Heather Freeland of Adobe
Is that Good?
"FEARLESS CREATIVE LEADERSHIP" PODCAST - TRANSCRIPT
Episode 269: Heather Freeland
Here’s a question. Is that good?
I’m Charles Day. I believe leadership offers us the greatest opportunity of our lives, to make a difference. I’m asked to help leaders discover what they’re capable of, and then to maximize their impact. Welcome to the intersection of strategy and humanity.
This episode’s conversation is with Heather Freeland. She’s the Chief Brand Officer at Adobe, a business that, as Heather describes, is undergoing significant change to prepare itself for the future to come, and the one that is already here.
In a company long known for providing powerful tools to creative people, the advent of Generative AI is both a threat and an opportunity. How human beings maintain our relevance sits at the very heart of that tension.
“One of the conversations we've been having a lot lately is around the concept of taste. So, taste is very hard to train, is very hard to quantify. And, as we look to do more experimentation in our own marketing around generating images with Generative AI, one of the things that comes back is, but is that good? And doesn't mean that just because you can do it, that it's good.”
Is that good?
In the quest to become leaders that make a difference, there are many powerful questions to ask ourselves.
What do I want to find out about myself?
What is success?
Both of these are intensely personal, and can be answered, albeit with some serious and honest reflection, from within.
But, “Is that good?” usually stretches us out into the world. We are inclined to ask, through what lens? Against what criteria? Measured by what result? Based on whose experience?
But at the end of that journey of data collection, consultation, and analysis, the answer to, “Is that good?” is still waiting for someone to decide.
Michelangelo, when asked how he had created such perfection from a piece of rock said, “I simply removed everything that wasn’t the David.”
If human beings are to create a dividing line that AI can not cross, the question, “Is that good?” may be the beating heart on which that barrier depends.
“Is that good?” is heavy lifting. It requires clarity and confidence.
Muscles we should probably start building today.
Here’s Heather Freeland.
Charles:
Heather, welcome to Fearless. Thank you so much for coming on the show.
Heather Freeland:
Thank you for having me. Excited to be here.
Charles:
When did creativity first show up in your life? When are you first conscious of creativity being a force in the world?
Heather Freeland:
I mean, I have to say as a child. I mean, for me it was always present from the time I did watercolors on the kitchen table with my grandmother. And then in high school, I actually worked as a graphic designer, and I, at the time, that was sitting at a drafting table, sending things out to get type set. And while I was in that role, had to take the desk, horizontal, to be able to put a computer on it, and a new desktop publishing for the first time. And that was a real moment, meaning in terms of my understanding of the evolution of creativity and the capabilities and what it can do to tell a bigger story, and it's been a part of my life and my career ever since.
Charles:
It's an interesting reference point actually, because you have to be a certain age, as you and I both are, to have lived through that moment where it moved from physical to digital. What was that like for you? What, how did that change your perception of what you were capable of?
Heather Freeland:
Yeah, I mean, it was super interesting because I remember, and you know, this is not too different from what we're experiencing today with the advent of Generative AI, but I remember being able to do things that had once taken days to do in an hour. You know, whether that was editing a line of copy, using an exactor knife on a board, or, you know, to then just simply correcting it on a screen, was pretty transformative, in terms of the pace that I could move and the things that were possible. And even the fidelity of what was possible, versus what I'd been able to do prior to that. And, you know, I think right now we're going through the same transformation, in terms of being able to do so much more. Being able to take what's in your head and put it on a screen or out into the world at a moment's notice. And it's really a pretty transformative moment, just as it was for me back then.
Charles:
I've really been struck, actually, as I've started using Generative AI that for the first time in my life, I'm not frustrated by the technology. I'm frustrated by my own lack of imagination in terms of what to tell it. Have you found that?
Heather Freeland:
Absolutely. I mean, it's so funny because I think for most of my life, I've always been frustrated that what I have in my brain I can't bring it to the world exactly as I saw it in my brain. And that is, has always been my constraint, and that's why I didn't become a professional designer. (Laughs) It's why I moved into marketing, to work with people who can do that. But I think for me, it is now that I feel like any shackles I had before are off. And it is about being able to think bigger. And I think that's the exciting moment that we're in right now, is I actually think we're on the verge of a renaissance in creativity, because we can think bigger, and our brains just need to catch up with that possibility now at this point.
Charles:
Yeah. And the limitations off, mostly self imposed, I think.
Heather Freeland:
Yeah. We're used to being constrained in some way, and now we aren't in those same ways. So we need to think about what's possible.
Charles:
Yeah. I've been really struck by this, actually, because it reinforces the need to make sure you're constantly being stimulated by positive energy, positive ideas, positive possibilities, I guess, for want of a better word. And, perhaps when you take the restrictions away, you suddenly discover the limitations of your own capacity to imagine.
Heather Freeland:
Absolutely. Absolutely. But I think that's why one of the things that I think is so important for creativity is opening yourself up to new ways of thinking and new sources of information. And I think that's why human creativity will always lead the way. Because I think there are combinations of things that we as humans can uniquely put together, and ideas that we can uniquely generate, that are going to come from strange sources, or strange experiences that we've had in our life that we bring to bear in our ideas, and that are going to be impossible to recreate with technology.
Charles:
You've got a, obviously, hugely demanding job with a lot of expectations placed on you, very public, lots of stakeholders to try and satisfy and keep aligned. Within the context of all of that, how do you find time to make sure that you are keeping as open to new possibilities? How do you keep your imagination active?
Heather Freeland:
Oh, yeah. I mean, I think one of the most important things I find is white space. I remember reading an article once in The New Yorker about how the art of writing and processing ideas is actually much more fertile when you walk. And that there is something that happens physiologically that helps your brain process more and put together ideas when you're walking. And so I actually found, and started during the pandemic, when we were all doing anything to get out of the house, doing more walking, because it enabled me to process things that I was… You know, you're in corporate America or wherever, and you're being bombarded with ideas and new pieces of information all day long. And you need that downtime, and that space to walk and process them.
So I think one, is just giving anyone the space to process. And then two, finding new sources of information and inspiration. I mean, I am constantly kind of reading, taking in what other brands are doing, just looking at artists and going, I just went to Mercer Labs in New York, which is this kind of magical intersection of creative and technology, and where you are really immersed in a part of the art that you're experiencing. And, you know, I find putting myself in places and positions and moments to receive all sorts of different types of inspiration is the key. But then having the moment to process them and let your brain really soak in them.
Charles:
Do you schedule that formally? Because I'm so conscious of how many leaders have their lives taken over by their calendars and their well-intentioned assistants just filling up the day, right?
Heather Freeland:
Exactly.
Charles:
From dawn to dusk with stuff. How do you make sure that you have time for that?
Heather Freeland:
Yeah, I mean, I'd say a couple things. One, I do try and kind of create blocks in my day. This will sound very odd, but my commute is sometimes that white space for me, either for listening to a podcast that can bring me more inspiration, or just having downtime to kind of zone out. I'm an introvert at heart, so that means, you know, I recharge by kind of being alone and in my own space. And so I do try and carve out moments during the day, wherever and however I can get them, to do that. Which with a eight and 10-year-old becomes a little more difficult.
Charles:
Wow. Yeah. That's a lot. I mean, do you find taking care of yourself is a challenge?
Heather Freeland:
Yes, I do. And I'm, it is a constant journey. It's a great question, and I'm sure so many people struggle with this, with all the demands of work and family, and life. But it is critical sometimes to just say, no, I need to put my oxygen mask on first and take care of myself at critical moments. I mean, I just got back from a week on Vancouver Island and, really, you have no choice to be cut off from technology because you don't have much access to it there. And, you know, take in the beauty of nature and those moments, you know, are just completely re-energizing and rejuvenating. And it's so important to carve out time for in your life.
Charles:
This is a strange question, but it strikes me at the moment. So, when you talk about taking a week, one of the things that I've really been conscious of, ever since I moved to America, which is more years ago than I’m prepared to admit. People take a week. If you go to Europe, they take two or three.
Heather Freeland:
I know.
Charles:
It's a real, it's a real difference. Are you conscious of that? Are you conscious that you're trying to squeeze a holiday in?
Heather Freeland:
Absolutely. I mean, one thing it does, oh, and then, and then you pay for it on the back end. Because you're catching up from that week, right?
Charles:
Somebody once described it to me as vacation tax, which I thought was the perfect description.
Heather Freeland:
Yes, it's perfect. Perfect. Yes. And I do think, I think there is a magic of the two week vacation that in the US we don't fully appreciate. Because by the time you fully decompress from day-to-day life, you're halfway through your vacation, and then you start the dread of returning to real life. So you never have that true time to relax and disconnect. But I do think… you know, someone actually once told me on a two week vacation, the best part about it is you don't have to read any emails from the first week because, when you return, because either they've resolved themself already, or if someone really needs something, they'll ping you again.
Charles:
It's so true.
Heather Freeland:
Yeah.
Charles:
We spend so much of our time in crisis management, don't we? Then you realize later that about 80% of that was probably actually worth very little of our energy.
Heather Freeland:
Exactly. Exactly. So I do, I think that there is a gift in the two week vacation for sure. I took time off in between my last job at Lyft and this job, and I took a month, and it was the longest I had taken off in virtually most of my career. And it was heaven, because I had time to both travel. I went to a week long retreat to really focus on myself. I spent time immersing myself in the day-to-day lives and my kids in a way I can't when I'm working. And it was… that month was just magical for me.
Charles:
It's such an interesting reference, I think, because… I hadn't thought about this before we started this conversation, but I think this, we can talk about AI and I'd like to. But one of the things that so many people keep saying is that we're going to have more time because it's going to do so many of the things that we used to have to do. And I'm wondering whether, or wondering how, people will choose to use that time. Whether it will be in the amplification of what they already do now and expanding that, or whether it will actually be in taking better care of themselves, to actually both refresh, restore, and also stimulate their imagination. What do you think we're likely to do?
Heather Freeland:
I mean, I think there's probably a difference in how people choose to use that time culturally, right? Like, I think you referenced it, in the US there's a very different mindset around vacation, around professional achievement. I have friends who are European and they kind of scoff when I get an email on, a work email on the weekend and all of that when that's just, you know, normal, commonplace business here. And so I think there will be a lot of factors that determine that. My sincere hope is it goes both ways. I think that we give ourselves more time, more grace, more, you know, time to focus on relationships and being human. But then we can also accomplish that much more in that time, too.
Charles:
How do you reconcile that or balance that from a leadership standpoint? Because I think, it's pretty clear you and I philosophically have sort of a very, you know, come from a same similar perspective. Again, you're dealing with a really, I don't have to keep telling you this, you know better than I do, but I mean, the demands that are placed on somebody with a job like yours are immense. How do you navigate the philosophy that you've just espoused and the context of the demands of a job like that? Are you conscious of leadership as an opportunity to try to create different mindsets and possibilities for the people around you?
Heather Freeland:
Absolutely. I mean, it's interesting. There's a few things that, you know, as you've referenced, the advent of Generative AI, it's been an intense, you know, last year plus at Adobe, because the rate with which we're releasing products has grown exponentially. And the excitement and opportunity has grown exponentially, as well. But I think that intensity does trickle down back to our team members. And, you know, there's a few things that we've been trying to do to make sure we're helping people focus on finding that space. We just, on my team, instituted “No Work” blocks on Monday mornings and Friday afternoons, just so people can ease into the week, really kind of give themselves time and space. We are trying to do more things that bring outside inspiration in.
We had a filmmaker join us last week to preview one of his films, and then we could talk to him about what inspired him. So I think there's a lot of things I'm doing to make sure that we give people that time and space, and I've also found ways throughout my career to do that, whether that's, you know, having hard lines on not reaching out to people on PTO, or not engaging, you know, I schedule emails to go out at nine the next morning, even if I'm working on them the night before. Things like that, to make sure that you're making sure people know that it's okay to focus on themselves and their families and their lives. And I think that's really important from a leadership perspective.
Charles:
You've talked publicly about wanting to make creativity accessible for all. Why creativity, why that focus?
Heather Freeland:
I mean, there's… creativity… I mean, first of all, when I took this job, I couldn't have thought of a better brand platform than creativity. Because there is so much goodness that comes from that. And, when I say goodness, that's not just goodness for business and for marketing, that's goodness in the world, right? I think about it on three different dimensions. Like, there's the dimension of storytelling and how you can use creativity to bring an idea to life, to tell a story, to convey how you're thinking or feeling or what have you. But then it's what then happens with it that's so important, which is that can open people up to new perspectives, to new ideas, to new ways of thinking, new things they've never thought about before.
And then that can lead to new views of the world. Like, that can lead to new, you know, problem solving in the world, or a deeper understanding of a community you didn't know anything about and may have resisted before, but suddenly are open to. And so I think there's this inherent goodness that comes from creativity in, out in humanity. I know that that probably sounds a little overly grand, but I do believe so much goodness can come from creativity. I mean, and if you look at it from a marketing perspective, then extract it to the larger world. From a marketing perspective, you know, there are all sorts of studies that show that it's the creative that matters in terms of the effectiveness of an advertisement or what have you. More than anything, being able to really be memorable and resonate and be relevant. But then take that into the real world, and just as it can be effective in terms of selling a product or marketing a brand, it can be just as effective in terms of changing minds and really adding to people's lives and their enjoyment, their understanding of one another. And so why wouldn't we want creativity for all, right?
Charles:
Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more. I suspect there are not very many right wing minded people who listen to this podcast, so I've tried pretty hard to not be overtly political. but I was struck last week actually, when Biden stepped down, how fast the world changed. And it feels to me as I look back at it more and more and more, that that was in a way, an intensely creative act that he actually undertook. And the creativity that it has unlocked is breathtaking, actually. To watch people come together, to be given hope, to come up with new ways of thinking. I mean, we've broken Zoom any number of times in the last six days. Right? I mean, it's extraordinary, actually, when you unleash the possibility in the power of original thought into the human race, perhaps not for everybody, but for an enormously large number of people, it has changed their perspective and their mood.
Heather Freeland:
Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, I think it's, I mean, it was a selfless act, for sure, but I think what it unlocked for people was these new ways of thinking about the future. And for a lot of people, hope, for a lot of people, you know, a different feeling, I'm sure. But I think it gave a lot of us an opportunity to imagine new futures. And I think that is an incredibly creative act, as you said.
Charles:
Yeah. And what we could do with that energy, if we want, if we chose to. Yeah, really remarkable. I had never framed it through this lens, but I think, thinking about it now for a second, it is an intensely creative act because I think it's the only time in American history that somebody who had captured the nomination of his party has decided not to run.
Heather Freeland:
Yes, exactly. It was a huge gesture. I was in Canada when I heard the news, and there was a bit of irony, in that moment. But I think it was also interesting to see the world's reaction to it, as well. So it was very, very important moment for our country.
Charles:
Yeah. You could feel it, couldn't you? You really could. Did you always want to lead? What made you get into leadership?
Heather Freeland:
Hmm. You know, it's funny, my parents tell the story that when I was in preschool, the preschool teacher said that I liked to organize meetings in the classroom. So I think, I think there was something in me all along. That came from a father who worked at home, which was kind of unusual in the early seventies. And I saw him holding meetings and so I learned from him. But I think, I always did. And it was funny, you know, I was, in high school, I was involved in drama, and I was not the actress. I didn't have the talent for it. But I was the stage manager, the director, the set designer, or what have you. And I loved kind of being able to orchestrate things and be able to pull lots of different perspectives and moving pieces together into one story there. And so I think that just has translated through my career in terms of being able to bring lots of ideas and work into the world.
Charles:
Have you always sought out those leadership positions?
Heather Freeland:
Yeah, I mean, it's funny. I think I have, but I haven't always to the extent I probably should have if I'm being honest. You know, in some cases I've been promoted into them, and without consciously seeking them out. But I do think, I have… I've always seen my career as kind of a collection of building blocks, in different ways. So I was never afraid to kind of take a lateral move or kind of a bit of a hard turn in my career, to gain a new skill in a new area that I wanted to, or even a step back in some cases. But I think it's always ultimately enabled, greater leadership in the end, because I have a deeper understanding of a wider range of areas and skills and ways of thinking.
Charles:
And in those times when you felt yourself maybe holding back, why have you done that?
Heather Freeland:
You know, I think it's more, you know, now we'll get into psychoanalysis, but… (Laughs) But I think it's, you know, I think sometimes we don't give ourselves enough credit for what we're capable of. And I think sometimes there's the kind of work that's been done around men and women sometimes, that men will apply for the job that they're not quite qualified for, and women will wait till they feel fully qualified for that job to even apply. And I think that that has always resonated with me. I've always wanted to feel a hundred percent confident that I can do something before I throw my hat into the ring. And I don't know that that's a male or female thing necessarily, but I do feel that way of thinking, very deeply. I just want to be a success in what I'm able to to do, and want to feel confident that I can achieve that.
Charles:
And is that cultural from your, sort of, from your experience? Is that upbringing? Where do you think that hesitancy or that need to feel like, I've got everything I need in order to take this on?
Heather Freeland:
You know, I think there's, I was, I don't know. I think growing up, I feel, I do feel like this is psychoanalysis. I'm going back to my childhood a lot in this conversation. I mean, I was always younger in my class. I was about a year and a half, younger than all of my classmates, in some cases even more. I, you know, had just turned 17 when I graduated from high school. And I felt like I always had to prove myself more, because of that. And I think I carried that with me a lot through life. It just gave me a little bit more of a need to prove that I belonged with everyone else around me, and feel confident that I could. And it gave me an extra drive though, too, at the same time, you know, to do so.
Charles:
Yeah, I mean, I've seen this, I'm sure we both have so many times, where incredibly successful accomplished women have had to overcome that sense of, I need to be more than I am today in order to justify that. And men charge in. Are you seeing that change as the younger generations emerge into the workforce, or do you still see that, the starkness of that separation between the genders?
Heather Freeland:
I mean, it's a great question. I do not feel like I am seeing it as much as I think I probably did, earlier in my career. And it's interesting, I feel like, you know, I just as equally have women coming to me advocating on their own behalf or stepping up and saying, “I'm worthy of a promotion or a new role.” And I have to say, I always commend them, because I don't know that I've always done that as effectively in my career. And I think no one is ever going to advocate for you in the way that you fully deserve. And so I think women these days, I am seeing do a much better job of being great self-advocates, but I think, you know, we can always continue.
Charles:
t's a challenging dynamic, isn't it? Because finding, I mean, there is no perfect balance. And I think you're right on balance. You would like people to come forward sooner rather than later, and have the energy and the passion that comes with that, to be able to guide and direct. But it is still, I think, a… there's still a sort of a deep seated, deep rooted cultural—
Heather Freeland:
Absolutely.
Charles:
—aspect to this.
Heather Freeland:
Yeah, I mean, an interesting example of that was when I was in my twenties, I was working for a PR and communications firm down in DC. And there was an opportunity to move to New York to open the new office for the firm. And I didn't throw my hat in the ring. I was like, oh, that's way too, you know, too big for me. I wouldn't do it. And they came to me and asked me to do it. And I, probably for one of the first times in my life, I said, you know what? I'm going to do it. I had to make a decision, and then in two weeks to move my whole life to a city where I knew no one. And it was the best decision, you know, one of the biggest and best decisions I've made in my life.
And I do think having moments like that, that both make you feel worthy, you know, that someone chose you for that, but that also push you out of your comfort zone into a world you hadn't imagined for yourself is really powerful. From a confidence perspective, from a growth perspective. And even from a, you know, to bring this full circle, from a creativity perspective, right? Opening yourself up to new… to worlds beyond the one you've always known, breeds so much creativity in terms of how you solve problems and view the world and what have you. And it was pretty transformative for me earlier in my life.
Charles:
Yeah, and I think creativity is an act of faith every time you undertake it. And that starts with overcoming the self-doubt that I think many of us have when it comes to expressing an original idea for the first time. How do you go about creating an environment? Because obviously Adobe is dependent upon all of that kind of energy and original thinking. You're an extraordinarily innovative business. How do you create an environment in which people are able to tap into that sort of trust based, fear-less, if not fearless, but fear-less environment where you can actually think, okay, I'm going to take a risk and say this or put this down on a piece of paper?
Heather Freeland:
Yeah, I mean, it is, it's interesting. We have a set of values for the company. And I think it breeds that into how we think everyday, into how we operate, into how we evaluate our employees along the way. And, you know, it's really interesting, one of the views that we have is, Create the Future. One of the values that we have is Create the Future. And so it's built into how are we thinking about what the world could look like. And it is up to us as employees and team members to ideate around that, to be builders, to be makers, to be open-minded to new ways of thinking. And so I love that that's at the center of our values. The other one that I think, you know, the other three values that I'll just reference, because I think they all blend into that are about being genuine and letting people be themselves.
Because if you're genuine, you're going to be open to new ideas, open to new ways of thinking, feel comfortable voicing what you think or feel or believe. We talk about owning the outcome. You are ultimately responsible for the outcome of your ideas. And then raising the bar. And if you're about constantly improving where we are and constantly improving, you know, what's possible, all of these things are kind of ingredients into that innovation and creativity. And so I think that's a brilliant way that I think Adobe as a company builds that into the way we show up every day.
Charles:
And how do you hold people to those, how do you empower those values? Because, you know, I'm sure we've both been around a lot of companies where the values have beautifully articulated, but don't go any further than being a statement on a website or on the wall. How do you bring those to life on a practical day-to-day basis?
Heather Freeland:
Yeah, I mean, they're actually built into our quarterly check-in process with employees. So you know, one of the things that, you know, everyone does a self-evaluation and they literally talk about, how are you demonstrating the values of the company? And then as a manager, I chime in on that, as well. And, you know, it becomes a powerful tool. And we don't have a formal ratings or anything. It's very much a more conversation-based performance culture. And I think what it does is it fosters very real dialogues about how people are delivering on their role, in a really powerful way. You know, I can have a meaningful conversation about, with a team member, about if something died on the vine, did they really own the outcome, for example?
Or did they raise the bar enough on where we've been? Or did they just keep things going in the status quo? And those become really meaningful conversations that I think transcend, like, the basics, performance metrics that you might normally see in a different company. So I think they've been really powerful tools for us. And we actually, you know, we even give out regular awards for our team on, like, who's really exemplifying these capabilities. We have an annual Founders Award, that was started by John and Chuck, our founders, years ago, where we recognize, you know, a small handful of people, I think about 15 each year, worldwide, for truly exemplifying these values. And we talk about in public settings why and how and what they did to do it, to really help give people a model to live by. And I think that becomes a really powerful way to help people be celebrated for, and to see what's possible when you demonstrate those values.
Charles:
Yeah, the companies that I've worked at and with, when it becomes personal to that extent, in the way that you've described, that's when they are the most meaningful and the most actionable, I think. And it's often, it's interesting to hear you talk about the founders. Because you don't think of Adobe as having had founders.
Heather Freeland:
Yeah. Because we've been around 40 years now.
Charles:
Right. But I think what every time founder influence still shows up in the culture of a business, then that's when you see the values being really meaningful. And you can feel when you walk in the door, there's something here that holds this together.
Heather Freeland:
Absolutely. And to your point, I mean, Adobe was founded more than 40 years ago, I think coming up on 42, and John Warnock, our founder, died last year. I had the opportunity to meet him, actually at our Founder's Award dinner last year. And hearing from him about the early days of the company, and what he and Chuck had intended to build, and to see that hold true to this day, is incredibly powerful. And to see the warmth and humanity that they thought about when they built the company and how they treated the employees, back to when they had holiday parties in their homes, and when John's wife designed our first logo. It's pretty special to still feel that so many years later, and even now that they're both gone.
Charles:
You've been in the job nearly two years right? At this point?
Heather Freeland
Yeah. Yep.
Charles:
How do you define success now that you've had a chance to get in and shape it?
Heather Freeland:
Yeah, I think there's kind of two dimensions of success for me, is one, you know, and I'll kind of… one on a more personal level and one on a, you know, more broader professional level and what I'm trying to accomplish in my role. But on a personal level, it's, have I gained the trust and respect of my colleagues and partners, and have I built a team that I feel is high performing, and delivering on what's possible for our brand? And, on the external perspective and what I'm delivering, I think, how am I continuing to elevate and tell the story of the Adobe brand and how that comes to life? And it's so funny because often when you come in into a leadership position in a company, particularly in a brand one, the joke is, oh, everyone's going to do a brand redesign, you know, the second they step into a new role or try and rethink it.
But I think one of the things that's been really important for me is given the evolution of our products, how our products work together and with one another, the evolution of the audiences and who's possible to use our products. Given some of the advent of Generative AI, for me, it's been about how do we have the brand keep pace with all of those changes? And represent an evolved way of thinking about what Adobe stands for and what's possible across our products? You know, we had previously not really focused on the Adobe brand as much. We focused on Photoshop or Acrobat or what have you. And now that all these products are increasingly integrated, now that individuals can use all of those products, we need to be thinking about the Adobe brand, and what that means, what that stands for, how that shows up. And that's been a big part of the journey that I've been on for the last, almost two years. And for me, success will be when the world starts feeling that, and really understanding the… what Adobe stands for and its relevance to them and their lives.
Charles:
That’s such an interesting evolution of where the company is. And I had honestly not thought about it through that lens, but it makes so much sense. And we are really moving from an era of being focused on tools. I mean, Photoshop is sort of the standard reference point about, right, you talked about it earlier. And I've had other people say, well, when Photoshop came along, and it's sort of like that. My response to them is that this is not like that, because AI has agency and none of the tools we had before did. And I don't think you're suggesting that. But I'm struck by the realization that you have to become a brand that is able to help people express themselves, rather than worrying about the specific tool by which they do that, for obvious reasons.
Who knows which of these tools will be necessary in an hour or a week from now, right? I mean, they, it's just extraordinary. Given all of that, given the complexity of all of that and the speed of all of that, there's an emotional dynamic to this, I assume, because the dramatic, I mean, it feels, from my perspective anyway, the dramatic evolution of AI. Which I wasn't thinking about AI in mid February, and suddenly, by the end of February, I was. There's an existential threat that represents to a company like Adobe if you get it wrong, right? If you'd sat around and waited, even perhaps for six more months, you might've been irrelevant. I mean, maybe a year. It could've happened very, very fast. How do you deal with the emotional dynamic of recognizing, gosh, this is happening really quickly and it is fundamental, it's going to fundamentally change who we are. And we're a 42-year-old company, and we need to very quickly become a different kind of company. We need to be perceived differently, we need to be part of this and not fight it. How have you handled the emotional dynamic of that? Because that's a thing.
Heather Freeland:
Absolutely. Well, I mean, there's multiple layers to that. There's the, what does this mean for the evolution of our products? It's, what does this mean to the evolution of our relationship with our community? And, what does this mean internally, in terms of how we're making decisions and policies, frankly, for how we incorporate this? And, you know, for us, we're an incredibly customer driven company where we have to think about our community first. I think one of the things that I love most is how strong the community is around each of our products and how passionate they are. And so we've had to really make sure that all the decisions we're making around the products, around the policies, are about our community first. And it's why we started out by building Firefly, our first Generative AI model based on both training only on content that we have the rights to use, to compensating those who we train their content on, because they're part of our community.
And making sure that we are standing up different policies. Like, we founded the Content Authenticity Initiative so that we could make sure that there were standards. That people could know that a piece of content had had Generative AI as a part of its creation process. And to make sure that we can add content credentials. And making sure that people's work is protected as a part of that. But all of that is grounded in, how do we look after our community, and how we can help support them. And, you know, at its core, and this, you know, goes back throughout this conversation, creativity is uniquely human, right? And I think one of the things that we're seeing is that when you can take a mundane task out of the way, and clear the way for people to be more creative, to focus on that big idea, that's when I think we're going to see this continued renaissance of creativity. Just as when the printing press started, and literally that started the Renaissance. And, so I think we've got to make sure that as we make decisions about our people, our processes, our products, our policies, that we are looking after human creativity first and foremost, and giving light to that.
Charles:
Do you think there will always be a line between creativity as you and I understand it, from a human standpoint, and what AI can create? Will we always be able to tell on some level, whether physically or instinctively, this comes from a human being, this comes from a machine?
Heather Freeland:
Yeah, I mean, it's interesting. One of the conversations we've been having a lot lately is around the concept of taste. So, taste is very hard to train, is very hard to quantify. And as we look to do more experimentation in our own marketing around generating images with Generative AI, one of the things that comes back is, but is that good? And doesn't mean that just because you can do it, that it's good. And one of the things that we're seeing in our own teams is one, it's hard to teach taste. And that's why we always believe that a human should always be in the mix. As we think about creative internally, and as we talk to our customers, as well, we think it's an important part of the equation. And I think it's also an important part to make sure there's some degree of checks and balances in the system, which I think is particularly important right now, given where technology is.
Charles:
Do you feel like you are skating to where the puck is going? I mean, is that part of the dynamic in the situation? Because you've got to become a different kind of business, because it's moving so quickly?
Heather Freeland:
Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean about a year ago I heard a panel of venture capitalists speak on AI, and they said one of the most important things to think about is speed. And you touched on it a little bit earlier in your question. The things that can happen in a few months are different than things that can happen in a few years before. And so the companies that will be left behind are the ones that move on board. You know, there's an adage that I keep hearing, which is the people who, or companies that will not succeed are the ones that don't at least adapt to understand what this can mean for them. And so I think what we're starting to see now is this really important moment where you do need to see around corners.
You need to think about not just, okay, what are these capabilities going to mean for me for the next campaign I'm working on, but what are they going to mean potentially in the next few years? Which at this rate things are moving, is virtually impossible to do, right? Like, I think it's going to be super hard for any of us to imagine. But I think one of the things that I'm focused on a lot right now is change management in my team. And how do you set up an organization that is flexible, that is agile, that can adapt, that can learn, that can have that growth mindset so that you can evolve to where the world is going? Because none of us are going to be able to know what that's going to look like in a few years from now. So we as leaders need to do more to build these kind of ever-evolving teams that can adapt.
Charles:
It must feel like you're operating at two speeds, one internally to create the trend of trust you talked about earlier, and two, the external speed with which you're having to meet this moment and race it to the future, essentially. Is that accurate?
Heather Freeland:
Absolutely. Absolutely. And you know, I think our teams are working incredibly hard right now to both deliver on what we have now. But also, you know, I have the unique privilege of… we joke about my team being customer zero. Because leading the creative team at Adobe, we're not just doing the marketing for Adobe, but we are the first ones testing out our products that we will ultimately launch to the world. Which is, as I said, an incredible privilege to be on the front lines of touching and feeling and using these products and what they're capable of and pushing the limits where we can. And feeding that back into the product teams. And, you know, my Chief Creative Director just came up with this whole vision for what, he is a creative leader and what his team would want ultimately in a world of Generative AI. And so we do need to operate 10 steps down the road and be thinking that way to help inform and inspire our product teams to be building in that direction as well. So it is definitely operating on multiple dimensions right now.
Charles:
I've talked to a lot of people recently about the creator economy and how Generative AI is changing the nature of how brands show up in the world, because so many people can now, to your point, both create images, content that are reflective of their version of the brand. And it's, you can't tell the difference anymore. I'm sure you saw that Volvo spot that showed up a couple of weeks ago. So you don't know who's actually authorized what anymore. And then you also, I'm assuming, want to give people permission to be able to take your brand and personalize it in some respects, while maintaining brand integrity. How do you define the lines in which it's okay for, go this far, but we need to control it here? How do you deal with that?
Heather Freeland:
Yeah, I mean, we're literally working on this very topic as we speak. One of the things we've been working on is building a stronger brand identity, because you can train models more easily on that. You can train models to help understand what's on brand, what's not, more easily on that. And so you have to think about it from the core of kind of the bones of your brand, and overlay the technology and what's possible with that. But then I think we're at this moment where we're actively upskilling and training our teams to think new ways. Like, how do you generate a prompt to create an image where the output is more likely to be on brand than not, right?
We've built custom models for our brand, but also, you know, how do we make sure that team members or even non creatives and marketers can generate things that are more on brand. And so we're working to document all this so we can share it with the world, too, and help other marketers and others kind of learn to use them. But I think it's really important for us to look at it both kind of on the foundational elements of the brand, on the human piece of the equation, and then on the tools and ingredients you give them to be successful in building that brand. Even as we're enabling more and more people to build brand content internally, we still have that human in the mix, because I think, the power of a brand is never more important than right now, and how that shows up consistently, and you need to make sure you're walking that fine line in terms of the brand integrity.
Charles:
Yeah. Such a moment. Tiffany Rolfe, who runs R/GA, has been talking about “Listening Brands” and how brands now have the ability to listen, not just sort of one dimensionally, but to really understand deeply how consumers are responding. And to your point earlier, I think the fact that you are so consumer driven is… that seems to me to be the place where any brand that's going to be successful has to begin and end.
Heather Freeland:
Absolutely. Absolutely.
Charles:
Last question for you. As you look at the future, what are you hopeful for? What are you optimistic about?
Heather Freeland:
I mean, I think we are just scratching the surface on this new explosion in human creativity. And it seems strange to quantify that with the word “human,” but I think just as you spoke about, you know, discovering your own limits of what might be possible in your imagination, I think once we have that time and that space that's freed up from technology taking a lot of those mundane tasks off of us, I think we're just going to see this explosion in big, incredible, beautiful ideas out in the world that I think we're all going to relish. And when I move to Europe and take that two week vacation, I'll really be able to enjoy it. (Laughs)
Charles:
I really want to thank you for joining me today. I think your calm, human approach to this is such a reference point for so many people, and I appreciate you coming on and sharing so openly.
Heather Freeland:
Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. This has been fun.
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Frances Harlow is the show’s Executive Producer. Josh Suhy is our Editor. Sarah Pardoe is the show’s Producer.
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