Jon Cook of VML
What lessons have you learned?
"FEARLESS CREATIVE LEADERSHIP" PODCAST - TRANSCRIPT
Episode 265: Jon Cook
Here's a question. What lessons have you learned?
I'm Charles Day. I believe that leadership offers us the greatest opportunity of our lives, to make a difference. I'm asked to help leaders discover what they're capable of, and then to maximize their impact. Welcome to the intersection of strategy and humanity.
This episode features the return visit of Jon Cook, the Global CEO of VML. I interviewed Jon for the first time a year ago, eight months after he had died while going for a run in his neighborhood.
Today, he is the CEO of the world's largest advertising agency. We covered a lot of topics during our latest conversation, from the qualities that he brings as a leader, to navigating mergers, to the impact of AI. We also talked about a simple but powerful truth that I think a lot of leaders have a hard time remembering when they're facing stressful situations - that we are already better than we think.
“There is a difference in me, which is understanding the confidence of the timeline of what to expect, and in a merger, by when. I'm one of the few people on the planet that had the gift of a big agency merger from five years ago. It was the biggest at the time. My gift back to myself is, “Remember? It works, John.” I think people forget to give themselves that little gift. If you've been through it, why not use it and calm yourself with that gift?”
Leadership is lonely. It's a cliche because it's true. Those feelings of isolation usually leave our doubts and insecurities to wander through the garden of our minds, unchaperoned.
Given enough time and enough space, those insecurities can become a permanent part of our self-image and self-beliefs.
Talking to someone who can help us to fully see ourselves is always helpful. Of course, I'd say that. I'm a leadership coach. But we have ways to help ourselves that can be powerful, too.
One of the simplest is to look back and to see our past achievements for what they are. Achievements, experiences, skills, and wisdom.
And if you take a few moments and you write that list of achievements down, you'll be better prepared, not only to meet this moment, but you'll also be able to quiet the part of you that thinks that nothing you do is ever good enough.
Self-awareness is the most powerful asset that any leader can develop. So, make that list right now.
Here's Jon Cook.
Charles (02:39):
Jon, welcome back to Fearless. Thank you so much for coming back on the show.
Jon Cook (02:42):
Thanks. Thanks for having me, Charles.
Charles (02:44):
Here we are back in the Majestic lobby on a, apparently this is an annual tradition we've now established.
Jon Cook (02:47):
It's our spot.
Charles (02:48):
Our spot, right? I think it's almost the same chair. How are you?
Jon Cook (02:52):
I'm good. It's been a good week so far. We'll see, we're midweek, and I'm like anybody where Cannes is going great, but I can't help but not say I'm daydreaming about my flight home already (laugh), but it's going well.
Charles (03:05):
And how are you overall? We talked last year about the extraordinarily traumatic event that had happened to you and your survival of it. Now, how has that landed a year later?
Jon Cook (03:13):
Yeah, thank you for asking. I'm doing really well, like health wise is just great, great, great. Back to full exercise and everything. We, you and I talked a lot about the mental aspect. Mental aspect is great. Yeah, everything's processed. A couple months ago, I had the American Heart Association, had a big hundred year anniversary thing in Kansas City where I live, and asked me to be the Survivor of the Year or something. It's a weird thing and nobody really wants to be (laugh), but, you know--
Charles (03:36):
Better than the old set. Right, exactly.
Jon Cook (03:38):
It's better [inaudible] Person Who Died of the Year, either. So that was about a year off the incident, and it was a good chance to really get to what was important about it, which was putting the focus on these people that were there to give CPR to me. And so I really focused my time to talk, and got to feature some things, and really, really let me think about just the coincidences and the humanity of some people being there at the right… Not just being there for me. I mean, not just being at the spot, but having the courage to use CPR. You know, that's, they did that and I'm here for it. So it was a good chance to celebrate that.
Charles (04:13):
I watched that video and there was a lovely moment where the woman who performed CPR on you initially, when you came to, said that, she's, the first thing she said was, “You and I have been making out for the last four minutes,” (laugh) which I thought was an amazingly human way to kind of calm you down. Did it calm you? How did you receive that?
Jon Cook (04:29):
It was literally the first words I heard when I woke up from being dead, so to speak, is, yeah, is her saying that. And I, it calmed me later, at such a… it confused me a little bit at the time. Like, what? Because I had no idea.
Charles (04:41):
I just went for a run. What are we doing?
Jon Cook (04:43):
Yeah, I went for a run. Why are we making out? I thought I was married, and still married. But yeah, it was… I remember that. It was good. It was funny. Thing about that is, as part of my CPR, there was a lot of breaths, like mouth-to-mouth breaths. The American Heart Association, this is not necessarily funny, but when I was giving my comments there, they really wanted me to focus on chest CPR, because they're trying to work away from mouth-to-mouth CPR, there's so many issues with that. And you can do it all with a chest. And I said, not, I can't work around it. That's how I am here, is breath to breath. So, yeah.
Charles (05:15):
And the other big thing that's happened to you since we last spoke is you are now the CEO of the world's largest ad agency.
Jon Cook (05:21):
Yeah. There's been a lot since we talked, but yeah.
Charles (05:24):
Are you conscious of that reference point? Is that, does that matter to you?
Jon Cook (05:27):
I am because so many people tell me that, you know, by the measurables. It's, on one hand, yeah, very conscious of it, because we put a lot of work into merging Wunderman Thompson and VMLY&R. I mean, first of all, just, I love having it called VML because it's just so easy to say. We've been dealing with long names for too long and I obviously have a little bias because I was, I've been at VML for 28 years, so it's kind of coming back to that name. But honestly, to your question, I do think about it. I think about it as a responsibility to have a voice in our industry to… which I like to use. We're not trying to be a big agency, but as long as we are, we might as well use it for something, you know. We can put a lot of great work in the world. We can hire great people. I do think about it.
But then again, on the flip side of it, I'm just the same person that I was when I talked to you last. I honestly just operate with this theory that, you know, every time you get a new, bigger job, like I did in this case, you say, “Am I the right person for it?” And I remember talking to Mark Read about this and saying, I think I am, because as long as the right person is me being the same person I was yesterday, because that works (laugh). And that's all I know. And it has worked. It's going really well.
Charles (06:36):
What are the qualities you think you bring?
Jon Cook (06:40):
You know, I mean I think I'm really good at all… I mean, I know I'm good at all the, the basics of being an advertising agency CEO, having passion for our industry, loving the work, love being with clients, I love new business, all those things. But I'm also put a big premium on celebrating people, on thanking people, on communicating. And I think some people think those are the softer things that are, those are the anti for some. They just say, “Of course you’ve got to do that,” but they don't really live that. I really think about it a lot. I think about things like that. I think about if I'm walking down the hall, and if you know somebody's name, to use it, say, “Hi Charles,” instead of, “Hey buddy,” you know, “Hey buddy.”
Charles (07:27):
“It’s good to see you.”
Jon Cook (07:28):
“Good to see you, Champ.” Nobody wants that. I don't want people calling me Champ.
Charles (07:31):
Unless their name happens to be Champ, right?
Jon Cook (07:33):
We did have that rare case. Yeah, Champ loves it. (Laugh) But no, I think about that a lot.
Charles (07:40):
Mergers are tough on people, right? They're really, they're really difficult. One of your leaders, Tom Tearle, who runs Australia and New Zealand, was recently featured in an article, which they focus on the fact, I think he's been through 10 of them in his agency career. Not simply at VML.
Jon Cook (07:55):
Although I'm probably responsible for a couple of his.
Charles (07:56):
I think a few. I think a few, Jon. I don't think he holds it against you either way. So (laugh), but how do you navigate the human impact of all of that?
Jon Cook (08:05):
There's a lot to it. You know, the ultimate dream, and I may have mentioned this last time we talked, because it's something I’m consistent about, is if we're going to get bigger, nobody should feel smaller. And that's really easy to say. And it's so satisfying when you pay that off. When, because we're a bigger company, somebody gets a bigger role, or they find their self stepping up into something bigger. But there's flip side too, because there is a reality that sometimes it takes a while for somebody to feel bigger in a new organization, somebody can feel lost. It's just inevitable. And so, probably spending a lot of time on those people, those friends that may feel a little, not lost, but just naturally, if the world gets bigger and you're doing the exact same thing, just by the math, you're doing something smaller.
And so it's really working with every, every leader, every person through to that point, to be bigger in the new organization. And I do think it's a combination. The company has to, there's bigger roles created, there's more to do, but it's on the, you know, creating a forum where individuals feel the comfort of asking for more, or stepping into something new about themselves. That's what, that's really what we're focused on, and on the people aspect of this.
And there's, you know, to be really candid, you take two companies of relatively equal size, there's a ton of situations where two people were doing the exact same thing. And then you have a choice. You know, we are either going to have two people co-do that role in the future. And that's a whole set of dynamics of working through that. And that's a legit thing because it's a bigger company.
Maybe two people do need to be the Chief Creative Officer of so and so place. Second thing is, one person continues to do that role in a bigger way, and then the other person does a new role. Maybe there's something better for that person. And then there's the other thing, where it says, maybe, maybe it's not, maybe the company's not the right spot for one of the two, and to have some hard conversations, or sometimes easy conversations if that person wasn't the right. But that, the dynamic spread between those three scenarios has taken, there's thousands of hours right there of work in the last six months.
Charles (10:04):
Has anything about this been different than you thought it was going to be? Either harder or easier, better or worse?
Jon Cook (10:10):
Honestly, not really. I mean it's, I knew what to expect. I wish I could say, why I feel like I knew what to expect. And I, well, I'll tell you something different from when we merged in 2018 VML and YR and VMLY&R. There is a difference in me, which is understanding the confidence of the timeline of what to expect in a merger by when. I'm one of the few people on the planet that had the gift of a big agency merger from five years ago. It was the biggest at the time. My gift back to myself is, “Remember? It works, Jon.” I think people forget to give themselves that little gift. If you've been through it, why not use it and calm yourself with that gift?
Charles (10:48):
It's such an interesting reference point because I was talking to somebody yesterday about, oh, it's a name drop. He's going to be on the podcast. John Hegarty, I interviewed John yesterday. And he was talking about the fact that some people, he used to think when he was a younger creative person, that essentially creative ideation was a zero sum game. That he had 500 in his mind to give. And if he came up with one and the client wouldn't buy it, he went crazy, because he was like, this is one of… It's over time, he had to learn that and know, in fact, I can rely on myself to come up with brilliant ideas over and over again. And this is a, this is your version of that, right? Which is--
Jon Cook (11:22):
I love that parallel. I'm glad you said that. Yeah, I love that, by the way (laugh).
Charles (11:26):
We talked a little bit last year about how your health reality had changed you and not. Have you felt any other differences emerging in terms of how you live your life and the things that you bring? You were pretty clear about a lot of that stuff last year. I just wondered with more time to reflect--
Jon Cook (11:40):
Yeah. The things you'd expect in terms of just being more appreciative of everything you have, which I know is a cliche. I hate to even say it because it's like, of course, but it's so true. The difference might be, now we've gone, you know, some, a year and a half or two from my incident, my cardiac incident, and I'm glad that I still feel that way. Because I was, back then, when we talked last year, I was worried that would wear off. It hasn't, you know. So that, maybe it's even intensified. It would, it's the same reaction, which is a, cherish everything in your life, the people, the relationships. Make sure you're always at a good point in your relationships. It's just, I'm so happy right now that that feeling has stayed with me. It's not a fleeting thing that lasts a short amount of time. I mean, so I'm starting to think now that's going to be a perspective I have my whole life.
Charles (12:28):
Do you have any lingering fear, any lingering trauma?
Jon Cook (12:30):
Not really. I do, because what happened to me, this cardiac thing was sudden and unrelated to any warning I had. Yeah, I do, I do. Every now and then, I'll be exercising and think I'm going to pop, you know, but they have no sign of that. But because, I think because mine was so unusual that it wasn't a an outcome of some health condition I knew I had, there's nothing inevitable about it. I just, it just happened out of the, and when that, that's a little unsettling, that what happened to me came months after a physical that was perfect, relatively perfect. And so it never, maybe I'm never too comfortable now because, you know, of that.
Charles (13:10):
I mean, it's such a cliche to live every day as though it's your last. But I would imagine that you're much closer to that than most of us.
Jon Cook (13:16):
It's, you start to realize why the cliches are real. That's exactly right. It's… couldn't say it better.
Charles (13:21):
It’s a cliche because it's true.
We would be remiss if we didn't talk about AI, right? It's all over this week, as it needs to be. I just walked out of listening to Elon Musk being interviewed by your holding company CEO Mark Read. For me, the headline from that conversation was, Mark asked him, “Can AI be creative?” Which has been a dividing line that a lot of people that I've talked to over the last few weeks about this have held, and said, “It will never be able to do this.” Elon Musk says, it can, it will be. It can be original and creative. And Mark asked him, “Where does that leave us?” And Elon said, there's an 80% chance it'll, we all be great, because we will be taken care of. We will have abundance. We will want for nothing. Nobody will be hungry or uneducated, but AI will do everything, and work will be optional, and even if you work, AI will be able to do whatever you can do better than you. How do you feel about that, first on a human level?
Jon Cook (14:15):
Yeah. It was funny, when you say 80%, when Elon said 80% chance it works out, the logical questions, whether it's that 20% or robots take over the world and, you know, we're living in a movie. But yeah, on creativity, I do agree that it will be creative, it will be capable of, and is capable of original thought. But that doesn't put any fear into me as somebody who runs a creative organization. Maybe it should, but it doesn't, because I think as much room as there is for AI to be creative, and we're seeing just so much usage right now of AI to help express creative better, or get to ideas faster, or get ideas in the market sooner, or get them, honestly in our business sold.
For example, did a pitch with Krispy Kreme Donuts (laugh), and great, great people. And we had the original idea of all these Halloween promotions, original human thought, great ideas, great understanding of the audience, trying to sell donuts for Halloween. But AI helped us, something we wouldn't have done before is just to be able to paper the room in a new business meeting with what the donuts might look like, the Halloween-themed donuts for the next couple years. And you know, that would've taken a human being forever. But the room was beautiful with, you know, Halloween-themed donuts. This is maybe a dumb example, but it is--
Charles (15:32):
But a real world one.
Jon Cook (15:33):
Real, real example of AI, in that case, helping make us as an agency look more aggressive, help us take a an original human idea and express it. And here we are working with Krispy Kreme, we're doing that kind of work. It's, that's real. That's right now.
And now, AI didn't have the original thought. AI didn't present it for us, you know, and I think we'll never replace the idea of… the fun thing about our business selling in an idea, why an idea works, then the human being that has to say, “I have the bold courage to take that idea and put it out in the world.” Humans have to do that. And I think that's why I don't have fear of AI being creative, so to speak. Actually, it's more excitement than fear.
Charles (16:14):
WPP, I think ahead of the game. I had an email from a former client of mine, Adam Tucker, who runs Mondelez for WPP. And he said, there's a lot of conversation in this series that I've been doing over the last few weeks, on how it will change the process. He said, and no, no conversation about how the work can be different and is different when you embed AI into the idea itself. And he cited two different case studies, both for Cadbury's as examples of that. And we talked about how AI is changing the way that WPP can work and its commitment. And he made the point really succinctly, which I think many people have not been clear about.
He said, we have access to all the same tools, but we have them in an ecosystem that is completely safe from a client standpoint. And so we can actually not only conceive with using AI, but we can actually deliver the output. There is nothing else out there that can do that. Other agencies, other companies can use AI to conceptual. But somebody still has to make that stuff in a way that is legal and legitimate and trademark appropriate.
Jon Cook (17:15):
Yeah.
Charles (17:16):
Can you just give me from your perspective as a company inside that, with access to that, how is that changing the way that you work, and how is it changing the kind of work that you're doing?
Jon Cook (17:27):
Yeah. What Adam's talking about is dead on. The big thing we have at WPP right now is the ability to take proprietary information, keep it in a walled garden, and have it get smarter next to everything that that's public. So if you're just using general tools out there, you're not able to build from the proprietary knowledge. So you're working with Ford, Ford Motor Company, a big WPP client, big VML client. If I have a big automotive launch of a new vehicle next year, all the proprietary stuff that the world can't see, that we have access to as their agency partner can be in a walled garden, not just sitting there. And there's some value in just having it protected and available, but not just available, but every piece of information that's proprietary can build on itself. Creative teams can go back and forth with that information, make themselves smarter, get smarter.
Creative briefs can come out of that that are based on, like, for example, you could take a proprietary brief for a new vehicle, in 25 seconds, upload that into WPP Open, it reads the entire document, proprietary document, comes back with, here's a one page creative brief of, how given the audience in that brief, and given what the goals are for this vehicle launch, here's the way we would approach that from a creative brief standpoint in two pages or one page or whatever length I wanted it.
So it's just the exact example. I couldn't get that on ChatGPT out in the free universe because it doesn't have access to proprietary stuff. So it's, you're effectively building a brain of, a client specific brain. It's like a human being that knows everything and can think, but it has access to everything that's proprietary. And that's powerful. That's that my example there is just tip of the iceberg.
Charles (19:09):
Who owns that brain?
Jon Cook (19:10):
As in the client brand. Yeah, yeah. Who owns it? That's a good question. In that case, the client owns that brain.
Charles (19:19):
Does the client own the information? Because the technology that it's stored in is yours, right?
Jon Cook (19:23):
Yeah. Yeah.
Charles (19:24):
I mean, I hadn't thought about that before, but I'm intrigued by this, more than intrigued by this, because, you know, you and I have been around this industry long enough to remember when agencies were really revered and valued for their connection, to their understanding of, their interpretation of, their protection of the brand. We've moved away from that, where the thing became much more transactional. It started at the time when the industry financial model shifted to selling creative expertise by the hour. And it became a procurement driven business.
My proposition to everybody I've talked to has been, is this an opportunity for the industry to radically reform, change the compensation model, so that we actually get paid for, you guys get paid for the original thinking? But I hadn't added in the question about, when you guys have built this capability, so yes, you're absorbing client information, but in fact the technology is yours. So the argument or the conversation about who owns this, so it's going to create stickier relationships, right?
Jon Cook (20:18):
Oh yeah. It's already, it's stickier in terms of more together. Yeah. Because our commercial terms on these, on those tools and many others we haven't even talked about are, you know, that will augment the hour-for-hour staff model that we have, because that is replacing some human beings. So there needs to be a value on that. And it's actually, you know, more efficient than a lot of things. So yeah. We're, we have commercial terms with each of our clients.
Charles (20:42):
I mean, it's doing things that no human being could do. Already, today.
Jon Cook (20:46):
So we should price it unlike anybody, because obviously, we can't price that for the 10 seconds it took. We have to, commercial terms have to be cognizant of the massive amount of technology that allowed that to happen. And the forum we give to, and the human beings we use to prompt it, and so, yeah.
Charles (21:03):
And the value that it creates for the client.
Jon Cook (21:05):
The value, exactly.
Charles (21:06):
Ultimately, right? I mean, that's where the best value, where the best proposition sits.
Jon Cook (21:08):
It's different than, I think, for agencies for forever have talked about, i I have an idea that changes your brand for the next 20 years, shouldn't I the agency get paid more than just the hours it took to create that? This is going to be the new version of that argument.
Charles (21:22):
Are you already having those conversations?
Jon Cook (21:23):
Yes. Yeah.
Charles (21:24):
You have to be, right?
Jon Cook (21:25):
Yeah. It's exciting because agencies have never cracked the value proposition question for their worth. And before AI got as big, you were kind of fighting with procurement departments about low cost production. And so the agency then has to make enough commercially on the high value part of their work, so to speak. This thing comes right in the middle of that conversation right now in a big way. And so it's perfect timing because it actually is major clear value to the outputs of AI. And it'll make those value proposition arguments easier for an agency.
Charles (21:57):
I was talking to an agency about this and they said, they recognize that the senior people are really valuable because they have the relationships, which I think is an interesting unspoken part of this equation. They have the ability to generate extraordinary ideas. They will need some junior people because there is still some amount of process. And they said the concern that they had was the middle. And have you considered that? Has that become part of the, kind of the thought process?
Jon Cook (22:21):
I think not in those terms. First of all, I always laugh about the middle, because I always wonder, if you're the middle, do you know you're the middle? Or do you think, you know, it's all a relative term. Maybe I'm the middle of some bigger universe. You know, it's like, even if you have this fancy title, you're in the middle of something, you know? I know there's somebody above me and there's somebody not, you know. Anyway, so anyway, but kidding aside--
Charles (22:39):
It's a good reference point.
Jon Cook (22:40):
Yeah, it's a relative term of who's in the middle. But no, I think the middle, as you call it, has to, is reinventing as fast as anything. I'd say re-imagination of the middle. I mean, and I actually now, as we talk about it, I hope it kind of eliminates the term “middle”. Because, you know, “middle manager”, it's like, who wants to be that, you know? I hope this is a chance to reinvent the bureaucracy that people make fun of and that, and they give them more power in there, and--
Charles (23:01):
Will you ultimately need fewer people?
Jon Cook (23:03):
Yeah, I think that's true. It is. I mean, I think people like to say, “Oh no, there'll be no impact.” And it's like saying there's no efficiency that can be created in a merger. Of course there can be, it would be a bad business person if you can't create a little efficiency. Of course, AI will. But as I say that, I don't think it's a fearful situation, we're going to lay off half of our people by any means. I think it's more people will be added. There's many new roles will emerge as roles that go away. But yeah, I think there, there will be--
Charles (23:30):
Somebody said, there's a line floating around that AI won't take away your job. People who know how to use AI will take away your job. That's probably true.
Jon Cook (23:37):
I don't think AI is going to eliminate a certain level of the company, the top, the middle, the bottom. It's just going to, I just, I believe, this is an agency specifically, but any company has a certain amount of people who are going through the motions, who are not motivated, who, you know, just want the paycheck. It's not a referendum of any one person or any, it's not an agency, it's just a fact, that there's--
Charles (23:58):
It's human nature, right?
Jon Cook (23:59):
Just human nature. I think, I guess I hope if there's going to be elimination, it's eliminating that sector. Not a certain junior part. Not a middle, not a top. Let's eliminate the people who aren't doing anything, that are just getting a paycheck and--
Charles (24:12):
And who are not very happy themselves, right?
Jon Cook (24:14):
They're not happy themselves. AI will do us all a favor. And I do think the focus a lot of people have is on, will it be the middle? Will it be these jobs? It's no certain job. It's no certain level. It is about, let's eliminate the people who are just mailing it in. I think anybody who runs a business, anybody who's in a business would want that layer gone. That's not even a layer. That permeates the entire company. And hopefully AI can do something about that.
Charles (24:38):
If you were starting a creatively oriented business today, what would you start and what would you definitely not start?
Jon Cook (24:44):
Yeah, that's a great question. I like that. What would I not start? I'm a big fan of the long-term marketing fundamentals. And I would rather be the company that understands audiences, the ideas to reach audiences, and then be, have a company that's able to use technology as it comes. Obviously, I could have a big AI startup that (laugh), you know, it would, right now that's a hot, hot thing.
But in the course of time, I'm just built to be somebody who loves to harness those things, because I love the fundamentals of it. You're asking me, the human being? That's what I love. Stuff that I learned in college, I'm using right now. Had nothing to do with AI, nothing to do with the Metaverse, nothing to do with the internet, nothing to do with mobility, mobile phones. But all those things, I've used what I learned in college throughout these years, and that's what I'd keep doing.
Charles (25:31):
Anything you would not start? Somebody said to me, we're just going to take media on onboard ourselves. We're going to build our own media capability. Why would we not? Right? AI eats data for breakfast, media's data. Why would we not do that ourselves? Could you see that becoming an area of vulnerability for the industry?
Jon Cook (25:46):
No, I think that'll be just as powerful in the future. I think there's a lot of layers between media buying and the brands that might go away. I love the idea… people say, agencies, you should be fearful of creators getting more powerful and going right to brands. I don't think good agencies fear that, honestly.
I did a lot of things this week with Keenan Thompson from Saturday Night Live. We did a big panel on humor yesterday. And, you know, he's a creator, wants to work with a lot of the brands that we work with, and he should, because he's fantastic. I didn't have one ounce of, oh wait a minute, is Keenan Thompson's going to go directly to our clients and create with them? Because I'm just a big believer in the context we provide, the value we provide, even a great creator like him. So I never, there are agencies that fear that, thatdirect relationship.
Charles (26:30):
As you look at the future, what are you hopeful for?
Jon Cook (26:34):
I love where our industry is right now. This particular week. I think creativity's an all-time high. And it just, the work is amazing this week, our own VML work, the work I see all over the industry. I hope we take a step back and realize that, how good this work is, because everybody's in a wonderment about AI.
AI's been here and the work is getting better. (Laugh) It's all these fears, you’ve got to take the macro picture. Every year at Cannes, there's a big doomsday scenario that people are talking about, a topic that's so foreboding, it'll be at the end of advertising as we know it.
You've been at, how many can you told me? 21. I've been here 15. Every year, we've probably both been here, there's been topics about the death of creativity, and here we are, some of the best work we've ever seen. I'm hopeful that continues. And I think AI is only going to help that. I have no fear of that.
Charles (27:23):
What are you afraid of? As you look at the future?
Jon Cook (27:24):
I mean, I don't operate with much fear. I mean, I honestly, my fear is, I get up in the middle of the night about my own fear is like, this isn't a sexy, apocalyptic fear. This is just, I think we have an awesome agency. I live and breathe everything we do, and it just kills me if I know that we have any client at that moment that's not seeing that full thing. And it's just the, I just care so much about, like, what we do, and how much work goes into having this capability. And it just, I'm up at night if we're not, if somebody doesn't know we do that or we're not delivering that right. That, I don’t know, I should probably have a bigger fear in life, (laugh) but it's honestly what I think about, you know, a lot. Because I just, I love our company, and I love what we do and just, you know, I get my biggest highs come from delivering that.
Charles (28:16):
It's really good to see you again, and to see you doing so well. Thanks so much for coming back on the show.
Jon Cook (28:20):
Thanks, Charles. Good to see you.
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Frances Harlow is the show’s Executive Producer. Josh Suhy is our Editor. Sarah Pardoe is the show’s Producer.
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