"The Partners - Revisited"
This is the 100th episode of ‘Fearless Creative Leadership’.
So what stands out 100 episodes in? What makes fearless creative leaders successful? If you’ve listened to even a few of these conversations you’ll know there are many themes. But, two show up over and over again.
The best leaders are hopeful.
And the best leaders listen.
And that’s a real change in how the role of leadership has been defined for the last fifty years.
In this episode, I sit down with my guests from Episode 1 - Justin Stefano and Philippe von Borries, the founders of Refinery29 - about what they've learned in the two years since our first conversation.
Note: We talk about Zappos management structure and philosophy. It's called Holocracy.
Three Takeaways
A passion for helping others find their voice and express themselves
The willingness to constantly ask questions about what's possible, what else could we do, where else could this go?
The ability to look at the other point of view.
"FEARLESS CREATIVE LEADERSHIP" PODCAST - TRANSCRIPT
Episode 100: "The Partners - Revisited" - Justin Stefano and Philippe von Borries
Hi. I’m Charles Day. And this is the 100th episode of ‘Fearless Creative Leadership’.
So what stands out 100 episodes in? What makes fearless creative leaders successful? If you’ve listened to even a few of these conversations, you’ll know there are many themes.
But, two show up over and over again.
The best leaders are hopeful.
They believe in the power of possibility, usually more than anyone around them. And on a human level, that’s intoxicating. We want to be around hopeful people.
And the second thing?
The best leaders listen.
And that’s a real change in how the role of leadership has been defined for the last fifty years.
The old definition of leadership was that it had a lot to do with one-way broadcasting. You had a vision, and a plan to deliver that vision. And you told everyone. And they listened to you. And followed orders. And that was that.
But today's most successful leaders spend at least as much time in receiving mode. They are active and enthusiastic listeners. They seek out ideas and opinions.
And then they decide.
In Episode 101, you’re going to hear from one of the world’s most famous leaders.
Someone with a reputation for doing it their way.
And what might surprise you is how much time they spend listening and how much value they place on it.
This episode is a return conversation with my two guests from Episode 1. Phillipe Von Borries and Justin Stefano - the co-founders of Refinery 29. I wanted to find out what they’ve learned about leading in the two plus years since we last sat down.
The challenges of growing a creativity-driven business are always evolving.
Sometimes in ways we see.
Sometimes, as you’ll hear from our conversation, in ways that you’re not always aware of until you stop for a bit and reflect.
Which highlights a simple truth.
Successful leadership comes not just from how well you listen to others.
But how well you listen to yourself.
In my work, a lot of my focus is helping leaders know themselves better. Because when they do, they surprise themselves with what they’re capable of.
Here are Philippe Von Borries and Justin Stefano.
Charles:
Philippe, Justin, welcome back to the 100th episode of Fearless. I can't believe it's 100 episodes in two and a bit years later. Anyway, welcome back. Thank you for coming back on the show.
Justin Stefano:
Thank you for having us.
Philippe von Borries:
Thank you. Has anyone else come back?
Charles:
Who came back? Oh, yes. Eric Baldwin came back by himself because he had done a duo conversation, and we talked about what he had learned about being a leader. Eric runs Wieden and Kennedy Portland. We talked about what he'd learned about leadership, so that was interesting. We haven't had a repeat episode, and this is a repeat episode.
You guys were the inspiration, because you said to me at one point, "We want to come on the 100th episode." I don't think any of us knew whether there would be a 100th episode.
Philippe von Borries:
I can't believe it. Two years is all it took and now you have a library. The shelves are stacked with episodes.
Charles:
I know. They are literally bowing under, with the weight of all of the knowledge that's been accumulated on the show.
Justin Stefano:
By the way, 100 episodes in two years is a lot. That's 50 a year, that's almost one a week.
Charles:
Yeah, I haven't quite maintained one a week, but I've been pretty close to it. I had a couple of spells of three or four weeks, where I took time off, but it's been really interesting. Actually, I find the discipline of doing it is really important actually, because it's always like, who do you want to talk to? I get a lot of incoming inquiries these days as well, so trying to figure out who do you want to talk to and what's going to be an interesting conversation, and becoming more discerning.
It'll be interesting to see actually, both in terms of what's going on with you guys, how things have evolved over two years, what you've learned, what you know now that you didn't know then, and I think it's good for me also too, as a piece of reflection. Just getting ready for this conversation, to go back and look at our first conversation, just to see what happened.
Interestingly, when I went back and looked at the transcripts of our first conversation, I realized that I had in fact started episode one with a question that I've asked pretty much everybody. Which is, when did creativity first show up in your life? The question I didn't ask you that has evolved since then is, what's your relationship with fear? Who would like to start? Justin?
Justin Stefano:
Oh Philippe, you should start.
Philippe von Borries:
I think I used to be more of a sort of anxious person, thinking about things that... I mean fear is always there. Fear is in the back of sort everything, but you also realize pretty quickly that nothing gets, at least for me, created out of fear. I do my best work when I can see the outcome, and as much as possible hold steady in believing that that is going to show up and manifest itself. Just fear constricts you in every possible dimension.
I don't know, I think it's a journey along the way in life to figure out how you put fear to the side. I think it just stands in the way of creativity every day. As much as possible, grounding yourself in the belief of doing your best, and believing that things are going to work out is at least a formula that I've tried to hold on to. Probably even more sort of recently over the last few years in that realization of being yourself and things work out, they always do.
Charles:
Do you have a vision? Do you hold onto a vision?
Philippe von Borries:
I think I'm personally probably more of a person who imagines a river and floating down with that, with the current. I think we probably talked about this in episode one. I don't think Justin and I didn't sit here along with our two other founders, Christene and Piera, and said, "Hey, we're going to build this really significant thing for young women." That wasn't the thing, it's not how we started out. We've evolved with where the river has taken us, so that's probably more accurate for me.
Charles:
What about you Justin?
Justin Stefano:
Relationship with fear. I've always found for myself, when I'm experiencing fear, when I'm sensing it, when I'm feeling it, the more I look at it, the more I kind of directly address it, the less scary it gets and the less anxious I feel about it. For me, one of the most effective ways to manage it, is to just really embrace it. Look right at it and try and I guess make peace with it, because there's fear that is... You can have a reaction around something or for something about something that you can control, and then you can try and fix it.
Then there's stuff that you can't control and you can't fix it, but you still have to live with it. The only way to really manage that is to spend as much time as you can working with it, and trying to turn it into something that you can live with, that's comfortable so that it doesn't make you sick. I've found times in my life when I haven't done that, I can get physically sick from it when I'm not actually addressing or acknowledging that emotion or that feeling. For me, that's always been my relationship with it, for better or worse.
It's also something that I've always found very interesting. I've always found scary things very fascinating, like I'm drawn to them. I think it makes probably some people around me crazy sometimes, because maybe I'll focus too much on the stuff that can be scary or the stuff that is broken. Maybe it's because I grew up with a Jewish mom, who actually has an earthquake app on her phone. Every time there's an earthquake that takes place anywhere in the world her phone buzzes, and she'll tell me where that is.
Charles:
Anywhere in the world?
Justin Stefano:
Oh yeah. She's like, "Oh yeah, there was just a 5.3 in Argentina." When we're driving on our way to the grocery story and her phone will buzz. I kind of grew up in a family, I think that has always been very aware of fearful things.
Charles:
What does she do with the knowledge that an earthquake has just happened in the world? She passes it on?
Justin Stefano:
She just passes it on. She just needs to know that it's happened. Maybe it relieves some anxiety for her just to know that it's happened.
Charles:
Wow. Do you both see fear as something you have to overcome?
Justin Stefano:
Sometimes. Sometimes it's something that you need to overcome, and sometimes it's just something that you need to accept, because sometimes it just doesn't go away. Sometimes you just live with it. It's not a bad thing, but you just have to be able to manage it.
Charles:
When you're looking at it, for it, you said sometimes you'll go looking for it, how does that show up? What are you looking for?
Justin Stefano:
Well, you're always looking for the stuff that's broken. It's not necessarily a good quality. I'm not saying this is a good thing, but yeah.
Philippe von Borries:
I think you have to overcome it, I mean it's like dealing with something. I don't know, if you get a heart disease you've got to take your pills. It's something that you have to be like, I have to remind myself. I'm afraid, this is why I'm thinking this way. I think Justin makes a good point, looking it in the eye and then realizing that's just a stupid meeting that I'm feeling fear about. Just another stupid meeting, who cares? At least that's the attitude for me, that then I have to put into perspective and be like...
Charles:
Contextualizing it is important?
Philippe von Borries:
Yeah, absolutely.
Charles:
It's interesting because when I started this podcast, I had a very simplistic view of fear. I thought it was always an obstacle that people were overcoming, and that people who were more successful were better at overcoming it. It goes to your point Justin, we're all afraid, and that people who were less successful had a harder time overcoming it.
What I've learned actually, through 100 conversations and others in my work, is that there are basically four relationships people have with fear. Classically some people definitely have to overcome things. They are afraid of something and their success is dependent on them getting over that, and find a way to move past that. Some people use fear as a catalyst, and they are more afraid of the status quo and of not achieving something than they are of the obstacles that they can see ahead of them of the things they have to overcome. They use fear to propel themselves forward. Some people use it as an almost an internal thermostat, and they say, "If I don't feel fearful or apprehensive," whatever word they choose to use, "then I don't think the thinking is interesting enough. We're not into an area that's relevant if I don't feel that. I actually have to get myself to be afraid before I feel like, okay now we're getting interesting.”
Then they are very occasionally people who think they're not afraid of anything. In some ways they are the most dangerous, because there are things to be afraid of. Fear is a valuable asset, resource, instinct, because it's one of the reasons I think that as a species we're still here. If we hadn't been afraid of all kinds of things over the last couple of thousand years, we wouldn't be here.
Philippe von Borries:
Well that's like the, why I'm I blanking off, the movie that won the academy award for the guy with climbs the….?
Charles:
I don't know. The rock face thing?
Philippe von Borries:
Yeah.
Charles:
I haven't seen it, but everybody says that you go and...
Philippe von Borries:
I mean they attached things to his brain and realized that he felt no fear, so the issue is probably a small subset of the population that literally has that.
Charles:
That is actually physical for them, they can't feel fear. I haven't seen it, I would like to see it, I think.
Philippe von Borries:
You've got to see it.
Charles:
Is it amazing?
Philippe von Borries:
I mean if you want to talk about fear, you've got to watch that movie.
Charles:
I'll make a point to do that. Tell me, two years later, what do you know now that you didn't know then? What's changed in the last two years? What's surprised you about the last two years?
Philippe von Borries:
It's interesting that some things have moved relatively slowly and some things have moved really quickly. I mean I think they're more, I don't know, your episodes and your questions are always more introspective. This isn't a conversation about things that necessarily have happened out in the world. I think it's a conversation about your leadership and the things that you realize around the people, yourself and what you do. That's the way you like doing.
I mean it all just boils down to how you drive toward something I think, the more consistency that you have and the vision that you have. I don't know, in some ways it feels like two years just blew by. What do you think, Justin?
Justin Stefano:
Yeah, it does a little bit feel like not that much has actually... For us, I think we still feel like there hasn't been that much change, although there's been a tremendous amount of change. I mean, if you went back two years ago and you asked us, what do we think is going to happen over the next two years, we should go back and listen to the podcast. I'm sure you asked us the question, I don't remember what we said. I'm guessing we would have said that, premium IP and video was going to become more important than ever. I think that that's happened and we still believe that. I think we've made a lot of progress with that, on that front.
I think that we would have said that the digital advertising market would have been coming back in a stronger way for publishers. I think we've seen less of that, to be honest. I think it's still challenging today, if not more challenging than it was two years ago, which is part of why, one of the reasons why I think you're seeing a lot of consolidation start to happen in the industry.
I think we probably would have said that experiences and live events were going to become increasingly important, as people seek to connect in the real world. Get off their phones, and spending disposable income on stuff that's meaning in their life or relief or fun or distraction, versus traditional ways people have spent money on luxury goods and other things. I think a lot of that stuff has happened. I think the industry has grown a lot in that time and you've seen it all. Right now it's all coming to a head when you look at what's going on with all these new streaming services that all the big telecom and media companies are launching. When you look at the just explosion of live events, especially in the past year that's happened. With the way that marketers are now using that themselves and bringing that expertise in-house. Turning their own stores and locations into experiences. All that stuff has I think really come to pass. I think that we have generally tracked with that as a business and as an organization, which has been good.
There's definitely been I think things that we were probably over optimistic about, especially on the advertising side, and branding content is challenging as a business right now for the entire industry, because more and more brands are bringing that in-house. I think that was an area where I think in hindsight, probably two years ago we were too bullish on that as a, I don't want to say a business model, but as a product line that was going to continue to grow at the pace that it had been growing in the past.
Charles:
Yeah, I mean you guys work in such a volatile...
Philippe von Borries:
By the way, in our world, Harvey Weinstein hadn’t happened yet..
Charles:
I mean I was thinking about that right, so Time's Up and MeToo hadn't happened.
Philippe von Borries:
In our space and what we stand for and what our...
Justin Stefano:
It was happening.
Charles:
Right, I was just talking about it.
Justin Stefano:
It wasn't news yet, but it was.
Philippe von Borries:
That hadn't happened so it's interesting. I just needed to reflect on the question for a second, because sometimes you're so in your own world and think about the things that you do. You think that things haven't moved that much, but man, a lot has actually happened.
Charles:
At least from the outside, it looks like you've slightly shifted the way you talk about Refinery29, is that true? You used to have a millennial minded focus, which I don't see now as part of the conversation as much.
Philippe von Borries:
It's less so generically bucketed. I think that whole thing is at the end of an era, that people talk about speaking to a generation. It seemed silly back then, I mean I even gave a talk in 2016 that's [inaudible] about it. There is this tidal wave of wanting to speak to certain niches, of smaller communities that really identify with something. That's become really big, but then of course going back to me to MeToo, Harvey Weinstein, and everything else, I think our purpose has crystallized even more so over the last two years, in terms of the mission that Refinery serves in amplifying the voices of women and standing for allyship and equality, and all of these concepts that I think have just snowballed over the last two years. Looking back at that, that's probably the biggest cultural thing that has happened.
Charles:
Yeah, and I think it's such an important... I mean there's many aspects of this that I find fascinating. I work with a lot of women leaders. You guys are two men running a business that is specifically designed to support and empower and help women find their voice. I think it is, from my perspective, it has been in some cases difficult to play that role. There are some women who just want to tell you off all the time for being, for certainly what I see in the audience is sometimes that I engage with, I see women who are just frustrated by the fact that men need to show up in a different way. I'm interested in knowing from your perspective as men running...
Philippe von Borries:
You mean they're frustrated that they're not yet showing up at the front way or….?
Charles:
No, they get frustrated at how men, how all men show up. You'll go onto some social media and there is inevitably somebody, occasion you'll find women on there saying, "All men of the advertising industry, you need to do this."
Philippe von Borries:
Oh, that's kind of like talking about the millennial generation. I mean just bucketing things into one thing is never….
Charles:
Doesn't help, right?
Philippe von Borries:
Never constructive.
Charles:
We back up a second, as two men running a business that is now completely focused on helping support women to find their voices, in the era of Time's Up and MeToo, what have you learned in the last couple of years specifically? More generally than that, what have you learned about how you do that? How do you show up as men authentically interested in helping women? What are the challenges of that for you?
Philippe von Borries:
I mean, I don't think of it as a challenge. I mean it sort of runs through our DNA since founding the business. Some of those statements, I mean if people say, "Men need to listen better," it's probably an accurate statement. I think that's a fine thing to throw out there. Look, first of all we've built the business with two other co-founders, so the four of us are still together in building the business. We've done it very collaboratively, and the majority of the people who are our partners in building a business, from the president of North America to the president of the International business, it's all women.
It's not like what happened over the last two years has sort of shifted our narrative. I think it's made us even more conscious of the fact, of the significance that we have in the role that we have in striking a different conversation with other men.
Charles:
Do you feel a greater responsibility now based on Time's Up and MeToo specifically?
Philippe von Borries:
I think it's just the thing of making other men maybe a little bit like... As an example, I mean even like a year ago, two years ago, if women were on stage talking about the patriarchy, you could see men choking up in the room feeling uncomfortable. Actually the patriarchy is just as shitty for men as it is for women.
Charles:
Yeah, for sure.
Philippe von Borries:
I think if anything, part of this journey for Refinery to me actually has been sort of like full circle in this whole thing. I believe it's actually my purpose to play a role in all of that. We feel blessed to be at a point at which there’s such an important cultural conversation, and to be in it in the midst of it. I guess our responsibility in it is, the role that we can play is certainly with regards to other men in the conversation and causing some type of awakening there. Obviously we have amazing women at the frontline speaking to and connecting with other women every single day.
Charles:
Have you evolved in terms of the way the business works so that you are trying to engage men in this conversation as well? Or are you predominantly or exclusively focused on just talking to women?
Justin Stefano:
I mean a lot of the content that we make as a company, while it has female protagonists, while it has women behind the camera, while it has women directing, is still geared to be watched by everyone, especially on the video side. That's a really important part of how we think about when we develop stuff. We don't want it to just necessarily be for just one audience, we want it to relate to everyone. It's also I think very dependent on the type of content and the format.
Like something like video that is going to be distributed on, again, a streaming service or on television, you need to have a wider audience for it. You want it to have a wider audience. More people see it, something that you're reading on your phone or that your audience are reading on their phone, is a way more personal experience. It's a one-to-one experience that you're having in stream quietly, the relationship is different. I think that it also depends a little bit on the content format and also where your audience is consuming it. That also changes a little bit, how broad the aperture is in terms of the audience that you're trying to reach.
Charles:
As you are developing your own business and you're developing your own leadership team through this lens, I'm interested actually, what's the balance of your leadership team in terms of gender?
Justin Stefano:
I think it's about 75% women.
Charles:
You've got people who are, I mean clearly obviously in positions of significant responsibility. Have the last two years changed how you go about helping them to develop their leadership skills or develop their career paths? Are you more conscious of the opportunity, to your point Philippe, in terms of helping women to develop, maximize their potential from a leadership standpoint?
Philippe von Borries:
I think for us, again, our journey's a little unusual and the fact that that's always been part of the DNA. We've never even thought differently. We've been surrounded by women and all the important functions of growing this business every single day. I think the way it actually comes to bear, probably more so is in people in more junior positions thinking about, this is obviously an important cultural moment. It's about women, it's about equality. Equality means that it's about more than women. It's about inclusivity, it's about all shapes and forms of people. That's probably the area where the last two years have taught us more. The two of us, our team, our entire team, and that's the thing that's really come into focus. Are we well represented across every single part of our organization? Which is still a journey, and that's the thing that probably is come into focus the most.
Justin Stefano:
I think that is such an important point. I think that if you would have asked us two, three, four years ago about, "Are you a progressive company?" I think we would have said yes. I think that if you ask us that now in terms of our diversity of our management team and of our business, I would say that we are not. That that's a scenario where we haven't done well and it's something that we're really focused on right now.
While the company is 85% women, it's not diverse in a way that it needs to be diverse when it comes to racial diversity, gender diversity, oh not gender diversity, but lots of other things. That's one that we're very focused on right now, is fixing that because we haven't done as well there as we should have.
Charles:
There were so many powerful things that have come out of Time's Up and MeToo, I think that being one of them. Where it used to be too simple for all of us, I include myself in this, to look at the world through a male-centric lens. Then hopefully evolve towards a gender neutral lens, and be more sensitive to what was going on in terms of how women’s careers were being managed or not managed or undermined in many cases. We've all seen that, certainly I think the three of us have certainly seen that reality. I think to your point, the next evolution is, how do you get to ethnic diversity? How do you get to cultural diversity?
Justin Stefano:
Socioeconomic diversity.
Charles:
Yeah, do you think that's the next frontline?
Justin Stefano:
For us, that's a big focus, I mean from where our company... There's a lot of companies by the way that just need to get just in the baseline.
Charles:
Yeah, for sure.
Justin Stefano:
Just come out of the 1950s still. I think for our business going forward, that's a big focus area.
Philippe von Borries:
It's a focus area for everyone. I think everybody's realized, "Okay, step one of the last two years are, women represented across the board." You've seen in a lot of the past like the one in California about women represented at board level is 50%, massive change, 24 months. The more I sit here and rewind this tape from 15 minutes ago, what you asked me, what's changed in the last two years, a ton has changed.
I think everybody is realizing the fact that, we live in an extremely complex, culturally diverse, ethnically diverse world. Yes, there's men and women, but there is so much more. Is there representation and are we being inclusive in our thinking across the board? That I think to us, it's probably the most motivating part culturally in terms of, where do we go from here.
Charles:
I think that's such an important reference point, because I was in a workshop earlier today, we were talking about people's personal purpose. Somebody said to be, "What's yours?" I said, "To help people unlock their potential. I mean that's what gets me up in the morning, using that cliché.” I think to your point, it's interesting, because as we've embarked on this conversation, we all knew, the three of us knew sitting down we're going to talk about two years from now, two years ago and then what's happened. I'm not sure any of us really had complete consciousness about how much has happened in the last two years until you stop and really think about it.
Philippe von Borries:
That's the virtue of a podcast, sitting in a room and actually taking a minute to reflect.
Charles:
Taking a minute to think about it.
Philippe von Borries:
Yeah.
Charles:
I think that part of the lesson of that, part of the inside of that is that, when we are all so busy that we don't, life just moves on and we are all watching democracy change in front of our eyes and these macro level issues. Time's Up and MeToo happens and these big stuff happens, it's hard I think in a lot of ways to stop for a moment and take stock of what has all of that meant? How are we different as a result? What have we learned from that and how can we apply that going forward?
When we don't do that, we just tend to keep getting caught up in the moment. I was guilty of this as anybody. I think you guys are as thoughtful business leaders as anybody I know. The fact that it's a surprise to you to realize how much has happened in the last two years and how much has shifted, I think is just a good lesson for everybody to say, "It's worth stopping and taking stock and thinking contextually about, what have we actually learned in the last year that we should apply going forward?"
Philippe von Borries:
Yeah, I know it's amazing. Last year I started because my wife Piera who is a co-founder, she was always journaling. I start to do it and I don't do it regularly, but I try to do it at least every once in a while. Sometimes I don't go for a month, but then sometimes I do it every single week. When you look back it's pretty amazing. I think to the [inaudible] of this question, some stuff actually moves really slowly. You look back and you go like, "Wow, that actually, it hasn't changed that much, it's still the same." Then of course there is stuff that is lightyears ahead, so you live in this dual existence. I think your message is clear, you've got to take a minute and remind yourself of what's actually happened.
Charles:
Yeah, I think it's very hard to do. The description you gave of the business right at the beginning, I mean that is such a complicated business to be running. There's so many different factors, most of which are beyond your control, at best a company like yours can hope to influence some of them. You are responding everyday to stuff that is happening out there, and trying to figure out, how do we remain relevant? How do we take advantage? How do we keep up? How do we catch up, in some cases?
As you put all of that together, on a day to day basis, when you're getting up in the morning and you're faced with the challenges of running a business like this, what are you dealing with? How do you prioritize where you focus, other than the things that are actually on fire?
Justin Stefano:
That's a very good question. There's a couple things. For one, you have to track the fires, so you don't want to forget about them and you don't want to not deal with them. I think having a process in place to kind of always keep tabs on them and manage what have you solved, what state of solving are you at when it comes to any specific fire issue that actually needs to be fixed by a certain time? Then you need to make sure that you have enough time in your day to think about the future, and that usually happens, at least for me, that usually happens before 8 AM or after 7 PM. Then the rest of the day tends to be working with our people, who are the ones that on a day-to-day basis are the ones really doing a lot of this, setting the strategy with us and moving the business forward, and solving the problems. Making the content and selling the advertising and setting up the partnerships.
Trying to ensure that they have the information that they need, that they're set up for success and that they're communicating with everyone around. That everyone in the team is communicating in the right way, so that we can move the boat forward, the ship forward as one team is…. That’s probably the majority of the focus goes into that during the day.
Charles:
What kind of people are you looking to hire these days? What are the attributes of people that succeed here?
Justin Stefano:
Creativity is a big thing, big one for us. I think in the past where we've had a lot of success is bringing people that are very creative and can apply a creative lens to solving business problems. While at the same time, being able to bring that right brain, the other side of the brain in to be able to put structure around creative process or creative thinking, so that you can, again, track it and turn it into something that drives the results or the outcome that you want. Finding people that really have that balance is critical.
Charles:
When you're talking about creativity, you're not talking just about the ability to express something through an artistic lens? You're talking about the ability to problem solve in an original lens?
Justin Stefano:
Problem solve, yeah. As a matter of fact that's what I'm talking about, I'm talking about the artistic thing as well. Yes, those two things are actually very… there's a lot of overlap there. You said it, we live in a world right now that's very dynamic, it changes very quickly. You have to be able to react quickly. Setting into motion long lead systematic change in businesses like this right now is challenging because by the time you...
Charles:
Or impossible I would imagine.
Justin Stefano:
Impossible, because by the time you actually solve the problem, it's no longer the problem anymore.
Charles:
Right, it doesn't exist anymore.
Justin Stefano:
The problem doesn't even exist anymore, there's like five other problems that have popped up. Being able to work quickly, creatively, solve problems and do it in a positive way is critical.
Philippe von Borries:
I mean I have two, and then I'm going to tell you about one more thing that's changed over the last two years, because that's the theme of this episode now. The first thing to me always is, I gravitate to clarity. I need clarity. It's like the thing that is, it's cloudy outside, I'm looking out the window, I need people who can show me a way. It's very important for me and be very clear in their thinking. Then the other thing is, look, the other thing that's changed over the last two years is, there's no mincing words in our sector, in our industry. It's been tougher times.
Three years ago, four years ago there wasn't a day that wasn't going by where some new media company had raised $40, $50 million. That era sort of closed, so we're sitting on one of the best brands in the space with a big business, diversified and it's still a tougher time in terms of future proofing your business and everything else. You need people who have been around the block a couple of times. To your point earlier about fear and everything else, there's a certain amount of grit required of saying, "Well, I can make that happen. There's a boulder in my way and sort of I'm faced by it. Oh, I didn't hit my number there, I sure as hell am going to hit it the next month," or whatever it is. I think that becomes more and more clear. You need to have people who've been around the block a few times.
Charles:
How much do you think that is the changing dynamics of the environment, the world, the industry, the business, the economy? And how much of that do you think is you're maturing as a leader, as leaders? How much of that is you're being more confident in the things you're good at and more willing to look at, recognizing the fact that there are other people who have expertise that is more valuable? Do you see that playing a role as well?
Philippe von Borries:
I mean as the journey progresses, it's very clear that there’s a certain part of the world that we're better at than other things. By the way, Justin and I have this very collaborative relationship. We also have certain things that we're probably individually better at or vice versa. I think our thing has always been about, we're good at envisioning and thinking about what's next. We're good at driving something forward.
I mean particularly for me when there's a goal inside and it doesn't matter if the process is like three or six months. If the goal is clear of what we're trying to accomplish and the organization rallies behind it, I'm going to drive towards that. I think the more we realize it, I don't think for, at least for myself, I excel in the nitty gritty of the contact organization or the sales organization. I don't think people want me there either. I want to go back there sometimes and question certain things.
Every once in a while you realize that that's actually really important. Then you get people who get annoyed along the way that you dip back in, but every once in a while it's important. No, but I think the more you do this, the more you realize that the origin of what you created is probably also the part of the story that you're the best at.
Charles:
Yeah, for sure, the founders are always the best people to tell that story, aren't they? What about you Justin? How have you matured or evolved as a leader?
Justin Stefano:
One thing that I've been thinking about a lot and that I think is important to remember about us is that, we started this business when we were 24 years old. We never really had jobs before this.
Charles:
On the back of a napkin, literally.
Justin Stefano:
On the back of a napkin.
Charles:
Literally. As we told that story in episode one.
Justin Stefano:
Yep, so everything that we've learned about leadership, good and bad has been in the field. We have an executive coach that we work with who's fantastic. We have a board that we love and that have been very supportive, and they've guided us. We've never worked with, directly with a visionary leader that we've been able to emulate or learn from, and then apply that to what we're doing now. Everything that we've learned has been through trial and error, and so there's been some things that have worked, and there's been some things that haven't worked. I think every year you look back and you become a couple percentage points better. I think in the past year, past 18 months and then there's been a lot of learnings, good and bad.
We've taken a lot of licks, good and bad. I think that for us, that leadership and learning is really something that happens, it's an ongoing process and it's an ongoing thing that happens through experience. I think that knowing what we know now, I think if we'd gone back 24 months ago, there's probably a lot of things we would have done differently. That's I think just the nature of who we are based on our personal stories and how we came to where we are in our careers and our lives.
Charles:
How do you lead today, do you think?
Justin Stefano:
I would say more for me personally and I don't know, you have to ask the people who work with us, they might have a very different perspective on this. I'd say for me personally, certainly with a longer leash than I have at any point in my career in the past. I think that the more space and this is a kind of learning last year, I think the more space we've given the teams and the more distance, not bad distance, I mean very, very connected. We talk five times a day and all that.
I think that the more you're able to step back and just let people do what they do best, the better the product is. I think that's been a big learning over the past two years. It's something I think that we all kind of go for on an ongoing basis, it's something that I think we'll take with us as leaders. At least for me in terms of the way that I manage going forward. That's been I think a big learning.
Charles:
Where did that come from? How much of those are driven by your own personal growth and evolution? How much of that is driven through, to your point experience about what works and what doesn't work? I mean, are you more confident now despite the craziness of the industry you live in?
Justin Stefano:
Yes, 100%. If you could take that confidence and go back two years, you might have a different outcome.
Charles:
And the confidence….?
Justin Stefano:
Yeah, but we have to look forward for the next and that's why you have the next two years going forward, and the next two years after that.
Charles:
Right and the confidence is just from having seen more and done more?
Justin Stefano:
Seen more, done more, failed more in certain ways, succeeded more in other ways. You know, you learn more from the failures than you do from the successes. I think that was another thing, is that we ran this business through a period that was just red hot in the market. We went from a million and a half dollars of revenue in 2010, or, sorry, 2011 to over $100 million in 2016. When something's grown like that, you learn some stuff, but there's a lot of stuff you don't learn, because success and growth, they can hide flaws and they can hide challenges. I would say in the past two to three years it's been more challenging, because the market in general has been more challenging. I think probably the amount that we've learned in the last two years is more than we have learned in probably the 10 years prior to that. In terms of leadership, in terms of business management, in terms of managing growth, in terms of all the things that go into running not only a great and successful business, but also kind of a healthy and happy company.
Charles:
From a leadership standpoint, not from a business strategy, but from a leadership standpoint, what do you wish you'd learned earlier? What do you wish you had discovered sooner?
Justin Stefano:
For me personally, and again, we have our own experiences here, I think on the management side, probably creating, just allowing for more space I think would have been, yeah. That's on a go forward basis, I'm going to, obviously I'll do, but I would say that is probably an area.
Charles:
Does that trust in other people?
Justin Stefano:
I would say it's less about trust in other people, because I've always had a lot of trust in other people. I think it's more about the need to know. When you build something, again, from the first brick, you know where everything is. You've organized the house and you've built the house, you know where the screws are drilled in. Then as the company grows, you no longer know all that stuff, and so being able to get comfortable with the fact that you're not necessarily aware of everything that's holding the foundation together anymore, but just... I mean, I guess that is a form of trust. For me, it's less about that you trust the people and it's more just about the need to know and understand.
Charles:
I think that's well-said. What about you, Philippe?
Philippe von Borries:
That was a series of questions, which one do you want answered?
Charles:
How's your leadership evolved over the last couple of years?
Philippe von Borries:
Well, actually, to me, it's a little different because I would say that, for a while, we tried to actually run things a little bit more hands off and believe that you can hand a lot of things over and they'll sort of like, not run themselves but believe in the collective to push themselves forward. To me, the realization is more been than ever that people are actually looking for somebody to steer the ship or to make a decision. I think if anything the decision making and expecting other people to make decisions, that really hasn't fully played out that way. I think people expect us to make decisions and make them faster.
Accepting the fact that at the end of the day you're in the driver's seat. You've got to move forward and sometimes you like the notion of other people stepping in and making that decision. To answer your [inaudible], you're the one person to make that decision and drive it forward. For me, personally, it's been a big realization over the last 12 months.
Charles:
What gets in the way of making decisions faster? I think that's something that a lot of leaders struggle with.
Philippe von Borries:
I mean a lot of things do. I mean the way I operate is, I like to hear multiple different angles. I think what gets in the way is just recognizing actually, again and again and again that people just need a decision. It doesn't matter if it's a right or wrong decision, actually we just want a decision, so give me a decision. I think it's just often fear that get in the way, am I making the right decision? That's probably the thing that gets in the way and it's still the reminder that hey, this is about moving forward. There's a million decisions between here and tomorrow, so just that reminder that it's about quickness that people want. Otherwise, people feel like they get stuck, which probably a critic maybe that people would have said. Then the other personal thing, what was the other question that you asked? What have you...
Charles:
What do you wish you'd learn sooner?
Philippe von Borries:
What do you wish you had learned sooner? I think the thing for me is, I don't particularly love conflict. I think that there is a way in which you embrace it, in which it becomes a lot easier to deal with. When you run a business, there's conflict. As many decisions as there are to be made, there's a lot of conflict. Seeking it out and realizing that no one's giving up their power, it's a fine thing to deal with, is a really important thing.
Charles:
Obviously there's a lot going on in the world, in your world. There's all kinds of rumors, which we're not going to speculate on here today. I'm curious, as the business continues to evolve, and as the industry in which you operate continues to evolve, have you started to think about your own transition? Have you started to think about your own long-term relationship with the company and what that looks like? I mean, to your point, you're both so central to this business. You are the founders in every way, shape and form. To your point, Philippe, people look to you to make decisions.
In whatever way this business evolves, whatever path you choose taking, have you given thought to what your long-term relationship with it looks like? What you want it to look like?
Philippe von Borries:
With our business?
Charles:
Yeah.
Philippe von Borries:
No. That’s too close--
Charles:
You see yourselves being part of this for as far as you can see?
Philippe von Borries:
I don't know if that's the answer, no, I think there's different chapters to life. I don't think I'm going to be sitting here with you in like 450th episode-
Charles:
400th.
Philippe von Borries:
... whatever in however many years that is.
Justin Stefano:
That's only four years, isn't it?
Philippe von Borries:
I know.
Justin Stefano:
The amount of podcasts this guys records.
Philippe von Borries:
I won't be sitting here in another 15 years probably and I think something else will come. I do believe that we're at a place where there's going to be another chapter. I think we have a few chapters in life, we don't have dozens, right? There's going to be something else, but beyond that note, it's a little too close. I mean for right now, this is the single focus.
Charles:
This is everything.
Philippe von Borries:
I think it's more about purpose and other things that transcend all of that. But for right now, this is the thing. It's too close to home to have thought about that next thing.
Charles:
Same for you?
Justin Stefano:
I mean for me...
Philippe von Borries:
You did mention that you wanted to start a sausage farm upstate.
Justin Stefano:
Yeah. I've been fantasizing about getting out of the media business and start opening a farm upstate.
Charles:
This is a perfect forum to announce that. Refinery29 under change of ownership and leadership, awesome. You heard it here first.
Justin Stefano:
Exactly. I mean for me I've always operated life in general by just one step in front of the other. It's really hard for me to go out beyond too far out, and right now the next step still looks like this. That's how I just operate in the world, because it's just too hard to predict.
Charles:
Well, especially in this industry.
Justin Stefano:
Yeah, in this industry and life in general, you never know what's going to be coming from different directions or what's going to change. That's just how I like to operate, and so, for me, that's how I'm thinking about it, except for the potential to open up a farm upstate.
Charles:
Well, give me a call when you decide to do that, because we have good references of that.
Justin Stefano:
I will. Yeah, you guys have a lot of land.
Charles:
Yeah, we can hook you up with a lot of people. I want to pick up actually, Justin, with you on something that Philippe just said, which is this notion of people wanting leaders to make decisions. You said right or wrong. I think that there's a lot of truth to that. I think particularly in the creative business, people want progress. Progress is more valuable than just taking longer to make sure that the decision is somehow right. You can't make sure a decision is right, right? There's not enough data, not enough input to ever know that this is going to be perfectly right. How do you encourage that? How do you encourage progress without perfection?
Justin Stefano:
Encourage progress without perfection. I think you have to instill a certain amount of urgency in decision making.
Charles:
In your own as well as other people's?
Justin Stefano:
Yeah, and so if you set goals and you have time frames, and you have decision points, then you have to make decisions. It forces a process. I think where things don't go that way is when you have stuff that just… conversations that never end and decisions that never get made, because there's not a process that's forcing it.
Charles:
You're more comfortable pushing people into or giving people direction without perfect data for instance, which is important?
Justin Stefano:
Yeah, I mean, you have to make sure that you're getting enough information, that you're not operating in the dark. The data's never going to be perfect, and so you're going to be operating on what 50% gut, 50% data every time. The decisiveness piece is critical, to the point that Philippe made. I think that it's one of the things that you have to think about though. What are the things that you need to be decisive about and then what are the things that other people need to be decisive about? Those are two separate things, as well.
Again, for me, over the past couple of years, it's been about sifting that out and understanding, what should you be thinking about? What should you be decisioning and what should other people be decisioning?
Philippe von Borries:
It also roles back to conflict, because inevitably some people are going to be pissed off with you for making a decision, so being able to live with that.
Justin Stefano:
Every time.
Philippe von Borries:
I think generally when you make fast decisions, people actually breathe a sigh of relief. You will always have some contingent that’s going to question that throw up dust and why this decision, so being able to role with conflict. Again, just realize that there's a million decisions to be made and you just move, is really critical. That's the thing that can otherwise throw you back, speaking just through a person experience.
Charles:
I think you said it a little while ago, the fact is people, most people in my experience want to be led. They want to know there's a plan, they might not like the plan, most of the time they probably won't like the plan.
Philippe von Borries:
It's true.
Charles:
They want someone to have a plan, and so I think that, that to me that is a big part of the issue is saying, "There is a plan. We're going here and this is the reason to get on board." Most people I think respond pretty well to that, ultimately.
Philippe von Borries:
Yeah, have you ever done an episode about Zappos culture? Don't they have the, what's it called again?
Charles:
Yes, I can't remember the proper name.
Philippe von Borries:
The [inaudible].
Charles:
I went through a couple of workshops actually.
Philippe von Borries:
The decentralized, leaderless culture that I'm blanking on now, you would be very intrigued how it's actually panned out.
Charles:
Yes, I went to a workshop on that probably 18 months ago, where they had a number of different people who would try to go through some version, that included people from Zappos. The case studies, when it had worked, sounded pretty amazing, but the amount of effort that went into doing it is extraordinary.
Philippe von Borries:
That's right, yeah, I think it's the teaching yourself a new way to walk.
Charles:
Totally, right, I mean you literally remove all layers, all titles. The company self-forms into organizing groups or committees, and you join the ones you care about. You can be part of multiple disciplines, multiple processes and ultimately you become completely self-governed. Yes, and there's a technical name which I'm blanking in which I'll put into the intro for this episode. I'll go back and look it up.
There were parts of that, there was a fantastic case study presented by two nurses from the National Health Service in Britain, which is the largest employer in Europe. I mean can't remember how many millions of people, but many millions of people. They talked about how they had managed to make significant improvements in the way that organization worked, which is a bureaucratic nightmare, as you can imagine, spread all over Britain. The way they had empowered change was they had encouraged people on a local level to take responsibility for developing best practices that worked for them, and then communicating those, and then people would glam on to them. Then take those best practices in their own areas and start to reply them and scale them and expand them and so on.
There were a number of case studies that worked. Business in many ways is a pretty efficient mechanism for finding things that really... When something starts to work well, other companies say, "Okay, we want some of that and we're going to copy that stuff." Not many companies are doing that. The suggestion in a way is that, while the theory and if you are willing to put the resources into and practice as well, it can be pretty remarkable. It doesn't scale very easily, and most companies don't have the discipline or the will to go through that process.
There's a lot of ego involved in running a business. There's a pleasure and a satisfaction that comes, from no matter how hard it is, from starting your own entity and saying, "This is in my image, we're sitting in a space that you guys are fundamentally responsible for creating." A lot of people don't want to give that up until they really have tired of it right at the end.
I normally finish with a specific question, which I didn't ask you guys last time, but I'm going to ask you a version of it. My normal question is how do you lead? Instead of asking you that, let me ask you a version of it. How would you like to be able to lead over the next two years that's different from the way you lead today? What would you like to improve about your leadership over the next couple of years? So if we come back and do episode 200, what would you like to be different? What would you like the answer to the question be then?
Philippe von Borries:
Why are you pointing at me?
Justin Stefano:
You can start.
Philippe von Borries:
What would I like to be different two years from now in my leadership. Look, I think one thing that we haven't talked about which is actually a thing that also has changed or crystallized even more over the last two years, is this sense of purpose, and this conversation around purpose. It's sort of everywhere, you can't escape it. Like everything else in life, these things sometimes become almost a little bit cliched. I do honestly believe in my heart of hearts that people want to work for things that ultimately really have really significant meaning.
I want to stay grounded in that, and continue to lead with a spirit of something that makes people feel like they're really living for something bigger and better. That's the thing at the end of the day, at least for me, I feel like that's why I'm here. I want to look back and say, "Wow, I've actually been able to just focus there, more and more and more." That would be my answer.
Charles:
It's a good one.
Justin Stefano:
That's a really good one. I'm going to borrow a little bit of that, because I think, for me as well, that's something that over the next couple of years I would like to connect even more deeply to. Not just in terms of the leadership style with direct reports and on the people I work with directly. I think also just throughout the entire company more. I think that, when I think about two years from now, what I would like to be different, I would like to be spending a lot more time out there in the company, in the other offices, connecting more with people.
I think we've been very internally focused on building the management team, on steering the business on all the stuff we need to do. I think just like connecting with people on a day-to-day basis, bringing that mission out into the field more, not just internally, but externally, is something that I will be striving for for the next two years.
Charles:
I want to read you the three themes that I said, that I highlighted two years ago. Part of it is I'm curious to see whether these have changed at all. I said, “One I think is your passion for helping others find their voice and express themselves. Starting all the way back with companies and individuals and artists who may not have been able to find an audience otherwise, and certainly in your present day of durationl that's also true.”
Justin Stefano:
That's justice, you would feel just as passionate about that today as ever.
Charles:
Just as passionate, and in fact clearer I think. Two years later, strikes me that you are clearer about that today than you were even two years ago, and you were pretty clear two years ago. “Second is your willingness to constantly ask questions about what's possible, what else could we do? Where else could this go?” That's still very much I think part of how this business moves forward and how you drive it forward. I mean, you are ever curious and ever expansive in terms of taking to different places.
“Third, I think is your willingness to look at the other point of view. I think your partnership is really founded on that. Your ability to see the other side and maybe not in the exact moment, but very quickly there after. To understand that maybe somebody else has got a different way of looking at this that might be valuable, and that you should think about that.” Strikes me of that is also still true.
Philippe von Borries:
Oh, absolutely. Actually one of our board members, this amazing woman told me a statement about going to a meeting. She said, "The only way I approach a meeting is what can I learn in this meeting," which is an amazing thing.
Charles:
That's a fantastic reference point, isn't it?
Philippe von Borries:
What can I learn in this meeting, right? I'm not going to walk into it with an opinion, I'm just here to learn something.
Charles:
That's a nice way to finish, thank you.
Philippe von Borries:
I feel like I have to turn the mirror on you.
Charles:
I thought I was going to get out of it.
Philippe von Borries:
100 episodes from here, what do you look forward to? What are you most excited about the journey from here till the next 100?
Charles:
That's a great question. I think the goal I've always had for this podcast is that I want it to be useful to people. I want people to learn from it and be able to learn from it. I think the thing that I would like to be able to do better, is to make sure that the content is presented in a way that it is accessible. That people can extract things that allow them to be better leaders very quickly without having to go through some... I don't want them to have to read a lot of stuff. I'd like to be able to extract two or three or four things that help them very quickly. If I can get better at putting this together in a way that allows that to happen, then I think that will be a real accomplishment.
Philippe von Borries:
Well, I think the amazing thing that you bring to these episodes and to this format is that, you actually allow people to truly look inwards a little bit more. I like that this isn't a trade podcast, notice that we haven't talked about the industry for more than 5% of this podcast. For the next 100 guests, the amazing format to just reflect a little bit more.
Charles:
Well, thank you for saying that. That's what I'm interested in, yes, and the podcast has really added a lot to my life, actually. It's been great. Thank you so much for being at the beginning. Thank you for being here at this moment, and I hope you'll come back on when we get to another milestone.
Philippe von Borries:
All right, well, thank you very much, I can't wait.
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