility, it happened to coincide with when I had my family, and I think I was lucky. I worked in an environment where I was able to do both and I had some really good teams and people I was working for. And I think I made a conscious decision, actually, that I was going to show up as myself.

But I felt it. I felt the pressure, and certainly I've always been quite careful to be heard, to make my point, and at some times when it wasn't always the most comfortable thing to do. And I've also recognized, I think I've been very lucky, and I've had the right environment, I've had a partner who's very supportive, not every woman has that. And I do think we all need to show up as ourselves. And I think it's very linked to creativity, I think it's linked to fairness, I think it's linked to productivity, I think it's linked to how well a firm does. So, I've tried to be myself but I've certainly felt the pressure.

Charles:

How did you figure out who you were? Did you sit down and consciously think about, "I want to show up like this. This is who I think I am at my best." Or did that emerge over time through instinctively? Because I think a lot of people, both men and women, struggle with that?

Dame Carolyn Fairbairn:

I think it's a really good question, as to whether you are consciously deciding to try to be somebody. There were certainly moments, which had a real impact on me. I remember, during my BBC days, I had 360 degree feedback. And all the numbers, you get all those numbers, and they tell you something, but the comments are always the most powerful, aren't they?

Charles:

Yes.

Dame Carolyn Fairbairn:

And one of my comments said, "Sometimes Carolyn arrives at work, she comes in the door, and she walks on the left hand side of the photocopier, and she comes and says hello to us all, and we all feel great. And sometimes she walks in the door and she goes the right hand side of the photocopier, and seems to ignore us, and we don't feel great." And I had absolutely no idea anyone was watching. I had no idea it mattered. I was in my early 30s, I think I was just beginning to take on these roles, and it really brought me up short. And I think that was a point where I thought, "I need to really be aware of what impact I'm having on other people, and the fact that my teams are watching me." And I did change as a result of that, I really did.

But a lot of it, I think, was quite instinctive, and I think I certainly had to...You certainly become more resilient over time. That is something that definitely... When I hit a problem I now think, "Oh, I've seen one like this before." And that, I think, is something that has certainly been instinctive over time.

Charles:

So you gain confidence because you know you've gotten through something similar?

Dame Carolyn Fairbairn:

Very much so. I think that confidence is a very big thing in leadership. I think it actually helps you to run an organization in a way that actually lets more voices be heard. If you don't feel as though you have to be evidently in charge all the time, as it were-

Charles:

And having the answer all the time.

Dame Carolyn Fairbairn:

I think that's a very, very big thing. I think, when I started out, I did think I would have the answer, partly because that's the consulting world, you're supposed to be producing magical reports that has all the answers in it.

Charles:

And will change the future of their business forever.

Dame Carolyn Fairbairn:

And change the... and, you know, you have this one off chance to get at these brilliant ideas, and of course that is just nonsense. It was really nonsense. And I certainly don't think I have, I don't have very many of the answers. Actually I think that’s where leadership does come in, though, is when organizations get stuck. I think organizations can get stuck, you just need some clarity. And sometimes there is a time to have answers, to set up a direction. A lot of the time, I think, it is about listening. You know, we've been going through a whole process at the moment to be thinking about, really the role and the value of business in this modern day, and modern age. And I certainly don't have the answers to that, but I do think that the younger leaders in my organization, they have many of the answers. They come in and they talk about transparency, and honesty, and they start in a very different place from, I think, certainly, my generation did. Turning the clock back three decades.

So, I think that that whole confidence to be able to listen, and to break through when you need to, is a big part of it.

Charles:

Do you think of yourself as creative?

Dame Carolyn Fairbairn:

I do. I do, I think. Well, I think it's part of what I enjoy, but it's... As I say, and it goes back to these definitions, I like to look at the world from all angles and come up with something that is a little bit different. I do think some of the things we did at the BBC, we did kind of see the future a bit. We saw digital was coming down the track like a steam train, we saw the fact that people would be wanting to get their media everywhere. You know, Martini Media? And I think I used that.

I mean I'm quite analytical, I'm very logical, so my creativity isn't a starburst, it's something that comes together in pieces. But I have always enjoyed trying to see something that is a little bit beyond the everyday. And if that's the definition of creativity then, I think so.

Charles:

For sure. For sure. So you're always turning the problem around to look at it from a different perspective, and seeing, if we looked at it this way, what possibility does that create?

Dame Carolyn Fairbairn:

I'm trying to. I'm trying to. And sometimes I'm wrong. Really, really wrong. I think probably the teams who... I've got a fantastic team at the CBI, and I think that they know that they can challenge back when I come up with something that is really barking mad, which I do, quite frequently. They will tell me. Also, that they will trust me to have done at least some filtering.

But a lot of the creativity, I think that, if I do have it, its origins almost always lie in the people around me. It's something that's been said to me, or something I've heard, or a bit of a jigsaw that's come from somewhere else. And I still think, actually, the best ideas these days, especially as I get older, are coming from the people I work with.

Charles:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). So going back to your point about how important it is to listen to people?

Dame Carolyn Fairbairn:

Yeah.

Charles:

What do you think are the conditions in which creativity flourishes? You've seen business from so many different angles: the BBC, a massively complex institution; ITV, a big complex institution obviously; McKinsey, large and complicated in its own way as well. What do you think are the conditions in which creativity thrives?

Dame Carolyn Fairbairn:

They are all such different organizations, in some ways, but they were kind of similar in some ways. I do think that they all had a very clear sense of purpose. You knew what you were there for. Funny enough, at the BBC, it was still pretty Reithian, you know, that idea of inform, educate ,and entertain, but do it in new ways. ITV was really fundamentally about the positives and connecting; it was about entertainment more than anything else. And McKinsey was all about problem solving for clients. So, that, I think, is really important. So, I think, leadership... one of the first things you have to do is to really make sure everybody in the organization understands what you're there for.

Charles:

And to declare that clearly.

Dame Carolyn Fairbairn:

To really declare that clearly. And sometimes you need to go through a whole conversation to clarify. You might think you know what you're there for. Actually the BBC was quite good at that. So, it regularly had a big conversation about how it reinvented itself for a new age, so it did have to reinvent itself for a digital age, and I'd like to think I was part of that. So, that's a big thing. But I think a second big thing is this idea of teams of all the talents. Real inclusion, real firing on all cylinders. And interestingly, at the BBC, we did have a real look at the creative process, and it was that alchemy between being good at getting data in, you know there's no good being creative on the back of a whim?

Charles:

Yeah.

Dame Carolyn Fairbairn:

And that's why, you know, if I go back to, you've asked me whether I was creative? Only with the right data. I think you have to have analysis. So you have to have identified a need, you have to really understand what your client, or your member, or your customer, or your viewer want. And then you've really, really got to let people... give them the freedom to be able to challenge and have ideas. So for me those would be the really big things.

And, so I would actually just add one more thing in, you do need the leadership at the end of the day, if things do get stuck or go wrong, to be able to say, actually, "Kill that idea; it's not working." I've seen a lot of organizations where failure isn't fast enough, and actually that deadens creativity, I think.

Charles:

People talk a lot about being willing to fail. I've never met an organization that was actually built to do that, and really encouraged it. I could never find failure as a line item in the P&L, for instance, which I thought was really telling. If you really meant it, you'd budget for it in some fashion. Creativity and innovation requires risk, how do you build a tolerance for risk into an organization?

Dame Carolyn Fairbairn:

It's a really, really... I think more and more about this actually because, particularly in the last few years, where I'm running an organization where we are constantly communicating and we get things wrong. And any organization that is 24/7 out there, media organizations, tech companies... You're going to make mistakes, and you're going to launch things that don't work. For me, a really, really big part of that is, don't blame. Don't blame.

Charles:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Dame Carolyn Fairbairn:

I've worked in organizations where there's a lot of blame flying around, there is nothing worse than that sense of humiliation you feel when, you're being singled out. And I've seen it. And everybody watches it, and next time there's a risk to be taken no-one will take it. So, it's something that I think I've tried to do more and more, if there's a mistake made then work out what happened, not who did it, and approach it that way. And the more you do that, the more people see it, the more willing they'll be to give it another go another time.

Charles:

That's really, really insightful. The counterpoint to that, or the other side of that equation, is that you have to make sure that the people you're bringing in are worthy of that trust, right? What are you looking for in the people that you want around you?

Dame Carolyn Fairbairn:

It's interesting. I think that, again, one of the things I probably would have done in my early years, McKinsey, somewhere, is I would have recruited on the basis of proven ability, the exam results, the intellect, whatever. I more and more, now look for attitude and values. And they're hard things to test for.

Charles:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Dame Carolyn Fairbairn:

But you can, if you have the right conversations and you... I would now, bringing somebody into my organization... A lot of different touch points, a lot of different people meeting them. So, that's one thing, is who you hire. Secondly, I think people behave the way they see those in leadership roles acting, and you've got to be like the organization that you're trying to create. And that could be tough. That can be tough. That means owning up to things, that means being honest when things have gone wrong, that means admitting to making mistakes, that means saying you don't have all the answers. It means very, very clear values about what is wrong and what is right. And that's one of things, I think, that makes leadership roles very difficult now. Everything is out in the public, social media has changed a lot, but you have to live it, and you have to be it, If you want your organization to follow it.

Charles:

Do you go home at night and reflect on, "What did I do well today? And where do I fall short in my own expectations?" Not necessarily of other peoples’, but of your own?

Dame Carolyn Fairbairn:

I think I'm quite tough on myself. I mean I really, really know when I've done something not quite right. Either I performed badly in something, these days I have to do an awful lot of um things in public, and I come out and I sometimes just know I completely made a hash of it. But there are also times I come back and I think, "I didn't quite handle that conversation right." Or, "I didn't quite make that person feel right." And probably I do more of the latter now, than the former.

Charles:

And how do you respond to that recognition?

Dame Carolyn Fairbairn:

Sometimes I will actually try and correct it. So, it goes back to my photocopier example. I know that, if I have got something wrong, in terms of the way I have handled something, I'm pretty quick to apologize. I think apologies go a long way. I'm pretty quick to pick up the phone, I think one of the things about email is that we can get too distant, and I think there are times when you just need to have a direct conversation, so I will do that quite a lot. But if I can't do any of those, and sometimes the moment is gone, you know-

Charles:

You just move on.

Dame Carolyn Fairbairn:

You just do it differently next time. And I think I do spend a lot of time thinking about whether I was the right kind of leader.particularly my organization right now. We're in the eye of a storm, and I have a lot of really bright young people who are finding themselves in these quite exposed positions, how they feel supported, at the same time as feeling challenged and all of those things, I think it's certainly stretched me in my leadership experience.

Charles:

Yeah, I'm interested to know, because you are, to your point, you're in the middle of a hurricane actually, right? And it's a long-term, long-lasting hurricane, that will not go away.

Dame Carolyn Fairbairn:

Totally. Totally. Yeah.

Charles:

Putting aside the practical aspects of Brexit, from a personal standpoint, to be sitting here as a representative of a very large entity within this construct, within this debate... An existential debate really, in many ways. How do you maintain your equanimity when you express your point of view, when you provide leadership to the organization, when you represent the people? How do you maintain that in the face of, in some cases, enormous personal criticism and attacks? Does it feel personal? Are you able to create a shield around yourself? How do you cope with that?

Dame Carolyn Fairbairn:

It's really interesting because it's actually very new for me. Although I've been in a fair number of leadership roles, it's only in the last few years that I've been in a really public role, and it's been quite a journey. I think there are few things that you can do. The first thing, I really have tried to protect my organization from it. And I took on this role knowing that I was it, really, but there are a few things. I have kept pretty calm through it, there has been quite a lot of personal criticism. But it goes back to having a real belief in what you're trying to do, And one of the reasons I wanted to do the job, is I do believe, really fundamentally, in business as a force for good. I do believe in the power of business to create real opportunities for people. To create great jobs for people, the ability to actually make amazing breakthroughs that change lives whether it's in health or-

Charles:

Yeah, for sure.

Dame Carolyn Fairbairn:

And I think that has actually kept me going. And because we have, it's a membership organization, where that sense of true north, it does run through CBI members, that has really... But I don't deny it, there've been some really tough days where I've come home in the evening and I've thought, "God. I can't stand this. I can't stand this heat." I don't really like confrontation, but I think that sense of knowing that you're doing the right thing... I've tended not to rise to it, so I don't fight back, as it were, at least if I do, I've done it quite calmly and with evidence, so I think that has helped. But yeah, I have to say, I think a lot of people in leadership roles now are facing a level of public criticism that is unprecedented, and resilience is everything.

Charles:

What's your relationship with fear?

Dame Carolyn Fairbairn:

Mm. It's something I actually talk quite a lot about when I talk to young women, in particular, or young people in general, but young women in particular, that I've had a lot of fear. I think fear is okay. I've had a long-standing fear of standing up in public, and people judging me, and certainly a fear of failure, which I think probably goes back into my childhood. But, I also know you can deal with it. And I quite often just describe stories of when I've been absolutely petrified, I quite often am petrified... But you do learn that, actually, you can do it.

And so, when I talk to young people coming up through who feel fear, I say, "It's absolutely okay. Everybody does." Every leader you see, every president; Barack Obama, Bill Clinton, Tony Blair... all of these people... Well, maybe not President Trump. But everybody feels fear, it's okay. And the more you do something you're afraid of, the easier it is the next time. And I think it's a really important thing to be able to overcome.

Charles:

So your relationship with it is that it's something that you have to overcome?

Dame Carolyn Fairbairn:

Yeah.

Charles:

It's interesting, because when I started this podcast, that was my reference point too. I thought that was everybody's relationship with fear, and what I've learned is that there are four relationships actually. Some people are like you and I, we have to overcome it. Some people use it as a catalyst, “The status quo is so terrifying to me I have to move forward." Some people use it as a thermostat, they're not doing something interesting or compelling enough until they feel that anxiety, and so they keep pushing for, "The idea’s not big enough"-

Dame Carolyn Fairbairn:

Oh, how interesting. Yeah. Yeah.

Charles:

Right? Like, "I've got to have that anxiety," of, "Okay this is actually worth getting into now." And then, occasionally, some people will say they have no fear, and they're probably the most dangerous leaders of all, because I think fear is actually a very, very valuable set of guard rails, right? To know, what are the outer parameters? From any angle. So I think the people who say, "I'm not really afraid of anything," those are the ones I really worry about.

Dame Carolyn Fairbairn:

Yeah. Honestly I think fear is pretty healthy. It also is a... I think what is true is it is a good warning, too. If you've got an instinct that you're afraid something is not going to go well, and I do get this quite a lot, I reflect on something that we're going to do, a decision that we've just taken or about to take, and there's that instinct in you, that tells you that it's not quite... I do listen to that. I really do. So maybe I do recognize a little bit of that.

I think the only other thing I would say that, with fear, is that I don't think it is the best galvanizing emotion, at all. I mean, I look at our environment at the moment, I think there is a lot of fear, I think there really is. I still believe people perform their best on the basis of dreams, of hope, of ambition, of making a positive difference, not fearing making a negative one. And that's, I think, one of the things we all need to try and change. I think there's too much fear around at the moment.

And again I think that's why, for most, it is a question of overcoming it, because you need to be able to communicate that sense of optimism, that I still think is what most people want to feel, in their lives, in their work, in their countries, in their politics. So, I'd like to see if we can move to a - we've got a new decade about to start - whether we can move to a place that's got more optimism than fear in it.

Charles:

Yeah. I think it's also fundamentally essential, because as the workforce continues to change and evolve and Millennials and Gen Y and Gen Z come in, they have a completely different set of values, don't they? Much more oriented towards, "Let's create a different, better future."

Dame Carolyn Fairbairn:

Very much so.

Charles:

Totally different. Businesses have to respond to that, leadership has to respond to that, because they're not going to stick around companies that don't provide them with that reference point.

Dame Carolyn Fairbairn:

I think that's absolutely right. I talk about this quite a lot with friends of mine, that I think that we put up with a lot more, actually. We possibly put up with more frustration in our work, we possibly put up with a bit more fear in our environment than I think this generation will.

Charles:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Dame Carolyn Fairbairn:

And I admire that. I think that is a really good thing. And we should all... That's why we need to listen to this generation, because they are demanding things that, with the benefit of hindsight, maybe we'd all like to have demanded, actually. It makes me optimistic about the future, actually, that we've got a generation coming through who have got those values. And it's up to, since it's our generation, to create the bridge between them and us. To try and make the change happen now, I don't think we should be waiting for them to become CEOs themselves before we make all this happen.

Charles:

Exactly. Exactly. If you look back, do you have any regrets? Clearly you're not finished yet.

Dame Carolyn Fairbairn:

I'm not finished. I think, funnily enough, I think probably I did... I think I wish I was a bit more challenging, younger, about the kind of things I wanted out of my career. I think I have really enjoyed taking on leadership roles, and I think I was relatively late to it. You know, I was trying to combine it with a family, and there are all sorts of reasons, but I think that is probably my biggest, because I could have done more earlier, but it's... That's probably the main one. I don't think I've got many and, as you say, I've not finished yet.

Charles:

How do you lead?

Dame Carolyn Fairbairn:

I think I lead collaboratively. I think I lead quite calmly. I keep my head in a crisis. I'd like to think I praise a lot, I think it goes back to this point about people feeling good about what they do. I'm firmly of the view that almost everybody is trying to do their best at work, and we all need to remember that when things go wrong. I do try and bring clarity, I think people, again, I've always really valued that, knowing where I was going and why. So those are some of the things that I think define me. And I think I lead by listening. I lead by listening.

Charles:

And what are you afraid of?

Dame Carolyn Fairbairn:

I think I'm afraid of getting it wrong. Not for me, I think I am kind of through that, and beyond that. I'm afraid of letting people down. I think, particularly at the moment, I feel quite a responsibility towards my organization and to my members. And, even bigger than that, I feel a responsibility to our country, in a frightening kind of way, and that doesn't sound too grand. There is a really important voice of common sense and evidence about the role of business, and the value it can bring, at a time when ideas are lurching to the extremes. Either massive state intervention on the one hand, or massive deregulation on the other hand. And I suppose I fear letting down that voice that has to go through the middle. I think that's probably always been the case, I've always been worried about, sort of fearing, just not doing a good job on that core thing that I've set out to do.

Charles:

I wrap every episode with three themes, three takeaways that I've heard, that I think contribute to your leadership success, so let me throw these at you. One is, I think you have a very strong sense of intention, you're clear about what you're trying to achieve in each situation, which allows you to move through criticism, obstacles, problems, uncertainty.

Two, I think you have a very strong sense of self. You've obviously thought about that, you've acquired that, you've developed that, but I think you walk into situations, it seems to me anyway, clear about, "This is who I am and this is what I'm going to bring to the table. And this is me at my best." And that also gives you the ability to judge whether you've actually brought that, and to evolve that as you go.

And then I think, third is, and you've talked about this a lot, I think you listen. And I think it's one of the talents that has emerged, across the podcasts that I've done, that is probably the most valuable and important modern leadership discipline, if you will. The willingness and the ability to listen well and to then to do something with that knowledge, I think is just fundamental these days. I'm not sure how people lead successfully without the ability to listen, in the modern world. How do those resonate?

Dame Carolyn Fairbairn:

They, I think, fit. I mean they're very kind and charitably put, but they nicely haven't dwelled on the flip side. But I think that the listening one, I think I'm very aware that that isn't taught. That isn't taught. And I don't think I necessarily started out that way, in fact I know I didn't, I think I thought I had to have answers. And that if I didn't have answers then I wasn't doing my job. And I think I'm still learning on that. And how you listen to different kinds of voices. I've got so many different voices in my organization now, from walks of life that I'm not familiar with, you know, really not. From different nations, from different backgrounds, so it's certainly not a journey I'm finished on yet, I don't think.

Charles:

Carolyn, thank you so much for joining me. What a fantastic conversation.

Dame Carolyn Fairbairn:

Thank you Charles, I've enjoyed it. Thank you.