Lina Polimeni of Eli Lilly and Company
What are you willing to compromise?
"FEARLESS CREATIVE LEADERSHIP" PODCAST - TRANSCRIPT
Episode 272: Lina Polimeni
Here’s a question. What are you willing to compromise?
I’m Charles Day. I believe leadership offers us the greatest opportunity of our lives, to make a difference. I’m asked to help leaders discover what they’re capable of. And then to maximize their impact. Welcome to the intersection of strategy and humanity.
This episode’s conversation is with Lina Polimeni. She’s the Chief Corporate Brand Officer at Eli Lilly and Company. This is a business whose work is often the difference between life and death, where they are trying to cure cancer, and where the outcome is very personal.
In the middle of that reality, your own leadership journey is fueled by a lot of food for thought.
“I think the first part of my life it was, how do I figure out how to get to what I think feels right, my big dreams, my big imagination, in a way that's acceptable to everybody? And that led me to make compromises on everything from partners to jobs to geographical locations. And now I'm on a journey on just saying, I still have those big dreams. I still see it. But it's okay to reach them the way I am. And so the journey is to continue to make space for myself, and it's to continue to show up authentically. I know it's probably overused, but it's true.”
No one can lead effectively without compromise.
But what we choose to compromise has a huge part to play in whether we’re successful.
If what we end up sacrificing is a pathway to discovering that we are already enough… If what we end up sacrificing is a road to realizing that the best version of who we are can help others become the best version of themselves…
If that is what we are compromising, then the cost of that will be the realization that we behaved as others wanted us to. And when they are a part of our past, remembered or forgotten, what we will be left with is a journey that is not the one we started out on. A destination that is not where we wanted to go. And a dream that is always around the corner.
We can be what others want, or we can be who we want to be. We always have that choice.
Here’s Lina Polimeni.
Charles:
Lina, welcome to Fearless. Thank you so much for coming on the show.
Lina Polimeni:
Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.
Charles:
When did creativity first show up in your life? When are you first conscious that creativity was a force in your life?
Lina Polimeni:
Very early, very early on. I think for me, creativity was an escape very early in my childhood. I've learned later on that, you know, there was maybe a coping mechanism, but for me, very, very early in my childhood, I was doing what in Italian is called just, like, dreaming with eyes open. And so daydreaming, I guess. And so I had constant different scenarios running through my head and, and big, big dreams of imaginations or big, big scenarios. And so I've always looked at things that, what they could be and, you know, look at the things at face value since a very young age, and then imagining how different they could be. And so I would say, to me, that is creativity. It's not necessarily just creativity from an academic perspective. And so that was very, very early, not only a presence in my life, but I felt to me, it was a company.
It was almost like having, you know, parallel life or a friend with me all the time. The fact that I could imagine things differently than, you know, than the reality I was in or differently than what they were. And then as I progressed through, you know, with age and in school, creativity was the part where I was probably most attracted to in my school studies, in terms of anything from literature and arts, that's always been kind of what I gravitated towards. In Italy, there's this different high schools, there are different type of high schools. You don't go to high school based on where you live. And so you have scientific high schools, and artistic high school, and then classical high school. And the classical high school, which is really more solely towards Latin and Greek and ancient Greek drama, and reading all the Greek comedy and drama in language, and studying the arts from the beginning of time in prehistory, all the way into modern time. I was raised in Rome, so I was surrounded by art and creativity. And so, I think it's always been a big piece of myself, but I look at it more than what creativity is, how it's defined at work. It's more so art has been a… you know, through music and visual art has always been a huge, huge part of my existence, really.
Charles:
How did you express yourself growing up?
Lina Polimeni:
I wrote a lot. (Laughs) I wrote a lot. I used to love movement. And so, I used to want to dance a lot at the time, for a variety of reasons wasn't necessarily allowed for me. But I wrote a lot. I wrote a lot when I was 11 years old. Some of my writings were published in the newspapers in Italy, which was a big deal. And it was all this imagination-type of driving my writing. So I mostly wrote storytelling was a big part of how I expressed myself. And then, you know, I would put together cousins to do shows. It was always like a show for me. (Laughs)
Charles:
You mentioned at the beginning that you used it later in life as a coping mechanism, is that right? Did I hear that right?
Lina Polimeni:
I think so now, yes. Looking back, I think so. I think so now, yes.
Charles:
Tell me about that.
Lina Polimeni:
You know, I think culturally I grew up in a very traditional family in a… I'm the daughter of a commander, which means a lot for my leadership style today. Like, I've learned a ton from that. At the same time, you know, I always joke, my father was a commander, a man of the south of Italy, and an engineer. So like, the strictest of the strict, this combination, there's a lot of… it was an interesting thing growing up because there's a lot of dichotomy in the way I was raised. On one hand very strict being, you know a girl. And growing up in Italy at that time, and in the southern part of Italy, being a girl has certain expectations. And those are not expectations of self-affirmation or freedom. But on the other hand, my father always raising me towards self-affirmation and understanding of self, while being very, very strict at the same time.
So imagination for me was an escapism to some degree, because I saw, I always felt like I saw more, and there was more than what was in front of me. And so when the reality I had in front of me felt more like caging me in, in certain expectation, imagination for me was a way to just escape that. And then, I can say to some degree, which is great, to be able to say today, there isn't much that I have imagined that I haven't been able to experience or put in reality. So to me, that was a coping mechanism to certain expectations and paradigms that were imposed by the culture at the time.
Charles:
Were you conscious of the duality of your relationship with your father as you were going through it?
Lina Polimeni:
Not as I was going through. I adore my father. I still do. I still do. I adore my father. I wouldn't say I was conscious. I felt discomfort in this expectation that southern Italian society had of me, and to some degree, my family. I was scared of my father growing up, so that's probably the duality. I was very scared of him. He was a very authoritarian man. He is still, you know, alive and, but, I adored him. I looked up to him. I still do. And so I think that is a duality. And I don't know that I was aware of it, but I definitely lived it.
Charles:
You have a powerful presence, right? I mean, you walk into a space, and people feel the presence of your personality. You have a magnetism. To some extent, I would imagine that's at odds with the kind of childhood and adolescence you had growing up. How did you shed that? How did you shed that sense of who you were supposed to be to become who you are?
Lina Polimeni:
I refused it. So growing up, I was always being told, I'm too much. I’m too much. I'm too exuberant. I am too much. But at the same time, I had my parents and my father, especially feeding that part. You know, my father always told me, you are incapable of average efforts. Which is, it's supposed to be a compliment, but, you know, it's formulating in a way that didn't necessarily feel like a compliment. But it is true. I'm not interested in average efforts. There is very much a role for leaders that are, and I always say that, that's just not my role. You know, scaling up, improving something that I've built, and making it bigger. I can do that. But that's not my strength. My strength is in revolution. My strength is in imagining something big and making it happen.
Imagining something people say we cannot do, and do it, and gather people around it to do it. So I've always been told I'm too much, whether it was too dramatic, too loud, and it started in Italy, it's not even a cultural thing. And then, you know, getting to sometimes the corporate America work, I still have to work through some of that. I think the first part of my life, I didn't shed it. I just kind of fought through it, meaning, I didn't feel okay any other way but that. And so when I was being told, you're too much, I was always figuring out, okay, but we have to get to this, and I know I need to get to this. So how do I work my way through it without making it feel like I'm too much?
But I did feel like I was wrong for whatever mold or whatever role or whatever situation. And then I think if the real answer to how I shed it was therapy, without a doubt. You know, going to a personal crisis moment, and thankfully finding myself in therapy and with a great therapist at the time, that's what allowed me to see what I needed to unlearn, and what archetype were imposed on me versus true to me. And gave me the space to ask myself, what do I even like and want? And so, that allowed me to shed that constriction.
Charles:
What was the moment that brought you to therapy?
Lina Polimeni:
My divorce. (Laughs) So I moved to the US after university, and then got my master's in California, and then moved to Indianapolis because of work. And then about, this was about… I divorced maybe five years ago. I initiated that divorce, but it was the undoing of your whole entire existence of how you have created it. And in that mechanism, in that dynamic, the dynamic was very much accusational towards me. And because of how I was perceiving things, I was very much accepting that and internalizing it. So I got into therapy as a way to save all of that, and figuring out how do I fix myself so that I don't hurt people? And in the process of that, because I did have a great therapist, I just worked through, like, no, you know, it's not me hurting people through this. There's just a situation that needs to be led to an end, and is not okay to blame. There's no place for blame in a situation that comes to an end. And so, that moment of crisis is what led me into therapy. And then I stayed for a long time.
Charles:
The challenge to see ourselves for who we would like to be, and navigating the gap often between how we show up on a day-to-day basis, is, I think, a profound one. And one of the great challenges of life. Is that part of the journey that you feel like you're on?
Lina Polimeni:
I am on a journey and continue to make space for myself. I think the first part of my life, it was, how do I figure out how to get to what I think feels right, my big dreams, my big imagination in a way that's acceptable to everybody? And that led me to make compromises on everything from partners, to jobs, to geographical locations. And now I'm on a journey on just saying, I still have those big dreams. I still see it. But it's okay to reach them the way I am. And so the journey is to continue to make space for myself, and it's to continue to show up authentically. I know it's probably overused, but it's true. Authentically and unapologetically. Like, I don't need to, I don't need to fit those molds because I bring something different than other people.
And that's perfectly fine. So I think the journey for me is twofold, is, continue to make space for myself. The biggest challenge that I will continue to work on and I have to continue to work on, is to maintain my heart open to love. Because love, and I mean human love, in general, because that journey becomes so much easier alone. And so, it's so much easier to just say, you know, I'll just stay by myself and be authentically myself by myself, and not interact to protect myself. And so the challenge for me, continues, or the work continues to be, how do I continue to do that? And if you want to paraphrase it, allowing other people to see what is the gift that you bring? We all bring gifts. And so, continue to keep my heart open to love and people. That is the work.
Charles:
It's a challenging tension, isn't it, to show up authentically. And you're right, it, the word is overused because it's actually meaningful. It actually says what we want to say, that's why we use it. But it is challenging to show up authentically, to be able to see somebody else's anxiety, concern, opposition to that, and to not either give into that, or reject them out of hand. To find a balance that allows us to be true to ourselves. Do you feel that tension? Are you conscious of that tension?
Lina Polimeni:
Not anymore, really. I feel it, I see it, but it doesn't create attention for me anymore. Sometimes even at work, you cannot over index on the emotion of, if you disagree with what I have seen in my dreams, then it's used to create tension for me. It doesn't anymore. I can recognize the difference, and it doesn't any longer impact the way I show up. It belongs to you. It doesn't belong to me. As long as I'm not hurting anybody, as long as I'm not disrespectful, it really, I think that has been also an improvement for me from the working therapies, like, recognizing that it is yours, it belongs to you, it doesn't belong to me. And so that helps me not having really the tension. And at the same time, I hope it still keeps me open to hear, because you are not in emotional hijack. And so, there may be things that need to course-correct. There may be, you know, feedback that is helpful. But because you're regulated, and I don't feel that is a personal attack, then I don't feel that tension as much anymore.
Charles:
How has that changed your leadership?
Lina Polimeni:
A lot. I feel, I do think it has changed me a lot. I am always… I've always been, I feel like, a hundred percent focused on the work is what’s the most important to me. But obstacles that got in the way of the work used to cause tension, which then created a charge from me. And I still, you know, I still have a lot of passion. That was another, you know, another piece that was, like, present in every single performance review from, like, my first day at work until two days ago. Too much passion. You're too passionate, too passionate. I still have a lot of passion, but it has changed my leadership because I am able to provide a big buffer for my team. And so, when things are really, you know, highly charged from a leadership perspective, when there's this agreement, I'm able to, again, it's just about creating space and making sure that people can do what they need to do, feel empowered to do what they need to do, and I can buffer some of those tensions. So, I think in that way, it has helped me create a better environment for my team.
Charles:
How do you define leadership?
Lina Polimeni:
Me personally, I define it as going together to one objective. So aligning on a place, a dream. And then getting people there wanting, having people wanting to go there. It's having people see that, and being able to articulate what you're seeing in a way that is tangible and meaningful to them. That's, I think, half of the leader's job.
Charles:
Did you always want to lead?
Lina Polimeni:
I think so, but if you ask my parents, they will tell you that showed off really early because I… it's kind of a running joke, but it's not in the family. Yeah, it's… I mean, that is the definition my parents will give you on me. When I was little, I used to live in a… at some point, I was living in a condominium that had two buildings, and I had organized all the kids in my building against this imaginary enemy that we had in the other building. And there was, like, a whole operation going on with bikes. And so, I think it was pretty early on in my life. And I'm not sure that it's, like, leading for leading sake, but I think I've always had a good intersection between truly connecting with people and then having impetus. And I think those two things together just kind of naturally take me to a leadership position.
Charles:
You've navigated a lot of circumstance, for want of a better word. Obviously you're Italian, you moved to the States, you've made that adjustment. You're a woman in a powerful leadership position. You've gone through your own personal dynamic. How have you found your own sense of self in amongst all of that? Because there's a lot of different external forces working pretty hard against you, over the course of your career.
Lina Polimeni:
That's such a good question. How I found my sense of self. You know, I have a tattoo to remind me just of that. (Laughs) It's interesting. I lost my sense of self, for a good chunk of time. I think there’s your most profound ego, like, your most profound self… you know, my, again, my father used to make me read Ralph Waldo Emerson's self-reliance essays when I was really young. And he taught me to listen to the genius. And he says, you know, when your genius is quiet, it's most likely saying no. So unless you feel your genius talking to you, it's most likely saying no. And many advices from people, you, especially your parents, you lose track of them as you go through life.
But I did very much lose myself. Not as much as work. I think work because I was losing myself so much through my personal life. Then work became the place, especially earlier in my career where I had so much clarity of what I felt I wanted to do, and what I wanted to deliver. And then fast forward to, yeah, maybe right before my divorce. I think that was also part of the discovery, to just, you know, that I had completely lost myself.
So I do have this tattoo that reminds me just of that, that says ‘Tu’, which means “you” in Italian, and has a compass underneath it, because my father was also a man of the sea. And he always said he could only, as a parent, be a harbor to me. He had to send me to sea, and then I had to know that the harbor was there if I needed to.
And when I graduated from the university to go to the US, he gave me a compass, like, a sea compass, to always remind me where my north is. And so, I now have a compass with saying “Tu”, “You” on top of it, to remind me that my north is me. Nothing else matters really. And me being true to myself is the single decision that I have to continue to make, and everything else will fall into place.
So I did lose myself, you know, I would be lying if I sat here and said, I found the recipe not to. I think I'm lucky that I was honest enough to say, this is not, this is not right for me, and this is not serving me. And I was honest enough to say, I deserve to be myself.
Charles:
How often do you look at that tattoo?
Lina Polimeni:
Very often. I do, very often. I do. I haven't gotten tired of it yet. Very often.
Charles:
Yeah. I think having that reference point, having that visible visual reference point, is such a powerful asset in the complexity of the lives that we lead. Within the context of all of that then, how do you now define success?
Lina Polimeni:
For me, professionally, success is easy, it’s improving health for people. And I do that through powerful creative. I do that through the power of storytelling and through the power of emotions. So, you know, job-wise and professionally it’s very easy for me. And personally, I think honestly, success for me will be a life fully lived and lived honestly, meaning, honest to myself, truly lived honest to myself.
Charles:
That's an incredibly high bar, right? It's a really high bar. How do you know when you're being honest with yourself?
Lina Polimeni:
It's because, when your genius is talking, when the genius is quiet, you say, no.
Charles:
So you've really mapped this, and I mean, that's what it feels like to me. You've really mapped who you want to be, and where you are in that journey, and created guardrails and guidelines for yourself to actually reinforce that on a day-to-day basis.
Lina Polimeni:
I think I've seen it in those dreams that I was telling you, the type of woman I wanted to be. And I couldn't really define, that's not defined by a work or not. And I think, after this crisis and therapy, I've mapped out… Yes, I have mapped out criteria for me, not as much as criteria for myself in terms of who I will be or will not be, but criteria for myself in terms of what I will allow myself versus not, and what I will allow others to interject. And I try really, really hard to transmit that to my daughters, too, that they are the most important things of their life. It's not about what I want them to do in life or… and so I have created a map for me of continuous improvement, yes, but also joy. That's my math, really, is making sure that I am true to myself, true to my standards or boundaries or interactions that I want to have, and that I continue to push myself in the direction of joy, love, and empathy, really.
Charles:
Obviously, you listen to yourself a lot, and with real insight and with real information. Where else do you get feedback from? Who else do you turn to, to give you honest feedback?
Lina Polimeni:
Only people that I admire and trust, so I'm very careful with that, too. I would say on the job, there is a handful of people that, not only I admire, but I am inspired by. They could be, you know, some of them are within this company, some of them are completely outside of this company. I look up to them, I feel inspired after I talk to them. So, I will listen to their feedback. Sometimes in my personal life, I proactively seek feedback on a side quest that I have, or I may have a project outside of life. And so, you know, just recently I purposely signed up to a competition that is probably a little bit out of my league, but I want that feedback from the judges first, you know?
And so I will practically seek feedback that way. I always say therapy is the, you know, really truly just sitting an hour with yourself. And that is also a way to get feedback. Because you talk to yourself a lot, but in therapy, you're actually sitting with yourself to some degree. And so you feel, you hear your own feedback, or you hear yourself talking. And, yeah, there's a, you know, a handful of people that I really look up to that I will ask for feedback or I really trust. And those are usually the people that also will proactively reach out and say, hey, you're messing up. Or, this is not like you, you know? And those are the people that I tend to listen to.
Charles:
You said you have daughters, right?
Lina Polimeni:
Daughters, yes. Three.
Charles:
What kind of framework are you trying to give them as they navigate this incredibly complicated world that we live in?
Lina Polimeni:
I would say, I have been a different mother before and after divorce. I would argue, a much better mother after divorce. Before divorce, I was in protective mode for them. And afterwards, the framework that I really, really strive to give them is the two framework, is that, they are the only people that matter, that they do need to do as best as they possibly can, but for themselves. And that I… hopefully, I'm not over indexing too much on the other side, but that, you know, expectations or preconceived notions or anxiety that they feel put at them because they have to achieve certain bars, are manmade and they don't have to. The other thing that I'm really big of, and trying to transmit to them, is that they always have an exit. Always, always. You're never committed to anything.
And I try to explain this to them from when they were, you know, sleepovers. If you feel like you're just not feeling it, you don't have to prove to me just because it took, you know, a week to convince me to be here. (Laughs) You can be out. And whatever it is, I try to explain to them, even, you know, my eldest is going to university, you can try, as long as you get a degree, you know, this is the years for you to explore. This is the years for you to figure out what you like, and what you don't like, and try to push them to do that. And which is unsurprisingly sometimes the opposite of what I had experienced at their age. But the framework I'm trying to give them is, it's really about you pleasing you and you doing what grows you. And you have the, not carte blanche, but at least the liberty, to make mistakes. You can change. Nobody dies. As long as nobody dies, you can make mistake.
Charles:
That seems like a really powerful set of foundations to give them. And I'm conscious of the fact, for any number of reasons, imposter syndrome has become a topic, certainly on the podcast over the last few weeks, and beyond that, as well. Have you experienced imposter syndrome?
Lina Polimeni:
Very much, very much so, very much. From, I mean, you know, you being told from the very beginning, you're too much X, Y, and that already sets you up for imposter syndrome. And then, me moving to the United States, everything that I thought was good about my upbringing, anything that I thought was good about my… everything that was typically praised as part of my personality in Italy became a problem in the US. And then it became a problem specifically in corporate America, which, you know, was up to me to navigate. I would say, I'm grateful for the fact that I never grew resentment towards that. Meaning for me, it was very much, you move from one system to another system, so you need to figure out the system. But imposter syndrome, A, was very present for me. I mean, just, even from the language. You know, when I first started working in the United States, an accent wasn't allowable, you know, and I still have one. Now it's not even a topic of conversation. Back then, it wasn't allowable.
So, very much felt I should dress a certain way, behave a certain way. And what helped me through that has been, and I'm very grateful to be able to have been part of that work. We have done a lot of work at Lilly to really foundationally understand women, and women in leadership. And as part of that journey, one of the key moments of truth was imposter syndrome. So being able to realize, oh, this is not just me. First of all, this is a thing, it's not just me feeling inadequate, has helped me navigate through that. And, you know, I think the other thing for me was very important is, even with big imposter syndrome, in every situation, whatever happened, I always stuck to this goal or to this vision that I have. And so as long as I achieved it, to me, it was like a bump or like an uncomfortable way to get there. But the achievement of the goals that I set for myself kind of was a positive reinforcement for me to keep going. But yes, absolutely, absolutely. I felt it.
Charles:
You still feel it today?
Lina Polimeni:
I think I see it today. Like, I can see it happening more of externally, it's almost like an external experience. I see that this is where it's supposed to happen now, and I don't feel it anymore because, I don't want to say I don't care, but I have developed, like you were mentioning, a different sense of self. And so I'm able to look at it in the face and say, we're not going down that path, that's, we're just not doing it.
Charles:
So, you make a choice, in fact.
Lina Polimeni:
Yeah. Because the system has changed only so much. You know, so the… change only so much. So I think, you know, to your reference, with women being in powerful leadership position, a woman, and you've seen this in the recent Olympics, I think a woman achieving big things in different ways is problematic still. And it's not anything bad to say about the system in and of itself, but it's part of how the system is set up. And so if you emerge in a way that is not consistent with a typical way of emerging, it becomes problematic. And so, it's not that it's any less comfortable, but it's, it is, it exists. It still very much exists. And I think right now, for me, the thing that's probably also easier or just more comforting, is the fact that I'm able to prevent some of that for my team and for women on my team.
Charles:
It's an extraordinary moment, isn't it? Because… I run the risk of sounding like a white privileged male. But I have always wanted to live in a world that was run by women. I've always felt that the world would be a kinder, more empathetic, more productive, more caring place. Hopefully we're going to get a chance to experience more of that come November. But to live in a time when the rights of women are so directly under attack, things that we thought had long since been established, clearly no longer are. The stuff that's come out even in the press in the last few days about the fact that, you know, certain members of the far right view women purely as essentially machines to produce babies from. That seems to be their view, that that's the only role that women have. How do we collectively, because I'm certain this is not simply a women's issue, right? Women's rights is a human issue. And I think there are many, many men, many of us, who would not, who do not want to live in a world in which women are not seen equally and treated equally, and do not feel equal in every way. How do we join together more effectively to deal with, not just this moment, but to get to a point where we're not having this conversation anymore, because we do have genuine equality? How do we work together more effectively to achieve that?
Lina Polimeni:
I think reminding ourselves that equality and, you know, equality and equity are both important concepts. And so, when you have a group of people, women in this example that, you know, perhaps don't have the same starting point, then having men, not just collaborating and helping, but just pushing to that starting point. Like, if you know we are not starting from the same place, then it's going to take more for me to make up that space. And so having men help that, I think is going to be the first piece. I agree with you that this is a matter of fundamental human rights. It's not even a gender issue. And so to me, that is a bigger conversation that certainly starts with voting, and voting, you know, in a place where that is consistent with whatever your beliefs are around that. I think for the work that I do, and the impact that I can have, being able to work across from women and men, and making sure that men understand this just as much as women do, and that women are empowered to speak up for this.
Because even just calling out some inequities in the day-to-day life is not always as automatic as you would think from women. Because you've learned how to navigate through a system that already has those inequities built in. So I think calling them out is the first, is the first issue. And then, continue to keep a very watchful eye towards anything that impacts very fundamental human rights.
Charles:
You mentioned that Lilly's done a lot of work around imposter syndrome. What have you learned that's helpful for the rest of us to know?
Lina Polimeni:
We've done a lot of work for imposter syndrome and being one of the moments of truth, and just the women's journey across the organization. So that was specifically across the career journey of women. One of the biggest learnings that I think is helpful, and I find myself reminding to other women as they come to me and say, you know, how do I find a mentor? Can you help me find a mentor? Can you mentor me? Is that, women are over-mentored and under-sponsored. And when it comes to career advancement, we have a ton of mentors. And everybody, because everybody wants to tell you what to do. You have a lot of people telling you, here's what you should do. And a lot of great mentors and people that generally care. But when it comes to career advancement, we have multiple moments of truth, imposter syndrome being one of them.
A sponsor is who makes the difference in your career. So, I think one of the things that if I could transmit to anybody in any career setting, is to really be careful to understand the difference between a mentor and a sponsor. A mentor is somebody that will help you, a mentor is somebody you can have an open conversation too. You can ask, what do I do in my job? How do I do this better? How do I show up differently? And get advice and coaching from.
A sponsor, you may not even have, actually, a direct relationship with. A sponsor is that person that will push your name when the discussion is happening, they will propose your name when there is an opportunity, and they will push your career forward. Sometimes you have sponsor you don't necessarily interact with, but they have senior work and they become sponsors of you.
A sponsor is a person that, when a job open comes up, will pick up the phone and say, “You don't know this person, you don't know Lina, but you have to hire her and I'll vouch for her. Just trust me.” That's a sponsor. Men have those. Men know how to identify them, men know how to have those conversations. We get mentors. And so, we tend to be over-mentored and under-sponsored. So like one of the key learnings was, let's be intentional, both men and women, on sponsoring women. And again, you saw some great example during the Olympics. I mean, that was a perfect example. Even Flavor Flav wanted to physically sponsor, financially, the women's team. That's the difference. And I'm sure those women had plenty of mentors, plenty of people cheering for them, but who made the difference was somebody putting money on the line and saying, I'm going to sponsor this whether I know you guys or not. So that's been a key learning.
Charles:
So part of this is helping women to understand that they should look for sponsors. That they need sponsors, that they're entitled to sponsors.
Lina Polimeni:
And that there's nothing wrong in having one. You don't have to earn it. Your work is earning the sponsor. And, you don't have to necessarily prove yourself. Yes, you should have one.
Charles:
There's a narrative, which I'm sure you've heard, that women tend to hang back in key moments. That when presented with a job opening, men will leap in, regardless of whether they're ready or not. Women will look to make sure they're completely, a hundred percent certified and qualified, in order to be able to take on that role. Do you see that around you, still?
Lina Polimeni:
I do, I do. I've coached myself not to do that, but I do, I do. I see it in people that report to me when they're looking for new jobs. And that's why, again, the role of a leader is not necessarily to be the same to everyone all the time. I will push a woman that's full of talent, but not sure herself, when I know she can succeed in another role. And I will do the same with a man if I feel the same. But if I feel a man is overextending, and know that he may not, or a woman, for that matter, I may not succeed in the role, I will have that conversation, too.
I saw it in my daughter applying for high school jobs, saying, no, I can't apply for this one. And it's, like, a car wash job. I'm like, I'm pretty sure you can do it. You can figure out how to, you know, upsell somebody at the car wash if you want to. So I do. I see it a lot. I still do.
I also will say, I don't know that I see also the opposite. Meaning, when women do take the opportunity and do take the jump, even if they're not completely checking all the boxes, I don't know that I necessarily always see organizations or men or situations in general, where they're like, well, we'll, you know… they don't check for every single box to be checked. So I do think that is also a different conversation that happens when you're a woman instead of a man.
Charles:
The other side of the coin is that there is all kinds of evidence and data to show that young men in particular have never been more disconnected from society. They're lonelier, they feel less successful. They're struggling emotionally, mentally. How do businesses and organizations and leaders within the context of that recognize that? Because it's easy to get caught up on one side of this conversation, for all the reasons we've talked about. We need to make sure that we're balancing this, right? That we are looking across the universe of people who bring talent and capability and passion to the workplace, but who need different things. And it's easy, I think, to become too prescriptive. How do we make sure that we are dealing with the issues that men today face, as well as the issues that women today face?
Lina Polimeni:
Yeah. I think, first and foremost is, recognize and understanding generations, which is going to make me sound older. But, like, you know, Gen Z that's about to really get into the workplace. I always joke, Gen Z is going to save the world. This is a generation that thrives on emotions and thrives on purpose. And so, that goes across men and women. So if you are not, as a leader, if you are not able to adapt to having a different conversation, and understand that you have to help people discover their purpose within work now, so that they can be satisfied with work and thrive, then you're going to be ill-prepared to lead men or women, I think. And so I think the first part is connecting differently. And again, it goes back to our conversation. It takes interrogating yourself, also, as a leader and understanding, do I have the capacity to feel this and to understand this and to offer a space, in the sense.
So I really think that is the first and foremost. I agree with you that we have to… I also think, you know, we haven't quite even discovered the impact that COVID has had on young men and on young women. I think we're feeling that it did, but we don't really quite know the impact that it truly did, both in terms of mental health and emotions. And so, that will have an impact in ambition and career and what is important in people’s lives. So as a leader, you have to be able to flex and understand that, and remove yourself from that equation, and being able to propel people forward instead of, you know, prescribe ways to operate. So I do think the first place is empathy, and understanding that you're going to have to connect with this new generation a little bit differently.
Charles:
Yeah, I think the COVID point is so well made. I have long believed that we are dealing with mass undiagnosed PTSD. And people like you and I were able to live through COVID in different ways than people in the late teens, early twenties were. But you see it in so many ways manifesting itself, and I think at least part of the political unrest we feel around the world is some version of that, as well, being expressed out.
I'd like to talk about speed within a workplace that depends on unlocking innovation and creative thinking for your success. And obviously, Lily has built all around that. I was on your website and I was struck by one of the lines about developing therapies and progress against Alzheimer's. And the line was, “Innovation takes decades of persistence, but we're making progress in Alzheimer's disease.” Obviously business today moves faster than ever. Creativity is often as aligned or associated with speed and sort of fluidity. How do you manage a business that depends on all of that, but also needs to recognize and work within the construct, that innovation can take decades? How do you create an environment that is supportive of patience in a time when everybody wants to move faster than ever?
Lina Polimeni:
I think if you were to sit in this environment, you probably wouldn't feel that we support patience (laughs), meaning we want things fast. There is a big sense of urgency within the company, and the sense of urgency, I would say the answer to whether it's patience, sense of urgency of everything that we do, is the patient. One of the insight that we have, and even that created the initial campaign for Lily, is that anyone that we talked to when we were first starting to do this work, from the scientists in the labs, to the CEO, to the executive committee, to the last person that closes the manufacturing line, we all have a person in mind when we work. And it's a person, it's not just a patient. And so, that creates a sense of urgency. You will hear it in things that may sound even sometimes cliche, how we close an email, but everything, it's about, we need to get this to market, or we need to figure out a solution.
And also, from a business perspective, our business is, if you look at our pipeline, is merely driven by patient need. So that's the reason why you will find us in places like Alzheimer's, where the patient need is huge, because there is no solution. And the reason why we'll spend 30 years and $7 billion in failing very publicly, but continuing to stay there, because there's a patient need. But at the same time, you will find us in the smallest patient population of gastric cancers, that have a very tiny population, that you would argue from a business perspective is not the same. But there's no solution, and that's where the patient need is. And so I think the answer to, how do you maintain the patience and the urgency, is very much in the patient centricity that I, in my experience, really, really differentiates this company from others. Because it's not just something we say, it’s truly part of the ethos, it's truly part, part of how we operate.
It's the one thing we agree on is the patient. You know, we fight internally. So one thing we agree on is that we want help for patients and for people, and I think Alzheimer's is, you know, an example of, how do you keep patients while you have urgency of people needing something? And the way we did it is that when we failed, we said, we're going to figure this out. It doesn't matter how long it takes. And so that wasn't necessarily always the best, I'm sure, financial decision, but it was needed. And that's why, 30 years later, we have at least the first answer that's in market for patients.
Charles:
So the fact that it's personal for all of you working there, does that create the opportunity to have more robust conversation, but more robust arguments, for want of a better description? I mean, I’m, there are so many businesses for whom that kind of interpersonal tension is destructive. But in a company where the mission is personal, I think that that's not necessarily true. That you're able, in many cases, to have much more contextual, deeper, conversations, debates, and yet come out of the end of that process with a resolution and also with a respect for each other. Is that a fair assessment that, because it's personal, you can get into this in a deeper, more meaningful way?
Lina Polimeni:
I think so. I think we have very honest conversation. I think we have difficult conversation. There's a good balance of, this is a Midwestern company, so there's definitely Midwestern nice to some degree. But at the same time, you know, you say it’s personal, we can have deeper conversation. To me, it's like, that is the one thing we will never fight about, is, we know that it's about patients. And so we know that even when we do disagree, even in my world it could be creative and, you know, legal reviews, and reviews of materials prior to going to the market. But what we're reviewing, of course, we want to make sure that also people are informed, you know. And when you have a product campaign, for example. Even when you disagree on certain things, it's like, well, I do want people to know that what happens when they take this medicine. I do want them to know side effects, because you want your mom to know.
And so that creates, it is personal and it's human. And so it creates, I think, a common understanding to where none of us feel, I personally think, none of us feel like we are here to attack or damage other people's job. We're here to get out truly the best possible product, for patients. And I also feel, I'm in the commercial side of the organization and have been all of my career, and we all have a very deep-seated respect and admiration for our scientists that are in the labs and that are discovering this medicine. So, we feel like we are the holder of the insights, and we understand what people’s hopes and fears are when it comes to health. And so my job is to make sure that the whole organization understands what this does to people, the “so what” of the medicine. But we have, we all have such an admiration for the scientists and the people that discover the medicine.
Charles:
This is such a big job that you have, and an influential one. What's it really like having a job like that? Most of us are not going to have that kind of job. What's it really like?
Lina Polimeni:
It's incredibly inspiring for me. This has been, you know, the worth of my career. I have incredible partners, on the creative side of Wieden and Kennedy that just think, I just think personally, they even elevate this mission creatively even moreso. To me, this feels like full of purpose and just inspiring. Like, I am inspired every day. I haven't yet felt like, you know, this doesn't feel like a nine to five, but it doesn't feel like something that's all-consuming in a negative way. It's truly fueling. And so, we'll come out of reviews of thinking together, of what's our next way of communicating people's hopes and fears around this particular disease, and, creative reviews, and I will come out so energized, like I want to go get right back on the call and rediscuss it together, because the work is so fulfilling.
So I think it feels like a true leadership call within an organization, because it's a big move to rally a whole company around who we are as a brand. But it feels, it's really, really fulfilling. And it's, I would say also, for me, in 20 years of career and 20 years at Lilly, this is especially, working Wieden and Kennedy, this has been the most involved, I have been in the totality of the creative process. I mean, this is a complete different team where, you know, usually client side, you just get, here's your options. Which one do you like better? We like this one. This is the agency recco. This is a team that believes in this brand just as much as I do. And we are all with our sleeves rolled up into the messiness of the creative development together. And it's been unbelievable to me, the highlight of my career.
Charles:
If you could go back over those 20 years and talk to yourself as you were then, what would you want that version of yourself to know that you know now?
Lina Polimeni:
Don't marry him. (Laughs)
Charles:
Although you wouldn't have your daughters, right?
Lina Polimeni:
That's true. That's true. But okay, let me refocus. What I would tell myself at the… you know, what, if I could tell one thing… it’s going sound arrogant, but one thing I could tell myself at the very beginning is, you are right. Just trust that you are right. Trust it. Because my personality is not to do anything that's, you know, evil to people. And so just believing in the fact that my vision, that dream is right, and it has proven, because if I'm talking to her now, seeing everything that happened, every single point of my career, I mean, it was successful. So, I would whisper to her, you are right, and you have everything you need.
Charles:
And last question for you. As you look at the future, what are you hopeful for?
Lina Polimeni:
So in the world, I am hopeful. I'm hoping, which is different than being hopeful. I am hoping for peace in the world. For work, as I look in the future I am hopeful to continue to… I want Lilly to be a brand that people love and trust. Full stop. Not a pharmaceutical brand, not… a brand that people love and trust. And that's, I see that, I see that possible. I know I have the right people working on this and the right passion. And so, that's what I'm hopeful for. I'm hopeful for the rest of my work to be around showing and making people feel what we feel here internally, which is, the passion that we have to put health first again, for people, really.
Charles:
Thank you for coming on the show. Your humanity is infectious. Your strategy is everywhere and self-evident. And I think your journey is extraordinary. Thank you very, very much for sharing so openly today, Lina.
Lina Polimeni:
Thank you so much, Charles. It was, really was a pleasure. I feel like I can cancel my next therapy appointment because we already… I got a full hour with you. So… (Laughs)
Charles:
Don't, don't do that.
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Frances Harlow is the show’s Executive Producer. Josh Suhy is our Editor. Sarah Pardoe is the show’s Producer.
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